Le sigh, is it just me or do discussions on ATEG's listserv devolve into personal battles more quickly than elsewhere? What is it about grammar and pedagogy that seems so, I don't know, personal?
I don't approach discussion here ever trying to justify hypotheticals. I'm less interested in how things should work and more interested in how they actually do work. I'm sorry if I sounded pie in the skyish.
I, too, have expertise in the area of secondary education, language arts pedagogy, applied linguistics, and curriculum design. I teach high school students, and I love it. I teach college students from time to time (I used to teach undergraduates extensively). When I voice my opinion, it's just that. It's my opinion and a statement on what actions I would take.
I, of course, wouldn't use the same language with my students that I use with you or anyone else on this list. While I do teach metalanguage in my classroom, I don't rely on it when teaching concepts. "Plain-speak" is what I use as well; however, my plain speak for subordination, coordination, and other embedding features of language would not be "change up sentence starts." I prefer in my classroom to focus on the verb string and move out from there, viewing the verb as the nucleus of any clause (and by extension, sentence) and the element that has the greatest impact on meaning.
I believe that focusing on structural variation in sentence-initial position is one of the very last things that will help struggling writers to improve their writing. I believe that it can produce unnecessarily complex sentences. That's just my opinion though. Considering that you don't know me, my students, or my results, it doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. That's the nature of informal, online, listserv discussions, and I'm fine with that.
We disagree on this point. No big deal. Please don't take that to mean that I think you're a bad teacher; in fact, you care way too much about this to be anything but a good teacher.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
John, you have actually made my point.You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice."If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up their sentence starts.Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix the core problem.I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts with what I have experienced.On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the structure).
I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me) quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core problems and would likely produce confusing sentences (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is what teachers want.
John Alexander
Austin, TexasOn Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her sentence starts?Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He realizes that she doesn’t have that much longer.On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:Susan,I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solidunderstanding of how language works. If we tell students that varyingsentence openings (using something other than the subject as opening)isa goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of thosevariations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that studentssometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in arow. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quiteoften. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which startsevery sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie Silko'smuch anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority ofthe sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and copieda passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how heeffectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for longstretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing withmature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and repeatingsentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.There are good reasons for this. If you look at information flow in atext (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost alwayslast. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually thesubject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The openingestablishes connection with what went before. One obvious way toaccomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit repetitionfor these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much tooquickly.The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of differentstructures can act as the subject of a sentence and students shouldhave those available as resources. I believe they should be used forcontinuity, though, not for variation.I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what kind ofvariation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. Avariation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject isanother. A variation of the kinds of structures that open sentences isanother.Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting that mostsentences will start with the subject and that when we have variationform that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simpleadverbials.As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is harmful toimply to students that good writers try to vary their sentenceopenings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them to seehow good writers use repetition, including a repetition of subjects, tobuild coherence into texts.I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good teachingpractices, not a personal criticism.CraigCraig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still believeit is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways tostart sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing upsentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea that Iwas requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought youwere dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I amnot enjoying myself.SusanOn May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:Susan,I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward a matureliteracy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should all beconstantly examining and refining our practices. We are far, far fromperfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our professionas a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if what weare doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you posted tothe list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings to keepfrom being boring, that advice became subject to the kind ofconversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at all to dowith whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad teacher. Wesimply need to be able to consider these approaches with an open mind.I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was neverintended to be personal.That being said, I would ask you to question seriously whether the"style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate. It says,first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50% of thetime. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly study. Thestudies refered to on list recently seem to show that a professionalwriter opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an average ofabout 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, thehighestabout 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the case,thenstudents already vary sentence openings more than mature writers. Iwould add that the writers in the study were successful, not boring.I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "RhetoricalGrammar" as amore linguistically sound source of advice.But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I apologize ifanything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as ateacher.As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully grounded,effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful of eachother as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failureson mypart to do that.CraigJean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style guides.I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writingNazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same starting wordin an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots moreoutrage, tar, and feathers!Sentence BeginningsVary the beginnings of your sentences.Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject—farmore than the number of sentences begun in any other way. Butoveruse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonouswriting. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of yoursentences.
WORDSTwo adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved tofight back.An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and clattering camefrom the heights around us.A connecting word: For students who have just survived thebrutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere is alltoo familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high school,find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just asimportant as a healthy mind.A series of words: Light, water, temperature, minerals—these affect the health of plants.PHRASES
A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding ofathletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For onething, it can be ruthless.A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all oftheir secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into thisexistence.An infinitive: To be really successful, you willhave to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise programis essential.A participle: Looking out of the window high overthe state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhousesurrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead surroundedby fields.An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission providesfood and shelter for Springfield's homeless.An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went on theattack.CLAUSES
An adverbial clause: When you first start writing—and I thinkit's true for a lot of beginning writers—you’re scared to death thatif you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never going toshow up again.An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a joiner oforganizations, found herself unanimously elected president of a groupof animal lovers.A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a questions toask a geologist.On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:Susan,This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the studentsHOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that youjust demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.What method do you use to teach the different possible variations?Jean Waldman----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"To: <[log in to unmask]>Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:21 PMSubject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctionsCraig, I just don't understand your logic. You were asked toevaluate two passages that contained the same content. The firsthadboring sentence starts and the second had variation. You admittedthe second had "more flexibility" but then concluded that it doesn'tmake it better and went on to speak for Ed that he couldn't possiblybelieve the varying sentence starts made it better.That struck me as arrogantly dismissive.Do you have any proof that teaching students how to vary theirsentence starts compromises their ability to write with coherence?It seems like such a stretch Varying a sentence start doesn'tforcestudents to vary the subject. If varying sentence starts doesn'tlead to incoherence, would you change your stance? Or do you haveother concerns as well.SusanOn May 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:
Susan,I'm sorry if I come across as arrogantly dismissive. I don'tmean tobe. I do believe that teaching students to vary sentenceopenings isnot a good idea, and I have given that a great deal of study andthought. I believe that the conventional advice to vary sentenceopenings is not based on close observation of how language works ineffective texts. I'm not sure why you would say those points areirrelevant. Asking students to vary sentence openings may have theeffect of pushing them further away from coherence--at best, adistraction from more relevant choices.Here's a opening passage--chosen in part because I alreadyhave it inan electronic file to copy from--from Leslie Silko's "Yellowwoman".It's a short story, so the sentence openings are more typical ofnarrative than of a more expository text, but the sentenceopenings arequite unremarkable, almost entirely pronouns. I hope we can basethediscussion on observations of effective writing, not on personalpreferences.
Yellow Woman (Leslie Silko)My thigh clung to his with dampness, and I watched the sunrising upthrough the tamaracks and willows. The small brown water birdscame tothe river and hopped across the mud, leaving brown scratches in thealkali-white crust. They bathed in the river silently. I could hearthe water, almost at our feet where the narrow fast channel bubbledand washed green ragged moss and fern leaves. I looked at himbesideme, rolled in the red blanket on the white river sand. I cleanedthesand out of the cracks between my toes, squinting because thesun wasabove the willow trees. I looked at him for the last time,sleeping onthe white river sand.I felt hungry and followed the river south the way we hadcome thenight before, following our footprints that were already blurred bylizard tracks and bug trails. The horses were still lying down, andthe black one whinnied when he saw me but he did not get up—maybe itwas because the corral was made out of thick cedar branches and thehorse had not yet felt the sun like I had. I tried to lookbeyond thepale red mesas to the pueblo. I knew it was there, even if I couldnot see it, on the sandrock hill above the river, the same riverthatmoved past me now and had reflected the moon last night.The horse felt warm underneath me. He shook his head and pawedthesand. The bay whinnied and leaned against the gate trying tofollow,and I remembered him asleep inside the red blanket beside theriver. Islid off the horse and tied him close to the other horse, I wakednorth with the river again, and the white sand broke loose infootprints over footprints.“Wake up.”He moved in the blanket and turned his face to me with hiseyes stillclosed. I knelt down to touch him.“I’m leaving.”He smiled now, eyes still closed. “You are coming with me,remember?”He sat up now with his bare dark chest and belly in the sun.“Where?”“To my place.”“And will I come back?”He pulled his pants on. I walked away from him, feeling himbehind meand smelling the willows.“Yellow woman,” he said.I turned to face him. “Who are you?” I asked.He laughed and knelt on the low, sandy bank, washing his facein theriver. “Last night you guessed my name, and you knew why I hadcome.”I stared past him at the shallow moving water and tried torememberthe night, but I could only see the moon in the water and rememberhis warmth around me.CraigCraigI sounded snarky in my last email. I'm sorry for that. But youreally are arrogantly dismissive of something I teach mystudents asa mini-lesson but do not require them to do in their essays. Ihaveseen better writing from them, and it is annoying to have suchstrongevidence be dismissed without much thought. I do think youhave notthought this through.SusanOn May 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:On May 20, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:You can certainly make the judgment that Ed's version shows moreflexibility on the part of the writer, but it doesn't make it abetter essay,Craig, it's clearly better. You offer no evidence for why it isworse or even equal. Own up, dude: It is clearly better, but,yes, it still sucks. Your tower is showing.The rest of your argument is irrelevant. You are preaching tothechoir. We do know what makes a good essay. We know that varyingsentence starts is not a panacea.To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html andselect "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterfaceat:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterfaceat:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's webinterface at:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfaceat:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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