Susan, John, et al.:

 

I have about the same reaction to this particular student’s writing as John does – the repetition of “he” is annoying from an aesthetic perspective, but there’s nothing wrong with it in terms of basic information flow – and the repetitiveness may simply be a reflex of a lack of clause-combination strategies. That isn’t quite the same as variation in sentence-openers. The following is an example rewrite that doesn’t change sentence openers much:

 

He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves falling, since he’s really started to notice it that she has become so sick that she has lost a lot of weight and that he had to support her because she could barely hold herself up.  He is not only realizing just her change in weight, but also  how much her leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of time.  He realizes that she doesn’t have that much longer.  

 

Now, I realize that the rest of you might not agree that that version sounds better – all I can do is go with my own judgments on this one. But if does sound better (not great, mind you, just better) to you, note that I didn’t add to the variety of sentence openers; I merely reduced the number of sentences. I did add a variety of connectors, but there’s a crucial difference in presenting this as “connection” rather than “sentence-starting.” Manipulating the connections changes the extent to which each clause is presented as foregrounded or backgrounded, and perhaps part of the sense of repetitiveness in the original comes from the combination of multiple instances of “he” all presented as equally topical.

 

This does not, of course, detract from Susan’s basic point that some students benefit from varying sentence openers (quibbling with one example does not address the general point). It does suggest that there are cases in which lack of sentence-opener variety is merely symptomatic of something else.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Bill Spruiell

Dept. of English

Central Michigan University

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2009 7:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions

 

I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the structure).

I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.

Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me) quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core problems and would likely produce confusing sentences (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is what teachers want.

John Alexander
Austin, Texas

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up Frost, Obama, and Silko.  We agree that purposeful repetition is the mark of a mature style.   You should now drop that out of your argument.  In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th when I acknowledged and refuted your point.  I said, "When I cover parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."

 

I am teaching students who do not have a mature style.  I went to school today to find you an example.  Do you or do you not agree that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her sentence starts?

 

Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had fallen in autumn."  He is comparing Jamie’s weight to leaves falling.  He has really started to notice it that she has become so sick that she has lost a lot of weight.   He had to support her because she could barely hold herself up.  He is not only realizing just her change in weight.  He sees how much her leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of time.  He realizes that she doesn’t have that much longer.  

 

On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:



Susan,

   I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid

understanding of how language works. If we tell students that varying

sentence openings (using something other than the subject as opening)is

a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those

variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.

    As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that students

sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a

row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite

often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which starts

every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie Silko's

much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of

the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and copied

a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he

effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for long

stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with

mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and repeating

sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.

   There are good reasons for this. If you look at information flow in a

text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost always

last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the

subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The opening

establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to

accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit repetition

for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too

quickly.

   The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different

structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should

have those available as resources. I believe they should be used for

continuity, though, not for variation.

   I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what kind of

variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A

variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is

another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open sentences is

another.

    Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting that most

sentences will start with the subject and that when we have variation

form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple

adverbials.

   As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is harmful to

imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence

openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them to see

how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of subjects, to

build coherence into texts.

   I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good teaching

practices, not a personal criticism.

 

Craig

 

 Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand.  Do you still believe

it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to

start sentences?  Is it harmful to have them try changing up

sentences on a worksheet?  (I don't know how you got the idea that I

was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)

 

I enjoy the spirit of the conversation.  Just because I thought you

were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am

not enjoying myself.

 

Susan

 

 

On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:

 

Susan,

   I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward a mature

literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should all be

constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far, far from

perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our profession

as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if what we

are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you posted to

the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings to keep

from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of

conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at all to do

with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad teacher. We

simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an open mind.

I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was never

intended to be personal.

   That being said, I would ask you to question seriously whether the

"style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate. It says,

first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50% of the

time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly study. The

studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a professional

writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an average of

about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the

highest

about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the case,

then

students already vary sentence openings more than mature writers. I

would add that the writers in the study were successful, not boring.

   I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical

Grammar" as a

more linguistically sound source of advice.

   But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I apologize if

anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a

teacher.

As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully grounded,

effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful of each

other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures

on my

part to do that.

 

Craig

 

 

 Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style guides.

I'm pasting it in.  Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing

Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same starting word

in an entire essay.  Yikes, I should have experienced lots more

outrage, tar, and feathers!

 

Sentence Beginnings

Vary the beginnings of your sentences.

 

 

Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject—far

more than the number of sentences begun in any other way.  But

overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous

writing.  Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your

sentences.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

WORDS

 

 

 

 

 

Two adjectives:               Angry and proud, Alice resolved to

fight back.

 

 

An adverb:                     Suddenly a hissing and clattering came

from the heights around us.

 

 

 

A connecting word:          For students who have just survived the

brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere is all

too familiar.  But others, accustomed to being stars in high school,

find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.

 

 

 

An interrupting adverb:     A healthy body, however, is just as

important as a healthy mind.

 

 

 

A series of words:            Light, water, temperature, minerals—

these affect the health of plants.

 

  PHRASES

 

 

 

 

 

 

A connecting phrase:        If the Soviet care and feeding of

athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect.  For one

thing, it can be ruthless.

 

 

 

A prepositional phrase:     Out of necessity they stitched all of

their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this

existence.

 

 

 

An infinitive:                  To be really successful, you will

have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.

 

 

A gerund:                       Maintaining a daily exercise program

is essential.

 

 

A participle:                   Looking out of the window high over

the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse

surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead surrounded

by fields.

 

 

An appositive:                A place of refuge, the Mission provides

food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.

 

 

An absolute:                   His fur bristling, the cat went on the

attack.

 

  CLAUSES

 

 

 

 

 

 

An adverbial clause:         When you first start writing—and I think

it's true for a lot of beginning writers—you’re scared to death that

if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never going to

show up again.

 

 

An adjective clause:         The freshman, who was not a joiner of

organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of a group

of animal lovers.

 

 

 

A noun clause:                Why earthquakes occur is a questions to

ask a geologist.

 

 

 

 

On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:

 

Susan,

This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students

HOW to vary their sentences.  I was under the impression that you

just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.

 

What method do you use to teach the different possible variations?

 

Jean Waldman

----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"

Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 7:21 PM

Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions

 

 

Craig, I just don't understand your logic.  You were asked to

evaluate two passages that contained the same content.  The first

had

boring sentence starts and the second had variation.  You admitted

the second had "more flexibility" but then concluded that it doesn't

make it better and went on to speak for Ed that he couldn't possibly

believe the varying sentence starts made it better.

 

That struck me as arrogantly dismissive.

 

Do you have any proof that teaching students how to vary their

sentence starts compromises their ability to write with coherence?

It seems like such a  stretch  Varying a sentence start doesn't

force

students to vary the subject.  If varying sentence starts doesn't

lead to incoherence, would you change your stance?  Or do you have

other concerns as well.

 

Susan

 

On May 20, 2009, at 9:55 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:

 

Susan,

   I'm sorry if I come across as arrogantly dismissive. I don't

mean to

be. I do believe that teaching students to vary sentence

openings is

not a good idea, and I have given that a great deal of study and

thought.  I believe that the conventional advice to vary sentence

openings is not based on close observation of how language works in

effective texts. I'm not sure why you would say those points are

irrelevant. Asking students to vary sentence openings may have the

effect of pushing them further away from coherence--at best, a

distraction from more relevant choices.

   Here's a opening passage--chosen in part because I already

have  it in

an electronic file to copy from--from Leslie Silko's "Yellow

woman".

It's a short story, so the sentence openings are more typical of

narrative than of a more expository text, but the sentence

openings  are

quite unremarkable, almost entirely pronouns. I hope we can base

the

discussion on observations of effective writing, not on personal

preferences.

 

  Yellow Woman    (Leslie Silko)

 

    My thigh clung to his with dampness, and I watched the sun

rising up

through the tamaracks and willows. The small brown water birds

came to

the river and hopped across the mud, leaving brown scratches in the

alkali-white crust. They bathed in the river silently. I could hear

the water, almost at our feet where the narrow fast channel bubbled

and washed green ragged moss and fern leaves. I looked at him

beside

me, rolled in the red blanket on the white river sand. I cleaned

the

sand out of the cracks between my toes, squinting because the

sun was

above the willow trees. I looked at him for the last time,

sleeping on

the white river sand.

     I felt hungry and followed the river south the way we had

come  the

night before, following our footprints that were already blurred by

lizard tracks and bug trails. The horses were still lying down, and

the black one whinnied when he saw me but he did not get up—

maybe it

was because the corral was made out of thick cedar branches and the

horse had not yet felt the sun like I had. I tried to look

beyond the

pale red mesas to the pueblo. I knew it was there, even if I could

not see it, on the sandrock hill above the river, the same river

that

moved past me now and had reflected the moon last night.

    The horse felt warm underneath me. He shook his head and pawed

the

sand. The bay whinnied and leaned against the gate trying to

follow,

and I remembered him asleep inside the red blanket beside the

river. I

slid off the horse and tied him close to the other horse, I waked

north with the river again, and the white sand broke loose in

footprints over footprints.

    “Wake up.”

    He moved in the blanket and turned his face to me with his

eyes  still

closed. I knelt down to touch him.

    “I’m leaving.”

    He smiled now, eyes still closed. “You are coming with me,

remember?”

He sat up now with his bare dark chest and belly in the sun.

    “Where?”

    “To my place.”

    “And will I come back?”

     He pulled his pants on. I walked away from him, feeling him

behind me

and smelling the willows.

    “Yellow woman,” he said.

    I turned to face him. “Who are you?” I asked.

    He laughed and knelt on the low, sandy bank, washing his face

in the

river. “Last night you guessed my name, and you knew why I had

come.”

     I stared past him at the shallow moving water and tried to

remember

the night, but I could only see the moon in the water and remember

his warmth around me.

 

 Craig

 

Craig

I sounded snarky in my last email.  I'm sorry for that.  But you

really are arrogantly dismissive of something I teach my

students as

a mini-lesson but do not require them to do in their essays.  I

have

seen better writing from them, and it is annoying to have such

strong

evidence be dismissed without much thought.  I do think you

have not

thought this through.

 

Susan

 

 

On May 20, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:

 

On May 20, 2009, at 1:09 PM, Craig Hancock wrote:

You can certainly make the judgment that Ed's version shows more

flexibility on the part of the writer, but it doesn't make it a

better essay,

 

Craig, it's clearly better.  You offer no evidence for why it is

worse or even equal.  Own up, dude:  It is clearly better, but,

yes, it still sucks.  Your tower is showing.

 

The rest of your argument is irrelevant.  You are preaching to

the

choir.  We do know what makes a good essay.  We know that varying

sentence starts is not a panacea.

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface

at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web

interface at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface

at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:

and select "Join or leave the list"

 

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/