A New York Times article,"New Push Seeks to End Need for Pre-College Remedial Classes" ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/28/education/28remedial.html?_r=1), was interesting in light of Susan's recent critique of the focus on "academic" knowledge in high school education. For me, one of Susan's most persuasive points was this: "Students should have to know how to write argumentatively to promote themselves or their causes, but not to lie about why a piece of literature is meaningful because a teacher decides they should believe that." The Times article touches on a similar problem; it opens with an anecdote about a high school graduate taking pre-college remedial courses because, among other problems, her "senior English class...focused on literature, but little on writing."To me, this illustrates that some of the so-called "academic" content that Susan criticizes is just as ill-suited to the needs of future college students as it is to the the needs of future plumbers. Many freshman at my college don't take a literature course, but they all write argumentatively in courses across the curriculum.I think Susan might be right that the "permanent training wheels" some of us have been worried about are the result of high schools' overemphasis version of "academic writing." It seems to be a different version, though, than what I recognize as academic writing in colleges and universities. For example, Susan is probably right that the prohibition on "I" is intended to "prevent beginning writers from being redundant and from weakening the power of their arguments." But, although I've occasionally heard college professors complain about the overabundance of "I think" and "I feel" and though I have even occasionally complained about it myself), I have more often heard and made the complaint that students don't use" I" when appropriate and don't put themselves into their writing in effective ways. If my experience is representative (which, OK, is a big if), and if some high school teachers are banning "I" because they're trying to teach academic writing to "non-academic" students, then those high school teachers must either mean something different from "college writing" or misunderstand what college writing teachers value. (Let me acknowledge that Susan is not one of "those high school teachers"; she's made it clear that she teaches students to use "I" when relating personal experiences.)So, as I think Herb suggested earlier, the problem of training wheel permanence, so to speak, may have a lot to do with lack of communication between high school teachers and college teachers. If both groups could agree on what they mean by "academic writing," or even "good writing," we might be able to lay down clearer paths for students. And I do think that conversations like this can help.Brian_From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten [[log in to unmask]]Sent: Tuesday, June 02, 2009 8:52 PMSubject: Re: levels of formality/training wheels, NOW value of HS educationPeter, I think we should be concerned about teachers who present"training wheels" as real life. However, I think it might be wise toconsider why those teachers do this.My guess is that they are inundated with students who don't ever wantto "ride a bike" in their entire lives, but are forced to act likethey want to "ride a bike" because society values bike-riding overcarpentry, plumbing, or whatever hands-on skill or craft they excelat. In other words, we all have to stop believing that people whocan't write an academic essay shouldn't get a high school diploma.Clearly, the "training wheel" analogy really messes with my point.If anyone is confused, let me be more clear: If we force all 18-year-old human beings to write academically in order to pass high school(or any bar that equates to sentience), then we will produce teacherswho will create stupid short-cuts to get non-academically-inclinedteens to produce something that is tolerable. If playing hockey,instead of academic writing, were the goal for a high school diploma,you can imagine all the coaches telling the non-athletically-inclinedteens that they are good hockey players if they just do their best topass the puck to Lutska.We should rethink what high schools should require and how long astudent should be required to attend (I think 8th grade is a betterminimum). We need to teach math so that students can balance a checkbook and know why carrying a balance on a credit card is stupid.Students should have to know how to write argumentatively to promotethemselves or their causes, but not to lie about why a piece ofliterature is meaningful because a teacher decides they shouldbelieve that.We should value education. But we have to stop only equatingacademics with education. There are plenty of non-academic fieldsthat we need. After all, most academic jobs could be shippedoverseas, but we need to have "in-house" plumbers.SusanOn Jun 2, 2009, at 6:49 PM, Peter Adams wrote:The argument Susan makes for banning the use of first person strikesme as a perfect example of training wheels. There is a possibleconstruction involving first person that we might prefer studentsavoid. Rather than teach students to avoid that construction, wesimply ban all uses of first person.That bothers me.Peter AdamsOn Jun 2, 2009, at 6:59 PM, Susan van Druten wrote:One of the reasons for the ban on first person in essays is toprevent beginning writers from being redundant and from weakeningthe power of their arguments. "I believe," "I feel," and "I think"shouldn't preface every idea expressed. I tell my students to usefirst person only when relating personal experiences in their essays.SusanOn Jun 2, 2009, at 10:23 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:Peter,Contractions are a routine part of all the formal writing I do. Ihaveyet to have an editor object. I edited a literary magazine throughfourissues and never took issue with it.I would also take issue with the idea that all our ideas should beimpersonal and/or expressed in impersonal ways. That may be areasonable goal in many of the sciences--it doesn't matter, Isuppose,who keeps a specimen at 80 degrees for three hours--but I can't forthelife of me separate my understanding of teaching writing from my ownschooling or the wealth of my experiences in the classroom. I don'thave "logical" views about it separate from my values andexperiences.It seems silly for me to say "When one teaches educationalopportunityprogram students for twenty-three years" when I'm trying tocharacterize my own background. Other people may have opinions aboutit, but I have a perspective. It seems to me that asking students toavoid "I" in subjects like this means we are asking them to avoidbeinghonest about where their views are coming from. This alsoshortchangesthe dialectical nature of most writing. If a student has grown upwitha hunting rifle in his hands and another has seen someone shot by afellow teenager on a playground, they will be unable to talk unlessthose differing experiences can be acknowledged as legitimate.We are not logical machines, and most subjects don't benefit frompretending to leave our values and experiences at the door. Quiteoften, the "reasons" we give for our beliefs are after the fact.CraigI've never understood some teachers' constraints on first person,so Ilook forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students that theyshouldn't use them in very formal writing or when writing to anaudience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them I'venever written anything in my life that was so formal that I avoidedcontractions. Where do others stand on this?Peter AdamsOn Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:In requiring students to write some papers in "formal English," Ioften come across some gray areas. My tendancy is to be somewhatconservative about formal language. I wonder where others drawlines regarding levels of formality. For example, some of mystudents use words that seem too informal to me, like"morph" (verbform). Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first personbefore, but I think it is sometimes valuable to challenge studentsto write persuasive pieces that avoid using the first personaltogether. Where do the rest of you stand on such issues?Thanks,Paul E. Doniger"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as animprobable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PMSubject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -Special issue (#2009-127)Herb,I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English, I teachfourgroups of students for a total of 112 students. I meet with eachgroup five times each week. I think that I could get betterresultsby meeting with all the groups together on some days and with eachgroup separately on others. This would reduce total studentcontacthours for me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours perweek next year (I teach other classes as well), I would benefitfromreducing my contact load and spending that time planning,developinglessons, and responding to writing.Scott--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote:From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -Special issue (#2009-127)Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PMScott,I’m not join this debate because I don’t know the research oneitherside, but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week ratherthanfour groups of 28 students twice a week for each group strikes meassimply a different way of handling the same student-teacher ratio.Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for each groupseems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four groupsof 42 or 56 students. The result would be much less writing andmuch less response to writing.HerbFrom: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar] On Behalf Of Scott WoodsSent: 2009-05-31 11:11Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -Special issue (#2009-127)Paul,I would be interested in seeing research that shows a strong linkbetween reducing class size and increasing performance. TheresearchI have seen strongly suggests that the most important factor inimproving student performance is changing what teachers do.Reducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption in aclass,but there is little research base (that I have seen) to suggestthatif we reduced the size of every class in the country to 15studentsthat much would change in what students know and can do.As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer total students,but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice a week, Ihadall 112 of my students in a lecture hall together. That wouldgiveme eight hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to theirwriting.Scott WoodsBASIS Scottsdale--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]Yes! And all research in education that I've ever seen agrees thatclass size is a vital component in successful learning. This isespecially important to the writing classroom.Paul E. Doniger"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as animprobable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PMSubject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -Special issue (#2009-127)I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark as stupid;however,the list member who indicated that class size was irrelevant inteachingwriting must have been brought up by a school board member. Myalmamater,MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have praisedhighly, hada secondary program in basic writing skills for those who hadfailedtheEnglish placement exam. I had scored a 100 in the exam but myadvisor hadaccidentally put my test in the "Dummy English" pile; therefore, Ihad totake a non-credit English class on the same semester as my firstFreshmanEnglish class. My advisor apologized to me later but I repliedthatI hadlearned more in Dummy English than in regular English because theclass sizewas quite small--around ten students--and we wrote a theme eachdayinsteadof one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class was also anexcellentteacher.Having taught across the academic curriculum, I can aver that, inmyexperience, class size is more important in English compositionthanin anyother academic class, including mathematics and foreign languages.N. 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