Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these
goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context"
instruction with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more
than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
>
about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>
has
>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>> what
it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't
even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels,"
because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may
sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary’s College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary’s City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of EngliTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 11:10:40 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
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Just as a comment on the metaphor, both my kids leaned to the outside
of a curve when they had training wheels on their bicycles and had to
learn a completely different strategy when the wheels came off.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Just as a comment on the metaphor, both my kids leaned to the outside of a curve when they had training wheels on their bicycles and had to learn a completely different strategy when the wheels came off.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:54:47 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
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In our most recent thread about sentence structure, variation in style, and
composition, the fundamental intersection of grammar and instructional goals
was mentioned. I want to take just a moment to post the "Three Goals for
Grammar Teaching" contained in one of my favorite texts, *Grammar Alive! A
Guide for Teachers*, written by members of ATEG. This is just a very basic
overview; the actual text elaborates on these goals quite elegantly. From
page 4 of the text:
"Goal A:
Every student, from every background, will complete school with the ability
to communicate comfortably and effectively in both spoken and written
Standard English, with awareness of when use of Standard English is
appropriate.
Goal B:
Every student will complete school with the ability to analyze the
grammatical structure of sentences within English texts, using grammatical
terminology correctly and demonstrating knowledge of how sentence-level
grammatical structure contributes to the coherence of paragraphs and texts.
Goal C:
Every student will complete school with an understand of, and appreciation
for, the natural variation that occurs in language across time, social
situation, and social group. While recognizing the need for mastering
Standard English, students will also demonstrate the understanding of the
equality in the expressive capacity and linguistic structure among a range
of language varieties both vernacular and standard, as well as an
understanding of language-based prejudice."
These goals won't make everyone happy, but I find them to be succinct,
cogent, and extremely effective when implemented. I believe that, when used
together, these goals provide the context (the "why are we learning this?"
solution) and the mechanics of grammar instruction.
I hope someone on the list who is not familiar with them finds them useful!
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
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In our most recent thread about sentence structure, variation in style, and composition, the fundamental intersection of grammar and instructional goals was mentioned. I want to take just a moment to post the "Three Goals for Grammar Teaching" contained in one of my favorite texts, Grammar Alive! A Guide for Teachers, written by members of ATEG. This is just a very basic overview; the actual text elaborates on these goals quite elegantly. From page 4 of the text:
"Goal A:
Every student, from every background, will complete school with the ability to communicate comfortably and effectively in both spoken and written Standard English, with awareness of when use of Standard English is appropriate.
Goal B:
Every student will complete school with the ability to analyze the grammatical structure of sentences within English texts, using grammatical terminology correctly and demonstrating knowledge of how sentence-level grammatical structure contributes to the coherence of paragraphs and texts.
Goal C:
Every student will complete school with an understand of, and appreciation for, the natural variation that occurs in language across time, social situation, and social group. While recognizing the need for mastering Standard English, students will also demonstrate the understanding of the equality in the expressive capacity and linguistic structure among a range of language varieties both vernacular and standard, as well as an understanding of language-based prejudice."
These goals won't make everyone happy, but I find them to be succinct, cogent, and extremely effective when implemented. I believe that, when used together, these goals provide the context (the "why are we learning this?" solution) and the mechanics of grammar instruction.
I hope someone on the list who is not familiar with them finds them useful!
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 16:49:09 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
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John,
Those are worthy goals, and I echo your endorsement of the book.
I wasn't part of the team that produced it, but from what I understand
it morphed from a scope and sequence project, and NCTE didn't want to
go along with endorsing an actual scope and sequence component within
the book. The most controversial of the three would be the second goal,
not currently part of most English curriculumms. Those of us who teach
semester long grammar courses at the college level know how amibitious
a goal it is. But there's no place in the book where it's stated, for
example, that a student should know determiners by ninth grade or modal
auxiliaries by 11th or even that a graduating student should be
familiar with those categories and able to apply them to a particular
text. I have yet to find a student coming out of high school who could
meet that second goal. Mostly their knowledge of grammar is limited to
prescriptive rules of the questionable variety we have been discussing.
Is that because I teach in New York State? I'm not sure.
Part of our problem comes from the fact that we are an assembly of
NCTE. When scope and sequence came up again two ATEG conferences ago,
there was some concern that we should try to lobby NCTE for change
rather than develop an opposing program. Other people felt, perhaps
with some justification, that thoughful grammars are already available,
that we mainly need to endorse them rather than try to develop our own.
My own position was and has been very different from that, but I have
tried to be part of the loyal opposition.
In New York state, there has been an affirmation of "literary elements"
in the English curriculum. Metaphor is a literary element, but phrases
and clauses are not. I'm not quite sure who has decided where to draw
the line. I think much might be gained if we can get people to
recognize that most great literature is simply a highly effective use
of ordinary language. It's hard to make the point if the nature of
ordinary language is below conscious radar.
It is also hard to be in favor of teaching grammar when the teaching of
grammar can mean so many different things. As Susan pointed out, most
progressive teachers still think of it as harmful. That doesn't
necessarily mean that we should support ALL teaching of grammar in
opposition to that. It may mean admitting that some approaches can do
more harm than good.
Craig
In our most recent thread about sentence structure, variation in style,
> and
> composition, the fundamental intersection of grammar and instructional
> goals
> was mentioned. I want to take just a moment to post the "Three Goals for
> Grammar Teaching" contained in one of my favorite texts, *Grammar Alive! A
> Guide for Teachers*, written by members of ATEG. This is just a very basic
> overview; the actual text elaborates on these goals quite elegantly. From
> page 4 of the text:
>
> "Goal A:
> Every student, from every background, will complete school with the
> ability
> to communicate comfortably and effectively in both spoken and written
> Standard English, with awareness of when use of Standard English is
> appropriate.
>
> Goal B:
> Every student will complete school with the ability to analyze the
> grammatical structure of sentences within English texts, using grammatical
> terminology correctly and demonstrating knowledge of how sentence-level
> grammatical structure contributes to the coherence of paragraphs and
> texts.
>
> Goal C:
> Every student will complete school with an understand of, and appreciation
> for, the natural variation that occurs in language across time, social
> situation, and social group. While recognizing the need for mastering
> Standard English, students will also demonstrate the understanding of the
> equality in the expressive capacity and linguistic structure among a range
> of language varieties both vernacular and standard, as well as an
> understanding of language-based prejudice."
>
> These goals won't make everyone happy, but I find them to be succinct,
> cogent, and extremely effective when implemented. I believe that, when
> used
> together, these goals provide the context (the "why are we learning this?"
> solution) and the mechanics of grammar instruction.
>
> I hope someone on the list who is not familiar with them finds them
> useful!
>
> John Alexander
> Austin, Texas
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:45:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
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Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
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________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
> about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>> has
>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>> what it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary’s College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary’s City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>> as an
>> example of the important educational techniques called
>> "scaffolding." In
>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>> finally
>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>
>>
>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are helpful.
>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing if a
>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>> trying to
>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>> any
>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>> under
>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks his
>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>> will
>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>> internalized
>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>> all.
>>
>>
>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>> but still
>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>> then I'm
>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>
>>
>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>> beginning with
>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>> you have
>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>> don't
>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>> bike with
>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>> off
>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>> sentence
>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>> Don't
>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>> advocated
>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>> those
>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>> a row
>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>> If there
>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>> "there
>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>> what
>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>> allows
>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: training wheels
>>
>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>
>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>> So...let'e
>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>> starts
>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>> spigots.
>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>> texts
>> do you find harmful?
>>
>> Have at it.
>>
>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>
>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's. Our
>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>> its
>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of this
>> listserv.
>>
>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>
>> Hurts, donut?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>> thoughtful and
>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the opening
>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I would
>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm than
>> good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>> that
>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>> to
>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>> solutions.
>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>> total
>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>> students'
>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could come up
>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>> vocabulary
>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>> amuse me
>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>> effective writing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>> writers do
>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>> time,
>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>> doing
>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>> are an
>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>> don't see
>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>> teaching
>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>> put
>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>> is ,
>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>> experience
>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time, if a
>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>> that
>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>> topic
>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>> various
>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>> thus
>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>> and
>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>> to
>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>> put
>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>> students
>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>> in a
>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>> student
>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>> student's
>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>> more
>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>> deliberate and
>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>> or she
>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>> revision
>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>> rhetorical
>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>> "she" as
>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>> be such
>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>> would
>> have favored coherence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>> have a
>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>> Great War
>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>> about
>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence starts
>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are problems
>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>> for
>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring to
>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>> chaotic
>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>> causing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>> simply
>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>> coherence. Both are important.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not make
>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping reading.
>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>> each sentence connects]?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>> inconclusive
>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>> revision:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>> become
>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really started
>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because she
>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of
>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a writer
>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows she
>> has not been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>> term improvement should take priority.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>> attaining a mature style).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>> and control.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>> that will make this easier."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>> the long one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>> advice?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van Druten
>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>> of verb choice."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>> their sentence starts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>> the core problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>> with what I have experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>> structure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>> sentence starts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>> varying
>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>> starts
>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>> Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>> long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>> repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>> for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>> variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>> to see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>> believe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>> that I
>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>> you
>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>> not enjoying myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>> a mature
>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>> all be
>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>> far from
>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>> profession
>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>> what we
>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>> posted to
>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>> to keep
>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>> all to do
>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>> teacher. We
>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>> open mind.
>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>> never
>> intended to be personal.
>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>> whether the
>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>> It says,
>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>> of the
>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>> study. The
>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>> professional
>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>> average of
>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>> highest
>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>> case,
>> then
>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>> writers. I
>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>> boring.
>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>> Grammar" as a
>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>> apologize if
>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>> teacher.
>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>> grounded,
>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>> of each
>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>> on my
>> part to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>> guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>> starting word
>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sentence Beginnings
>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>> far
>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>> sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WORDS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>> fight back.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>> clattering came
>> from the heights around us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>> survived the
>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>> is all
>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>> school,
>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>> important as a healthy mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>> minerals-
>> these affect the health of plants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHRASES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>> one
>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>> program
>> is essential.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>> over
>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>> surrounded
>> by fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>> provides
>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>> on the
>> attack.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> CLAUSES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>> I think
>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>> death that
>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>> going to
>> show up again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>> joiner of
>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>> a group
>> of animal lovers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>> questions to
>> ask a geologist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>> variations?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean Waldman
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select
>> "Join or leave the list"
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>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:53:42 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Peter,
You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of Goal Two:
This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?
But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing and language arts teachers. How much students should know about language is directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much students should know about grammar does fall much more directly into the domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher. Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem aside, linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language arts teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor, is one of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in quite a while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge, experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long felt towards good K12 teachers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
> about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>> has
>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>> what it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary’s College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary’s City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>> as an
>> example of the important educational techniques called
>> "scaffolding." In
>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>> finally
>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>
>>
>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are helpful.
>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing if a
>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>> trying to
>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>> any
>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>> under
>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks his
>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>> will
>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>> internalized
>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>> all.
>>
>>
>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>> but still
>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>> then I'm
>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>
>>
>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>> beginning with
>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>> you have
>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>> don't
>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>> bike with
>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>> off
>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>> sentence
>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>> Don't
>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>> advocated
>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>> those
>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>> a row
>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>> If there
>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>> "there
>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>> what
>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>> allows
>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: training wheels
>>
>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>
>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>> So...let'e
>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>> starts
>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>> spigots.
>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>> texts
>> do you find harmful?
>>
>> Have at it.
>>
>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>
>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's. Our
>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>> its
>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of this
>> listserv.
>>
>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>
>> Hurts, donut?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>> thoughtful and
>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the opening
>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I would
>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm than
>> good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>> that
>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>> to
>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>> solutions.
>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>> total
>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>> students'
>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could come up
>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>> vocabulary
>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>> amuse me
>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>> effective writing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>> writers do
>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>> time,
>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>> doing
>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>> are an
>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>> don't see
>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>> teaching
>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>> put
>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>> is ,
>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>> experience
>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time, if a
>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>> that
>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>> topic
>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>> various
>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>> thus
>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>> and
>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>> to
>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>> put
>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>> students
>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>> in a
>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>> student
>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>> student's
>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>> more
>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>> deliberate and
>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>> or she
>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>> revision
>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>> rhetorical
>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>> "she" as
>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>> be such
>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>> would
>> have favored coherence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>> have a
>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>> Great War
>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>> about
>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence starts
>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are problems
>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>> for
>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring to
>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>> chaotic
>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>> causing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>> simply
>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>> coherence. Both are important.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not make
>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping reading.
>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>> each sentence connects]?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>> inconclusive
>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>> revision:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>> become
>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really started
>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because she
>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of
>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a writer
>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows she
>> has not been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>> term improvement should take priority.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>> attaining a mature style).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>> and control.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>> that will make this easier."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>> the long one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>> advice?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van Druten
>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>> of verb choice."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>> their sentence starts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>> the core problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>> with what I have experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>> structure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>> sentence starts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>> varying
>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>> starts
>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>> Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>> long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>> repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>> for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>> variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>> to see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>> believe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>> that I
>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>> you
>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>> not enjoying myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>> a mature
>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>> all be
>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>> far from
>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>> profession
>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>> what we
>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>> posted to
>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>> to keep
>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>> all to do
>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>> teacher. We
>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>> open mind.
>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>> never
>> intended to be personal.
>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>> whether the
>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>> It says,
>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>> of the
>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>> study. The
>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>> professional
>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>> average of
>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>> highest
>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>> case,
>> then
>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>> writers. I
>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>> boring.
>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>> Grammar" as a
>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>> apologize if
>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>> teacher.
>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>> grounded,
>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>> of each
>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>> on my
>> part to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>> guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>> starting word
>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sentence Beginnings
>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>> far
>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>> sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WORDS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>> fight back.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>> clattering came
>> from the heights around us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>> survived the
>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>> is all
>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>> school,
>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>> important as a healthy mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>> minerals-
>> these affect the health of plants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHRASES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>> one
>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>> program
>> is essential.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>> over
>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>> surrounded
>> by fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>> provides
>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>> on the
>> attack.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> CLAUSES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>> I think
>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>> death that
>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>> going to
>> show up again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>> joiner of
>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>> a group
>> of animal lovers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>> questions to
>> ask a geologist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>> variations?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean Waldman
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
>> select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
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>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 19:54:49 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sorry for the preceding blank message. I didn't eve realize I'd sent it.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 7:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Peter,
You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the discussions of how much grammar students need to know tend break down. You write of Goal Two:
This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?
But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists, not writing and language arts teachers. How much students should know about language is directly analogous to how much students should know about biology, US history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the question of how much students should know about grammar does fall much more directly into the domain of the writing teacher and the language arts teacher. Unfortunately, most of these people are the beneficiaries of a half century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but, that problem aside, linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing and language arts teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions of scope and sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists tend not to.
I must add that this thread, training wheels and its predecessor, is one of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on this list in quite a while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their knowledge, experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of awe I have long felt towards good K12 teachers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: training wheels
Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue, one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology, why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either of these goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction that
complicates the argument even further: students need to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context" instruction with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as "rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by "rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules) that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause. This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because" subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to break any more than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end. For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave, not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice, since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make reasoned judgements
> about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was "railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the amount of damage that
>> has
>> been caused by misapplication of training wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however, agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are "stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long time without learning
>> what it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your argument"; I wasn't even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that *you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers. But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of "training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary’s College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary’s City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that everything that gets called "training wheels" in
>> education is bad. On the contrary, "training wheels" are often used
>> as an
>> example of the important educational techniques called
>> "scaffolding." In
>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling, guided practice and
>> finally
>> independent practice to help a student master tasks
>>
>>
>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me. Training wheels are helpful.
>> They are a good thing if they are needed. They are a bad thing if a
>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see that her student is
>> trying to
>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The teacher who presents
>> any
>> "rule" as rigid and true is what you are railing against. However,
>> under
>> your strict anger against all "made-up" rules, a teacher who asks his
>> students to write complete sentences is risking that his students
>> will
>> "internalize certain made-up rules without actually having
>> internalized
>> the underlying skills." Professional writers use fragments, after
>> all.
>>
>>
>> But if a college student avoids starting sentences with because
>> but still
>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have known such students--
>> then I'm
>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did more harm than good.
>>
>>
>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to write sentences
>> beginning with
>> "because" AND I teach them to try different sentence starts. If
>> you have
>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments, you can't really blame
>> training wheels because the biggest "training wheel" of them all is
>> don't
>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student is falling off the
>> bike with
>> the training wheels still attached. You take those training wheels
>> off
>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer. That student needs to
>> understand rules before she goes free-wheeling down a hill.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using a large amount of
>> sentence
>> starter variation is a hallmark of good writers.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just changed my argument.
>> Don't
>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin' boring. I have never
>> advocated
>> "a large amount" of different starts. What I have said is (barring
>> those
>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who start five sentences in
>> a row
>> with the same start need to change up one or more more of them.
>> If there
>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences that start with "he" or
>> "there
>> is," then it's a good training wheel to ask students to reconsider
>> what
>> they wrote. If they can come up with a purpose, fine. The rule
>> allows
>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule has worked.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: training wheels
>>
>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>
>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to which I subscribe.
>> So...let'e
>> be clear, what are all the training wheels you abhor? Sentence
>> starts
>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix metaphors and open up the
>> spigots.
>> What else? What other tactics that are commonly found in writing
>> texts
>> do you find harmful?
>>
>> Have at it.
>>
>> But you do know what the biggest "training wheel" is, don't you?
>>
>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned since the late 70's. Our
>> district curriculum director won't allow us to purchase books with
>> its
>> name in the title. And (the dead give away) it's in the name of this
>> listserv.
>>
>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>
>> Hurts, donut?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I just wanted to say that I find your contributions very
>> thoughtful and
>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring this back to the opening
>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed 'training wheels". I would
>> echo what I see as the core of your position: they do more harm than
>> good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more clear, too--I didn't mean
>> that
>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I meant that some solutions
>> to
>> the problem of boring essays are short term (or superficial)
>> solutions.
>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring essays by college
>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even as a percentage of my
>> total
>> haul of papers, than high school teachers read--just because my
>> students'
>> high school teachers have done a good job with them). I could come up
>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a world from a funny
>> vocabulary
>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming couplets--which might
>> amuse me
>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would probably not make for more
>> effective writing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't silly--after all, good
>> writers do
>> include some variant sentence starts, even if it's only 25% of the
>> time,
>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how good writers go about
>> doing
>> this. I actually do not think that sentence starts and coherence
>> are an
>> either/or--you've made it clear that you teach coherence, and I
>> don't see
>> how that could be totally negated by the little time you spend
>> teaching
>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i would not in any way
>> put
>> coherence and sentence start variation on the same level. Coherence
>> is ,
>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental aspect of a reader's
>> experience
>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not. Most of the time, if a
>> revision with more varied sentence starts is better than the draft,
>> that
>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of some more significant
>> change--like improved coordination or subordination, or improved
>> topic
>> focus in general. If a student thinks that her revision
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> is better is simply because she started her sentences in more
>> various
>> ways, she may understand what really made the revision better, and
>> thus
>> she may be less likely to transfer her learning to the next context
>> and
>> do even better in the future. And she may not be helped on the path
>> to
>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater syntactical maturity (as you
>> put
>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and control (as I put it).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of our goals) is for our
>> students
>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading--eventually. But not necessarily while they're
>> in a
>> particular class that we happen to be teaching. Sometimes, as a
>> student
>> experiments with more complex thoughts and expressions, that
>> student's
>> writing may have to get more convoluted before it gets clearer and
>> more
>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the student advice that would
>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today over a more
>> deliberate and
>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess my question for your student would be whether, and why, he
>> or she
>> really wanted to switch the focus of the second sentence of the
>> revision
>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's condition. Was there a
>> rhetorical
>> purpose, other than simply variation, for switching from "he" to
>> "she" as
>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If so--and there could
>> be such
>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision is one instance where
>> sentence start variation and coherence really did conflict, and I
>> would
>> have favored coherence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still, your student is revising and experimenting and certainly not
>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like "every sentence must
>> have a
>> different subject." I don't think the different sides in this
>> Great War
>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far apart.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I need to be more clear
>> about
>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary their sentence starts.
>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the room as they are writing.
>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of similar sentence starts
>> (which are not interesting parallel structure). I'll mention it to
>> them and they'll read it it back and notice how it sounds to them.
>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>> get it, and they change it on their own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays are short-term problems?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period. Bad essays are problems
>> for a high school teacher who has to read 150. They are problems
>> for
>> a college instructor who doesn't have to read 150. The amount one
>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no difference of opinion
>> between high school or college instructor: if an essay is boring to
>> a high school teacher, it should be boring to a college instructor.
>> The boring might come from uninspired sentence starts or from
>> chaotic
>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what the problem is. We can
>> all spot the problem and help our students with whatever is
>> causing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This argument has now shifted to a fallacious either-or. It is
>> simply
>> not true that we must pit sentence start variation against
>> coherence. Both are important.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to more writing does not make
>> one unable to distinguish easier reading from head-thumping reading.
>> The goal is that our students produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian asks about my student's revision, "I'm curious; how might
>> the passage's author respond to this kind of advice [show me how
>> each sentence connects]?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian, that is good advice which often includes considering varying
>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of sorts. It's
>> inconclusive
>> (it is very hard to get students to revise). But here is her
>> revision:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves falling. She has
>> become
>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight, and he has really started
>> to notice it. He had to support her as they stood there because she
>> could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing just her
>> change in weight, but it really hits him at this point how much her
>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and in such a short period of
>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have better writers than this. But it's all about taking a writer
>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas that her writing shows she
>> has not been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like one of the differences of opinion here is what a
>> teacher should do with students who "do not have a mature style,"
>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them "training wheels" (aka,
>> "triage" them, give them "bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>> more presentable in the short term, or should we try to set them on
>> a path towards developing a more mature style in the long run?
>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>> conflict? And when do they do conflict, which should take priority?
>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and that when they do, long-
>> term improvement should take priority.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Susan when she says that her young and struggling writers
>> hand in more readable prose when they follow her advice to "change
>> up your sentence starters." But I also agree with Craig that having
>> been trained this way may make it hard for college writers to think
>> in terms of coherence and see the value of repetition. If, as I
>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then the student's short
>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high school teachers found a
>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to read) may not have been
>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater difficulty in ultimately
>> attaining a mature style).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I have smaller class
>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by and large, I probably
>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring papers. (Was that "good"
>> repetition or "bad," by the way?)But college teachers, too, face
>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a paper and long-term
>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've had plenty of students--
>> often but not always English Language Learners--who can write
>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled up when they start
>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would encourage students
>> like that to only write in simple sentences. We put up with reading
>> convoluted sentences so that students can practice, and eventually
>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>> advice as "only use simple sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice acts as a scaffold to help
>> eventually students reach "mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>> and control.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John to agree; they're
>> probably both thinking that I'm being too abstract and talking
>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll say how I might respond
>> to the student who wrote the "Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel like each thought is separate
>> from the next, and there's nothing to show me how they connect,
>> which is more important than the other, which depends on which. One
>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of problem for their readers
>> is by combining sentences. Before next class, can you try a few
>> different ways of combining those seven sentences into three to
>> five sentences, and tell me which way you like best and why? If you
>> take another look at that "sentence combining" chapter we read,
>> that will make this easier."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The results would be less predictible then if I just told the
>> student to very sentence starters, but at least I'd be asking the
>> student to realize that he or she has stylistic choices to make and
>> to think about the effects of those choices on readers. And
>> consistently asking students to do that can make a difference over
>> the long one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on pre-college writers, and
>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author respond to this kind of
>> advice?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van Druten
>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say you would "work with this writer to subordinate,
>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>> consider more carefully the semantic weight/information packaging
>> of verb choice."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If I said what you just said to my students, they would look at me
>> like I was trying to be condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and ask them to change up
>> their sentence starts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the student "likely [to] produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want"? No. I am there in the high school
>> classroom. They do not create twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>> the core problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have expertise in this area. I have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>> reflect what works with my struggling student writers. You can
>> keep trying to justify what you think should work, but it conflicts
>> with what I have experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not encourage this student to vary sentence openers as
>> there is no problem with the sentence openers. The writer clearly
>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry forward as given
>> information throughout the paragraph (if that is not an appropriate
>> topic for that length of time, then that is the problem, not the
>> structure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would work with this writer to subordinate, coordinate, and
>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to consider more
>> carefully the semantic weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here would seem (to me)
>> quite a distraction from the real problems that indicate the
>> maturity of the writing. The writer would not improve the core
>> problems and would likely produce confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a belief that that is
>> what teachers want.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van Druten
>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you continue to bring up
>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that purposeful repetition is
>> the mark of a mature style. You should now drop that out of your
>> argument. In fact you should have dropped that on after May 18th
>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point. I said, "When I cover
>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes, we talk about the
>> difference between purposeful repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am teaching students who do not have a mature style. I went to
>> school today to find you an example. Do you or do you not agree
>> that the writer below could use some advice on changing up her
>> sentence starts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the leaves of a tree that had
>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>> falling. He has really started to notice it that she has become so
>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He had to support her
>> because she could barely hold herself up. He is not only realizing
>> just her change in weight. He sees how much her leukemia has taken
>> over her whole body and in such a short period of time. He
>> realizes that she doesn't have that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we tell students that
>> varying
>> sentence openings (using something other than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation, you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted with the Night", which
>> starts
>> every sentence with "I have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>> Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman" to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I", many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same subject opening for
>> long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with the subject and
>> repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation, but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe they should be used
>> for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and that when we have
>> variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students trying to get them
>> to see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you stand. Do you still
>> believe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show students various ways to
>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them try changing up
>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how you got the idea
>> that I
>> was requiring them to vary every start in their own essays.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation. Just because I thought
>> you
>> were dismissing my argument and called you on it doesn't mean I am
>> not enjoying myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe that mentoring young people on their path toward
>> a mature
>> literacy is a very difficult process. As teachers, we should
>> all be
>> constantly examining and refining our practices. We are far,
>> far from
>> perfect in what we do. That is at least equally true of our
>> profession
>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over and over again, if
>> what we
>> are doing is best for the students we are serving. Once you
>> posted to
>> the list that you ask students to vary their sentence openings
>> to keep
>> from being boring, that advice became subject to the kind of
>> conversation we do routinely on this list. It has nothing at
>> all to do
>> with whether any of us believe you are a nazi or a bad
>> teacher. We
>> simply need to be able to consider these approaches with an
>> open mind.
>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of conversation was
>> never
>> intended to be personal.
>> That being said, I would ask you to question seriously
>> whether the
>> "style guide" you are using is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>> It says,
>> first of all, that students use non-subject openers about 50%
>> of the
>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind of scholarly
>> study. The
>> studies refered to on list recently seem to show that a
>> professional
>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than that, at an
>> average of
>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's study was 60%, the
>> highest
>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers. If that is the
>> case,
>> then
>> students already vary sentence openings more than mature
>> writers. I
>> would add that the writers in the study were successful, not
>> boring.
>> I would recommend a book like Martha Kolln's "Rhetorical
>> Grammar" as a
>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>> But above all, don't be shy about joining our talk. I
>> apologize if
>> anything I said made you feel as if you were under attack as a
>> teacher.
>> As a profession, we are still a long way from having fully
>> grounded,
>> effective, widely accepted practices. We need to be respectful
>> of each
>> other as we work that out, and I apologize again for any failures
>> on my
>> part to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be found in many style
>> guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you thought I was a writing
>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare repeat the same
>> starting word
>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have experienced lots more
>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sentence Beginnings
>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Most writers begin about half their sentences with the subject-
>> far
>> more than the number of sentences begun in any other way. But
>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings results in monotonous
>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the beginnings of your
>> sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WORDS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Two adjectives: Angry and proud, Alice resolved to
>> fight back.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverb: Suddenly a hissing and
>> clattering came
>> from the heights around us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting word: For students who have just
>> survived the
>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this competitive atmosphere
>> is all
>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to being stars in high
>> school,
>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of overachievers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body, however, is just as
>> important as a healthy mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A series of words: Light, water, temperature,
>> minerals-
>> these affect the health of plants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHRASES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet care and feeding of
>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far from perfect. For
>> one
>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity they stitched all of
>> their secret fears and lingering childhood nightmares into this
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An infinitive: To be really successful, you will
>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English, Spanish, and computer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A gerund: Maintaining a daily exercise
>> program
>> is essential.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A participle: Looking out of the window high
>> over
>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a single farmhouse
>> surrounded by fields, followed by another single homestead
>> surrounded
>> by fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An appositive: A place of refuge, the Mission
>> provides
>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute: His fur bristling, the cat went
>> on the
>> attack.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> CLAUSES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverbial clause: When you first start writing-and
>> I think
>> it's true for a lot of beginning writers-you're scared to
>> death that
>> if you don't get that sentence right that minute it's never
>> going to
>> show up again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adjective clause: The freshman, who was not a
>> joiner of
>> organizations, found herself unanimously elected president of
>> a group
>> of animal lovers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A noun clause: Why earthquakes occur is a
>> questions to
>> ask a geologist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> This is the first time you mentioned that you teach the students
>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under the impression that you
>> just demand that they do it and grade them on whether they do it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What method do you use to teach the different possible
>> variations?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean Waldman
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan van Druten"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>> select
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 20:30:56 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 17:41:26 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To:
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Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit
English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-22437275-1243644086=:44491--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 20:40:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
In-Reply-To:
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> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid;
> however, the list member who indicated that class size was
> irrelevant in teaching
> I missed this original comment. What was the reasoning?
I missed this original comment. What was the reasoning? I think
most people agree that smaller would be better, but that the money
spent is prohibitive.
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar
question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather
(as a noun).
It's funny how many of you have thought the training wheel thread
just got interesting. I thought it had just dried up. Oh well. It
was fun while it lasted. Thanks.
Susan
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely
outside if she found them in the house, Joanne’s fear kept her from
going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne’s fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
On May 29, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Scott wrote:
> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
> the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in
> teaching
> writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My
> alma mater,
> MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
> a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had
> failed the
> English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my
> advisor had
> accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I
> had to
> take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first
> Freshman
> English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied
> that I had
> learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the
> class size
> was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day
> instead
> of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
> teacher.
>
> Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
> experience, class size is more important in English composition
> than in any
> other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
>
> **********************************************************************
> *****
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however, the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
I missed this original comment. What was the reasoning?
I missed this original comment. What was the reasoning? I think most people agree that smaller would be better, but that the money spent is prohibitive.
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
It's funny how many of you have thought the training wheel thread just got interesting. I thought it had just dried up. Oh well. It was fun while it lasted. Thanks.
Susan
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne’s fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
On May 29, 2009, at 7:30 PM, Scott wrote:
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
and select "Join or leave the list"
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-51--947534674--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:55:50 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Susan,
You wrote:
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne's fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to choose between A and D, but I don't understand why Heather and Joanne must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which seems to be what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply. If the topic of the paragraph is "fear," then A works better-or at least as well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the sisters have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne's behavior rather than, perhaps, her mother's insistence. I'm sure we could come up with other contexts as well, but the point is that A and D have different structures because they have different meanings. This test question strikes me as an instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed earlier in connection with this example, that should not be taught. Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other structures work in different contexts, we are still implying, and inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we've frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules that aren't.
Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Susan,
You wrote:
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct
answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun)
must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always
put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne’s
fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne’s
fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne’s
fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear
is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne
was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they
scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing
wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to
choose between A and D, but I don’t understand why Heather and Joanne
must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which
seems to be what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply.
If the topic of the paragraph is “fear,” then A works better—or
at least as well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the
sisters have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne’s behavior rather
than, perhaps, her mother’s insistence. I’m sure we could
come up with other contexts as well, but the point is that A and D have
different structures because they have different meanings. This test
question strikes me as an instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we
discussed earlier in connection with this example, that should not be taught.
Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other structures work in
different contexts, we are still implying, and inviting our students to infer,
that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and
not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we’ve
frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge
that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules
that aren’t.
Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 00:11:59 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
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I'm coming in on this thread really late, but I'm not sure that D is the correct answer because of a need to keep Heather/Joanne parallel as much as it is to make sure that the "unlike...." prepositional phrase modifies an appropriate noun. That is, it's Joanne who is unlike her sister Heather--not "fear" (ABC) or "they" (D), right?
My reasoning is based on the prepositional phrase ("unlike...") being adjectival, but maybe I'm incorrect in that assumption.
Larry
Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> 05/29/09 11:59 PM >>>
Susan,
You wrote:
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne's fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to choose between A and D, but I don't understand why Heather and Joanne must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which seems to be what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply. If the topic of the paragraph is "fear," then A works better-or at least as well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the sisters have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne's behavior rather than, perhaps, her mother's insistence. I'm sure we could come up with other contexts as well, but the point is that A and D have different structures because they have different meanings. This test question strikes me as an instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed earlier in connection with this example, that should not be taught. Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other structures work in different contexts, we are still implying, and inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we've frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules that aren't.
Herb
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:03:03 +0100
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
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> It is often put about by administrators, school inspectors, and politicians in
discussions concerning teacher numbers in the state schools in Britain is that
one can teach a large class as effectively as a small one. It comes with the
unspoken implication that the effectiveness depends on the individual teacher's
professional ability, and that therefore one has no cause for complaint if faced
with 30 plus students. It has, of course, the added advantage of keeping the
overall cost of teachers' salaries within bounds, with a lower demand on the
taxpayer's pocket.
However, for secondary schools particularly, where homework is insisted
upon, a key factor is absent from the discussion, namely the number of
assignments that one has to mark in 'one's own time'. If one is
conscientious in one's marking (for example, to quote one criterion, the
endeavouring to match the marking and comment specifically to the student),
the time taken is clearly greater for the large classes. The temptation for
the less conscientious teacher to rush through the marking -- or to set work
that can be quickly marked -- is always present.
There is also no reference made to the fact that with a smaller class one
can spend more time with individual students.
Incidentally, it is also never mentioned in these discussions that those
parents who send their children to private schools consider small classes
high on their list of requirements, or that those private schools that do
have small classes score well on the government's 'league tables' of
examination results.
Do American high school English teachers have to load their car boots at the
end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework books? (It is
normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one week, and
one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes).
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 08:59:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: richard betting <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Edmond and others,
Talking is teaching. It seems to me that’s the premise upon which
school administrators (and probably the general public) base their
opinion that class size is not a requirement for effective teaching.
High quality talking, to be sure, equated as Edmond mentions, with
professional ability. The more charismatic the teacher, the better the
motivator, the better the results. So increase class size and give
them a microphone. No personal intervention between teacher and
students is necessary in this model. On the other hand, if mere
talking is not teaching, then interaction with students both on their
essays and in classes becomes a matter of time, and time is reduced as
numbers grow. Actually and unfortunately, in my opinion, some teachers
see talking as teaching too.
Richard Betting, Prof Emeritus
Valley City State University
Valley City, ND
On May 30, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Edmond Wright wrote:
>> It is often put about by administrators, school inspectors, and
>> politicians in
> discussions concerning teacher numbers in the state schools in
> Britain is that
> one can teach a large class as effectively as a small one. It comes
> with the
> unspoken implication that the effectiveness depends on the
> individual teacher's
> professional ability, and that therefore one has no cause for
> complaint if faced
> with 30 plus students. It has, of course, the added advantage of
> keeping the
> overall cost of teachers' salaries within bounds, with a lower
> demand on the
> taxpayer's pocket.
>
> However, for secondary schools particularly, where homework is
> insisted
> upon, a key factor is absent from the discussion, namely the number of
> assignments that one has to mark in 'one's own time'. If one is
> conscientious in one's marking (for example, to quote one criterion,
> the
> endeavouring to match the marking and comment specifically to the
> student),
> the time taken is clearly greater for the large classes. The
> temptation for
> the less conscientious teacher to rush through the marking -- or to
> set work
> that can be quickly marked -- is always present.
>
> There is also no reference made to the fact that with a smaller
> class one
> can spend more time with individual students.
>
> Incidentally, it is also never mentioned in these discussions that
> those
> parents who send their children to private schools consider small
> classes
> high on their list of requirements, or that those private schools
> that do
> have small classes score well on the government's 'league tables' of
> examination results.
>
> Do American high school English teachers have to load their car
> boots at the
> end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework
> books? (It is
> normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one
> week, and
> one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes).
>
> Edmond
>
>
> Dr. Edmond Wright
> 3 Boathouse Court
> Trafalgar Road
> Cambridge
> CB4 1DU
> England
>
> Email: [log in to unmask]
> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 09:44:19 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure
rules, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to
"Joanne's fear" causes the reader one second of adjustment. Try
reading the sentence without the interrupting clause. Unlike her
sister Heather, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures. Parallel structures (such as "unlike x") set up
expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't deliver, it is as
unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
On May 29, 2009, at 11:55 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> Susan,
>
> You wrote:
>
> FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT
> grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to
> Heather (as a noun).
>
> Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely
> outside if she found them in the house, Joanne’s fear kept her from
> going anywhere near the creatures.
>
> A. Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
>
> B. Joanne’s fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the
> creatures
>
> C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
>
> D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
>
> E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
>
> I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing wrong
> with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to
> choose between A and D, but I don’t understand why Heather and
> Joanne must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of
> context, which seems to be what the test question and identifying
> only D as correct imply. If the topic of the paragraph is “fear,”
> then A works better—or at least as well. Perhaps the passage will
> be about distinct phobias the sisters have, or about fear as the
> reason for Joanne’s behavior rather than, perhaps, her mother’s
> insistence. I’m sure we could come up with other contexts as well,
> but the point is that A and D have different structures because
> they have different meanings. This test question strikes me as an
> instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed
> earlier in connection with this example, that should not be
> taught. Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other
> structures work in different contexts, we are still implying, and
> inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct
> structure.
>
> I do understand that this is a standardized test question and not a
> point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question
> we’ve frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of
> grammatical knowledge that leads teachers, editors, employers, and
> test developers to insist on rules that aren’t.
>
> Herb
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure rules, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's fear" causes the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence without the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as "unlike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't deliver, it is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
On May 29, 2009, at 11:55 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
Susan,
You wrote:
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne’s fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to choose between A and D, but I don’t understand why Heather and Joanne must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which seems to be what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply. If the topic of the paragraph is “fear,” then A works better—or at least as well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the sisters have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne’s behavior rather than, perhaps, her mother’s insistence. I’m sure we could come up with other contexts as well, but the point is that A and D have different structures because they have different meanings. This test question strikes me as an instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed earlier in connection with this example, that should not be taught. Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other structures work in different contexts, we are still implying, and inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we’ve frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules that aren’t.
Herb
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 12:39:02 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I agree that removing the non-restrictive relative makes a difference, but it does so because the result is a different sentence, with different expectations. Meaning tends to vary with form so that it's a truism that there is no such thing as exact paraphrase. Dwight Bolinger made the strong claim that there are no syntactic differences without semantic differences. I might not go quite that far, although if you include pragmatic and semantic differences the case gets stronger. However, even without the NRRC, the choice of main clause structures remains fairly open and is determined by pragmatics. Since English orthography doesn't mark stress or intonation, these differences aren't made explicit in writing, but if the written sentence represents a spoken sentence with tonic accent on "Joanne's," the contrast would be between Joanne's fear and Heather's fear. Perhaps the reason these written, out-of-context test sentences so often cause problems is that a single written English sentence represents a variety of different stress and intonation patterns and therefore distinct sentences with distinct contextual requirements.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure rules, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's fear" causes the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence without the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as "unlike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't deliver, it is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
On May 29, 2009, at 11:55 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
Susan,
You wrote:
FYI, I realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question. It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found them in the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne's fear is what kept her from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to choose between A and D, but I don't understand why Heather and Joanne must be parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which seems to be what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply. If the topic of the paragraph is "fear," then A works better-or at least as well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the sisters have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne's behavior rather than, perhaps, her mother's insistence. I'm sure we could come up with other contexts as well, but the point is that A and D have different structures because they have different meanings. This test question strikes me as an instance of the sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed earlier in connection with this example, that should not be taught. Even if we teach the rule and also teach that other structures work in different contexts, we are still implying, and inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we've frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules that aren't.
Herb
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I agree that removing the non-restrictive relative makes a
difference, but it does so because the result is a different sentence, with
different expectations. Meaning tends to vary with form so that it’s a truism
that there is no such thing as exact paraphrase. Dwight Bolinger made the
strong claim that there are no syntactic differences without semantic
differences. I might not go quite that far, although if you include pragmatic
and semantic differences the case gets stronger. However, even without the NRRC,
the choice of main clause structures remains fairly open and is determined by
pragmatics. Since English orthography doesn’t mark stress or intonation, these
differences aren’t made explicit in writing, but if the written sentence
represents a spoken sentence with tonic accent on “Joanne’s,” the contrast
would be between Joanne’s fear and Heather’s fear. Perhaps the reason these
written, out-of-context test sentences so often cause problems is that a single
written English sentence represents a variety of different stress and
intonation patterns and therefore distinct sentences with distinct contextual
requirements.
Herb
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan
van Druten
Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based
on obscure rules, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing
"Heather" to "Joanne's fear" causes the reader one second
of adjustment. Try reading the sentence without the interrupting clause. Unlike
her sister Heather, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures. Parallel structures
(such as "unlike x") set up expectations in readers. When the
writer doesn't deliver, it is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the
final note.
On May 29, 2009, at 11:55 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
FYI, I
realize I never revealed the correct answer to the SAT grammar question.
It is D. Joanne (as a noun) must be parallel to Heather (as a noun).
Unlike
her sister Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside if she found
them in the house, Joanne’s fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures.
A. Joanne’s fear kept her from going
anywhere near the creatures
B. Joanne’s fear is what kept her
from going anywhere near the creatures
C. fear is why Joanne had not gone
anywhere near them
D. Joanne was too afraid to go
anywhere near the creatures
E. they scared Joanne too much to go
anywhere near them
I find D possible. I find BCE awkward, but I see nothing
wrong with the sentence as it is. Context would certainly help me to
choose between A and D, but I don’t understand why Heather and Joanne must be
parallel because they are both nouns, regardless of context, which seems to be
what the test question and identifying only D as correct imply. If
the topic of the paragraph is “fear,” then A works better—or at least as
well. Perhaps the passage will be about distinct phobias the sisters
have, or about fear as the reason for Joanne’s behavior rather than, perhaps,
her mother’s insistence. I’m sure we could come up with other contexts as
well, but the point is that A and D have different structures because they have
different meanings. This test question strikes me as an instance of the
sort of rigid rule, like the PAP we discussed earlier in connection with this
example, that should not be taught. Even if we teach the rule and also
teach that other structures work in different contexts, we are still implying,
and inviting our students to infer, that there is a default correct structure.
I do understand that this is a standardized test question and
not a point you were trying to make, which leads to the broader question we’ve
frequently dealt with on this list, the poor level of grammatical knowledge
that leads teachers, editors, employers, and test developers to insist on rules
that aren’t.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 14:30:48 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
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I would echo the thoughts on this one. In my experience, students don't
learn to write without being fully engaged with the writing, and full
engagement doesn't happen without enagaged reader or readers. It's much
more of a mentoring process, and that involves knowing where the
student is and helping guide them along an individualized path.
I was struck by Scott's post about his experience in "dummy English." A
good teacher teaches students, and he was blessed with a teacher who
addressed his needs, not a "remedial" template. With our non-creidt
placements, we have come to feel we are buying time to work with the
student, not giving them anything especially different. The student
writes and teacher responds.
I think it was Robert Lowell who said he could tell everything he knows
about writing in about nine minutes, but it might take you nine years
to learn it.
Some things you can't learn from talking--dance, music, painting,
writing. Sex education class doesn't quite get you there. I'm sure the
list could be extended.
Craig>
Edmond and others,
> Talking is teaching. It seems to me that’s the premise upon which
> school administrators (and probably the general public) base their
> opinion that class size is not a requirement for effective teaching.
> High quality talking, to be sure, equated as Edmond mentions, with
> professional ability. The more charismatic the teacher, the better the
> motivator, the better the results. So increase class size and give
> them a microphone. No personal intervention between teacher and
> students is necessary in this model. On the other hand, if mere
> talking is not teaching, then interaction with students both on their
> essays and in classes becomes a matter of time, and time is reduced as
> numbers grow. Actually and unfortunately, in my opinion, some teachers
> see talking as teaching too.
>
>
> Richard Betting, Prof Emeritus
> Valley City State University
> Valley City, ND
>
>
> On May 30, 2009, at 6:03 AM, Edmond Wright wrote:
>
>>> It is often put about by administrators, school inspectors, and
>>> politicians in
>> discussions concerning teacher numbers in the state schools in
>> Britain is that
>> one can teach a large class as effectively as a small one. It comes
>> with the
>> unspoken implication that the effectiveness depends on the
>> individual teacher's
>> professional ability, and that therefore one has no cause for
>> complaint if faced
>> with 30 plus students. It has, of course, the added advantage of
>> keeping the
>> overall cost of teachers' salaries within bounds, with a lower
>> demand on the
>> taxpayer's pocket.
>>
>> However, for secondary schools particularly, where homework is
>> insisted
>> upon, a key factor is absent from the discussion, namely the number of
>> assignments that one has to mark in 'one's own time'. If one is
>> conscientious in one's marking (for example, to quote one criterion,
>> the
>> endeavouring to match the marking and comment specifically to the
>> student),
>> the time taken is clearly greater for the large classes. The
>> temptation for
>> the less conscientious teacher to rush through the marking -- or to
>> set work
>> that can be quickly marked -- is always present.
>>
>> There is also no reference made to the fact that with a smaller
>> class one
>> can spend more time with individual students.
>>
>> Incidentally, it is also never mentioned in these discussions that
>> those
>> parents who send their children to private schools consider small
>> classes
>> high on their list of requirements, or that those private schools
>> that do
>> have small classes score well on the government's 'league tables' of
>> examination results.
>>
>> Do American high school English teachers have to load their car
>> boots at the
>> end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework
>> books? (It is
>> normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one
>> week, and
>> one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes).
>>
>> Edmond
>>
>>
>> Dr. Edmond Wright
>> 3 Boathouse Court
>> Trafalgar Road
>> Cambridge
>> CB4 1DU
>> England
>>
>> Email: [log in to unmask]
>> Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
>> Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 17:24:47 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size
Comments: To: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>,
"'undisclosed recipients:'"@mulnx11.mcs.muohio.edu
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N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
_____
From: Brad Johnston [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:42 PM
To: undisclosed recipients:
Subject: Class size
My alma mater, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly,
had a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who (had) failed
the English placement exam. I (had) scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor
(had) accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had
to take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I (had)
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week.
~~~~~~~~
Brad,
The writer of the above
( ) has
( ) doesn't have
a 'had' problem.
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N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
From: Brad Johnston
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 9:42 PM
To: undisclosed recipients:
Subject: Class size
My alma mater, whose regular Freshman English
program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who (had) failed the English
placement exam. I (had)
scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor (had) accidentally put my test in
the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to take a non-credit
English class on the same semester as my first Freshman English
class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I (had) learned more in Dummy English
than in regular English because the class size was quite small--around ten
students--and we wrote a theme each day instead of one a week.
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 07:45:13 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
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Edmond,
Most teachers do not assign very much homework, especially writing. When I taught at a public high school in Arizona, three years ago, my students wrote three essays each year. Most of the work was done in class. This was department policy. Another teacher I know assigned an essay every three weeks. He was reprimanded for doing so. His contract was not renewed. At the public high school closest to my charter school, 9th graders in the International Baccalaureate program write one essay per term, three per year, according to my informants.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
--- On Sat, 5/30/09, Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Do American high school English teachers have to load their car boots at the
end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework books? (It is
normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one week, and
one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes).
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
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Edmond,
Most teachers do not assign very much homework, especially writing. When I taught at a public high school in Arizona, three years ago, my students wrote three essays each year. Most of the work was done in class. This was department policy. Another teacher I know assigned an essay every three weeks. He was reprimanded for doing so. His contract was not renewed. At the public high school closest to my charter school, 9th graders in the International Baccalaureate program write one essay per term, three per year, according to my informants.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
Do American high school English teachers have to load their car boots at the end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework books? (It is normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one week, and one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes). Edmond Dr. Edmond Wright 3 Boathouse Court Trafalgar Road Cambridge CB4 1DU England Email: [log in to unmask]" ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]"> [log in to unmask]Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 08:10:30 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Paul,
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
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Paul,
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however, the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater, MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to take a non-credit
English class on the same semester as my first Freshman English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent teacher. Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages. N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus *************************************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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--0-452208744-1243782630=:92607--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 15:21:09 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Scott,
I'm not join this debate because I don't know the research on either side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and much less response to writing.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
Paul,
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Scott,
I’m not join this debate because I don’t know the research on
either side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four
groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a
different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups
of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. Or you
could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much
less writing and much less response to writing.
Herb
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
Special issue (#2009-127)
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a
strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The
research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in
improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing
class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is
little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the
size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in
what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total
students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had
all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me
eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes!
And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a
vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to
the writing classroom.
"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott
<[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma
mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor
had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I
had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I
had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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the list"
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431BF5BEED41EMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 15:45:07 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
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Herb,
Â
I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach four groups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with each group five times each week. I think that I could get better results by meeting with all the groups together on some days and with each group separately on others. This would reduce total student contact hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my contact load and spending that time planning, developing lessons, and responding to writing.Â
Â
Scott
--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
Scott,
Â
I’m not join this debate because I don’t know the research on either side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and much less response to writing.
Â
Herb
Â
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
Â
Paul,
Â
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.Â
Â
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. Â That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Â
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
Â
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Â
Paul E. Doniger
Â
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
Â
Â
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
  http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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Herb,
I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teach four groups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with each group five times each week. I think that I could get better results by meeting with all the groups together on some days and with each group separately on others. This would reduce total student contact hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my contact load and spending that time planning, developing lessons, and responding to writing.
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
To: [log in to unmask]
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
I’m not join this debate because I don’t know the research on either side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week rather than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes me as simply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each group seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing and much less response to writing.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy
English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
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--0-87662824-1243809907=:97903--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 16:39:49 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I have a couple of questions and a comment in response t
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Scott, et al,
I have a couple of questions and a comment in response to this last posting:
1. How much writing do you currently assign to your 112 students?
2. How long does it take to return the graded pieces to the students after they are handed in?
3. What percentage of students are non-compliant with assignments?
4. If the students are only writing three "essays" a year, what other writing are they submitting? Do they write any reading journals, creative pieces, timed pieces, etc.?
5. What is the logic behind this department policy?
I teach in a Connecticut high school, and things are quite different here. We assign much more writing/homework than your Arizona experience. In my school, the average teacher/student ratio in English classes is probably about 1:90 (give or take a few -- BTW: This number is still higher than is recommended by some experts); of course, for me, it is lower being that I am a theatre teacher as well (this year, I have 40 English students -- honors sophomores -- but then, I only have two English classes). In our school, English teachers have four classes a day (45 minute blocks) and one conference period in which we are required to hold 1-on-1 conferences with our students. Even with these smaller numbers, everyone in my department spends LOTS of hours reading and commenting (yes, and grading) student writing, and scrambling to get papers back to students before they grow cobwebs (the papers, not the students). How does one provide meaningful feedback
to 120 or more writing pieces in any timely fashion, unless there are fewer pieces per year (as your Arizona experience suggests)? And of course, the less students write, they less they grow as writers!
The schedule at my school, by the way, is NOT typical in my state, but our students do quite well (state testing, SATs, college acceptances, etc.), and our school is highly rated nationally. Others in Connecticut probably have slightly higher ratios, but from what I can see, smaller numbers seem to produce better results. I remember when I taught in a lower achieving school where teachers typically had five classes with about 30 students in each, the situation was much weaker. We all assigned MUCH less writing. The students did less work, not only because of the more infrequent assignments, but because there were large numbers of students who just didn't do their assignments! I think this situation was probably also a result of class size.
If my memory is correct, Ted Sizer and Alfie Kohn have both written about this issue. Also, I believe that NCTE advocates for lower teacher-student ratios. I can't remember the specific research that I've read since it was quite some time ago, but if I find it, I'll pass it along.
Paul E. Doniger
________________________________
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:45:13 AM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
Edmond,
Most teachers do not assign very much homework, especially writing. When I taught at a public high school in Arizona, three years ago, my students wrote three essays each year. Most of the work was done in class. This was department policy. Another teacher I know assigned an essay every three weeks. He was reprimanded for doing so. His contract was not renewed. At the public high school closest to my charter school, 9th graders in the International Baccalaureate program write one essay per term, three per year, according to my informants.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
--- On Sat, 5/30/09, Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Do American high school English teachers have to load their car boots at the
end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework books? (It is
normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one week, and
one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes).
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3 Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
Cambridge
CB4 1DU
England
Email: [log in to unmask]
Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256
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Scott, et al,
I have a couple of questions and a comment in response to this last posting:
- How much writing do you currently assign to your 112 students?
- How long does it take to return the graded pieces to the students after they are handed in?
- What percentage of students are non-compliant with assignments?
- If the students are only writing three "essays" a year, what other writing are they submitting? Do they write any reading journals, creative pieces, timed pieces, etc.?
- What is the logic behind this department policy?
I teach in a Connecticut high school, and things are quite different here. We assign much more writing/homework than your Arizona experience. In my school, the average teacher/student ratio in English classes is probably about 1:90 (give or take a few -- BTW: This number is still higher than is recommended by some experts); of course, for me, it is lower being that I am a theatre teacher as well (this year, I have 40 English students -- honors sophomores -- but then, I only have two English classes). In our school, English teachers have four classes a day (45 minute blocks) and one conference period in which we are required to hold 1-on-1 conferences with our students. Even with these smaller numbers, everyone in my department spends LOTS of hours reading and commenting (yes, and grading) student writing, and scrambling to get papers back to students before they grow cobwebs (the papers, not the students). How does one provide
meaningful feedback to 120 or more writing pieces in any timely fashion, unless there are fewer pieces per year (as your Arizona experience suggests)? And of course, the less students write, they less they grow as writers!
The schedule at my school, by the way, is NOT typical in my state, but our students do quite well (state testing, SATs, college acceptances, etc.), and our school is highly rated nationally. Others in Connecticut probably have slightly higher ratios, but from what I can see, smaller numbers seem to produce better results. I remember when I taught in a lower achieving school where teachers typically had five classes with about 30 students in each, the situation was much weaker. We all assigned MUCH less writing. The students did less work, not only because of the more infrequent assignments, but because there were large numbers of students who just didn't do their assignments! I think this situation was probably also a result of class size.
If my memory is correct, Ted Sizer and Alfie Kohn have both written about this issue. Also, I believe that NCTE advocates for lower teacher-student ratios. I can't remember the specific research that I've read since it was quite some time ago, but if I find it, I'll pass it along.
Paul E. Doniger
From: Scott Woods <
[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:45:13 AM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
|
Edmond,
Most teachers do not assign very much homework, especially writing. When I taught at a public high school in Arizona, three years ago, my students wrote three essays each year. Most of the work was done in class. This was department policy. Another teacher I know assigned an essay every three weeks. He was reprimanded for doing so. His contract was not renewed. At the public high school closest to my charter school, 9th graders in the International Baccalaureate program write one essay per term, three per year, according to my informants.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
Do American high school English teachers have to load their car boots at the end of the afternoon with three or four piles of 30+ homework books? (It is normal for two sets of homework to be set for each class in one week, and one is likely to be teaching seven or eight classes). Edmond Dr. Edmond Wright 3 Boathouse Court Trafalgar Road Cambridge CB4 1DU England Email: [log in to unmask]" target=_blank rel=nofollow> [log in to unmask]Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
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--0-1861680520-1243813189=:39258--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 17:10:03 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dee Allen-Kirkhouse <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
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Scott,
I have taught in small learning communities at the university level. In remedial classes we had 12 students which gave me ample time to work individually with students on their writing and reading skills. We worked on grammar, vocabulary, writing strategies and critical reading. Students wrote an essay every two weeks; students wrote a rough draft in class, discussed ideas in small groups, typed a first draft, did a peer review, revision and editing before turning in for a final grade. When they moved into the freshman composition classes, the class size was 25 students and writing focused on a variety of rhetorical styles. Again the process allowed for some individual work with students in creating a portfolio of their best work.
Now , in addition to teaching two sections of fresh comp at the local community college--25 students per class, I teach high school classes--33 students per class.
I require an in-class essay every Monday from all 165 students at the high school. Obviously, there are not enough hours in the semester for me to effectively grade and respond to each of those essays. Once a month, students select one of their Monday essays to work on. They discuss the essays in small groups, take them home to type a first draft, and then participate in a peer review. The peer review works sometimes, sometimes not. With each essay, I focus on one element--effective introductions, identifying the use of various sentence-development strategies. At the end of each semester, students select four essays to include in a portfolio for a final grade. I try to meet with each student individually at some point during the semester, but it is very difficult. I begin every class with grammar, vocabulary and a journal entry tied to assigned reading or a topic of discussion.
From my personal experience, I would say that the smaller class size allows for greater student success in developing the skills necessary for both written expression and critical reading. Secondary classes- under the provisions of No Child Left Behind-- are not conducive to helping students meet their full potential. When you put students with special needs in a regular classroom where every student is expected to prepare for a college education and throw in some GATE students for good measure, no one is served. The discipline issues alone can derail the best laid plans, even when there are two or three adults in the classroom.
We have two problems from my perspective: class size and class demographics. We are expecting every child in this country to go on to college, but the reality is that many students would be just as happy pursuing a trade and getting the education necessary to secure a job after high school. Furthermore, in our particular school, students are expected to sit through two-hour classes; I have college students who are sometimes challenged by long classes, but for high school students who are distracted by shiny objects outside the class window, sitting in a classroom for two hours is beyond their attention span. I believe every student has a right to receive an education, but we need to have some major overhaul in the system to achieve that goal.
Dee
----- Original Message -----
From: Scott Woods
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: 5/31/2009 8:12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
Paul,
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however,
the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same semester as my first Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent
teacher.
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my
experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
***************************************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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Scott,
I have taught in small learning communities at the university level. In remedial classes we had 12 students which gave me ample time to work individually with students on their writing and reading skills. We worked on grammar, vocabulary, writing strategies and critical reading. Students wrote an essay every two weeks; students wrote a rough draft in class, discussed ideas in small groups, typed a first draft, did a peer review, revision and editing before turning in for a final grade. When they moved into the freshman composition classes, the class size was 25 students and writing focused on a variety of rhetorical styles. Again the process allowed for some individual work with students in creating a portfolio of their best work.
Now , in addition to teaching two sections of fresh comp at the local community college--25 students per class, I teach high school classes--33 students per class.
I require an in-class essay every Monday from all 165 students at the high school. Obviously, there are not enough hours in the semester for me to effectively grade and respond to each of those essays. Once a month, students select one of their Monday essays to work on. They discuss the essays in small groups, take them home to type a first draft, and then participate in a peer review. The peer review works sometimes, sometimes not. With each essay, I focus on one element--effective introductions, identifying the use of various sentence-development strategies. At the end of each semester, students select four essays to include in a portfolio for a final grade. I try to meet with each student individually at some point during the semester, but it is very difficult. I begin every class with grammar, vocabulary and a journal entry tied to assigned reading or a topic of discussion.
From my personal experience, I would say that the smaller class size allows for greater student success in developing the skills necessary for both written expression and critical reading. Secondary classes- under the provisions of No Child Left Behind-- are not conducive to helping students meet their full potential. When you put students with special needs in a regular classroom where every student is expected to prepare for a college education and throw in some GATE students for good measure, no one is served. The discipline issues alone can derail the best laid plans, even when there are two or three adults in the classroom.
We have two problems from my perspective: class size and class demographics. We are expecting every child in this country to go on to college, but the reality is that many students would be just as happy pursuing a trade and getting the education necessary to secure a job after high school. Furthermore, in our particular school, students are expected to sit through two-hour classes; I have college students who are sometimes challenged by long classes, but for high school students who are distracted by shiny objects outside the class window, sitting in a classroom for two hours is beyond their attention span. I believe every student has a right to receive an education, but we need to have some major overhaul in the system to achieve that goal.
Dee
----- Original Message -----
Sent: 5/31/2009 8:12:04 AM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
|
Paul,
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong link between reducing class size and increasing performance. The research I have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor in improving student performance is changing what teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15 students that much would change in what students know and can do.
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That would give me eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their writing.
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees that class size is a vital component in successful learning. This is especially important to the writing classroom.
Paul E. Doniger
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue (#2009-127)
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid; however, the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant in teaching writing must have been brought up by a school board member. My alma mater, MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praised highly, had a secondary program in basic writing skills for those who had failed the English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but my advisor had accidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, I had to take a non-credit English class on the same s
emester as my first Freshman English class. My advisor apologized to me later but I replied that I had learned more in Dummy English than in regular English because the class size was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme each day instead of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also an excellent teacher. Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in my experience, class size is more important in English composition than in any other academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages. N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus *************************************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leav
e
the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:41:59 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431BF5BEED43EMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:21:03 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured similar
sentences for examinations.
In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I remembered the name correctly),
American High School English do not normally have 6-7 classes; however, the
classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I taught five different
classes of 40 students each with homework required in each subject five days
a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World Geography, Spanish. My
third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, and
World History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped students). My
fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections of English II, Latin I,
Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I). Classes only averaged 25
students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,
homework was only four nights a week. Several of the Latin classes had two
levels in the same room.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure rules, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's fear" causes the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence without the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as "unlike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't deliver, it is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
***********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:35:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
In-Reply-To: <63AD085B861C4831A441F6DA7E72113F@leordinateur>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
There are clearly errors which are appropriate to this technique. All of this started because I objected to one decontextualized sentence on an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this sentence, but I maintain that if standardized test developers are going to use this technique they should at least make sure their test items are not context dependent as this one is. It was a bad test item. The technique itself can be useful, but the example in question demonstrates the kind of problems that can arise. There are whole classes of problem for which the technique works.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have structured similar
sentences for examinations.
In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I remembered the name correctly),
American High School English do not normally have 6-7 classes; however, the
classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I taught five different
classes of 40 students each with homework required in each subject five days
a week (English, mathematics, General Science, World Geography, Spanish. My
third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II, and
World History (the last was for Educable Mentally Handicapped students). My
fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2 sections of English II, Latin I,
Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I). Classes only averaged 25
students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I had started); however,
homework was only four nights a week. Several of the Latin classes had two
levels in the same room.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel structure questions
I agree that some test maker sometimes ask questions based on obscure rules=
, but this one seems fair to me. Comparing "Heather" to "Joanne's fear" ca=
uses the reader one second of adjustment. Try reading the sentence without=
the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister Heather, Joanne's fear kept he=
r from going anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such as "unl=
ike x") set up expectations in readers. When the writer doesn't deliver, i=
t is as unsatisfying as the musician who withholds the final note.
***********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/