I swear by Joos’s The Five Clocks and required all
English teachers in training to buy one.
If they could not afford one, I “found”
extra copies and gave them to the needy.
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
history & languages
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 10:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 31 May 2009 to 1 Jun 2009 - Special issue (#2009-131)
There are 15 messages totalling 10175 lines in this
issue.
Topics in this special issue:
1. levels of formality (5)
2. training wheels (4)
3. Parallel structure and homework; ATEG Digest - 29
May 2009 to 30 May 2009
(#2009-129) (5)
4. Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:01:43 -0700
From: "Paul E. Doniger"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: levels of formality
--0-522842566-1243861303=:65149
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In requiring students to write some papers in
"formal English," I often com=
e across some gray areas.=C2=A0 My tendancy is to be
somewhat conservative =
about formal language.=C2=A0 I wonder where others
draw lines regarding lev=
els of formality.=C2=A0 For example, some of my
students use words that see=
m too informal to me, like "morph" (verb
form).=C2=A0 Also, I know we have =
discussed the use of the first person before, but I
think it is sometimes v=
aluable to challenge students to write persuasive
pieces that avoid using t=
he first person altogether. Where=C2=A0do the rest of
you stand on such iss=
ues?=0A=0AThanks,=0A=0APaul
stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.=
4.127-128).
=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AFrom: Scott W=
oods <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo:
[log in to unmask]: Sunday,=
May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM=0ASubject: Re: Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 200=
9 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue
(#2009-127)=0A=0A=0AHerb,=0A=0AI wasn't cl=
ear.=C2=A0 Currently,=C2=A0for seventh grade
English,=C2=A0I teach four gro=
ups of students for a total of 112 students.=C2=A0 I
meet with each group f=
ive times each week.=C2=A0 I think that I could get
better results by meeti=
ng with all the groups together on some days and with
each group separately=
on others. This would reduce total student contact
hours for me, but not f=
or them.=C2=A0 With 28 total contact hours per week
next year (I teach othe=
r classes as well), I would benefit from reducing my
contact load and spend=
ing that time planning, developing lessons, and
responding to writing.=C2=
=A0 =0A=0AScott=0A=0A--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE,
HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]
EDU> wrote:=0A=0A=0AFrom: STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]>=0ASubject: =
Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May
2009 - Special issue (#2=
009-127)=0ATo: [log in to unmask]:
Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 =
PM=0A=0A=0AScott,=0A=C2=A0=0AI=E2=80=99m not join this
debate because I don=
=E2=80=99t know the research on either side, but
meeting one group of 112 s=
tudents twice a week rather than four groups of 28
students twice a week fo=
r each group strikes me as simply a different way of
handling the same stud=
ent-teacher ratio.=C2=A0 Meeting four groups of 112
students twice a week f=
or each group seems a more apt contrast.=C2=A0 Or you
could lower that to f=
our groups of 42 or 56 students.=C2=A0 The result
would be much less writin=
g and much less response to writing. =0A=C2=A0 =0AHerb
=0A=C2=A0 =0AFrom:As=
sembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
] On Behalf Of Scott Woods=0ASent: 2009-05-31
11:11=0ATo: [log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU=0ASubject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May
2009 to 29 May 2009 =
- Special issue (#2009-127)=0A=C2=A0 =0APaul,=0A=C2=A0=0AI
would be interes=
ted in seeing research that shows a strong link
between reducing class size=
and increasing performance.=C2=A0The research I have
seen strongly suggest=
s that the most important factor in improving student
performance is changi=
ng what teachers do.=C2=A0 Reducing class size can
reduce the amount of dis=
ruption in a class, but there is little research base
(that I have seen) to=
suggest that if we reduced the size of every class in
the country to 15 st=
udents that much would change in what students know
and can do.=C2=A0 =0A=
=C2=A0=0AAs an English teacher, I would prefer having
fewer total students,=
but I could probably teach as well if, at least twice
a week, I had all 11=
2 of my students in a lecture hall together. =C2=A0That
would give me eight=
hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their
writing. =0A=C2=A0=0A=
Scott Woods=0ABASIS
oniger <[log in to unmask]> wrote:=0A=0AFrom:
Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
NET=0A=0A=0AYes! And all research in education that
I've ever seen agrees t=
hat class size is a vital component in successful
learning.=C2=A0 This is e=
specially important to the writing classroom.
=0A=C2=A0=0APaul
=0A=C2=A0=0A"If this were play'd upon a stage
now, I could condemn it as an=
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).=0A=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A=
________________________________=0A=0AFrom:Scott
<[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: AT=
[log in to unmask]: Friday, May 29, 2009
8:30:56 PM=0ASubject: R=
e: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#20=
09-127)=0A=0AI too am normally reluctant to classify a
remark as stupid; ho=
wever,=0Athe list member who indicated that class size
was irrelevant in te=
aching=0Awriting must have been brought up by a school
board member.=C2=A0 =
My alma mater,=0AMSC, whose regular Freshman English
program I have praised=
highly, had=0Aa secondary program in basic writing
skills for those who ha=
d failed the=0AEnglish placement exam.=C2=A0 I had
scored a 100 in the exam=
but my advisor had=0Aaccidentally put my test in the
"Dummy English" pile;=
therefore, I had to=0Atake a non-credit English class
on the same semester=
as my first Freshman=0AEnglish class.=C2=A0 My
advisor apologized to me la=
ter but I replied that I had=0Alearned more in Dummy
English than in regula=
r English because the class size=0Awas quite
small--around ten students--an=
d we wrote a theme each day instead=0Aof one a
week.=C2=A0 The professor in=
the Dummy Class was also an
excellent=0Ateacher.=0A=0AHaving taught across=
the academic curriculum, I can aver that, in
my=0Aexperience, class size i=
s more important in English composition than in
any=0Aother academic class,=
including mathematics and foreign languages.=0A=0AN.
Scott Catledge, PhD/S=
TD=0AProfessor
Emeritus=0A=0A**********************************************=
*****************************=0A=0ATo join or leave
this LISTSERV list, ple=
ase visit the list's web interface at:=0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0
http://listserv.muoh=
io.edu/archives/ateg.html=0Aand select "Join or
leave the list"=0A=0AVisit =
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0ATo join or leave
this LISTSERV list, =
please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv=
es/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site a=
t http://ateg.org/ =0A=0ATo join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit =
the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html =
and select "Join or leave the list" =0AVisit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg=
.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web inter=
face at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or =
leave the list" =0AVisit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/ =0ATo join or=
leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http:/=
/listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"=
=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-522842566-1243861303=:65149
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><head><style
type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div
style=3D"font-family:bookman old style,
f;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>In
requiring students to write some pa=
pers in "formal English," I often come
across some gray areas. My ten=
dancy is to be somewhat conservative about formal
language. I wonder =
where others draw lines regarding levels of
formality. For example, s=
ome of my students use words that seem too informal to
me, like "morph" (ve=
rb form). Also, I know we have discussed the
use of the first person =
before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to
challenge students to write=
persuasive pieces that avoid using the first person
altogether. Where =
;do the rest of you stand on such
issues?</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>=
Thanks,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Paul
E. Doniger<BR> </DIV><FO=
NT size=3D2>"If this were play'd upon a stage
now, I could condemn it as an=
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</FONT>=0A<DIV><BR></DIV=
>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt;
FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style,
, times, serif"><BR>=0A<DIV
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times ne=
w roman,
=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Scott
Woods &=
lt;[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</S=
PAN></B>
[log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT:
bold">S=
ent:</SPAN></B> Sunday, May 31, 2009
6:45:07 PM<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-W=
EIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B>
Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 t=
o 29 May 2009 - Special issue
(#2009-127)<BR></FONT><BR>=0A<TABLE cellSpaci=
ng=3D0 cellPadding=3D0
border=3D0>=0A<TBODY>=0A<TR>=0A<TD vAlign=3Dtop>=0A<=
DIV>Herb,</DIV>=0A<DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>I
wasn't clear. Currently,=
for seventh grade English, I teach
four groups of students for a=
total of 112 students. I meet with each
group five times each week.&=
nbsp; I think that I could get better results by
meeting with all the group=
s together on some days and with each group separately
on others. This woul=
d reduce total student contact hours for me, but not
for them. With 2=
8 total contact hours per week next year (I teach
other classes as well), I=
would benefit from reducing my contact load and
spending that time plannin=
g, developing lessons, and responding to
writing. </DIV>=0A<DIV> =
;</DIV>=0A<DIV>Scott<BR><BR>---
On <B>Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <I>&=
lt;[log in to unmask]></I></B>
wrote:<BR></DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE style=3D"PAD=
DING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT:
rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><B=
R>From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]><BR>Subject: Re: Class s=
ize ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue (#2009-127)<BR=
>To: [log in to unmask]<BR>Date:
Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM<BR><BR=
>=0A<DIV
id=3Dyiv1500704068>=0A<STYLE>=0A<!--=0A#yiv1500704068 =0A _filter=
ed #yiv1500704068 {font-family:"Cambria
Math";panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;=
}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068
{font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3=
2 4;}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068
{font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5=
4 4 2 4;}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068 {font-family:"Bookman
Old Style";pano=
se-1:2 5 6 4 5 5 5 2 2 4;}=0A#yiv1500704068
=0A#yiv1500704068 p.MsoNormal,=
#yiv1500704068 li.MsoNormal, #yiv1500704068
div.MsoNormal=0A=09{margin:0in=
;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times
New Roman", "ser=
if";}=0A#yiv1500704068 a:link, #yiv1500704068
span.MsoHyperlink=0A=09{color=
:blue;text-decoration:underline;}=0A#yiv1500704068
a:visited, #yiv150070406=
8 span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed=0A=09{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}=
=0A#yiv1500704068
p=0A=09{margin-right:0in;margin-left:0in;font-size:12.0pt=
;font-family:"Times New Roman",
"serif";}=0A#yiv1500704068 span.EmailStyle1=
8=0A=09{font-family:"Calibri",
"sans-serif";color:#1F497D;}=0A#yiv150070406=
8 .MsoChpDefault=0A=09{}=0A_filtered #yiv1500704068
{margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0=
in 1.0in;}=0A#yiv1500704068
div.Section1=0A=09{}=0A-->=0A</STYLE>=0A=0A<DIV=
class=3DSection1>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; C=
OLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',
'sans-serif'">Scott,</SPAN></P></DIV=
>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FO=
NT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',
'sans-serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMs=
oNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calib=
ri', 'sans-serif'">I=E2=80=99m not join this
debate because I don=E2=80=99t=
know the research on either side, but meeting one
group of 112 students tw=
ice a week rather than four groups of 28 students
twice a week for each gro=
up strikes me as simply a different way of handling
the same student-teache=
r ratio. Meeting four groups of 112 students
twice a week for each gr=
oup seems a more apt contrast. Or you could
lower that to four groups=
of 42 or 56 students. The result would be
much less writing and much=
less response to writing.</SPAN> =0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FO=
NT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',
'sans-serif'"> =
</SPAN> =0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f4=
97d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',
'sans-serif'">Herb</SPAN> =0A<P class=3DMsoNor=
mal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',=
'sans-serif'"> </SPAN>
=0A<DIV style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PA=
DDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING=
-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-TOP:
3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: me=
dium none">=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-=
FAMILY: 'Tahoma',
'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 1=
0pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'">
Assembly for the Teaching of Eng=
lish Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Scott Wo=
ods<BR><B>Sent:</B> 2009-05-31
11:11<BR><B>To:</B> [log in to unmask]
<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009=
- Special issue
(#2009-127)</SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal> =
=0A<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable cellSpacing=3D0
cellPadding=3D0 border=3D=
0>=0A<TBODY>=0A<TR>=0A<TD
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; P=
ADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; PADDING-TOP: 0in"
vAlign=3Dtop>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMs=
oNormal>Paul,</P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<=
DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>I would be
interested in seeing research that s=
hows a strong link between reducing class size and
increasing performance.&=
nbsp;The research I have seen strongly suggests that
the most important fac=
tor in improving student performance is changing what
teachers do. Re=
ducing class size can reduce the amount of disruption
in a class, but there=
is little research base (that I have seen) to suggest
that if we reduced t=
he size of every class in the country to 15 students
that much would change=
in what students know and can do.
</P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMs=
oNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal>As an English teach=
er, I would prefer having fewer total students, but I
could probably teach =
as well if, at least twice a week, I had all 112 of my
students in a lectur=
e hall together. That would give me eight
hours of extra time to resp=
ond thoughtfully to their writing.
</P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNorma=
l> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal>Scott Woods</P></DIV>=0A<=
DIV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal>BASIS
=3DMsoNormal> </P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><BR>--- On <B>=
Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger
<I><[log in to unmask]></I></B> wrote:</=
P></DIV>=0A<BLOCKQUOTE
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0=
in; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-TOP: 5pt;
PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-BOT=
TOM: 5pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; MARGIN-LEFT: 3.75pt;
BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 1.=
5pt solid; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium
none">=0A<P class=3DMsoN=
ormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM:
12pt"><BR>From: Paul E. Doniger <A href=3D"ht=
tp:[log in to unmask]"
target=3D_b=
lank
rel=3Dnofollow>[log in to unmask]</A><BR><BR>=0A<DIV
id=3Dyiv469038085>=
=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookma=
n Old Style', 'serif'">Yes! And all research
in education that I've ever se=
en agrees that class size is a vital component in
successful learning. =
; This is especially important to the writing
classroom. </SPAN></P></DIV><=
/DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman O=
ld Style',
'serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoN=
ormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman
Old Style', 'serif'">Paul E. Don=
iger<BR> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-=
SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style',
'serif'">"If this were play'd=
upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth N=
ight_ 3.4.127-128).</SPAN><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookman Old Style', =
'serif'"> </SPAN>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY=
: 'Bookman Old Style',
'serif'"> </SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<P
class=
=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:
'Bookman Old Style', 'serif'">&nbs=
p;</SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<DIV>=0A<DIV
class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: c=
enter" align=3Dcenter><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma'=
, 'sans-serif'">=0A<HR align=3Dcenter
width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D1>=0A</SPAN></D=
IV>=0A<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma',
'sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FON=
T-FAMILY: 'Tahoma', 'sans-serif'"> Scott
<[log in to unmask]><BR><B>To:<=
/B>
[log in to unmask]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, May 29, 2009
8:30:56 P=
M<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 200=
9 - Special issue
(#2009-127)<BR></SPAN><SPAN style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Bookma=
n Old Style', 'serif'"><BR>I too am
normally reluctant to classify a remark=
as stupid; however,<BR>the list member who
indicated that class size was i=
rrelevant in teaching<BR>writing must have been
brought up by a school boar=
d member. My alma mater,<BR>MSC, whose
regular Freshman English progr=
am I have praised highly, had<BR>a secondary
program in basic writing skill=
s for those who had failed the<BR>English
placement exam. I had score=
d a 100 in the exam but my advisor
had<BR>accidentally put my test in the "=
Dummy
English" pile; therefore, I had to<BR>take
a non-credit English class on t=
he same semester as my first Freshman<BR>English
class. My advisor ap=
ologized to me later but I replied that I
had<BR>learned more in Dummy Engl=
ish than in regular English because the class
size<BR>was quite small--arou=
nd ten students--and we wrote a theme each day
instead<BR>of one a week.&nb=
sp; The professor in the Dummy Class was also an
excellent<BR>teacher.<BR><=
BR>Having taught across the academic curriculum, I
can aver that, in my<BR>=
experience, class size is more important in English
composition than in any=
<BR>other academic class, including mathematics
and foreign languages.<BR><=
BR>N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<BR>Professor
Emeritus<BR><BR>****************=
***********************************************************<BR><BR>To
join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at:<BR>&=
nbsp; <A
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html"
target=3D_blank
rel=3Dnofollow>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.ht=
ml</A><BR>and select "Join or leave
the list"<BR><BR>Visit ATEG's web site =
at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/"
target=3D_blank rel=3Dnofollow>http://ateg.=
org/</A></SPAN></P></DIV>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LIST=
SERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio=
.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list" =0A<DIV>=0A<P c=
lass=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</P></DIV></BLOCK=
QUOTE></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>=0A<P
class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN style=3D"FONT=
-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',
'sans-serif'"><BR>To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.=
muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list" </SPAN>=
=0A<DIV>Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/</DIV>To join or leave thi=
s LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.=
muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list" =0A<DIV>V=
isit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></TD></TR></TBO=
DY></TABLE><BR>To join or leave this
LISTSERV list, please visit the list's=
web interface at:
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"Join or leave the list" =0A<P>Visit
ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</=
P></DIV></DIV></div></body></html>
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<p>
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--0-522842566-1243861303=:65149--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:39:15 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
--Apple-Mail-6--731617033
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charset=WINDOWS-1252;
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I've never understood some teachers' constraints on
first person, so I
look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students
that they
shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when
writing to an
audience that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also
tell them I've
never written anything in my life that was so formal
that I avoided
contractions. Where do others stand on this?
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
> In requiring students to write some papers in
"formal English," I
> often come across some gray areas. My tendancy
is to be somewhat
> conservative about formal language. I wonder
where others draw
> lines regarding levels of formality. For example,
some of my
> students use words that seem too informal to me,
like "morph" (verb
> form). Also, I know we have discussed the use of
the first person
> before, but I think it is sometimes valuable to
challenge students
> to write persuasive pieces that avoid using the
first person
> altogether. Where do the rest of you stand on
such issues?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I
could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).
>
>
> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009
to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
> Herb,
>
> I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade
English, I teach four
> groups of students for a total of 112 students.
I meet with each
> group five times each week. I think that I could
get better results
> by meeting with all the groups together on some
days and with each
> group separately on others. This would reduce
total student contact
> hours for me, but not for them. With 28 total
contact hours per
> week next year (I teach other classes as well), I
would benefit from
> reducing my contact load and spending that time
planning, developing
> lessons, and responding to writing.
>
> Scott
>
> --- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009
to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
>
> Scott,
>
>
> I=92m not join this debate because I don=92t know
the research on either=
> side, but meeting one group of 112 students twice
a week rather than
> four groups of 28 students twice a week for each
group strikes me as
> simply a different way of handling the same
student-teacher ratio.
> Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week
for each group
> seems a more apt contrast. Or you could lower
that to four groups
> of 42 or 56 students. The result would be much
less writing and
> much less response to writing.
>
>
> Herb
>
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar [mailto:ATEG@LISTSERV=
.MUOHIO.EDU
> ] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
> Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009
to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
>
> Paul,
>
>
>
> I would be interested in seeing research that
shows a strong link
> between reducing class size and increasing
performance. The research
> I have seen strongly suggests that the most
important factor in
> improving student performance is changing what
teachers do.
> Reducing class size can reduce the amount of
disruption in a class,
> but there is little research base (that I have
seen) to suggest that
> if we reduced the size of every class in the
country to 15 students
> that much would change in what students know and
can do.
>
>
>
> As an English teacher, I would prefer having
fewer total students,
> but I could probably teach as well if, at least
twice a week, I had
> all 112 of my students in a lecture hall
together. That would give
> me eight hours of extra time to respond
thoughtfully to their writing.
>
>
>
> Scott Woods
>
> BASIS
>
>
>
>
> --- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
> From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
>
>
> Yes! And all research in education that I've ever
seen agrees that
> class size is a vital component in successful
learning. This is
> especially important to the writing classroom.
>
>
>
> Paul E. Doniger
>
>
> "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I
could condemn it as an
> improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009
to 29 May 2009 -
> Special issue (#2009-127)
>
> I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark
as stupid; however,
> the list member who indicated that class size was
irrelevant in
> teaching
> writing must have been brought up by a school
board member. My
> mater,
> MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I
have praised highly, had
> a secondary program in basic writing skills for
those who had failed
> the
> English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in
the exam but my
> advisor had
> accidentally put my test in the "Dummy
English" pile; therefore, I
> had to
> take a non-credit English class on the same
semester as my first
> Freshman
> English class. My advisor apologized to me later
but I replied that
> I had
> learned more in Dummy English than in regular
English because the
> class size
> was quite small--around ten students--and we
wrote a theme each day
> instead
> of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class
was also an excellent
> teacher.
>
> Having taught across the academic curriculum, I
can aver that, in my
> experience, class size is more important in
English composition than
> in any
> other academic class, including mathematics and
foreign languages.
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
>
>
************************************************************************=
***
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
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> select "Join or leave the list"
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>
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--Apple-Mail-6--731617033
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -web=
kit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I've
never understood some teachers'=
constraints on first person, so I look forward to
reading the replies to=
Paul's
post.<div><br></div><div>I also wonder about
contractions. I=
tell my students that they shouldn't use them in very
formal writing or=
when writing to an audience that thinks they
shouldn't be used. I=
also tell them I've never written anything in my life
that was so formal=
that I avoided contractions. Where do
others stand on this?<br><div=
><br></div><div>Peter
Adams</div><div><br><div><div>On Jun 1, 2009, at
9:0=
1 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:</div><br
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">=
<blockquote type=3D"cite"><span
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border=
-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family:
Helvetica; font-siz=
e: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; le=
tter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2;
text-align: auto;=
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: 2;=
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing:
0px; -webkit-border=
-vertical-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-=
text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0;
"><div><div style=3D=
"font-family: 'bookman old style', '
pt; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:=
0px; margin-left: 0px; "></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-righ=
t: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">In requiring students to=
write some papers in "formal English," I
often come across some gray area=
s. My tendancy is to be somewhat
conservative about formal language.=
I wonder where others draw lines regarding
levels of formality.&nbs=
p; For example, some of my students use words that
seem too informal to me=
, like "morph" (verb form). Also,
I know we have discussed the use=
of the first person before, but I think it is
sometimes valuable to chall=
enge students to write persuasive pieces that avoid
using the first person=
altogether. Where do the rest of you stand
on such issues?</div><div=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "> </div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;=
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"margin=
-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">&nbs=
p;</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:=
0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Paul E.
Doniger<br> </div><font size=3D"2">=
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
condemn it as an improbable=
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</font><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; "><br></div=
><div style=3D"font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'bookman old style', 'new yor=
k', times, serif; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;=
margin-left: 0px; "><br><div
style=3D"font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'time=
s new roman', '
; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"=
><hr size=3D"1"><b><span
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">From:</span></b><sp=
an class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott
Woods <<a href=3D=
"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br><b><span=
style=3D"font-weight: bold;
">To:</span></b><span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space"> </span><a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG@LIS=
TSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><br><b><span
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Sent:</span=
></b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Sunday, May
31, 20=
09 6:45:07 PM<br><b><span
style=3D"font-weight: bold; ">Subject:</span></b=
><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: Class
size ATEG Di=
gest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue
(#2009-127)<br></font><b=
r><table cellspacing=3D"0"
cellpadding=3D"0"
border=3D"0"><tbody><tr><td=
valign=3D"top"><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-b=
ottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">Herb,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; "> </div><d=
iv style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin=
-left: 0px; ">I wasn't clear.
Currently, for seventh grade Engl=
ish, I teach four groups of students for a
total of 112 students.&nbs=
p; I meet with each group five times each
week. I think that I could=
get better results by meeting with all the groups
together on some days=
and with each group separately on others. This would
reduce total student=
contact hours for me, but not for them.
With 28 total contact hours=
per week next year (I teach other classes as well), I
would benefit from=
reducing my contact load and spending that time
planning, developing less=
ons, and responding to
writing. </div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; "> </div><d=
iv style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin=
-left: 0px; ">Scott<br><br>---
On<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nb=
sp;</span><b>Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE,
HERBERT F<span class=3D"Apple-converte=
d-space"> </span><i><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">hstahlke@=
BSU.EDU</a>></i></b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>=
wrote:<br></div><blockquote
style=3D"padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px;=
border-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255);
border-left-width: 2px; border-left-=
style: solid; "><br>From: STAHLKE,
HERBERT F <<a href=3D"mailto:hstahlk=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject:
Re: Class size ATEG Digest=
- 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special issue
(#2009-127)<br>To:<span clas=
s=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]
UOHIO.EDU">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date:
Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:2=
1 PM<br><br><div
id=3D"yiv1500704068" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-rig=
ht: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><div class=3D"Section1"=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-left=
: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; "><span sty=
le=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-family: Calibri, sans=
-serif;
">Scott,</span></p></div><div
style=3D"margin-right: 0in; margin-l=
eft: 0in; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New
Roman', serif; "><span=
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73,
125); font-family: Calibri,=
sans-serif; "> </span><br
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><=
/div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color:
rgb(31,=
73, 125); font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
">I=92m not join this debate=
because I don=92t know the research on either side,
but meeting one group=
of 112 students twice a week rather than four groups
of 28 students twice=
a week for each group strikes me as simply a
different way of handling th=
e same student-teacher ratio. Meeting four
groups of 112 students tw=
ice a week for each group seems a more apt
contrast. Or you could lo=
wer that to four groups of 42 or 56
students. The result would be mu=
ch less writing and much less response to
writing.</span></p><div><span st=
yle=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);
font-family: Calibri, san=
s-serif; "> </span><br
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p cl=
ass=3D"MsoNormal"><span
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);=
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;
">Herb</span></p><div><span style=3D"fo=
nt-size: 11pt; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
Calibri, sans-serif;=
"> </span><br
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div style=3D=
"border-right-width: medium; border-right-style:
none; border-right-color:=
initial; padding-right: 0in; border-top-color:
rgb(181, 196, 223); border=
-top-width: 1pt; border-top-style: solid;
padding-left: 0in; padding-botto=
m: 0in; border-left-width: medium; border-left-style:
none; border-left-co=
lor: initial; padding-top: 3pt; border-bottom-width:
medium; border-bottom=
-style: none; border-bottom-color: initial;
margin-top: 0px; margin-right:=
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><s=
pan style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family:
Tahoma, sans-serif; ">From:</sp=
an></b><span style=3D"font-size:
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; ">=
<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Assembly
for the Teachi=
ng of English Grammar [<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:=
[log in to unmask]</a>]<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> <=
/span><b>On Behalf Of<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span></=
b>Scott
Woods<br><b>Sent:</b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> <=
/span>2009-05-31
11:11<br><b>To:</b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=
</span><a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
HIO.EDU</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> =
</span>Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009
to 29 May 2009 - Special=
issue
(#2009-127)</span></p></div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"> <table cla=
ss=3D"MsoNormalTable"
cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0"
border=3D"0"><tb=
ody><tr><td valign=3D"top"
style=3D"padding-right: 0in; padding-left: 0in;=
padding-bottom: 0in; padding-top: 0in;
"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;=
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; "><p class=3D"Ms=
oNormal">Paul,</p></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;=
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px=
; margin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal">I would be interested in seei=
ng research that shows a strong link between reducing
class size and incre=
asing performance. The research I have seen
strongly suggests that th=
e most important factor in improving student
performance is changing what=
teachers do. Reducing class size can reduce
the amount of disruptio=
n in a class, but there is little research base (that
I have seen) to sugg=
est that if we reduced the size of every class in the
country to 15 studen=
ts that much would change in what students know and
can do. </p></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; mar=
gin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div
style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; "><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">As an English
teacher, I would prefer having fewer to=
tal students, but I could probably teach as well if,
at least twice a week=
, I had all 112 of my students in a lecture hall
together. That woul=
d give me eight hours of extra time to respond
thoughtfully to their writi=
ng.</p></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bott=
om: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-l=
eft: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal">Scott Woods</p></div><div
style=3D"marg=
in-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; "><p=
class=3D"MsoNormal">BASIS
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; "><p class=
=3D"MsoNormal"> </p></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right=
: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><br>=
--- On<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>Fri,
5/29/09,=
Paul E. Doniger<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><i><=
<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><spa=
n
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:</p></div><blockquote=
style=3D"border-right-width: medium;
border-right-style: none; border-rig=
ht-color: initial; padding-right: 0in;
border-top-width: medium; border-to=
p-style: none; border-top-color: initial; margin-top:
5pt; padding-left:=
4pt; margin-bottom: 5pt; padding-bottom: 0in;
margin-left: 3.75pt; border=
-left-color: rgb(16, 16, 255); border-left-width:
1.5pt; border-left-style=
: solid; padding-top: 0in; border-bottom-width:
medium; border-bottom-styl=
e: none; border-bottom-color: initial; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"m=
argin-bottom: 12pt; "><br>From: Paul E.
Doniger<span class=3D"Apple-conver=
ted-space"> </span><a
href=3D"http://us.mc513.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compo=
[log in to unmask]"
target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow">pdoniger@SNE=
T.NET</a><br><br></p><div
id=3D"yiv469038085" style=3D"margin-top: 0px; ma=
rgin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><div style=3D"mar=
gin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; "><=
div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margi=
n-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman=
Old Style', serif; ">Yes! And all research in
education that I've ever se=
en agrees that class size is a vital component in
successful learning.&nbs=
p; This is especially important to the writing
classroom.</span></p></div>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px=
; margin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:=
'Bookman Old Style', serif;
"> </span></p></div></div><div
style=3D"=
margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom:
0px; margin-left: 0px;=
"><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman
Old Style',=
serif; ">Paul E.
Doniger<br> </span></p></div><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"=
><span style=3D"font-size: 10pt;
font-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;=
">"If this were play'd upon a stage now,
I could condemn it as an improba=
ble fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</span><span style=3D"font-fami=
ly: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;
"></span></p><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px=
; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; "><p class=3D"M=
soNormal"><span style=3D"font-family:
'Bookman Old Style', serif; "> =
</span></p></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-=
bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><p
class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"fon=
t-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;
"> </span></p></div><div style=
=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><div class=3D"MsoNormal"
align=3D"center" style=3D"text-align: cen=
ter; margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:=
0px; "><span style=3D"font-size:
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;=
"><hr align=3D"center"
width=3D"100%" size=3D"1"></span></div><p
class=3D=
"MsoNormal"><b><span
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-s=
erif; ">From:</span></b><span
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahom=
a, sans-serif; "><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Scott=
<<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br><b>To:<=
/b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
href=3D"mailto:AT=
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br><b>Sent:</b><span=
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>Friday,
May 29, 2009 8:30:56=
PM<br><b>Subject:</b><span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space"> </span>R=
e: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2=
009-127)<br></span><span
style=3D"font-family: 'Bookman Old Style', serif;=
"><br>I too am normally reluctant to
classify a remark as stupid; however=
,<br>the list member who indicated that class
size was irrelevant in teach=
ing<br>writing must have been brought up by a
school board member. =
My alma mater,<br>MSC, whose regular Freshman
English program I have prai=
sed highly, had<br>a secondary program in basic
writing skills for those=
who had failed the<br>English placement
exam. I had scored a 100 in=
the exam but my advisor had<br>accidentally put
my test in the "Dummy Eng=
lish" pile; therefore, I had to<br>take a
non-credit English class on the=
same semester as my first Freshman<br>English
class. My advisor apo=
logized to me later but I replied that I
had<br>learned more in Dummy Engl=
ish than in regular English because the class
size<br>was quite small--aro=
und ten students--and we wrote a theme each day
instead<br>of one a week.&=
nbsp; The professor in the Dummy Class was also an
excellent<br>teacher.<b=
r><br>Having taught across the academic
curriculum, I can aver that, in my=
<br>experience, class size is more important in
English composition than=
in any<br>other academic class, including
mathematics and foreign languag=
es.<br><br>N. Scott Catledge,
PhD/STD<br>Professor Emeritus<br><br>*******=
********************************************************************<br><b=
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--Apple-Mail-6--731617033--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:55:23 -0400
From: Brett Reynolds
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
--Apple-Mail-7--730648239
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Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=US-ASCII;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
On 1-Jun-09, at 9:39 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar
wrote:
>
> I tell my students that they shouldn't use them
... when writing to
> an audience that thinks they shouldn't be used.
This seems like sound advice for any language issue.
Perhaps it
should be followed with the proviso, "unless you
wish to provoke your
audience." The problem then becomes imagining
what might invoke the
rage of your reader.
Best,
Brett
-----------------------
Brett Reynolds
English Language Centre
Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced
Learning
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--Apple-Mail-7--730648239
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<br><div><div>On 1-Jun-09, at 9:39
AM, Assembly for the Teaching of =
English Grammar wrote:</div><blockquote
type=3D"cite"><div align=3D"left" =
style=3D"text-align: auto;"><font
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
color=3D"#000000"><br></font></div><div
align=3D"left" =
style=3D"text-align:left;"><font
face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"+0" =
color=3D"#000000"
style=3D"font-family:Times New =
Roman;font-size:12pt;color:#000000;">I tell my
students that they =
shouldn't use them ... when writing to an audience
that thinks they =
shouldn't be
used.</font></div></blockquote><br></div><div>This
seems =
like sound advice for any language issue.=A0Perhaps it
should be =
followed with the proviso, "unless you wish to
provoke your =
audience."=A0The problem then becomes imagining
what might invoke the =
rage of your
reader.=A0</div><div><br></div><div> <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span"
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px;
font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align:
auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none;
-webkit-text-size-adjust: =
auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0; "><span
class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate;
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; color:
rgb(0, 0, 0); =
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 14px; font-style:
normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; =
line-height: normal;
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; =
text-indent: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto;
text-transform: none; =
orphans: 2; white-space: normal; widows: 2;
word-spacing: 0px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse:
separate; =
-webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-border-vertical-spacing: =
0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 14px; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
-webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent:
0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none;
orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px;
"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Best,</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; =
">Brett</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><br
=
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; =
">-----------------------</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">Brett =
Reynolds</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">English Language =
Centre</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Humber
College Institute of =
Technology and Advanced Learning</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div><br
class=3D"khtml-block-placeholder"></div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"></span></span></span><br
=
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
</div><br></body></html>=
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--Apple-Mail-7--730648239--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:01:03 -0500
From: DD Farms <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
At 08:39 a.m. 1/06/2009, Peter Adams wrote:
>I've never understood some teachers' constraints
on first person, so
>I look forward to reading the replies to Paul's
post.
DD: Very formal, legal talk. "The party of the
first part." "The
party of the second part." Is that what you mean?
(Except in quoting
verbatim transcriptions of testimony.) I have seen
the move to
plural first person as in the Royal We and the POTUS
We. Seems a bit
arrogant to me, unless you are royalty.
>I also wonder about contractions. I tell my
students that they
>shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when
writing to an
>audience that thinks they shouldn't be used.
DD: Write to your reader. Want to offend them, then
use forms you think will.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:33:53 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Herb, Peter, et al.:
I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and
whole-heartedly agree
with Herb's points about the value of this thread) --
(1) I think Peter's point about training wheels being
useful only
insofar as the students *know* they're there and they
will come off
eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used in
textbooks should
always be accompanied by some comment, however brief,
that the actual
situation is more complex, and that discussion of that
will occur at
some later point. From what I've seen of K-12
textbooks, this kind of
comment is almost never added, and I have gotten the
impression at times
that the publishers of the texts didn't actually know
that the material
*was* a simplification (like an inset box in one text
I've examined that
made the point that (a) dialects are very different
and quaint kinds of
speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b) dialects
are dying out; it
was accompanied by a picture of a child in a kilt,
playing bagpipes).
Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that
there's more
complexity to a subject than they are being asked to
deal with right
now. They *are* annoyed when they've been presented
with something as an
absolute fact about English and then hear someone tell
them it's wrong.=20
(2) I always want to add a third domain to the two
Peter mentioned.
Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or biology,
focuses on the
architecture of part of our experienced reality.
Grammar-for-composition
focuses on expression; interpretation is automatically
included the
minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but it's
not the primary
focus. As future citizens, and consumers, students
also benefit from
examining how language is *on* them. It's possible to
study traditional
formal grammar and have a large amount of practice
with composition
without ever really noticing how "virtually"
is used as a weasel word,
or how a politician is using a passive construction in
a way that
happens to omit the agent when referring to a major
problem. A
consciousness of grammar during "reception"
is vital, even if it's
unconnected to a current writing task.=20
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
Dept. of English
Central Michigan University
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
Subject: Re: training wheels
Peter,
You've put your finger on precisely the reason why the
discussions of
how much grammar students need to know tend break
down. You write of
Goal Two:
This is the goal that asserts that we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology,
why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect
of our
humanity: our language?
But this rationale falls into the domain of linguists,
not writing and
language arts teachers. How much students should know
about language is
directly analogous to how much students should know
about biology, US
history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the
question of how much
students should know about grammar does fall much more
directly into the
domain of the writing teacher and the language arts
teacher.
Unfortunately, most of these people are the
beneficiaries of a half
century of bad teaching of and about grammar, but,
that problem aside,
linguists and grammarians need the guidance of writing
and language arts
teachers, and vice versa, to understand the questions
of scope and
sequence that K12 teachers know about that linguists
tend not to.
I must add that this thread, training wheels and its
predecessor, is one
of the most thoughtful and informative I've read on
this list in quite a
while. My thanks to all who have contributed of their
knowledge,
experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense of
awe I have long
felt towards good K12 teachers.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: training wheels
Craig,
I think you've put your finger on an important issue,
one I have not
resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the question is
how much grammar
should students know.
It seems to me the questions derives from two
different goals for
grammar instruction:
Goal 1: To give students the capability to produce
writing that
conforms reasonably to the constraints of Standard
Written English.
Goal 2: To provide students with some level of
understanding of how
language works. (This is the goal that asserts that
we require
students to know something about chemistry or biology,
why shouldn't
they know something about that most fundamental aspect
of our
humanity: our language?)
Because these are two disparate goals, the answer to
the simple
question of how much grammar should students know is
difficult to
agree on. In addition, for those who espouse either
of these goals,
it is still difficult to reach agreement on how much
grammar it takes
to reach that goal.
And then there is a third goal for grammar instruction
that
complicates the argument even further: students need
to know grammar
so that they have more options for how to express
their ideas.
I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward an
answer to the
question I called "simple," but perhaps I
have clarified what the
questions are.
Peter Adams
On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
> I think this has the potential to be a very
rich and interesting
> thread, especially if we can keep it as a
discussion and agree to
> disagree in patient ways. I can think of about
ten points to add, so
> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
> 1) Part of the problem is created by progressive
views toward grammar
> that emphasize "in context" instruction
with "minimal terminology."
> Advocates say the students don't need a wide
understanding of
> grammar in
> order to use it, and this pressures what I would
call "soft
> understandings" that are never meant as
scaffolds to a deeper
> understanding. Some of these get communicated as
"rules" and are
> difficult
> to displace.
> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean by
"rule." As we observe
> language, we inevitably discover patterns (rules)
that the languge
> itself
> follows: for example, that given tends to come
first and new tends
> to come
> last in the information structure of a clause.
This is an observation
> about patterned behavior in language, not a
constraint on how to use
> it.
> Another example might be that "because"
subordinates the clause that
> follows it. These are not rules we can choose to
break any more than
> we
> can choose to break the law of gravity. (Though
they are more
> dynamic than
> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of an
individual.) We can
> simply try to work in harmony with these
patterns, to use them
> purposefully.
> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a desirable
level of
> understanding
> that we are working toward, but we don't have any
kind of consensus
> about
> what that understanding might entail OR even that--for
a typical
> educated
> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable end.
For the great bulk
> of the
> population, grammar is still about how we behave,
not what we know,
> and it
> is primarily understood as a loose collection of
constraints.
> 4) This does not have to be an either/or choice,
since a deeper
> understanding of language allows someone to make
reasoned judgements
> about
> other people's rules or advice. As it stands, the
typical student is
> in
> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about
grammar to write either
> effectively or "correctly". >
>
> Craig
>
> Susan,
>>
>> I'm surprised that you thought I was
"railing" and had "strict
>> anger." I
>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm
dubious about what I called
>> "made-up rules"--and at times I
even venture to be critical of
>> them--but I
>> do not hate them with the undying wrath that
you seem to think you're
>> picking up from me.
>>
>> We do seem to agree that something that is
sometimes called "training
>> wheels" can be useful--but I think we
define that "something"
>> differently,
>> and we may have different perspectives on the
amount of damage that
>> has
>> been caused by misapplication of training
wheels. I think that
>> training
>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding (modelling
and guided practice of
>> skills
>> just at the edge of students' reach) can be
grat, while training
>> wheels
>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more
precise, unwarranted) rules
>> can do
>> more harm than good. (I would not, however,
agree with you that
>> teachers
>> who misuse training wheels are
"stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>> OK, but
>> "stupid" seems over the top, don't
you think?)
>>
>> I didn't say that you personally teach
students not to begin
>> sentences
>> with "because." My point was that,
whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>> some
>> students seem to believe in it for a long
time without learning
>> what it
>> was presumably intended to teach (writing in
complete sentences).
>> These
>> students get an unintended drawback of the
training wheels without
>> getting
>> much of the intended benefit--so this is one
instance of training
>> wheels
>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point that
professional writers use
>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But I
hope we can agree that
>> "avoid
>> sentence fragments," or "write in
complete sentences," is not a
>> made-up
>> rule in quite the same way that something
like "never start a
>> sentence
>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule. The
former is a norm of effective
>> writing, though it can be strategically and
effectively deviated
>> from; the
>> latter is not even a norm.
>>
>> Also, I wasn't "changing your
argument"; I wasn't even
>> characterizing your
>> argument. (Actually, I avoided characterizing
it, because it hasn't
>> always
>> been been completely clear to me; at one
point, if I remember
>> right, you
>> quoted a handout that said that experienced
writers vary their
>> sentence
>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you
were encouraging students
>> to try
>> to match that hallmark; but lately your more
moderate position has
>> become
>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that
*you* "tell students that
>> using a
>> large amount of sentence starter variation is
a hallmark of good
>> writers";
>> I said that *I* would not want to tell
students that. My point was
>> that I
>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence
structures often" a rule,
>> which would
>> be one kind of "training wheels,"
because I don't think such a rule
>> is
>> borne out by the practices of strong writers.
But I wouldn't mind
>> modelling the effective use of sentence
straters and having students
>> practice it, which is another kind of
"training wheels," or
>> scaffolding.
>> What I'm describing may not really be very
different from what you
>> practice; I'll leave that for you to judge.
>>
>> I think this conversation started, just
about, when Craig said that
>> he
>> considered "vary sentence starters"
an example of bad advice. As I
>> now
>> understand your argument, you might actually
agree with Craig's
>> statement,
>> IF "very sentence structures" is
interpreted as an absolute or
>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't think
the different sides of
>> this
>> conversation are as far apart as they may
sometimes have seemed to
>> be.
>> They're just different enough to make things
interesting.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan,
Brian P wrote:
>>
>> I don't think that everything that gets
called "training wheels" in
>> education is bad. On the contrary,
"training wheels" are often used
>> as an
>> example of the important educational
techniques called
>> "scaffolding." In
>> scaffolding, an instructor offers modeling,
guided practice and
>> finally
>> independent practice to help a student master
tasks
>>
>>
>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me.
Training wheels are helpful.
>> They are a good thing if they are needed.
They are a bad thing if a
>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see
that her student is
>> trying to
>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules. The
teacher who presents
>> any
>> "rule" as rigid and true is what
you are railing against. However,
>> under
>> your strict anger against all
"made-up" rules, a teacher who asks his
>> students to write complete sentences is
risking that his students
>> will
>> "internalize certain made-up rules
without actually having
>> internalized
>> the underlying skills." Professional
writers use fragments, after
>> all.
>>
>>
>> But if a college student avoids starting
sentences with because
>> but still
>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I have
known such students--
>> then I'm
>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels did
more harm than good.
>>
>>
>> This is a strawman. I teach my students to
write sentences
>> beginning with
>> "because" AND I teach them to try
different sentence starts. If
>> you have
>> a student who writes unsuccessful fragments,
you can't really blame
>> training wheels because the biggest
"training wheel" of them all is
>> don't
>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this student
is falling off the
>> bike with
>> the training wheels still attached. You take
those training wheels
>> off
>> and you will get more fragments--not fewer.
That student needs to
>> understand rules before she goes
free-wheeling down a hill.
>>
>>
>> I wouldn't want to tell students that using
a large amount of
>> sentence
>> starter variation is a hallmark of good
writers.
>>
>>
>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have just
changed my argument.
>> Don't
>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's gettin'
boring. I have never
>> advocated
>> "a large amount" of different
starts. What I have said is (barring
>> those
>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students who
start five sentences in
>> a row
>> with the same start need to change up one or
more more of them.
>> If there
>> is no rhetorical purpose to five sentences
that start with "he" or
>> "there
>> is," then it's a good training wheel to
ask students to reconsider
>> what
>> they wrote. If they can come up with a
purpose, fine. The rule
>> allows
>> for that. But if they can't, then the rule
has worked.
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: training wheels
>>
>> So weak writers suffer from training wheels?
>>
>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to
which I subscribe.
>> So...let'e
>> be clear, what are all the training wheels
you abhor? Sentence
>> starts
>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix
metaphors and open up the
>> spigots.
>> What else? What other tactics that are
commonly found in writing
>> texts
>> do you find harmful?
>>
>> Have at it.
>>
>> But you do know what the biggest
"training wheel" is, don't you?
>>
>> I'll give you a hint it has been condemned
since the late 70's. Our
>> district curriculum director won't allow us
to purchase books with
>> its
>> name in the title. And (the dead give away)
it's in the name of this
>> listserv.
>>
>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>
>> Hurts, donut?
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig Hancock
wrote:
>>
>>
>> Brian,
>> I just wanted to say that I find your
contributions very
>> thoughtful and
>> helpful. I especially like the way you bring
this back to the opening
>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed
'training wheels". I would
>> echo what I see as the core of your position:
they do more harm than
>> good.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more
clear, too--I didn't mean
>> that
>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I
meant that some solutions
>> to
>> the problem of boring essays are short term
(or superficial)
>> solutions.
>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of boring
essays by college
>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer, even
as a percentage of my
>> total
>> haul of papers, than high school teachers
read--just because my
>> students'
>> high school teachers have done a good job
with them). I could come up
>> with silly solutions to this problem--use a
world from a funny
>> vocabulary
>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming
couplets--which might
>> amuse me
>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would
probably not make for more
>> effective writing.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't
silly--after all, good
>> writers do
>> include some variant sentence starts, even if
it's only 25% of the
>> time,
>> and it's not outlandish to teach students how
good writers go about
>> doing
>> this. I actually do not think that sentence
starts and coherence
>> are an
>> either/or--you've made it clear that you
teach coherence, and I
>> don't see
>> how that could be totally negated by the
little time you spend
>> teaching
>> sentence start variation. At the same time, i
would not in any way
>> put
>> coherence and sentence start variation on the
same level. Coherence
>> is ,
>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental
aspect of a reader's
>> experience
>> of a text. Sentence start variation is...not.
Most of the time, if a
>> revision with more varied sentence starts is
better than the draft,
>> that
>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of
some more significant
>> change--like improved coordination or
subordination, or improved
>> topic
>> focus in general. If a student thinks that
her revision
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> is better is simply because she started her
sentences in more
>> various
>> ways, she may understand what really made the
revision better, and
>> thus
>> she may be less likely to transfer her
learning to the next context
>> and
>> do even better in the future. And she may not
be helped on the path
>> to
>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater
syntactical maturity (as you
>> put
>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and
control (as I put it).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one of
our goals) is for our
>> students
>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading--eventually. But not
necessarily while they're
>> in a
>> particular class that we happen to be
teaching. Sometimes, as a
>> student
>> experiments with more complex thoughts and
expressions, that
>> student's
>> writing may have to get more convoluted
before it gets clearer and
>> more
>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the
student advice that would
>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product today
over a more
>> deliberate and
>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I guess my question for your student would
be whether, and why, he
>> or she
>> really wanted to switch the focus of the
second sentence of the
>> revision
>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's
condition. Was there a
>> rhetorical
>> purpose, other than simply variation, for
switching from "he" to
>> "she" as
>> a subject, only to then switch back again? If
so--and there could
>> be such
>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this revision
is one instance where
>> sentence start variation and coherence really
did conflict, and I
>> would
>> have favored coherence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Still, your student is revising and
experimenting and certainly not
>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule, like
"every sentence must
>> have a
>> different subject." I don't think the
different sides in this
>> Great War
>> of Sentence Starters are really all that far
apart.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van
>> Druten
>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I
need to be more clear
>> about
>> how much (how little) I ask students to vary
their sentence starts.
>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the
room as they are writing.
>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots of
similar sentence starts
>> (which are not interesting parallel
structure). I'll mention it to
>> them and they'll read it it back and notice
how it sounds to them.
>> They don't want to sound "head-thumpingly
boring to read." So they
>> get it, and they change it on their own, or
they'll ask for advice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays
are short-term problems?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Bad writing is a long-term problem, period.
Bad essays are problems
>> for a high school teacher who has to read
150. They are problems
>> for
>> a college instructor who doesn't have to
read 150. The amount one
>> must read is irrelevant. There should be no
difference of opinion
>> between high school or college instructor:
if an essay is boring to
>> a high school teacher, it should be boring
to a college instructor.
>> The boring might come from uninspired
sentence starts or from
>> chaotic
>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter what
the problem is. We can
>> all spot the problem and help our students
with whatever is
>> causing it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> This argument has now shifted to a
fallacious either-or. It is
>> simply
>> not true that we must pit sentence start
variation against
>> coherence. Both are important.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to
more writing does not make
>> one unable to distinguish easier reading
from head-thumping reading.
>> The goal is that our students produce easy
to read and pleasurable,
>> informative reading.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian asks about my student's revision,
"I'm curious; how might
>> the passage's author respond to this kind of
advice [show me how
>> each sentence connects]?"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian, that is good advice which often
includes considering varying
>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer of
sorts. It's
>> inconclusive
>> (it is very hard to get students to
revise). But here is her
>> revision:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
falling. She has
>> become
>> so sick that she has lost a lot of weight,
and he has really started
>> to notice it. He had to support her as they
stood there because she
>> could barely hold herself up. He is not
only realizing just her
>> change in weight, but it really hits him at
this point how much her
>> leukemia has taken over her whole body and
in such a short period of
>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have
that much longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have better writers than this. But it's
all about taking a writer
>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas
that her writing shows she
>> has not been considering.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan,
Brian P wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems like one of the differences of
opinion here is what a
>> teacher should do with students who "do
not have a mature style,"
>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them
"training wheels" (aka,
>> "triage" them, give them
"bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>> more presentable in the short term, or
should we try to set them on
>> a path towards developing a more mature
style in the long run?
>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict,
but do they "sometimes*
>> conflict? And when do they do conflict,
which should take priority?
>> I say that they do sometimes conflict, and
that when they do, long-
>> term improvement should take priority.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I believe Susan when she says that her young
and struggling writers
>> hand in more readable prose when they follow
her advice to "change
>> up your sentence starters." But I also
agree with Craig that having
>> been trained this way may make it hard for
college writers to think
>> in terms of coherence and see the value of
repetition. If, as I
>> think, both Susan and Craig are right, then
the student's short
>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high
school teachers found a
>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring to
read) may not have been
>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater
difficulty in ultimately
>> attaining a mature style).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher, I
have smaller class
>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and, by
and large, I probably
>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly boring
papers. (Was that "good"
>> repetition or "bad," by the
way?)But college teachers, too, face
>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement of a
paper and long-term
>> improvement of a writer. For example, I've
had plenty of students--
>> often but not always English Language
Learners--who can write
>> simple sentence clearly but get very tangled
up when they start
>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us would
encourage students
>> like that to only write in simple sentences.
We put up with reading
>> convoluted sentences so that students can
practice, and eventually
>> improve at, coordination and subordination.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "Vary sentences starters," I rush
to admit, is not nearly such bad
>> advice as "only use simple
sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice
acts as a scaffold to help
>> eventually students reach "mature"
levels of rhetorical awareness
>> and control.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and John
to agree; they're
>> probably both thinking that I'm being too
abstract and talking
>> about what should be, not what is! So I'll
say how I might respond
>> to the student who wrote the "Landon
says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel
like each thought is separate
>> from the next, and there's nothing to show
me how they connect,
>> which is more important than the other,
which depends on which. One
>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of
problem for their readers
>> is by combining sentences. Before next
class, can you try a few
>> different ways of combining those seven
sentences into three to
>> five sentences, and tell me which way you
like best and why? If you
>> take another look at that "sentence
combining" chapter we read,
>> that will make this easier."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The results would be less predictible then
if I just told the
>> student to very sentence starters, but at
least I'd be asking the
>> student to realize that he or she has
stylistic choices to make and
>> to think about the effects of those choices
on readers. And
>> consistently asking students to do that can
make a difference over
>> the long one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on
pre-college writers, and
>> I'm curious; how might the passage's author
respond to this kind of
>> advice?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>> Assistant Professor of English
>> Director of the Writing Center
>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>> Montgomery Hall 50
>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>> 20686
>> 240-895-4242
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar on behalf of
>> Susan van Druten
>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> You say you would "work with this
writer to subordinate,
>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize
clauses and perhaps to
>> consider more carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging
>> of verb choice."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If I said what you just said to my students,
they would look at me
>> like I was trying to be condescending. So,
of course, I don't say
>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and
ask them to change up
>> their sentence starts.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Is the student "likely [to] produce
confusing sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a
belief that that is
>> what teachers want"? No. I am there
in the high school
>> classroom. They do not create twisted
syntax. Instead they fix
>> the core problem.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have expertise in this area. I have
adjusted my lofty ideas to
>> reflect what works with my struggling
student writers. You can
>> keep trying to justify what you think should
work, but it conflicts
>> with what I have experienced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John
Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would not encourage this student to vary
sentence openers as
>> there is no problem with the sentence
openers. The writer clearly
>> has a focused topic in mind that will carry
forward as given
>> information throughout the paragraph (if
that is not an appropriate
>> topic for that length of time, then that is
the problem, not the
>> structure).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I would work with this writer to
subordinate, coordinate, and
>> complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps
to consider more
>> carefully the semantic weight/information
packaging of verb choice.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Focusing on sentence opener variation here
would seem (to me)
>> quite a distraction from the real problems
that indicate the
>> maturity of the writing. The writer would
not improve the core
>> problems and would likely produce confusing
sentences
>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of a
belief that that is
>> what teachers want.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Alexander
>> Austin, Texas
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan van
Druten
>> <[log in to unmask]>
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when you
continue to bring up
>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that
purposeful repetition is
>> the mark of a mature style. You should now
drop that out of your
>> argument. In fact you should have dropped
that on after May 18th
>> when I acknowledged and refuted your point.
I said, "When I cover
>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes,
we talk about the
>> difference between purposeful repetition
(emphasis, humor, known-
>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by
uninspired, lazy writing."
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I am teaching students who do not have a
mature style. I went to
>> school today to find you an example. Do you
or do you not agree
>> that the writer below could use some advice
on changing up her
>> sentence starts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than the
leaves of a tree that had
>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing
Jamie's weight to leaves
>> falling. He has really started to notice it
that she has become so
>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight. He
had to support her
>> because she could barely hold herself up.
He is not only realizing
>> just her change in weight. He sees how much
her leukemia has taken
>> over her whole body and in such a short
period of time. He
>> realizes that she doesn't have that much
longer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig Hancock
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe our teaching practices should be
based on a solid
>> understanding of how language works. If we
tell students that
>> varying
>> sentence openings (using something other
than the subject as
>> opening)is
>> a goal of good writing, then we should find
a high number of those
>> variations in excellent writing. The truth
is that we don't.
>> As an explanation for your motivation,
you mentioned that
>> students
>> sometimes keep the same subject for as much
as five sentences in a
>> row. Again, I tried to point out that good
writers do this quite
>> often. I mentioned Frost's "Acquainted
with the Night", which
>> starts
>> every sentence with "I have",
copied in the opening to Leslie
>> Silko's
>> much anthologized "Yellow Woman"
to show that the great majority of
>> the sentences started with "I",
many of them consecutively, and
>> copied
>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on
race to show how he
>> effectively repeats the same subject or same
subject opening for
>> long
>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply
that you are dealing with
>> mature writers, but starting sentences with
the subject and
>> repeating
>> sentence openers can be thought of as the
mark of a mature style.
>> There are good reasons for this. If you
look at information
>> flow in a
>> text (given/new), given is almost always
first and new is almost
>> always
>> last. The most important function of a
sentence opener (usually the
>> subject for good writers) is not variation,
but continuity. The
>> opening
>> establishes connection with what went
before. One obvious way to
>> accomplish that is to repeat openings. Good
writers exploit
>> repetition
>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers
tend to move on much too
>> quickly.
>> The one place we agree, I think, is that a
number of different
>> structures can act as the subject of a
sentence and students should
>> have those available as resources. I believe
they should be used
>> for
>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>> I think we have gotten confused from time
to time about what
>> kind of
>> variation we are talking about. A variation
of subject is one. A
>> variation of the kinds of structures that
can act as subject is
>> another. A variation of the kinds of
structures that open
>> sentences is
>> another.
>> Christensen's essay seems to me good
argument for expecting
>> that most
>> sentences will start with the subject and
that when we have
>> variation
>> form that (about 25% of the time), those
will usually be simple
>> adverbials.
>> As a more direct answer to your question, I
believe it is
>> harmful to
>> imply to students that good writers try to
vary their sentence
>> openings. I spend more time with my students
trying to get them
>> to see
>> how good writers use repetition, including a
repetition of
>> subjects, to
>> build coherence into texts.
>> I'm glad you can understand this as a
discussion about good
>> teaching
>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you
stand. Do you still
>> believe
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show
students various ways to
>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have them
try changing up
>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know how
you got the idea
>> that I
>> was requiring them to vary every start in
their own essays.)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation.
Just because I thought
>> you
>> were dismissing my argument and called you
on it doesn't mean I am
>> not enjoying myself.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig Hancock
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> I believe that mentoring young people on
their path toward
>> a mature
>> literacy is a very difficult process. As
teachers, we should
>> all be
>> constantly examining and refining our
practices. We are far,
>> far from
>> perfect in what we do. That is at least
equally true of our
>> profession
>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves, over
and over again, if
>> what we
>> are doing is best for the students we are
serving. Once you
>> posted to
>> the list that you ask students to vary their
sentence openings
>> to keep
>> from being boring, that advice became subject
to the kind of
>> conversation we do routinely on this list.
It has nothing at
>> all to do
>> with whether any of us believe you are a
nazi or a bad
>> teacher. We
>> simply need to be able to consider these
approaches with an
>> open mind.
>> I hope you can understand that the spirit of
conversation was
>> never
>> intended to be personal.
>> That being said, I would ask you to
question seriously
>> whether the
>> "style guide" you are using is at
all thoughtful or accurate.
>> It says,
>> first of all, that students use non-subject
openers about 50%
>> of the
>> time. I wonder if that is based on any kind
of scholarly
>> study. The
>> studies refered to on list recently seem to
show that a
>> professional
>> writer opens with the subject much MORE than
that, at an
>> average of
>> about 75%. The lowest total in Christensen's
study was 60%, the
>> highest
>> about 90% for acclaimed professional
writers. If that is the
>> case,
>> then
>> students already vary sentence openings more
than mature
>> writers. I
>> would add that the writers in the study were
successful, not
>> boring.
>> I would recommend a book like Martha
Kolln's "Rhetorical
>> Grammar" as a
>> more linguistically sound source of advice.
>> But above all, don't be shy about joining
our talk. I
>> apologize if
>> anything I said made you feel as if you were
under attack as a
>> teacher.
>> As a profession, we are still a long way
from having fully
>> grounded,
>> effective, widely accepted practices. We
need to be respectful
>> of each
>> other as we work that out, and I apologize
again for any failures
>> on my
>> part to do that.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be
found in many style
>> guides.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you
thought I was a writing
>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare
repeat the same
>> starting word
>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have
experienced lots more
>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sentence Beginnings
>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Most writers begin about half their
sentences with the subject-
>> far
>> more than the number of sentences begun in
any other way. But
>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings
results in monotonous
>> writing. Below are several ways to vary the
beginnings of your
>> sentences.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> WORDS
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Two adjectives: Angry and
proud, Alice resolved to
>> fight back.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverb: Suddenly a
hissing and
>> clattering came
>> from the heights around us.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting word: For students who
have just
>> survived the
>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this
competitive atmosphere
>> is all
>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to
being stars in high
>> school,
>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd of
overachievers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy body,
however, is just as
>> important as a healthy mind.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A series of words: Light, water,
temperature,
>> minerals-
>> these affect the health of plants.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> PHRASES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet
care and feeding of
>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is far
from perfect. For
>> one
>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A prepositional phrase: Out of necessity
they stitched all of
>> their secret fears and lingering childhood
nightmares into this
>> existence.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An infinitive: To be really
successful, you will
>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English,
Spanish, and computer.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A gerund: Maintaining
a daily exercise
>> program
>> is essential.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A participle: Looking out
of the window high
>> over
>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of a
single farmhouse
>> surrounded by fields, followed by another
single homestead
>> surrounded
>> by fields.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An appositive: A place of
refuge, the Mission
>> provides
>> food and shelter for Springfield's homeless.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An absolute: His fur
bristling, the cat went
>> on the
>> attack.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> CLAUSES
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adverbial clause: When you first
start writing-and
>> I think
>> it's true for a lot of beginning
writers-you're scared to
>> death that
>> if you don't get that sentence right that
minute it's never
>> going to
>> show up again.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> An adjective clause: The freshman,
who was not a
>> joiner of
>> organizations, found herself unanimously
elected president of
>> a group
>> of animal lovers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> A noun clause: Why
earthquakes occur is a
>> questions to
>> ask a geologist.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean Waldman
wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan,
>> This is the first time you mentioned that
you teach the students
>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under
the impression that you
>> just demand that they do it and grade them
on whether they do it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> What method do you use to teach the
different possible
>> variations?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jean Waldman
>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Susan van Druten"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:50:56 -0400
From: Edgar Schuster <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
I have the same concern about the training wheels
never coming off. I
will never forget suggesting to the senior high school
teachers in one
of the best public schools in the state of New Jersey
that it was OK
to start a sentence with "and" or
"but," only to discover that the
department chair had just sent out a memo urging every
English teacher
to be on guard against this sinful practice and join
him in wiping it
off the face of the Earth. If college English
teachers frequently
find their students believing such things as never use
the passive,
never begin sentences with "there," never
use "I" in formal writing,
and such, it would seem the training has lasted for 12
years.
As for "formal" writing, what is it? and
where is it published? And
what chance is there that more than (fill in the number)
percent of
our students are ever going to have to write it?
Ed
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C wrote:
> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>
> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points (and
whole-heartedly agree
> with Herb's points about the value of this
thread) --
>
> (1) I think Peter's point about training wheels
being useful only
> insofar as the students *know* they're there and
they will come off
> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications used
in textbooks should
> always be accompanied by some comment, however
brief, that the actual
> situation is more complex, and that discussion of
that will occur at
> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12
textbooks, this kind of
> comment is almost never added, and I have gotten
the impression at
> times
> that the publishers of the texts didn't actually
know that the
> material
> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in one
text I've examined
> that
> made the point that (a) dialects are very
different and quaint kinds
> of
> speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b)
dialects are dying out; it
> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a
kilt, playing bagpipes).
> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover that
there's more
> complexity to a subject than they are being asked
to deal with right
> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been
presented with something
> as an
> absolute fact about English and then hear someone
tell them it's
> wrong.
>
>
> (2) I always want to add a third domain to the
two Peter mentioned.
> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or
biology, focuses on the
> architecture of part of our experienced reality.
Grammar-for-
> composition
> focuses on expression; interpretation is
automatically included the
> minute audience awareness becomes a topic, but
it's not the primary
> focus. As future citizens, and consumers,
students also benefit from
> examining how language is *on* them. It's
possible to study
> traditional
> formal grammar and have a large amount of
practice with composition
> without ever really noticing how
"virtually" is used as a weasel word,
> or how a politician is using a passive
construction in a way that
> happens to omit the agent when referring to a
major problem. A
> consciousness of grammar during
"reception" is vital, even if it's
> unconnected to a current writing task.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
> Dept. of English
> Central Michigan University
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
STAHLKE, HERBERT F
> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: training wheels
>
> Peter,
>
> You've put your finger on precisely the reason
why the discussions of
> how much grammar students need to know tend break
down. You write of
> Goal Two:
>
> This is the goal that asserts that we require
> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
> they know something about that most fundamental
aspect of our
> humanity: our language?
>
> But this rationale falls into the domain of
linguists, not writing and
> language arts teachers. How much students should
know about
> language is
> directly analogous to how much students should
know about biology, US
> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast, the
question of how much
> students should know about grammar does fall much
more directly into
> the
> domain of the writing teacher and the language
arts teacher.
> Unfortunately, most of these people are the
beneficiaries of a half
> century of bad teaching of and about grammar,
but, that problem aside,
> linguists and grammarians need the guidance of
writing and language
> arts
> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the
questions of scope and
> sequence that K12 teachers know about that
linguists tend not to.
>
> I must add that this thread, training wheels and
its predecessor, is
> one
> of the most thoughtful and informative I've read
on this list in
> quite a
> while. My thanks to all who have contributed of
their knowledge,
> experience, and expertise. It confirms the sense
of awe I have long
> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>
> Herb
>
> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
> Emeritus Professor of English
> Ball State University
> Muncie, IN 47306
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter
Adams [[log in to unmask]
> ]
> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: training wheels
>
> Craig,
>
> I think you've put your finger on an important
issue, one I have not
> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the
question is how much grammar
> should students know.
>
> It seems to me the questions derives from two
different goals for
> grammar instruction:
>
> Goal 1: To give students the capability to
produce writing that
> conforms reasonably to the constraints of
Standard Written English.
>
> Goal 2: To provide students with some level of
understanding of how
> language works. (This is the goal that asserts
that we require
> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
> they know something about that most fundamental
aspect of our
> humanity: our language?)
>
> Because these are two disparate goals, the answer
to the simple
> question of how much grammar should students know
is difficult to
> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse
either of these goals,
> it is still difficult to reach agreement on how
much grammar it takes
> to reach that goal.
>
> And then there is a third goal for grammar
instruction that
> complicates the argument even further: students
need to know grammar
> so that they have more options for how to express
their ideas.
>
> I fear I have made absolutely no progress toward
an answer to the
> question I called "simple," but perhaps
I have clarified what the
> questions are.
>
> Peter Adams
>
>
> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock wrote:
>
>> I think this has the potential to be a very
rich and interesting
>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a
discussion and agree to
>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of
about ten points to add, so
>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a few.
>> 1) Part of the problem is created by
progressive views toward
>> grammar
>> that emphasize "in context"
instruction with "minimal terminology."
>> Advocates say the students don't need a wide
understanding of
>> grammar in
>> order to use it, and this pressures what I
would call "soft
>> understandings" that are never meant as
scaffolds to a deeper
>> understanding. Some of these get communicated
as "rules" and are
>> difficult
>> to displace.
>> 2) We have to be careful about what we mean
by "rule." As we observe
>> language, we inevitably discover patterns
(rules) that the languge
>> itself
>> follows: for example, that given tends to
come first and new tends
>> to come
>> last in the information structure of a
clause. This is an observation
>> about patterned behavior in language, not a
constraint on how to use
>> it.
>> Another example might be that
"because" subordinates the clause that
>> follows it. These are not rules we can choose
to break any more than
>> we
>> can choose to break the law of gravity.
(Though they are more
>> dynamic than
>> gravity, they can't be altered at the whim of
an individual.) We can
>> simply try to work in harmony with these
patterns, to use them
>> purposefully.
>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a
desirable level of
>> understanding
>> that we are working toward, but we don't have
any kind of consensus
>> about
>> what that understanding might entail OR even
that--for a typical
>> educated
>> adult--knowing about grammar is a desirable
end. For the great bulk
>> of the
>> population, grammar is still about how we
behave, not what we know,
>> and it
>> is primarily understood as a loose collection
of constraints.
>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or
choice, since a deeper
>> understanding of language allows someone to
make reasoned judgements
>> about
>> other people's rules or advice. As it stands,
the typical student is
>> in
>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough about
grammar to write either
>> effectively or "correctly". >
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Susan,
>>>
>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was
"railing" and had "strict
>>> anger." I
>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually. I'm
dubious about what I called
>>> "made-up rules"--and at times I
even venture to be critical of
>>> them--but I
>>> do not hate them with the undying wrath
that you seem to think
>>> you're
>>> picking up from me.
>>>
>>> We do seem to agree that something that
is sometimes called
>>> "training
>>> wheels" can be useful--but I think
we define that "something"
>>> differently,
>>> and we may have different perspectives on
the amount of damage that
>>> has
>>> been caused by misapplication of training
wheels. I think that
>>> training
>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding
(modelling and guided practice of
>>> skills
>>> just at the edge of students' reach) can
be grat, while training
>>> wheels
>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be more
precise, unwarranted) rules
>>> can do
>>> more harm than good. (I would not,
however, agree with you that
>>> teachers
>>> who misuse training wheels are
"stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>> OK, but
>>> "stupid" seems over the top,
don't you think?)
>>>
>>> I didn't say that you personally teach
students not to begin
>>> sentences
>>> with "because." My point was
that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>> some
>>> students seem to believe in it for a long
time without learning
>>> what it
>>> was presumably intended to teach (writing
in complete sentences).
>>> These
>>> students get an unintended drawback of
the training wheels without
>>> getting
>>> much of the intended benefit--so this is
one instance of training
>>> wheels
>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your point
that professional writers use
>>> sentence fragment is true, of course. But
I hope we can agree that
>>> "avoid
>>> sentence fragments," or "write
in complete sentences," is not a
>>> made-up
>>> rule in quite the same way that something
like "never start a
>>> sentence
>>> with 'because'" is a made-up rule.
The former is a norm of effective
>>> writing, though it can be strategically
and effectively deviated
>>> from; the
>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>
>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your
argument"; I wasn't even
>>> characterizing your
>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided
characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>> always
>>> been been completely clear to me; at one
point, if I remember
>>> right, you
>>> quoted a handout that said that
experienced writers vary their
>>> sentence
>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought you
were encouraging students
>>> to try
>>> to match that hallmark; but lately your
more moderate position has
>>> become
>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say that
*you* "tell students that
>>> using a
>>> large amount of sentence starter
variation is a hallmark of good
>>> writers";
>>> I said that *I* would not want to tell
students that. My point was
>>> that I
>>> wouldn't want to make "vary sentence
structures often" a rule,
>>> which would
>>> be one kind of "training
wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>> is
>>> borne out by the practices of strong
writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>> modelling the effective use of sentence
straters and having students
>>> practice it, which is another kind of
"training wheels," or
>>> scaffolding.
>>> What I'm describing may not really be
very different from what you
>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to
judge.
>>>
>>> I think this conversation started, just
about, when Craig said that
>>> he
>>> considered "vary sentence
starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>> now
>>> understand your argument, you might
actually agree with Craig's
>>> statement,
>>> IF "very sentence structures"
is interpreted as an absolute or
>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't
think the different sides of
>>> this
>>> conversation are as far apart as they may
sometimes have seemed to
>>> be.
>>> They're just different enough to make
things interesting.
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>> 20686
>>> 240-895-4242
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>
>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM, O'Sullivan,
Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't think that everything that gets
called "training wheels" in
>>> education is bad. On the contrary,
"training wheels" are often used
>>> as an
>>> example of the important educational
techniques called
>>> "scaffolding." In
>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers
modeling, guided practice and
>>> finally
>>> independent practice to help a student
master tasks
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with me.
Training wheels are
>>> helpful.
>>> They are a good thing if they are
needed. They are a bad thing if a
>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too see
that her student is
>>> trying to
>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up rules.
The teacher who presents
>>> any
>>> "rule" as rigid and true is
what you are railing against. However,
>>> under
>>> your strict anger against all
"made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>> his
>>> students to write complete sentences is
risking that his students
>>> will
>>> "internalize certain made-up rules
without actually having
>>> internalized
>>> the underlying skills."
Professional writers use fragments, after
>>> all.
>>>
>>>
>>> But if a college student avoids starting
sentences with because
>>> but still
>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I
have known such students--
>>> then I'm
>>> thinking that, yes, those training wheels
did more harm than good.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is a strawman. I teach my students
to write sentences
>>> beginning with
>>> "because" AND I teach them to
try different sentence starts. If
>>> you have
>>> a student who writes unsuccessful
fragments, you can't really blame
>>> training wheels because the biggest
"training wheel" of them all is
>>> don't
>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this
student is falling off the
>>> bike with
>>> the training wheels still attached. You
take those training wheels
>>> off
>>> and you will get more fragments--not
fewer. That student needs to
>>> understand rules before she goes
free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>
>>>
>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that
using a large amount of
>>> sentence
>>> starter variation is a hallmark of good
writers.
>>>
>>>
>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You have
just changed my argument.
>>> Don't
>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's
gettin' boring. I have never
>>> advocated
>>> "a large amount" of different
starts. What I have said is (barring
>>> those
>>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students
who start five sentences in
>>> a row
>>> with the same start need to change up one
or more more of them.
>>> If there
>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five
sentences that start with "he" or
>>> "there
>>> is," then it's a good training wheel
to ask students to reconsider
>>> what
>>> they wrote. If they can come up with a
purpose, fine. The rule
>>> allows
>>> for that. But if they can't, then the
rule has worked.
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>
>>> So weak writers suffer from training
wheels?
>>>
>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and to
which I subscribe.
>>> So...let'e
>>> be clear, what are all the training
wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>> starts
>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix
metaphors and open up the
>>> spigots.
>>> What else? What other tactics that are
commonly found in writing
>>> texts
>>> do you find harmful?
>>>
>>> Have at it.
>>>
>>> But you do know what the biggest
"training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>
>>> I'll give you a hint it has been
condemned since the late 70's. Our
>>> district curriculum director won't allow
us to purchase books with
>>> its
>>> name in the title. And (the dead give
away) it's in the name of
>>> this
>>> listserv.
>>>
>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>
>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian,
>>> I just wanted to say that I find your
contributions very
>>> thoughtful and
>>> helpful. I especially like the way you
bring this back to the
>>> opening
>>> discussion, whether weaker writers needed
'training wheels". I would
>>> echo what I see as the core of your
position: they do more harm than
>>> good.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be more
clear, too--I didn't mean
>>> that
>>> boring essays are a short-term problem; I
meant that some solutions
>>> to
>>> the problem of boring essays are short
term (or superficial)
>>> solutions.
>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty of
boring essays by college
>>> students(though I'm sure I read fewer,
even as a percentage of my
>>> total
>>> haul of papers, than high school teachers
read--just because my
>>> students'
>>> high school teachers have done a good job
with them). I could come
>>> up
>>> with silly solutions to this problem--use
a world from a funny
>>> vocabulary
>>> list every few lines, or write in rhyming
couplets--which might
>>> amuse me
>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but would
probably not make for more
>>> effective writing.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Your solution, on the other hand, isn't
silly--after all, good
>>> writers do
>>> include some variant sentence starts,
even if it's only 25% of the
>>> time,
>>> and it's not outlandish to teach students
how good writers go about
>>> doing
>>> this. I actually do not think that
sentence starts and coherence
>>> are an
>>> either/or--you've made it clear that you
teach coherence, and I
>>> don't see
>>> how that could be totally negated by the
little time you spend
>>> teaching
>>> sentence start variation. At the same
time, i would not in any way
>>> put
>>> coherence and sentence start variation on
the same level. Coherence
>>> is ,
>>> pretty much by definition, a fundamental
aspect of a reader's
>>> experience
>>> of a text. Sentence start variation
is...not. Most of the time, if a
>>> revision with more varied sentence starts
is better than the draft,
>>> that
>>> variation is probably an epiphenomenon of
some more significant
>>> change--like improved coordination or
subordination, or improved
>>> topic
>>> focus in general. If a student thinks
that her revision
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> is better is simply because she started
her sentences in more
>>> various
>>> ways, she may understand what really made
the revision better, and
>>> thus
>>> she may be less likely to transfer her
learning to the next context
>>> and
>>> do even better in the future. And she may
not be helped on the path
>>> to
>>> the (even) longer-term goal of greater
syntactical maturity (as you
>>> put
>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness and
control (as I put it).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with you that our goal (or, one
of our goals) is for our
>>> students
>>> to produce easy to read and pleasurable,
>>> informative reading--eventually. But not
necessarily while they're
>>> in a
>>> particular class that we happen to be
teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>> student
>>> experiments with more complex thoughts
and expressions, that
>>> student's
>>> writing may have to get more convoluted
before it gets clearer and
>>> more
>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give the
student advice that would
>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable product
today over a more
>>> deliberate and
>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess my question for your student
would be whether, and why, he
>>> or she
>>> really wanted to switch the focus of the
second sentence of the
>>> revision
>>> from the Landon's perception to Jamie's
condition. Was there a
>>> rhetorical
>>> purpose, other than simply variation, for
switching from "he" to
>>> "she" as
>>> a subject, only to then switch back
again? If so--and there could
>>> be such
>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this
revision is one instance where
>>> sentence start variation and coherence
really did conflict, and I
>>> would
>>> have favored coherence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Still, your student is revising and
experimenting and certainly not
>>> learning a pointless, inflexible rule,
like "every sentence must
>>> have a
>>> different subject." I don't think
the different sides in this
>>> Great War
>>> of Sentence Starters are really all that
far apart.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van
>>> Druten
>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight. Maybe I
need to be more clear
>>> about
>>> how much (how little) I ask students to
vary their sentence starts.
>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around the
room as they are writing.
>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice lots
of similar sentence starts
>>> (which are not interesting parallel
structure). I'll mention it to
>>> them and they'll read it it back and
notice how it sounds to them.
>>> They don't want to sound
"head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>> get it, and they change it on their own,
or they'll ask for advice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Head-thumpingly boring" essays
are short-term problems?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem,
period. Bad essays are problems
>>> for a high school teacher who has to read
150. They are problems
>>> for
>>> a college instructor who doesn't have to
read 150. The amount one
>>> must read is irrelevant. There should be
no difference of opinion
>>> between high school or college
instructor: if an essay is boring to
>>> a high school teacher, it should be
boring to a college instructor.
>>> The boring might come from uninspired
sentence starts or from
>>> chaotic
>>> coherence problems. It doesn't matter
what the problem is. We can
>>> all spot the problem and help our
students with whatever is
>>> causing it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This argument has now shifted to a
fallacious either-or. It is
>>> simply
>>> not true that we must pit sentence start
variation against
>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Class size is irrelevant. An exposure to
more writing does not make
>>> one unable to distinguish easier reading
from head-thumping reading.
>>> The goal is that our students produce
easy to read and pleasurable,
>>> informative reading.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian asks about my student's revision,
"I'm curious; how might
>>> the passage's author respond to this kind
of advice [show me how
>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian, that is good advice which often
includes considering varying
>>> sentence starts. So I do have an answer
of sorts. It's
>>> inconclusive
>>> (it is very hard to get students to
revise). But here is her
>>> revision:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to
leaves falling. She has
>>> become
>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of
weight, and he has really started
>>> to notice it. He had to support her as
they stood there because she
>>> could barely hold herself up. He is not
only realizing just her
>>> change in weight, but it really hits him
at this point how much her
>>> leukemia has taken over her whole body
and in such a short period of
>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't have
that much longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have better writers than this. But
it's all about taking a writer
>>> from where she is at and suggesting ideas
that her writing shows she
>>> has not been considering.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM, O'Sullivan,
Brian P wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems like one of the differences of
opinion here is what a
>>> teacher should do with students who
"do not have a mature style,"
>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them
"training wheels" (aka,
>>> "triage" them, give them
"bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>> more presentable in the short term, or
should we try to set them on
>>> a path towards developing a more mature
style in the long run?
>>> These goals don't *necessarily* conflict,
but do they "sometimes*
>>> conflict? And when do they do conflict,
which should take priority?
>>> I say that they do sometimes conflict,
and that when they do, long-
>>> term improvement should take priority.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I believe Susan when she says that her
young and struggling writers
>>> hand in more readable prose when they
follow her advice to "change
>>> up your sentence starters." But I
also agree with Craig that having
>>> been trained this way may make it hard
for college writers to think
>>> in terms of coherence and see the value
of repetition. If, as I
>>> think, both Susan and Craig are right,
then the student's short
>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their high
school teachers found a
>>> little easier and head-thumpingly boring
to read) may not have been
>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e, greater
difficulty in ultimately
>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Easy for me to say. As a college teacher,
I have smaller class
>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan, and,
by and large, I probably
>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly
boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>> repetition or "bad," by the
way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>> tradeoffs between immediate improvement
of a paper and long-term
>>> improvement of a writer. For example,
I've had plenty of students--
>>> often but not always English Language
Learners--who can write
>>> simple sentence clearly but get very
tangled up when they start
>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of us
would encourage students
>>> like that to only write in simple
sentences. We put up with reading
>>> convoluted sentences so that students can
practice, and eventually
>>> improve at, coordination and
subordination.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Vary sentences starters," I
rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>> advice as "only use simple
sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>> my mind, is that neither piece of advice
acts as a scaffold to help
>>> eventually students reach
"mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>> and control.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan and
John to agree; they're
>>> probably both thinking that I'm being too
abstract and talking
>>> about what should be, not what is! So
I'll say how I might respond
>>> to the student who wrote the "Landon
says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "[Student], when I read this, I feel
like each thought is separate
>>> from the next, and there's nothing to
show me how they connect,
>>> which is more important than the other,
which depends on which. One
>>> of the ways that writers fix that kind of
problem for their readers
>>> is by combining sentences. Before next
class, can you try a few
>>> different ways of combining those seven
sentences into three to
>>> five sentences, and tell me which way you
like best and why? If you
>>> take another look at that "sentence
combining" chapter we read,
>>> that will make this easier."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The results would be less predictible
then if I just told the
>>> student to very sentence starters, but at
least I'd be asking the
>>> student to realize that he or she has
stylistic choices to make and
>>> to think about the effects of those
choices on readers. And
>>> consistently asking students to do that
can make a difference over
>>> the long one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an expert on
pre-college writers, and
>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's
author respond to this kind of
>>> advice?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>> 20686
>>> 240-895-4242
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Susan van Druten
>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John, you have actually made my point.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You say you would "work with this
writer to subordinate,
>>> coordinate, and complementize/relativize
clauses and perhaps to
>>> consider more carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging
>>> of verb choice."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If I said what you just said to my
students, they would look at me
>>> like I was trying to be condescending.
So, of course, I don't say
>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak and
ask them to change up
>>> their sentence starts.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Is the student "likely [to] produce
confusing sentences
>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of
a belief that that is
>>> what teachers want"? No. I am
there in the high school
>>> classroom. They do not create twisted
syntax. Instead they fix
>>> the core problem.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have expertise in this area. I have
adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>> reflect what works with my struggling
student writers. You can
>>> keep trying to justify what you think
should work, but it conflicts
>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John
Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would not encourage this student to
vary sentence openers as
>>> there is no problem with the sentence
openers. The writer clearly
>>> has a focused topic in mind that will
carry forward as given
>>> information throughout the paragraph (if
that is not an appropriate
>>> topic for that length of time, then that
is the problem, not the
>>> structure).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would work with this writer to
subordinate, coordinate, and
>>> complementize/relativize clauses and
perhaps to consider more
>>> carefully the semantic weight/information
packaging of verb choice.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation
here would seem (to me)
>>> quite a distraction from the real
problems that indicate the
>>> maturity of the writing. The writer would
not improve the core
>>> problems and would likely produce
confusing sentences
>>> (unnecessarily complex structures) out of
a belief that that is
>>> what teachers want.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Alexander
>>> Austin, Texas
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM, Susan
van Druten
>>> <[log in to unmask]>
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern when
you continue to bring up
>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree that
purposeful repetition is
>>> the mark of a mature style. You should
now drop that out of your
>>> argument. In fact you should have
dropped that on after May 18th
>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your
point. I said, "When I cover
>>> parallel structure in AP and honors
classes, we talk about the
>>> difference between purposeful repetition
(emphasis, humor, known-
>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born by
uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am teaching students who do not have a
mature style. I went to
>>> school today to find you an example. Do
you or do you not agree
>>> that the writer below could use some
advice on changing up her
>>> sentence starts?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter than
the leaves of a tree that had
>>> fallen in autumn." He is comparing
Jamie's weight to leaves
>>> falling. He has really started to notice
it that she has become so
>>> sick that she has lost a lot of weight.
He had to support her
>>> because she could barely hold herself
up. He is not only realizing
>>> just her change in weight. He sees how
much her leukemia has taken
>>> over her whole body and in such a short period
of time. He
>>> realizes that she doesn't have that much
longer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> I believe our teaching practices should
be based on a solid
>>> understanding of how language works. If
we tell students that
>>> varying
>>> sentence openings (using something other
than the subject as
>>> opening)is
>>> a goal of good writing, then we should
find a high number of those
>>> variations in excellent writing. The
truth is that we don't.
>>> As an explanation for your
motivation, you mentioned that
>>> students
>>> sometimes keep the same subject for as
much as five sentences in a
>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that
good writers do this quite
>>> often. I mentioned Frost's
"Acquainted with the Night", which
>>> starts
>>> every sentence with "I have",
copied in the opening to Leslie
>>> Silko's
>>> much anthologized "Yellow
Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>> the sentences started with "I",
many of them consecutively, and
>>> copied
>>> a passage from Obama's heralded speech on
race to show how he
>>> effectively repeats the same subject or
same subject opening for
>>> long
>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply
that you are dealing with
>>> mature writers, but starting sentences
with the subject and
>>> repeating
>>> sentence openers can be thought of as the
mark of a mature style.
>>> There are good reasons for this. If you
look at information
>>> flow in a
>>> text (given/new), given is almost always
first and new is almost
>>> always
>>> last. The most important function of a
sentence opener (usually the
>>> subject for good writers) is not
variation, but continuity. The
>>> opening
>>> establishes connection with what went
before. One obvious way to
>>> accomplish that is to repeat openings.
Good writers exploit
>>> repetition
>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced writers
tend to move on much too
>>> quickly.
>>> The one place we agree, I think, is
that a number of different
>>> structures can act as the subject of a
sentence and students should
>>> have those available as resources. I
believe they should be used
>>> for
>>> continuity, though, not for variation.
>>> I think we have gotten confused from
time to time about what
>>> kind of
>>> variation we are talking about. A
variation of subject is one. A
>>> variation of the kinds of structures that
can act as subject is
>>> another. A variation of the kinds of
structures that open
>>> sentences is
>>> another.
>>> Christensen's essay seems to me good
argument for expecting
>>> that most
>>> sentences will start with the subject and
that when we have
>>> variation
>>> form that (about 25% of the time), those
will usually be simple
>>> adverbials.
>>> As a more direct answer to your
question, I believe it is
>>> harmful to
>>> imply to students that good writers try
to vary their sentence
>>> openings. I spend more time with my
students trying to get them
>>> to see
>>> how good writers use repetition,
including a repetition of
>>> subjects, to
>>> build coherence into texts.
>>> I'm glad you can understand this as a
discussion about good
>>> teaching
>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where you
stand. Do you still
>>> believe
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to show
students various ways to
>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have
them try changing up
>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't know
how you got the idea
>>> that I
>>> was requiring them to vary every start in
their own essays.)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I enjoy the spirit of the conversation.
Just because I thought
>>> you
>>> were dismissing my argument and called
you on it doesn't mean I am
>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> I believe that mentoring young people
on their path toward
>>> a mature
>>> literacy is a very difficult process. As
teachers, we should
>>> all be
>>> constantly examining and refining our
practices. We are far,
>>> far from
>>> perfect in what we do. That is at least
equally true of our
>>> profession
>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves,
over and over again, if
>>> what we
>>> are doing is best for the students we are
serving. Once you
>>> posted to
>>> the list that you ask students to vary their
sentence openings
>>> to keep
>>> from being boring, that advice became
subject to the kind of
>>> conversation we do routinely on this
list. It has nothing at
>>> all to do
>>> with whether any of us believe you are a
nazi or a bad
>>> teacher. We
>>> simply need to be able to consider these
approaches with an
>>> open mind.
>>> I hope you can understand that the spirit
of conversation was
>>> never
>>> intended to be personal.
>>> That being said, I would ask you to
question seriously
>>> whether the
>>> "style guide" you are using is
at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>> It says,
>>> first of all, that students use
non-subject openers about 50%
>>> of the
>>> time. I wonder if that is based on any
kind of scholarly
>>> study. The
>>> studies refered to on list recently seem
to show that a
>>> professional
>>> writer opens with the subject much MORE
than that, at an
>>> average of
>>> about 75%. The lowest total in
Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>> highest
>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional writers.
If that is the
>>> case,
>>> then
>>> students already vary sentence openings
more than mature
>>> writers. I
>>> would add that the writers in the study
were successful, not
>>> boring.
>>> I would recommend a book like Martha
Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>> Grammar" as a
>>> more linguistically sound source of
advice.
>>> But above all, don't be shy about
joining our talk. I
>>> apologize if
>>> anything I said made you feel as if you
were under attack as a
>>> teacher.
>>> As a profession, we are still a long way
from having fully
>>> grounded,
>>> effective, widely accepted practices. We
need to be respectful
>>> of each
>>> other as we work that out, and I
apologize again for any failures
>>> on my
>>> part to do that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can be
found in many style
>>> guides.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of you
thought I was a writing
>>> Nazi, who demanded students never dare
repeat the same
>>> starting word
>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should have
experienced lots more
>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>> Vary the beginnings of your sentences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Most writers begin about half their
sentences with the subject-
>>> far
>>> more than the number of sentences begun
in any other way. But
>>> overuse of the subject-first beginnings
results in monotonous
>>> writing. Below are several ways to vary
the beginnings of your
>>> sentences.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> WORDS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Two adjectives: Angry and
proud, Alice resolved to
>>> fight back.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adverb: Suddenly a
hissing and
>>> clattering came
>>> from the heights around us.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A connecting word: For students
who have just
>>> survived the
>>> brutal college-entrance marathon, this
competitive atmosphere
>>> is all
>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed to
being stars in high
>>> school,
>>> find themselves feeling lost in a crowd
of overachievers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy
body, however, is just as
>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A series of words: Light,
water, temperature,
>>> minerals-
>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> PHRASES
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A connecting phrase: If the Soviet
care and feeding of
>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it is
far from perfect. For
>>> one
>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of
necessity they stitched all of
>>> their secret fears and lingering
childhood nightmares into this
>>> existence.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An infinitive: To be
really successful, you will
>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in English,
Spanish, and computer.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A gerund:
Maintaining a daily exercise
>>> program
>>> is essential.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A participle: Looking
out of the window high
>>> over
>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern of
a single farmhouse
>>> surrounded by fields, followed by another
single homestead
>>> surrounded
>>> by fields.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An appositive: A place of
refuge, the Mission
>>> provides
>>> food and shelter for Springfield's
homeless.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An absolute: His fur
bristling, the cat went
>>> on the
>>> attack.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> CLAUSES
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adverbial clause: When you
first start writing-and
>>> I think
>>> it's true for a lot of beginning
writers-you're scared to
>>> death that
>>> if you don't get that sentence right that
minute it's never
>>> going to
>>> show up again.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> An adjective clause: The
freshman, who was not a
>>> joiner of
>>> organizations, found herself unanimously
elected president of
>>> a group
>>> of animal lovers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> A noun clause: Why
earthquakes occur is a
>>> questions to
>>> ask a geologist.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean
Waldman wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>> This is the first time you mentioned that
you teach the students
>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was under
the impression that you
>>> just demand that they do it and grade
them on whether they do it.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What method do you use to teach the
different possible
>>> variations?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jean Waldman
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Susan van Druten"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>>
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list"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
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>>
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>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:52:49 -0400
From: "Spruiell, William C"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: levels of formality
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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I wasn't allowed to use contractions in my
dissertation - but of course,
few of our students are writing dissertations, and if
they are, they
aren't doing it for our classes. One thing I've found
handy in my
grammar class, though, is to have students look at a
list of
contractions and try to decide which of them are less
formal than others
- "can't" is prohibited in only the most
achingly formal registers, but
"I'd" is another story (I also bring up the
difference between "cannot"
and "can not").=20
=20
On the first person pronoun issue, I think students
need to be able to
write without it, but shouldn't get the impression
that there's anything
inherently wrong with a first-person style in general.
The only real
problem with first-person-ing that I've run into in
college classes is
that students who are unused to writing arguments will
use first person
and present what would otherwise be an assertion of
fact as if it's an
opinion statement They're using constructions like
"I think" to hedge,
like I did in the first sentence of this paragraph;
science writing uses
tons of hedges, but they operate by shifting
probability ("potentially
indicates...") rather than tying things to
opinion. I'm still trying to
figure out how to politely negotiate the whole issue
of opinion and
science with composition students; "your opinions
really, honestly don't
matter much, but your arguments and their validity
do" seems a bit
abrupt. At the other end of the spectrum, I've had
students who so
strongly believed that first person was always bad
that they tried to
write personal reaction statements without ever using
"I" or "me." It's
possible to manage that, but no one will particularly
want to read the
result.
=20
Sincerely,
=20
Bill Spruiell
=20
=20
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter
Adams
Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: levels of formality
=20
I've never understood some teachers' constraints on
first person, so I
look forward to reading the replies to Paul's post.
=20
I also wonder about contractions. I tell my students
that they
shouldn't use them in very formal writing or when
writing to an audience
that thinks they shouldn't be used. I also tell them
I've never written
anything in my life that was so formal that I avoided
contractions.
Where do others stand on this?
=20
Peter Adams
=20
On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM, Paul E. Doniger wrote:
In requiring students to write some papers in
"formal English," I often
come across some gray areas. My tendancy is to be
somewhat conservative
about formal language. I wonder where others draw
lines regarding
levels of formality. For example, some of my students
use words that
seem too informal to me, like "morph" (verb
form). Also, I know we have
discussed the use of the first person before, but I
think it is
sometimes valuable to challenge students to write
persuasive pieces that
avoid using the first person altogether. Where do the
rest of you stand
on such issues?
=20
Thanks,
=20
Paul E. Doniger
=20
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could
condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).
=20
=20
________________________________
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 6:45:07 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to
29 May 2009 -
Special issue (#2009-127)
Herb,
=20
I wasn't clear. Currently, for seventh grade English,
I teach four
groups of students for a total of 112 students. I
meet with each group
five times each week. I think that I could get better
results by
meeting with all the groups together on some days and
with each group
separately on others. This would reduce total student
contact hours for
me, but not for them. With 28 total contact hours per
week next year (I
teach other classes as well), I would benefit from
reducing my contact
load and spending that time planning, developing
lessons, and responding
to writing.=20
=20
Scott
--- On Sun, 5/31/09, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=09
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May
2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21 PM
Scott,
=20
I'm not join this debate because I don't know
the research on
either side, but meeting one group of 112 students
twice a week rather
than four groups of 28 students twice a week for each
group strikes me
as simply a different way of handling the same
student-teacher ratio.
Meeting four groups of 112 students twice a week for
each group seems a
more apt contrast. Or you could lower that to four
groups of 42 or 56
students. The result would be much less writing and
much less response
to writing.
=20
Herb
=20
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott
Woods
Sent: 2009-05-31 11:11
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May
2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
=20
Paul,
=20
I would be interested in seeing research that shows a
strong link
between reducing class size and increasing
performance. The research I
have seen strongly suggests that the most important
factor in improving
student performance is changing what teachers do.
Reducing class size
can reduce the amount of disruption in a class, but
there is little
research base (that I have seen) to suggest that if we
reduced the size
of every class in the country to 15 students that much
would change in
what students know and can do.=20
=20
As an English teacher, I would prefer having fewer
total students, but I
could probably teach as well if, at least twice a
week, I had all 112 of
my students in a lecture hall together. That would
give me eight hours
of extra time to respond thoughtfully to their
writing.
=20
Scott Woods
BASIS Scottsdale
=20
--- On Fri, 5/29/09, Paul E. Doniger
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
=09
From: Paul E. Doniger [log in to unmask]
<http:[log in to unmask]>=20
Yes! And all research in education that I've
ever seen agrees
that class size is a vital component in successful
learning. This is
especially important to the writing classroom.
=20
Paul E. Doniger
=20
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I
could condemn it as an
improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).
=20
=20
=09
________________________________
From: Scott <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 8:30:56 PM
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May
2009 to 29 May 2009
- Special issue (#2009-127)
=09
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark
as stupid;
however,
the list member who indicated that class size
was irrelevant in
teaching
writing must have been brought up by a school
board member. My
alma mater,
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I
have praised
highly, had
a secondary program in basic writing skills for
those who had
failed the
English placement exam. I had scored a 100 in
the exam but my
advisor had
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy
English" pile; therefore,
I had to
take a non-credit English class on the same
semester as my first
Freshman
English class. My advisor apologized to me
later but I replied
that I had
learned more in Dummy English than in regular
English because
the class size
was quite small--around ten students--and we
wrote a theme each
day instead
of one a week. The professor in the Dummy Class
was also an
excellent
teacher.
=09
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I
can aver that,
in my
experience, class size is more important in
English composition
than in any
other academic class, including mathematics and
foreign
languages.
=09
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
Professor Emeritus
=09
=09
************************************************************************
***
=09
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=09
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=20
=3D To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
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<div class=3DSection1>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I wasn’t allowed to use
contractions in my =
dissertation –
but of course, few of our students are writing
dissertations, and if =
they are,
they aren’t doing it for our classes. One
thing I’ve found =
handy in
my grammar class, though, is to have students look at
a list of =
contractions
and try to decide which of them are less formal than
others – =
“can’t”
is prohibited in only the most achingly formal
registers, but =
“I’d”
is another story (I also bring up the difference
between =
“cannot”
and “can not”).
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>On the first person pronoun issue, I
think students need =
to be <i>able</i>
to write without it, but shouldn’t get the
impression that =
there’s
anything inherently wrong with a first-person style in
general. The only =
real problem
with first-person-ing that I’ve run into in
college classes is =
that
students who are unused to writing arguments will use
first person and =
present
what would otherwise be an assertion of fact as if
it’s an opinion
statement They’re using constructions like
“I think” =
to
hedge, like I did in the first sentence of this
paragraph; science =
writing uses
tons of hedges, but they operate by shifting
probability =
(“potentially
indicates…”) rather than tying
things to opinion. I’m =
still
trying to figure out how to politely negotiate the
whole issue of =
opinion and
science with composition students; “your
opinions really, honestly =
don’t
matter much, but your arguments and their validity
do” seems a bit
abrupt. At the other end of the spectrum,
I’ve had students who so
strongly believed that first person was always bad
that they tried to =
write personal
reaction statements without ever using
“I” or =
“me.” It’s
possible to manage that, but no one will particularly
want to read the =
result.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Sincerely,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill
Spruiell<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
Assembly =
for the
Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On =
Behalf Of </b>Peter
Adams<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, June 01, 2009 9:39
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: levels of
formality<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I've never understood some
teachers' constraints on =
first
person, so I look forward to reading the replies to
Paul's =
post.<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I also wonder about
contractions. I tell my =
students
that they shouldn't use them in very formal writing or
when writing to =
an
audience that thinks they shouldn't be used.
I also tell them I've =
never
written anything in my life that was so formal that I
avoided =
contractions.
Where do others stand on
this?<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Peter
Adams<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Jun 1, 2009, at 9:01 AM,
Paul E. Doniger =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>In requiring students to write some
papers in "formal
English," I often come across some gray
areas. My tendancy is =
to be
somewhat conservative about formal language.
I wonder where others =
draw
lines regarding levels of formality. For
example, some of my =
students use
words that seem too informal to me, like
"morph" (verb =
form).
Also, I know we have discussed the use of the first
person before, but I =
think
it is sometimes valuable to challenge students to
write persuasive =
pieces that
avoid using the first person altogether.
Where do the rest of you =
stand on
such
issues?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-family:"Bookman
Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'>Paul E. Doniger<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman
Old Style","serif";
color:black'>"If this were play'd upon a
stage now, I could condemn =
it as
an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif";
color:black'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter
style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%"
align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>From:</span></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";
color:black'> </span></span><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>Scott
Woods <<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
<b>To:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Sent:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Sunday, May =
31, 2009
6:45:07 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re: =
Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue =
(#2009-127)</span><span
style=3D'color:black'><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0
cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in
0in'>
<div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal>Herb,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p
class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>I wasn't clear.
Currently, for seventh =
grade
English, I teach four groups of students
for a total of 112
students. I meet with each group five
times each week. I =
think
that I could get better results by meeting with all
the groups =
together on
some days and with each group separately on others.
This would reduce =
total
student contact hours for me, but not for
them. With 28 total =
contact
hours per week next year (I teach other classes as
well), I would =
benefit
from reducing my contact load and spending that time
planning, =
developing
lessons, and responding to
writing. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Scott<br>
<br>
--- On<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>Sun, =
5/31/09,
STAHLKE, HERBERT F<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><i><<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 4.0pt;
margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F <<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
Subject: Re: Class size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to
29 May 2009 - =
Special
issue (#2009-127)<br>
To:<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
Date: Sunday, May 31, 2009, 1:21
PM<o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3Dyiv1500704068>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Scott,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>I’m
not join this debate because I don’t know
the research on either =
side,
but meeting one group of 112 students twice a week
rather than four =
groups of
28 students twice a week for each group strikes me
as simply a =
different way
of handling the same student-teacher
ratio. Meeting four groups =
of 112
students twice a week for each group seems a more
apt contrast. =
Or you
could lower that to four groups of 42 or 56
students. The result =
would
be much less writing and much less response to =
writing.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
=
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>Herb</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid
#B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in;
=
border-right-color:initial;border-left-color:initial;border-bottom-color:=
initial'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
=
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span=
></span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Assembly
=
for the
Teaching of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<=
/a>]<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf
Of<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span></b>Scott
Woods<br>
<b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>2009-05-31
11:11<br>
<b>To:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Subject:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re: =
Class size
ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 - Special
issue =
(#2009-127)</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p><=
/o:p></p>
<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0
cellspacing=3D0 =
cellpadding=3D0>
<tr>
<td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in
0in'>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>Paul,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>I would be interested in seeing research
that shows a strong =
link
between reducing class size and increasing
performance. The =
research I
have seen strongly suggests that the most
important factor in =
improving
student performance is changing what teachers
do. Reducing =
class size
can reduce the amount of disruption in a class,
but there is little
research base (that I have seen) to suggest that
if we reduced the =
size of
every class in the country to 15 students that
much would change in =
what
students know and can
do. <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>As an English teacher, I would prefer
having fewer total =
students,
but I could probably teach as well if, at least
twice a week, I had =
all 112
of my students in a lecture hall together.
That would give me =
eight
hours of extra time to respond thoughtfully to
their =
writing.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>Scott
Woods<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'>BASIS
Scottsdale<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><br>
--- On<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><b>Fri, =
5/29/09, Paul
E. Doniger<span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><i><<a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid #1010FF =
1.5pt;padding:
0in 0in 0in =
4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;
=
border-right-color:initial;border-top-color:initial;border-bottom-color:
initial'>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
From: Paul E. Doniger<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"http:[log in to unmask]"=
target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><o:p></o:p></p>
<div id=3Dyiv469038085>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Yes! =
And all
research in education that I've ever seen agrees
that class size is =
a vital
component in successful learning. This
is especially important =
to the
writing
classroom.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old Style","serif"'>Paul =
E. Doniger<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'>"If
this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn
it as an =
improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_
3.4.127-128).</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old =
Style","serif"'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter =
style=3D'text-align:center'><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
<hr size=3D1 width=3D"100%"
align=3Dcenter>
</span></div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span=
></span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Scott
=
<<a
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>
<b>To:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
=
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>=
<b>Sent:</b><span
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Friday, =
May 29,
2009 8:30:56 PM<br>
<b>Subject:</b><span class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>Re:
=
Class
size ATEG Digest - 28 May 2009 to 29 May 2009 -
Special issue =
(#2009-127)<br>
</span><span
style=3D'font-family:"Bookman Old
Style","serif"'><br>
I too am normally reluctant to classify a remark
as stupid; =
however,<br>
the list member who indicated that class size was
irrelevant in =
teaching<br>
writing must have been brought up by a school
board member. My =
alma
mater,<br>
MSC, whose regular Freshman English program I have
praised highly, =
had<br>
a secondary program in basic writing skills for
those who had failed =
the<br>
English placement exam. I had scored a
100 in the exam but my =
advisor
had<br>
accidentally put my test in the "Dummy
English" pile; =
therefore,
I had to<br>
take a non-credit English class on the same
semester as my first =
Freshman<br>
English class. My advisor apologized to
me later but I replied =
that I
had<br>
learned more in Dummy English than in regular
English because the =
class
size<br>
was quite small--around ten students--and we wrote
a theme each day =
instead<br>
of one a week. The professor in the
Dummy Class was also an =
excellent<br>
teacher.<br>
<br>
Having taught across the academic curriculum, I
can aver that, in =
my<br>
experience, class size is more important in
English composition than =
in any<br>
other academic class, including mathematics and
foreign =
languages.<br>
<br>
N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD<br>
Professor Emeritus<br>
<br>
=
*************************************************************************=
**<br>
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</div>
</blockquote>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
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class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span>and select
"Join or =
leave the
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<div>
<p class=3DMsoNormal>Visit ATEG's web site
at<span =
class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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</blockquote>
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</table>
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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=
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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class=3Dapple-converted-space> </span><a
href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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LISTSERV list, please =
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and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------_=_NextPart_001_01C9E2F2.8B2DDD79--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:53:39 -0500
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
--Apple-Mail-3--701952749
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Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were
centered around =20=
fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer to
create an error in =20=
parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with Joanne's
fear. I am not =20
sure why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any
professional =20
example of non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
This is an excellent test question. It becomes even
more obvious if =20
you eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her
sister Heather, =20
Joanne=92s fear kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures. The =20=
context is simply irrelevant.
On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
wrote:
> There are clearly errors which are appropriate to
this technique. =20
> All of this started because I objected to one
decontextualized =20
> sentence on an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on
this sentence, but =20=
> I maintain that if standardized test developers
are going to use =20
> this technique they should at least make sure
their test items are =20
> not context dependent as this one is. It was a
bad test item. The =20=
> technique itself can be useful, but the example
in question =20
> demonstrates the kind of problems that can
arise. There are whole =20
> classes of problem for which the technique works.
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar =20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Scott
> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework;
ATEG Digest - 29 May =20
> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>
> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I
have structured =20
> similar
> sentences for examinations.
>
> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I
remembered the name =20
> correctly),
> American High School English do not normally have
6-7 classes; =20
> however, the
> classes are larger: My first year of teaching, I
taught five =20
> different
> classes of 40 students each with homework
required in each subject =20
> five days
> a week (English, mathematics, General Science,
World Geography, =20
> Spanish. My
> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin II,
French I, French II, =20=
> and
> World History (the last was for Educable Mentally
Handicapped =20
> students). My
> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2
sections of English II, =20=
> Latin I,
> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I).
Classes only averaged 25
> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which I
had started); however,
> homework was only four nights a week. Several of
the Latin classes =20=
> had two
> levels in the same room.
>
>
> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
> Professor Emeritus
> history & languages
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
ATEG automatic =20
> digest system
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009
(#2009-129)
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar =20
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel
structure questions
>
> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask
questions based on =20
> obscure rules=3D
> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing
"Heather" to "Joanne's =20
> fear" ca=3D
> uses the reader one second of adjustment. Try
reading the sentence =20=
> without=3D
> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister
Heather, Joanne's fear =20=
> kept he=3D
> r from going anywhere near the creatures.
Parallel structures (such =20=
> as "unl=3D
> ike x") set up expectations in readers.
When the writer doesn't =20
> deliver, i=3D
> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who
withholds the final note.
>
>
***********************************************************
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web =20
> interface at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web =20
> interface at:
>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-3--701952749
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
<html><body style=3D"word-wrap:
break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph were
centered around =
fear, then it would be=A0appropriate=A0for a writer to
create an error =
in parallelism, i.e. to compare
<i>Heather</i> with <i>Joanne's =
fear</i>. =A0I am not sure why Herb things this.
=A0Does anyone know of =
any professional example of non-parallel items that is
not a mistake? =
=A0<div><br></div><div>This is
an excellent test question. =A0It becomes =
even more obvious if you eliminate
the=A0interrupting=A0clause. =A0<span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span"
style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 17px; =
font-style: italic; ">Unlike her sister
Heather,=A0Joanne=92s fear kept =
her from going anywhere near the creatures.
=A0</span><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span"
style=3D"font-family: Arial; font-size: 17px; =
">The context is simply =
irrelevant.</span></div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On
May =
31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote
type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">There are clearly errors
which are appropriate to =
this technique.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>All of =
this started because I objected to one
decontextualized sentence on an =
SAT.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>Susan and I do
not =
agree on this sentence, but I maintain that if
standardized test =
developers are going to use this technique they should
at least make =
sure their test items are not context dependent as
this one is.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>It was a bad test item.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>The technique itself can be =
useful, but the example in question demonstrates the
kind of problems =
that can arise.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>There =
are whole classes of problem for which the technique
works.</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; =
">Herb</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">-----Original =
Message-----</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:
Assembly for the Teaching =
of English Grammar [<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</=
a>] On Behalf Of Scott</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">Sent: 2009-05-31 =
23:21</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">To:
<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Parallel
structure and homework; ATEG =
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)</div><div
=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">I concur =
fully with Susan van Druten's comment: I have
structured =
similar</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">sentences for =
examinations.</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">In response to Edmund
Wright (I hope that I =
remembered the name correctly),</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">American High =
School English do not normally have 6-7 classes;
however, the</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">classes are larger:<span
=
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>My first year of teaching, I =
taught five different</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">classes of 40 students each =
with homework required in each subject five
days</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">a week (English,
mathematics, General Science, World =
Geography, Spanish.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>My</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">third
year, I ended up with =
Latin I, Latin II, French I, French II,
and</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">World =
History (the last was for Educable Mentally
Handicapped students).<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>My</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">fifteenth year, I did have
seven classes (2 sections =
of English II, Latin I,</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">Latin II, =
Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I).<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>Classes only averaged
25</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">students (150 =
in lieu of the 200, with which I had started);
however,</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">homework was only four
nights a week.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>Several of the Latin classes =
had two</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">levels
in the same =
room.</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">N. Scott =
Catledge, PhD/STD</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">Professor Emeritus</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">history &
languages</div><div style=3D"margin-top:=
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">-----Original =
Message-----</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">From:
Assembly for the Teaching =
of English Grammar</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
">[<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</=
a>] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest
system</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009
12:00 AM</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: ATEG Digest - 29
May 2009 to 30 May 2009 =
(#2009-129)</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]</a>=3D</div><div
=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of
Susan van Druten</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Sent: 2009-05-30
10:44</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">To: <a =
href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div=
><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Subject: Re: Class size
and SAT parallel structure =
questions</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height:
14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">I agree that some test
maker sometimes ask questions =
based on obscure rules=3D</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">, but this =
one seems fair to me.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 =
</span>Comparing "Heather" to
"Joanne's fear" ca=3D</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">uses the reader one second
of adjustment.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>Try reading the sentence =
without=3D</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0</span>the
interrupting clause.<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0
</span>Unlike her sister Heather, =
Joanne's fear kept he=3D</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">r from going =
anywhere near the creatures. Parallel structures (such
as =
"unl=3D</div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">ike
x") set up expectations in =
readers.<span
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0 </span>When the writer =
doesn't deliver, i=3D</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">t
is as unsatisfying as the =
musician who withholds the final
note.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; =
min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; =
">***********************************************************</div><div
=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">To join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface =
at:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0
=A0 </span><a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">and select =
"Join or leave the list"</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top:
0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit
ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div><div
=
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px;
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 0px; ">To join =
or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface =
at:</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px;
"><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">=A0=A0
=A0 </span><a =
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muo=
hio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; ">and select =
"Join or leave the list"</div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left:
0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div><div
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Visit
ATEG's web site at <a =
href=3D"http://ateg.org">http://ateg.org</a>/</div>
=
</blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
<p>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-3--701952749--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:38:22 -0700
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Although as a general principal I tend to accept
Herb's point that SAT wr=
iting
questions would be much improved if there were a
larger context in which =
to
judge putative errors, I agree with Susan that this
sentence needs revisi=
on
regardless of any larger context. I cannot see very
many, if any, profess=
ional
editors allowing a sentence like this to stand without
revision.
Also, I would submit that in terms of testing, there
is a substantive
difference between a question that merely asks
students if something is a=
n
error (the SAT also has this type of question) and
questions that ask whi=
ch is
the best among a set of alternative phrasings, as this
one does.
I'm willing to entertain the notion that the original
is arguably Standar=
d
English, at least in the descriptive sense that many
writers produce such
sentences and readers can cope with them well enough
to infer the intende=
d
meaning, the proposed correct answer is clearly
_better_ than the origina=
l, as
it directly expresses the patent sense of the sentence
without the silly
comparison of a person to a person's fear. And for
this question type,
students are being asked to pick the best version
among the alternatives.
That said, there are related constructions for which I
think Herb's point
might be argued more convincingly. In addition to
considering this proble=
m as
a parallelism violation, or as an illogical
comparison, we could also cal=
l it
a dangling modifier. And among dangling modifiers,
there is a gradient of
obviousness. Compare, for example,
(1) Looking fetching in a strapless black dress, Bob
escorted his date to=
the
prom.
(2) To increase beer sales, an innovative
"murketing" campaign was launch=
ed.
I would claim that examples like (1) are blatantly
obvious problems and t=
hose
like (2) go practically unnoticed unless you are
highly trained and readi=
ng in
a context, such as grading student papers or taking
the SAT, where you ar=
e
primed to look for errors. I also think that the
"Unlike..." example fall=
s
closer to (1) in terms of obviousness.
When judging "errors," I often think of
Joseph Williams' classic article =
"The
Phenomenology of Error", which bids us to think
about errors in terms of =
how
readers perceive them in authentic contexts.
In the schoolbook grammars, (1) and (2) are both
deprecated, but I'd subm=
it
that a student who writes sentences like (1) is going
to be perceived as =
far
less in control of his or her writing than one who
writes sentences like =
(2).
So to the extent that a standardized test asks questions
that presuppose
sentences like (2) are errors, I am strongly inclined
to support Herb. In
point of fact, though, I don't find that the SAT does
this very often on =
real
test questions (I've been studying them rather
intently for the last few
years), although some of the practice problems that
the College Board mak=
es
available do have such flaws. Even without conscious
thought on the part =
of
the test makers, there is at least some protection in
the statistical
screening that operational test problems must endure.
Problems, for examp=
le,
where better students are more likely to pick an
incorrect answer than lo=
wer
students tend not to make it past the pre-testing
phrase.
Karl
Susan van Druten wrote:
> Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph
were centered around
> fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer
to create an error in
> parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with
Joanne's fear. I am not sure
> why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any
professional example of
> non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
>=20
> This is an excellent test question. It becomes
even more obvious if yo=
u
> eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her
sister Heather, Joanne=92=
s
> fear kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures. The context is
> simply irrelevant.
>=20
>=20
> On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
wrote:
>=20
>> There are clearly errors which are
appropriate to this technique. All
>> of this started because I objected to one
decontextualized sentence on
>> an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this
sentence, but I maintain
>> that if standardized test developers are
going to use this technique
>> they should at least make sure their test
items are not context
>> dependent as this one is. It was a bad test
item. The technique
>> itself can be useful, but the example in
question demonstrates the
>> kind of problems that can arise. There are
whole classes of problem
>> for which the technique works.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Scott
>> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework;
ATEG Digest - 29 May
>> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's
comment: I have structured simi=
lar
>> sentences for examinations.
>>
>> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I
remembered the name
>> correctly),
>> American High School English do not normally
have 6-7 classes;
>> however, the
>> classes are larger: My first year of
teaching, I taught five differen=
t
>> classes of 40 students each with homework
required in each subject
>> five days
>> a week (English, mathematics, General
Science, World Geography,
>> Spanish. My
>> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin
II, French I, French II, an=
d
>> World History (the last was for Educable
Mentally Handicapped
>> students). My
>> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2
sections of English II,
>> Latin I,
>> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I).
Classes only averaged 25
>> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which
I had started); however,
>> homework was only four nights a week.
Several of the Latin classes
>> had two
>> levels in the same room.
>>
>>
>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>> Professor Emeritus
>> history & languages
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of ATEG automatic digest
>> system
>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May
2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
>> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel
structure questions
>>
>> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask
questions based on obscure
>> rules=3D
>> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing
"Heather" to "Joanne's
>> fear" ca=3D
>> uses the reader one second of adjustment.
Try reading the sentence
>> without=3D
>> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister
Heather, Joanne's fear
>> kept he=3D
>> r from going anywhere near the creatures.
Parallel structures (such as
>> "unl=3D
>> ike x") set up expectations in readers.
When the writer doesn't
>> deliver, i=3D
>> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who
withholds the final note.
>>
>>
***********************************************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:57:46 -0400
From: Peter Adams <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Here's a scary thought. If enough teachers have
taught these
"training wheel rules" to enough generations
of students, who are now
out there teaching them to others and editing books
and periodicals
and even the NY Times, so that most people in America
believe that
starting a sentence with "because" or
"there" or "and" is just plain
wrong, could what started as "training
wheels" actually become
descriptions of how the language is used? Despite
what a handful of
brilliant ATEG members think, can what started as
"training wheels"
actually become "the rules" if enough people
think they are the
rules? And then we ATEG-ers become the reactionaries
trying to resist
"change" in the language? Really scary.
[Note that, as if to prove
I'm not influenced by training wheels, I just started
a sentence with
"and."]
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
> I have the same concern about the training wheels
never coming off.
> I will never forget suggesting to the senior high
school teachers in
> one of the best public schools in the state of
New Jersey that it
> was OK to start a sentence with "and"
or "but," only to discover
> that the department chair had just sent out a
memo urging every
> English teacher to be on guard against this
sinful practice and join
> him in wiping it off the face of the Earth. If
college English
> teachers frequently find their students believing
such things as
> never use the passive, never begin sentences with
"there," never use
> "I" in formal writing, and such, it
would seem the training has
> lasted for 12 years.
> As for "formal" writing, what is it?
and where is it published? And
> what chance is there that more than (fill in the
number) percent of
> our students are ever going to have to write it?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C
wrote:
>
>> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>>
>> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points
(and whole-heartedly agree
>> with Herb's points about the value of this
thread) --
>>
>> (1) I think Peter's point about training
wheels being useful only
>> insofar as the students *know* they're there
and they will come off
>> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications
used in textbooks should
>> always be accompanied by some comment,
however brief, that the actual
>> situation is more complex, and that
discussion of that will occur at
>> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12
textbooks, this kind of
>> comment is almost never added, and I have
gotten the impression at
>> times
>> that the publishers of the texts didn't
actually know that the
>> material
>> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in
one text I've examined
>> that
>> made the point that (a) dialects are very
different and quaint
>> kinds of
>> speech, like one hears in Scotland, and (b)
dialects are dying out;
>> it
>> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a
kilt, playing bagpipes).
>> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover
that there's more
>> complexity to a subject than they are being
asked to deal with right
>> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been
presented with something
>> as an
>> absolute fact about English and then hear
someone tell them it's
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>> (2) I always want to add a third domain to
the two Peter mentioned.
>> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or
biology, focuses on the
>> architecture of part of our experienced
reality. Grammar-for-
>> composition
>> focuses on expression; interpretation is
automatically included the
>> minute audience awareness becomes a topic,
but it's not the primary
>> focus. As future citizens, and consumers,
students also benefit from
>> examining how language is *on* them. It's
possible to study
>> traditional
>> formal grammar and have a large amount of
practice with composition
>> without ever really noticing how
"virtually" is used as a weasel
>> word,
>> or how a politician is using a passive
construction in a way that
>> happens to omit the agent when referring to a
major problem. A
>> consciousness of grammar during
"reception" is vital, even if it's
>> unconnected to a current writing task.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>> Dept. of English
>> Central Michigan University
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> You've put your finger on precisely the
reason why the discussions of
>> how much grammar students need to know tend
break down. You write of
>> Goal Two:
>>
>> This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most
fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?
>>
>> But this rationale falls into the domain of
linguists, not writing
>> and
>> language arts teachers. How much students
should know about
>> language is
>> directly analogous to how much students
should know about biology, US
>> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast,
the question of how much
>> students should know about grammar does fall
much more directly
>> into the
>> domain of the writing teacher and the
language arts teacher.
>> Unfortunately, most of these people are the
beneficiaries of a half
>> century of bad teaching of and about grammar,
but, that problem
>> aside,
>> linguists and grammarians need the guidance
of writing and language
>> arts
>> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the
questions of scope and
>> sequence that K12 teachers know about that
linguists tend not to.
>>
>> I must add that this thread, training wheels
and its predecessor,
>> is one
>> of the most thoughtful and informative I've
read on this list in
>> quite a
>> while. My thanks to all who have contributed
of their knowledge,
>> experience, and expertise. It confirms the
sense of awe I have long
>> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>> Emeritus Professor of English
>> Ball State University
>> Muncie, IN 47306
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter
Adams [[log in to unmask]
>> ]
>> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I think you've put your finger on an
important issue, one I have not
>> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the
question is how much
>> grammar
>> should students know.
>>
>> It seems to me the questions derives from two
different goals for
>> grammar instruction:
>>
>> Goal 1: To give students the capability to
produce writing that
>> conforms reasonably to the constraints of
Standard Written English.
>>
>> Goal 2: To provide students with some level
of understanding of how
>> language works. (This is the goal that
asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most
fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?)
>>
>> Because these are two disparate goals, the
answer to the simple
>> question of how much grammar should students
know is difficult to
>> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse
either of these goals,
>> it is still difficult to reach agreement on
how much grammar it takes
>> to reach that goal.
>>
>> And then there is a third goal for grammar
instruction that
>> complicates the argument even further:
students need to know grammar
>> so that they have more options for how to
express their ideas.
>>
>> I fear I have made absolutely no progress
toward an answer to the
>> question I called "simple," but
perhaps I have clarified what the
>> questions are.
>>
>> Peter Adams
>>
>>
>> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock
wrote:
>>
>>> I think this has the potential to be a
very rich and interesting
>>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a
discussion and agree to
>>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of
about ten points to add, so
>>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a
few.
>>> 1) Part of the problem is created by
progressive views toward
>>> grammar
>>> that emphasize "in context"
instruction with "minimal terminology."
>>> Advocates say the students don't need a
wide understanding of
>>> grammar in
>>> order to use it, and this pressures what
I would call "soft
>>> understandings" that are never meant
as scaffolds to a deeper
>>> understanding. Some of these get
communicated as "rules" and are
>>> difficult
>>> to displace.
>>> 2) We have to be careful about what we
mean by "rule." As we
>>> observe
>>> language, we inevitably discover patterns
(rules) that the languge
>>> itself
>>> follows: for example, that given tends to
come first and new tends
>>> to come
>>> last in the information structure of a
clause. This is an
>>> observation
>>> about patterned behavior in language, not
a constraint on how to use
>>> it.
>>> Another example might be that
"because" subordinates the clause that
>>> follows it. These are not rules we can
choose to break any more than
>>> we
>>> can choose to break the law of gravity.
(Though they are more
>>> dynamic than
>>> gravity, they can't be altered at the
whim of an individual.) We can
>>> simply try to work in harmony with these
patterns, to use them
>>> purposefully.
>>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a
desirable level of
>>> understanding
>>> that we are working toward, but we don't
have any kind of consensus
>>> about
>>> what that understanding might entail OR
even that--for a typical
>>> educated
>>> adult--knowing about grammar is a
desirable end. For the great bulk
>>> of the
>>> population, grammar is still about how we
behave, not what we know,
>>> and it
>>> is primarily understood as a loose
collection of constraints.
>>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or
choice, since a deeper
>>> understanding of language allows someone
to make reasoned judgements
>>> about
>>> other people's rules or advice. As it
stands, the typical student is
>>> in
>>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough
about grammar to write either
>>> effectively or "correctly".
>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was
"railing" and had "strict
>>>> anger." I
>>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually.
I'm dubious about what I
>>>> called
>>>> "made-up rules"--and at
times I even venture to be critical of
>>>> them--but I
>>>> do not hate them with the undying
wrath that you seem to think
>>>> you're
>>>> picking up from me.
>>>>
>>>> We do seem to agree that something
that is sometimes called
>>>> "training
>>>> wheels" can be useful--but I
think we define that "something"
>>>> differently,
>>>> and we may have different
perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>>> has
>>>> been caused by misapplication of
training wheels. I think that
>>>> training
>>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding
(modelling and guided practice of
>>>> skills
>>>> just at the edge of students' reach)
can be grat, while training
>>>> wheels
>>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be
more precise, unwarranted) rules
>>>> can do
>>>> more harm than good. (I would not,
however, agree with you that
>>>> teachers
>>>> who misuse training wheels are
"stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>>> OK, but
>>>> "stupid" seems over the
top, don't you think?)
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say that you personally
teach students not to begin
>>>> sentences
>>>> with "because." My point
was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>>> some
>>>> students seem to believe in it for a
long time without learning
>>>> what it
>>>> was presumably intended to teach
(writing in complete sentences).
>>>> These
>>>> students get an unintended drawback
of the training wheels without
>>>> getting
>>>> much of the intended benefit--so this
is one instance of training
>>>> wheels
>>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your
point that professional writers
>>>> use
>>>> sentence fragment is true, of course.
But I hope we can agree that
>>>> "avoid
>>>> sentence fragments," or
"write in complete sentences," is not a
>>>> made-up
>>>> rule in quite the same way that
something like "never start a
>>>> sentence
>>>> with 'because'" is a made-up
rule. The former is a norm of
>>>> effective
>>>> writing, though it can be
strategically and effectively deviated
>>>> from; the
>>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your
argument"; I wasn't even
>>>> characterizing your
>>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided
characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>>> always
>>>> been been completely clear to me; at
one point, if I remember
>>>> right, you
>>>> quoted a handout that said that
experienced writers vary their
>>>> sentence
>>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought
you were encouraging students
>>>> to try
>>>> to match that hallmark; but lately
your more moderate position has
>>>> become
>>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say
that *you* "tell students that
>>>> using a
>>>> large amount of sentence starter
variation is a hallmark of good
>>>> writers";
>>>> I said that *I* would not want to
tell students that. My point was
>>>> that I
>>>> wouldn't want to make "vary
sentence structures often" a rule,
>>>> which would
>>>> be one kind of "training
wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>>> is
>>>> borne out by the practices of strong
writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>>> modelling the effective use of
sentence straters and having
>>>> students
>>>> practice it, which is another kind of
"training wheels," or
>>>> scaffolding.
>>>> What I'm describing may not really be
very different from what you
>>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to
judge.
>>>>
>>>> I think this conversation started,
just about, when Craig said that
>>>> he
>>>> considered "vary sentence
starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>>> now
>>>> understand your argument, you might
actually agree with Craig's
>>>> statement,
>>>> IF "very sentence
structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't
think the different sides of
>>>> this
>>>> conversation are as far apart as they
may sometimes have seemed to
>>>> be.
>>>> They're just different enough to make
things interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM,
O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that everything that
gets called "training wheels" in
>>>> education is bad. On the contrary,
"training wheels" are often used
>>>> as an
>>>> example of the important educational
techniques called
>>>> "scaffolding." In
>>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers
modeling, guided practice and
>>>> finally
>>>> independent practice to help a
student master tasks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with
me. Training wheels are
>>>> helpful.
>>>> They are a good thing if they are
needed. They are a bad thing
>>>> if a
>>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too
see that her student is
>>>> trying to
>>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up
rules. The teacher who presents
>>>> any
>>>> "rule" as rigid and true is
what you are railing against. However,
>>>> under
>>>> your strict anger against all
"made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>>> his
>>>> students to write complete sentences
is risking that his students
>>>> will
>>>> "internalize certain made-up
rules without actually having
>>>> internalized
>>>> the underlying skills."
Professional writers use fragments, after
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if a college student avoids
starting sentences with because
>>>> but still
>>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I
have known such students--
>>>> then I'm
>>>> thinking that, yes, those training
wheels did more harm than good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a strawman. I teach my
students to write sentences
>>>> beginning with
>>>> "because" AND I teach them
to try different sentence starts. If
>>>> you have
>>>> a student who writes unsuccessful
fragments, you can't really blame
>>>> training wheels because the biggest
"training wheel" of them all is
>>>> don't
>>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this
student is falling off the
>>>> bike with
>>>> the training wheels still attached.
You take those training wheels
>>>> off
>>>> and you will get more fragments--not
fewer. That student needs to
>>>> understand rules before she goes
free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that
using a large amount of
>>>> sentence
>>>> starter variation is a hallmark of
good writers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You
have just changed my argument.
>>>> Don't
>>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's
gettin' boring. I have never
>>>> advocated
>>>> "a large amount" of
different starts. What I have said is (barring
>>>> those
>>>> who have a rhetorical purpose) students
who start five sentences in
>>>> a row
>>>> with the same start need to change up
one or more more of them.
>>>> If there
>>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five
sentences that start with "he" or
>>>> "there
>>>> is," then it's a good training
wheel to ask students to reconsider
>>>> what
>>>> they wrote. If they can come up with
a purpose, fine. The rule
>>>> allows
>>>> for that. But if they can't, then
the rule has worked.
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> So weak writers suffer from training
wheels?
>>>>
>>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and
to which I subscribe.
>>>> So...let'e
>>>> be clear, what are all the training
wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix
metaphors and open up the
>>>> spigots.
>>>> What else? What other tactics that
are commonly found in writing
>>>> texts
>>>> do you find harmful?
>>>>
>>>> Have at it.
>>>>
>>>> But you do know what the biggest
"training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>>
>>>> I'll give you a hint it has been
condemned since the late 70's.
>>>> Our
>>>> district curriculum director won't
allow us to purchase books with
>>>> its
>>>> name in the title. And (the dead
give away) it's in the name of
>>>> this
>>>> listserv.
>>>>
>>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>>
>>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian,
>>>> I just wanted to say that I find
your contributions very
>>>> thoughtful and
>>>> helpful. I especially like the way
you bring this back to the
>>>> opening
>>>> discussion, whether weaker writers
needed 'training wheels". I
>>>> would
>>>> echo what I see as the core of your
position: they do more harm
>>>> than
>>>> good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be
more clear, too--I didn't mean
>>>> that
>>>> boring essays are a short-term
problem; I meant that some solutions
>>>> to
>>>> the problem of boring essays are
short term (or superficial)
>>>> solutions.
>>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty
of boring essays by college
>>>> students(though I'm sure I read
fewer, even as a percentage of my
>>>> total
>>>> haul of papers, than high school teachers
read--just because my
>>>> students'
>>>> high school teachers have done a good
job with them). I could
>>>> come up
>>>> with silly solutions to this
problem--use a world from a funny
>>>> vocabulary
>>>> list every few lines, or write in
rhyming couplets--which might
>>>> amuse me
>>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but
would probably not make for more
>>>> effective writing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your solution, on the other hand,
isn't silly--after all, good
>>>> writers do
>>>> include some variant sentence starts,
even if it's only 25% of the
>>>> time,
>>>> and it's not outlandish to teach
students how good writers go about
>>>> doing
>>>> this. I actually do not think that
sentence starts and coherence
>>>> are an
>>>> either/or--you've made it clear that
you teach coherence, and I
>>>> don't see
>>>> how that could be totally negated by
the little time you spend
>>>> teaching
>>>> sentence start variation. At the same
time, i would not in any way
>>>> put
>>>> coherence and sentence start
variation on the same level. Coherence
>>>> is ,
>>>> pretty much by definition, a
fundamental aspect of a reader's
>>>> experience
>>>> of a text. Sentence start variation
is...not. Most of the time,
>>>> if a
>>>> revision with more varied sentence
starts is better than the draft,
>>>> that
>>>> variation is probably an
epiphenomenon of some more significant
>>>> change--like improved coordination or
subordination, or improved
>>>> topic
>>>> focus in general. If a student thinks
that her revision
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is better is simply because she
started her sentences in more
>>>> various
>>>> ways, she may understand what really
made the revision better, and
>>>> thus
>>>> she may be less likely to transfer
her learning to the next context
>>>> and
>>>> do even better in the future. And she
may not be helped on the path
>>>> to
>>>> the (even) longer-term goal of
greater syntactical maturity (as you
>>>> put
>>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness
and control (as I put it).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that our goal (or,
one of our goals) is for our
>>>> students
>>>> to produce easy to read and
pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading--eventually. But
not necessarily while they're
>>>> in a
>>>> particular class that we happen to be
teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>>> student
>>>> experiments with more complex
thoughts and expressions, that
>>>> student's
>>>> writing may have to get more
convoluted before it gets clearer and
>>>> more
>>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give
the student advice that would
>>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable
product today over a more
>>>> deliberate and
>>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess my question for your student
would be whether, and why, he
>>>> or she
>>>> really wanted to switch the focus of
the second sentence of the
>>>> revision
>>>> from the Landon's perception to
Jamie's condition. Was there a
>>>> rhetorical
>>>> purpose, other than simply variation,
for switching from "he" to
>>>> "she" as
>>>> a subject, only to then switch back
again? If so--and there could
>>>> be such
>>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this
revision is one instance where
>>>> sentence start variation and
coherence really did conflict, and I
>>>> would
>>>> have favored coherence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still, your student is revising and
experimenting and certainly not
>>>> learning a pointless, inflexible
rule, like "every sentence must
>>>> have a
>>>> different subject." I don't
think the different sides in this
>>>> Great War
>>>> of Sentence Starters are really all
that far apart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight.
Maybe I need to be more clear
>>>> about
>>>> how much (how little) I ask students
to vary their sentence starts.
>>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around
the room as they are writing.
>>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice
lots of similar sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> (which are not interesting parallel
structure). I'll mention it to
>>>> them and they'll read it it back and
notice how it sounds to them.
>>>> They don't want to sound
"head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>>> get it, and they change it on their
own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Head-thumpingly boring"
essays are short-term problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem,
period. Bad essays are
>>>> problems
>>>> for a high school teacher who has to
read 150. They are problems
>>>> for
>>>> a college instructor who doesn't have
to read 150. The amount one
>>>> must read is irrelevant. There
should be no difference of opinion
>>>> between high school or college
instructor: if an essay is boring
>>>> to
>>>> a high school teacher, it should be
boring to a college instructor.
>>>> The boring might come from uninspired
sentence starts or from
>>>> chaotic
>>>> coherence problems. It doesn't
matter what the problem is. We can
>>>> all spot the problem and help our
students with whatever is
>>>> causing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This argument has now shifted to a
fallacious either-or. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> not true that we must pit sentence
start variation against
>>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Class size is irrelevant. An
exposure to more writing does not
>>>> make
>>>> one unable to distinguish easier
reading from head-thumping
>>>> reading.
>>>> The goal is that our students produce
easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian asks about my student's
revision, "I'm curious; how might
>>>> the passage's author respond to this
kind of advice [show me how
>>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian, that is good advice which
often includes considering varying
>>>> sentence starts. So I do have an
answer of sorts. It's
>>>> inconclusive
>>>> (it is very hard to get students to
revise). But here is her
>>>> revision:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to
leaves falling. She has
>>>> become
>>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of
weight, and he has really
>>>> started
>>>> to notice it. He had to support her
as they stood there because
>>>> she
>>>> could barely hold herself up. He is
not only realizing just her
>>>> change in weight, but it really hits
him at this point how much her
>>>> leukemia has taken over her whole
body and in such a short period
>>>> of
>>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't
have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have better writers than this. But
it's all about taking a
>>>> writer
>>>> from where she is at and suggesting
ideas that her writing shows
>>>> she
>>>> has not been considering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM,
O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems like one of the differences
of opinion here is what a
>>>> teacher should do with students who
"do not have a mature style,"
>>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them
"training wheels" (aka,
>>>> "triage" them, give them
"bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>>> more presentable in the short term,
or should we try to set them on
>>>> a path towards developing a more
mature style in the long run?
>>>> These goals don't *necessarily*
conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>>>> conflict? And when do they do
conflict, which should take priority?
>>>> I say that they do sometimes
conflict, and that when they do, long-
>>>> term improvement should take
priority.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe Susan when she says that
her young and struggling writers
>>>> hand in more readable prose when they
follow her advice to "change
>>>> up your sentence starters." But
I also agree with Craig that having
>>>> been trained this way may make it
hard for college writers to think
>>>> in terms of coherence and see the
value of repetition. If, as I
>>>> think, both Susan and Craig are
right, then the student's short
>>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their
high school teachers found a
>>>> little easier and head-thumpingly
boring to read) may not have been
>>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e,
greater difficulty in ultimately
>>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy for me to say. As a college
teacher, I have smaller class
>>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan,
and, by and large, I probably
>>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly
boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>>> repetition or "bad," by the
way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>>> tradeoffs between immediate
improvement of a paper and long-term
>>>> improvement of a writer. For example,
I've had plenty of students--
>>>> often but not always English Language
Learners--who can write
>>>> simple sentence clearly but get very
tangled up when they start
>>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of
us would encourage students
>>>> like that to only write in simple
sentences. We put up with reading
>>>> convoluted sentences so that students
can practice, and eventually
>>>> improve at, coordination and
subordination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Vary sentences starters,"
I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>>> advice as "only use simple
sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>>> my mind, is that neither piece of
advice acts as a scaffold to help
>>>> eventually students reach
"mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>>> and control.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan
and John to agree; they're
>>>> probably both thinking that I'm being
too abstract and talking
>>>> about what should be, not what is! So
I'll say how I might respond
>>>> to the student who wrote the
"Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "[Student], when I read this, I
feel like each thought is separate
>>>> from the next, and there's nothing to
show me how they connect,
>>>> which is more important than the
other, which depends on which. One
>>>> of the ways that writers fix that
kind of problem for their readers
>>>> is by combining sentences. Before
next class, can you try a few
>>>> different ways of combining those
seven sentences into three to
>>>> five sentences, and tell me which way
you like best and why? If you
>>>> take another look at that
"sentence combining" chapter we read,
>>>> that will make this easier."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The results would be less predictible
then if I just told the
>>>> student to very sentence starters, but
at least I'd be asking the
>>>> student to realize that he or she has
stylistic choices to make and
>>>> to think about the effects of those
choices on readers. And
>>>> consistently asking students to do
that can make a difference over
>>>> the long one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an
expert on pre-college writers, and
>>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's
author respond to this kind of
>>>> advice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van Druten
>>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, you have actually made my
point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You say you would "work with
this writer to subordinate,
>>>> coordinate, and
complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>>> consider more carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging
>>>> of verb choice."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I said what you just said to my
students, they would look at me
>>>> like I was trying to be
condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak
and ask them to change up
>>>> their sentence starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the student "likely [to]
produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures)
out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want"? No. I am
there in the high school
>>>> classroom. They do not create
twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>>> the core problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have expertise in this area. I
have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>>> reflect what works with my struggling
student writers. You can
>>>> keep trying to justify what you think
should work, but it conflicts
>>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John
Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not encourage this student to
vary sentence openers as
>>>> there is no problem with the sentence
openers. The writer clearly
>>>> has a focused topic in mind that will
carry forward as given
>>>> information throughout the paragraph
(if that is not an appropriate
>>>> topic for that length of time, then
that is the problem, not the
>>>> structure).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would work with this writer to
subordinate, coordinate, and
>>>> complementize/relativize clauses and
perhaps to consider more
>>>> carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation
here would seem (to me)
>>>> quite a distraction from the real
problems that indicate the
>>>> maturity of the writing. The writer
would not improve the core
>>>> problems and would likely produce
confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures)
out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Alexander
>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM,
Susan van Druten
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern
when you continue to bring up
>>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree
that purposeful repetition is
>>>> the mark of a mature style. You
should now drop that out of your
>>>> argument. In fact you should have
dropped that on after May 18th
>>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your
point. I said, "When I cover
>>>> parallel structure in AP and honors classes,
we talk about the
>>>> difference between purposeful
repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born
by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am teaching students who do not
have a mature style. I went to
>>>> school today to find you an example.
Do you or do you not agree
>>>> that the writer below could use some
advice on changing up her
>>>> sentence starts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter
than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>> fallen in autumn." He is
comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>>>> falling. He has really started to
notice it that she has become so
>>>> sick that she has lost a lot of
weight. He had to support her
>>>> because she could barely hold herself
up. He is not only realizing
>>>> just her change in weight. He sees
how much her leukemia has taken
>>>> over her whole body and in such a
short period of time. He
>>>> realizes that she doesn't have that
much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe our teaching practices
should be based on a solid
>>>> understanding of how language works.
If we tell students that
>>>> varying
>>>> sentence openings (using something
other than the subject as
>>>> opening)is
>>>> a goal of good writing, then we
should find a high number of those
>>>> variations in excellent writing. The
truth is that we don't.
>>>> As an explanation for your
motivation, you mentioned that
>>>> students
>>>> sometimes keep the same subject for
as much as five sentences in a
>>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that
good writers do this quite
>>>> often. I mentioned Frost's
"Acquainted with the Night", which
>>>> starts
>>>> every sentence with "I
have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>>> Silko's
>>>> much anthologized "Yellow
Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>>> the sentences started with
"I", many of them consecutively, and
>>>> copied
>>>> a passage from Obama's heralded
speech on race to show how he
>>>> effectively repeats the same subject
or same subject opening for
>>>> long
>>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to
imply that you are dealing with
>>>> mature writers, but starting sentences
with the subject and
>>>> repeating
>>>> sentence openers can be thought of as
the mark of a mature style.
>>>> There are good reasons for this. If
you look at information
>>>> flow in a
>>>> text (given/new), given is almost
always first and new is almost
>>>> always
>>>> last. The most important function of
a sentence opener (usually the
>>>> subject for good writers) is not
variation, but continuity. The
>>>> opening
>>>> establishes connection with what went
before. One obvious way to
>>>> accomplish that is to repeat
openings. Good writers exploit
>>>> repetition
>>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced
writers tend to move on much too
>>>> quickly.
>>>> The one place we agree, I think, is
that a number of different
>>>> structures can act as the subject of
a sentence and students should
>>>> have those available as resources. I
believe they should be used
>>>> for
>>>> continuity, though, not for
variation.
>>>> I think we have gotten confused from
time to time about what
>>>> kind of
>>>> variation we are talking about. A
variation of subject is one. A
>>>> variation of the kinds of structures
that can act as subject is
>>>> another. A variation of the kinds of
structures that open
>>>> sentences is
>>>> another.
>>>> Christensen's essay seems to me
good argument for expecting
>>>> that most
>>>> sentences will start with the subject
and that when we have
>>>> variation
>>>> form that (about 25% of the time),
those will usually be simple
>>>> adverbials.
>>>> As a more direct answer to your
question, I believe it is
>>>> harmful to
>>>> imply to students that good writers
try to vary their sentence
>>>> openings. I spend more time with my
students trying to get them
>>>> to see
>>>> how good writers use repetition,
including a repetition of
>>>> subjects, to
>>>> build coherence into texts.
>>>> I'm glad you can understand this as
a discussion about good
>>>> teaching
>>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where
you stand. Do you still
>>>> believe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to
show students various ways to
>>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to
have them try changing up
>>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't
know how you got the idea
>>>> that I
>>>> was requiring them to vary every
start in their own essays.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I enjoy the spirit of the
conversation. Just because I thought
>>>> you
>>>> were dismissing my argument and
called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe that mentoring young
people on their path toward
>>>> a mature
>>>> literacy is a very difficult process.
As teachers, we should
>>>> all be
>>>> constantly examining and refining our
practices. We are far,
>>>> far from
>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at
least equally true of our
>>>> profession
>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves,
over and over again, if
>>>> what we
>>>> are doing is best for the students we
are serving. Once you
>>>> posted to
>>>> the list that you ask students to
vary their sentence openings
>>>> to keep
>>>> from being boring, that advice became
subject to the kind of
>>>> conversation we do routinely on this
list. It has nothing at
>>>> all to do
>>>> with whether any of us believe you
are a nazi or a bad
>>>> teacher. We
>>>> simply need to be able to consider
these approaches with an
>>>> open mind.
>>>> I hope you can understand that the
spirit of conversation was
>>>> never
>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>> That being said, I would ask you to
question seriously
>>>> whether the
>>>> "style guide" you are using
is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>>> It says,
>>>> first of all, that students use
non-subject openers about 50%
>>>> of the
>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on
any kind of scholarly
>>>> study. The
>>>> studies refered to on list recently
seem to show that a
>>>> professional
>>>> writer opens with the subject much
MORE than that, at an
>>>> average of
>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in
Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>>> highest
>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional
writers. If that is the
>>>> case,
>>>> then
>>>> students already vary sentence
openings more than mature
>>>> writers. I
>>>> would add that the writers in the
study were successful, not
>>>> boring.
>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha
Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>> more linguistically sound source of
advice.
>>>> But above all, don't be shy about
joining our talk. I
>>>> apologize if
>>>> anything I said made you feel as if
you were under attack as a
>>>> teacher.
>>>> As a profession, we are still a long
way from having fully
>>>> grounded,
>>>> effective, widely accepted practices.
We need to be respectful
>>>> of each
>>>> other as we work that out, and I
apologize again for any failures
>>>> on my
>>>> part to do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can
be found in many style
>>>> guides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of
you thought I was a writing
>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never
dare repeat the same
>>>> starting word
>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should
have experienced lots more
>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>> Vary the beginnings of your
sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most writers begin about half their
sentences with the subject-
>>>> far
>>>> more than the number of sentences
begun in any other way. But
>>>> overuse of the subject-first
beginnings results in monotonous
>>>> writing. Below are several ways to
vary the beginnings of your
>>>> sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WORDS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Two adjectives: Angry
and proud, Alice resolved to
>>>> fight back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverb:
Suddenly a hissing and
>>>> clattering came
>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting word: For
students who have just
>>>> survived the
>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon,
this competitive atmosphere
>>>> is all
>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed
to being stars in high
>>>> school,
>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a
crowd of overachievers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy
body, however, is just as
>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A series of words: Light,
water, temperature,
>>>> minerals-
>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PHRASES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting phrase: If the
Soviet care and feeding of
>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it
is far from perfect. For
>>>> one
>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of
necessity they stitched all of
>>>> their secret fears and lingering
childhood nightmares into this
>>>> existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An infinitive: To be
really successful, you will
>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in
English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A gerund:
Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>> program
>>>> is essential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A participle:
Looking out of the window high
>>>> over
>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern
of a single farmhouse
>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by
another single homestead
>>>> surrounded
>>>> by fields.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An appositive: A place
of refuge, the Mission
>>>> provides
>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's
homeless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An absolute: His
fur bristling, the cat went
>>>> on the
>>>> attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverbial clause: When you
first start writing-and
>>>> I think
>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning
writers-you're scared to
>>>> death that
>>>> if you don't get that sentence right
that minute it's never
>>>> going to
>>>> show up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adjective clause: The
freshman, who was not a
>>>> joiner of
>>>> organizations, found herself
unanimously elected president of
>>>> a group
>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A noun clause: Why
earthquakes occur is a
>>>> questions to
>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean
Waldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> This is the first time you mentioned
that you teach the students
>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was
under the impression that you
>>>> just demand that they do it and grade
them on whether they do it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What method do you use to teach the
different possible
>>>> variations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Susan van Druten"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list,
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>>>>
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>>>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:19:16 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Karl, Susan, et al.,=20
I recognize option D as a good example of
parallelism. However, parallelis=
m isn't restricted to the single sentence context,
where both parts of the =
parallel structure are included in that sentence.
Consider the following:
Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of
spiders. Heather's fear =
was offset by her deep sense of compassion for
vulnerable creatures. Unlik=
e Heather, who would always put spiders safely outside
if she found them in=
the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going anywhere
near the creatures.
=20
While it's a less than polished paragraph--and I'm
prepared to be criticize=
d for bad writing, the parallelism extends across two
sentences. Obviously=
I omitted a second "her sister" to avoid
unnecessary redundancy. (I am pr=
epared to defend that seemingly redundant phrase.) =20
My point is not that D was bad but that isolated
sentences are of limited u=
sefulness in making grammaticality or stylistic
judgments. During the Gene=
rative Semantics debates of the early 70s, linguists
played around with con=
text-dependent sentences, one of the more tacky of
which was
"Spiro conjectures Ex-Lax."
which could, at the time, only be interpreted as a
response to a question l=
ike=20
"What does Pat Nixon frost her cakes with?"
I heard the sentence attributed to Jim McCawley, but I
can't find documenta=
tion of that. Whoever came up with the sentence, the
point is made in an e=
xtreme form. The sentence is simply uninterpretable
without at least an in=
ferred context. The test example is far from being so
extreme a case, but t=
he argument is pretty much the same.=20
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: 2009-06-01 20:38
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to =
30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
Although as a general principal I tend to accept
Herb's point that SAT writ=
ing
questions would be much improved if there were a
larger context in which to
judge putative errors, I agree with Susan that this
sentence needs revision
regardless of any larger context. I cannot see very
many, if any, professio=
nal
editors allowing a sentence like this to stand without
revision.
Also, I would submit that in terms of testing, there
is a substantive
difference between a question that merely asks students
if something is an
error (the SAT also has this type of question) and
questions that ask which=
is
the best among a set of alternative phrasings, as this
one does.
I'm willing to entertain the notion that the original
is arguably Standard
English, at least in the descriptive sense that many
writers produce such
sentences and readers can cope with them well enough
to infer the intended
meaning, the proposed correct answer is clearly
_better_ than the original,=
as
it directly expresses the patent sense of the sentence
without the silly
comparison of a person to a person's fear. And for
this question type,
students are being asked to pick the best version
among the alternatives.
That said, there are related constructions for which I
think Herb's point
might be argued more convincingly. In addition to
considering this problem =
as
a parallelism violation, or as an illogical
comparison, we could also call =
it
a dangling modifier. And among dangling modifiers,
there is a gradient of
obviousness. Compare, for example,
(1) Looking fetching in a strapless black dress, Bob
escorted his date to t=
he
prom.
(2) To increase beer sales, an innovative
"murketing" campaign was launched=
.
I would claim that examples like (1) are blatantly
obvious problems and tho=
se
like (2) go practically unnoticed unless you are
highly trained and reading=
in
a context, such as grading student papers or taking
the SAT, where you are
primed to look for errors. I also think that the
"Unlike..." example falls
closer to (1) in terms of obviousness.
When judging "errors," I often think of
Joseph Williams' classic article "T=
he
Phenomenology of Error", which bids us to think
about errors in terms of ho=
w
readers perceive them in authentic contexts.
In the schoolbook grammars, (1) and (2) are both
deprecated, but I'd submit
that a student who writes sentences like (1) is going
to be perceived as fa=
r
less in control of his or her writing than one who
writes sentences like (2=
).
So to the extent that a standardized test asks
questions that presuppose
sentences like (2) are errors, I am strongly inclined
to support Herb. In
point of fact, though, I don't find that the SAT does
this very often on re=
al
test questions (I've been studying them rather intently
for the last few
years), although some of the practice problems that
the College Board makes
available do have such flaws. Even without conscious
thought on the part of
the test makers, there is at least some protection in
the statistical
screening that operational test problems must endure.
Problems, for example=
,
where better students are more likely to pick an
incorrect answer than lowe=
r
students tend not to make it past the pre-testing
phrase.
Karl
Susan van Druten wrote:
> Herb claims that if the context of the paragraph
were centered around
> fear, then it would be appropriate for a writer
to create an error in
> parallelism, i.e. to compare Heather with
Joanne's fear. I am not sure
> why Herb things this. Does anyone know of any
professional example of
> non-parallel items that is not a mistake?
>=20
> This is an excellent test question. It becomes
even more obvious if you
> eliminate the interrupting clause. Unlike her
sister Heather, Joanne's
> fear kept her from going anywhere near the
creatures. The context is
> simply irrelevant.
>=20
>=20
> On May 31, 2009, at 10:35 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F
wrote:
>=20
>> There are clearly errors which are
appropriate to this technique. All
>> of this started because I objected to one
decontextualized sentence on
>> an SAT. Susan and I do not agree on this
sentence, but I maintain
>> that if standardized test developers are
going to use this technique
>> they should at least make sure their test
items are not context
>> dependent as this one is. It was a bad test
item. The technique
>> itself can be useful, but the example in
question demonstrates the
>> kind of problems that can arise. There are
whole classes of problem
>> for which the technique works.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of Scott
>> Sent: 2009-05-31 23:21
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework;
ATEG Digest - 29 May
>> 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> I concur fully with Susan van Druten's
comment: I have structured simila=
r
>> sentences for examinations.
>>
>> In response to Edmund Wright (I hope that I
remembered the name
>> correctly),
>> American High School English do not normally
have 6-7 classes;
>> however, the
>> classes are larger: My first year of
teaching, I taught five different
>> classes of 40 students each with homework
required in each subject
>> five days
>> a week (English, mathematics, General
Science, World Geography,
>> Spanish. My
>> third year, I ended up with Latin I, Latin
II, French I, French II, and
>> World History (the last was for Educable
Mentally Handicapped
>> students). My
>> fifteenth year, I did have seven classes (2
sections of English II,
>> Latin I,
>> Latin II, Latin III, Latin IV, Spanish I).
Classes only averaged 25
>> students (150 in lieu of the 200, with which
I had started); however,
>> homework was only four nights a week.
Several of the Latin classes
>> had two
>> levels in the same room.
>>
>>
>> N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD
>> Professor Emeritus
>> history & languages
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of ATEG automatic digest
>> system
>> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 12:00 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May
2009 (#2009-129)
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]
>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Susan van Druten
>> Sent: 2009-05-30 10:44
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Class size and SAT parallel
structure questions
>>
>> I agree that some test maker sometimes ask
questions based on obscure
>> rules=3D
>> , but this one seems fair to me. Comparing
"Heather" to "Joanne's
>> fear" ca=3D
>> uses the reader one second of adjustment.
Try reading the sentence
>> without=3D
>> the interrupting clause. Unlike her sister
Heather, Joanne's fear
>> kept he=3D
>> r from going anywhere near the creatures.
Parallel structures (such as
>> "unl=3D
>> ike x") set up expectations in readers.
When the writer doesn't
>> deliver, i=3D
>> t is as unsatisfying as the musician who
withholds the final note.
>>
>>
***********************************************************
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>>
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
>=20
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>=20
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>=20
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interface =
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:30:21 -0400
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F"
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: training wheels
Peter,
That's exactly what happened with "ain't."
Up into the 16th c. it was the =
standard contraction of "am not," a string
for which we now have no contrac=
tion. In some dialects of English, "ain't"
came to be used with all person=
s, and so 18th c. prescriptive grammarians rejected
"ain't" completely, in =
any usage. The result is that today, English speakers
don't even consider =
"ain't" to be a legitimate possibility for
"am not." Those who use it use =
it not only for all persons but also as a contraction
of "has/have not." S=
o the answer to your question is yes. Prescriptive
rules can bring about l=
inguistic change.
Oddly, the form persisted among the nobility. Dorothy
Sayers, who's very c=
areful with her representation of dialect and
register, has Lord Peter Wims=
ey using "I ain't" regularly. The nobility,
who didn't bother to read the =
18th c. self-help literature on how to sound like the
nobility, didn't give=
up the contraction. While it was still current in
the early 20th c., as t=
he Sayers novels demonstrate, the use of
"ain't" for "am not" has now disap=
peared among the nobility as well.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]
OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Peter Adams
Sent: 2009-06-01 20:58
Subject: Re: training wheels
Here's a scary thought. If enough teachers have
taught these
"training wheel rules" to enough generations
of students, who are now
out there teaching them to others and editing books
and periodicals
and even the NY Times, so that most people in
starting a sentence with "because" or
"there" or "and" is just plain
wrong, could what started as "training
wheels" actually become
descriptions of how the language is used? Despite
what a handful of
brilliant ATEG members think, can what started as
"training wheels"
actually become "the rules" if enough people
think they are the
rules? And then we ATEG-ers become the reactionaries
trying to resist
"change" in the language? Really scary.
[Note that, as if to prove
I'm not influenced by training wheels, I just started
a sentence with
"and."]
Peter Adams
On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:50 PM, Edgar Schuster wrote:
> I have the same concern about the training wheels
never coming off.
> I will never forget suggesting to the senior high
school teachers in
> one of the best public schools in the state of
> was OK to start a sentence with "and"
or "but," only to discover
> that the department chair had just sent out a
memo urging every
> English teacher to be on guard against this
sinful practice and join
> him in wiping it off the face of the Earth. If
college English
> teachers frequently find their students believing
such things as
> never use the passive, never begin sentences with
"there," never use
> "I" in formal writing, and such, it
would seem the training has
> lasted for 12 years.
> As for "formal" writing, what is it?
and where is it published? And
> what chance is there that more than (fill in the
number) percent of
> our students are ever going to have to write it?
>
> Ed
>
>
> On Jun 1, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Spruiell, William C
wrote:
>
>> Herb, Peter, et al.:
>>
>> I'm just kibitzing with a couple of points
(and whole-heartedly agree
>> with Herb's points about the value of this
thread) --
>>
>> (1) I think Peter's point about training
wheels being useful only
>> insofar as the students *know* they're there
and they will come off
>> eventually is a crucial one. Simplifications
used in textbooks should
>> always be accompanied by some comment,
however brief, that the actual
>> situation is more complex, and that
discussion of that will occur at
>> some later point. From what I've seen of K-12
textbooks, this kind of
>> comment is almost never added, and I have
gotten the impression at
>> times
>> that the publishers of the texts didn't
actually know that the
>> material
>> *was* a simplification (like an inset box in
one text I've examined
>> that
>> made the point that (a) dialects are very
different and quaint
>> kinds of
>> speech, like one hears in
>> it
>> was accompanied by a picture of a child in a
kilt, playing bagpipes).
>> Students are hardly ever shocked to discover
that there's more
>> complexity to a subject than they are being
asked to deal with right
>> now. They *are* annoyed when they've been
presented with something
>> as an
>> absolute fact about English and then hear
someone tell them it's
>> wrong.
>>
>>
>> (2) I always want to add a third domain to
the two Peter mentioned.
>> Grammar-as-a-discipline, like chemistry or
biology, focuses on the
>> architecture of part of our experienced
reality. Grammar-for-
>> composition
>> focuses on expression; interpretation is
automatically included the
>> minute audience awareness becomes a topic,
but it's not the primary
>> focus. As future citizens, and consumers,
students also benefit from
>> examining how language is *on* them. It's
possible to study
>> traditional
>> formal grammar and have a large amount of
practice with composition
>> without ever really noticing how
"virtually" is used as a weasel
>> word,
>> or how a politician is using a passive
construction in a way that
>> happens to omit the agent when referring to a
major problem. A
>> consciousness of grammar during
"reception" is vital, even if it's
>> unconnected to a current writing task.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Bill Spruiell
>> Dept. of English
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf
Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
>> Sent: Friday, May 29, 2009 7:54 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Peter,
>>
>> You've put your finger on precisely the
reason why the discussions of
>> how much grammar students need to know tend
break down. You write of
>> Goal Two:
>>
>> This is the goal that asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most
fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?
>>
>> But this rationale falls into the domain of
linguists, not writing
>> and
>> language arts teachers. How much students
should know about
>> language is
>> directly analogous to how much students
should know about biology, US
>> history, economics, math, etc. In contrast,
the question of how much
>> students should know about grammar does fall
much more directly
>> into the
>> domain of the writing teacher and the
language arts teacher.
>> Unfortunately, most of these people are the
beneficiaries of a half
>> century of bad teaching of and about grammar,
but, that problem
>> aside,
>> linguists and grammarians need the guidance
of writing and language
>> arts
>> teachers, and vice versa, to understand the
questions of scope and
>> sequence that K12 teachers know about that
linguists tend not to.
>>
>> I must add that this thread, training wheels
and its predecessor,
>> is one
>> of the most thoughtful and informative I've
read on this list in
>> quite a
>> while. My thanks to all who have contributed
of their knowledge,
>> experience, and expertise. It confirms the
sense of awe I have long
>> felt towards good K12 teachers.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
>> Emeritus Professor of English
>> Ball State University
>> Muncie, IN 47306
>> ________________________________________
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
Grammar
>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter
Adams [[log in to unmask]
>> ]
>> Sent: May 29, 2009 10:24 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>> I think you've put your finger on an
important issue, one I have not
>> resolved in my own mind. Put simply, the
question is how much
>> grammar
>> should students know.
>>
>> It seems to me the questions derives from two
different goals for
>> grammar instruction:
>>
>> Goal 1: To give students the capability to
produce writing that
>> conforms reasonably to the constraints of
Standard Written English.
>>
>> Goal 2: To provide students with some level
of understanding of how
>> language works. (This is the goal that
asserts that we require
>> students to know something about chemistry or
biology, why shouldn't
>> they know something about that most
fundamental aspect of our
>> humanity: our language?)
>>
>> Because these are two disparate goals, the answer
to the simple
>> question of how much grammar should students
know is difficult to
>> agree on. In addition, for those who espouse
either of these goals,
>> it is still difficult to reach agreement on
how much grammar it takes
>> to reach that goal.
>>
>> And then there is a third goal for grammar
instruction that
>> complicates the argument even further:
students need to know grammar
>> so that they have more options for how to
express their ideas.
>>
>> I fear I have made absolutely no progress
toward an answer to the
>> question I called "simple," but
perhaps I have clarified what the
>> questions are.
>>
>> Peter Adams
>>
>>
>> On May 29, 2009, at 9:45 AM, Craig Hancock
wrote:
>>
>>> I think this has the potential to be a
very rich and interesting
>>> thread, especially if we can keep it as a
discussion and agree to
>>> disagree in patient ways. I can think of
about ten points to add, so
>>> I'll resist that and try to keep it to a
few.
>>> 1) Part of the problem is created by
progressive views toward
>>> grammar
>>> that emphasize "in context"
instruction with "minimal terminology."
>>> Advocates say the students don't need a
wide understanding of
>>> grammar in
>>> order to use it, and this pressures what
I would call "soft
>>> understandings" that are never meant
as scaffolds to a deeper
>>> understanding. Some of these get
communicated as "rules" and are
>>> difficult
>>> to displace.
>>> 2) We have to be careful about what we
mean by "rule." As we
>>> observe
>>> language, we inevitably discover patterns
(rules) that the languge
>>> itself
>>> follows: for example, that given tends to
come first and new tends
>>> to come
>>> last in the information structure of a
clause. This is an
>>> observation
>>> about patterned behavior in language, not
a constraint on how to use
>>> it.
>>> Another example might be that
"because" subordinates the clause that
>>> follows it. These are not rules we can
choose to break any more than
>>> we
>>> can choose to break the law of gravity.
(Though they are more
>>> dynamic than
>>> gravity, they can't be altered at the
whim of an individual.) We can
>>> simply try to work in harmony with these
patterns, to use them
>>> purposefully.
>>> 3) Scaffolding implies that there is a
desirable level of
>>> understanding
>>> that we are working toward, but we don't
have any kind of consensus
>>> about
>>> what that understanding might entail OR
even that--for a typical
>>> educated
>>> adult--knowing about grammar is a
desirable end. For the great bulk
>>> of the
>>> population, grammar is still about how we
behave, not what we know,
>>> and it
>>> is primarily understood as a loose
collection of constraints.
>>> 4) This does not have to be an either/or
choice, since a deeper
>>> understanding of language allows someone
to make reasoned judgements
>>> about
>>> other people's rules or advice. As it
stands, the typical student is
>>> in
>>> some sort of limbo, not knowing enough
about grammar to write either
>>> effectively or "correctly".
>
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> Susan,
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised that you thought I was
"railing" and had "strict
>>>> anger." I
>>>> was feeling pretty mellow, actually.
I'm dubious about what I
>>>> called
>>>> "made-up rules"--and at
times I even venture to be critical of
>>>> them--but I
>>>> do not hate them with the undying
wrath that you seem to think
>>>> you're
>>>> picking up from me.
>>>>
>>>> We do seem to agree that something
that is sometimes called
>>>> "training
>>>> wheels" can be useful--but I
think we define that "something"
>>>> differently,
>>>> and we may have different
perspectives on the amount of damage that
>>>> has
>>>> been caused by misapplication of
training wheels. I think that
>>>> training
>>>> wheels in teh form of scaffolding
(modelling and guided practice of
>>>> skills
>>>> just at the edge of students' reach)
can be grat, while training
>>>> wheels
>>>> in the form of made-up (or, to be
more precise, unwarranted) rules
>>>> can do
>>>> more harm than good. (I would not,
however, agree with you that
>>>> teachers
>>>> who misuse training wheels are
"stupid." "Rigid" and "dogmatic,"
>>>> OK, but
>>>> "stupid" seems over the
top, don't you think?)
>>>>
>>>> I didn't say that you personally
teach students not to begin
>>>> sentences
>>>> with "because." My point
was that, whoever is teaching this "rule,"
>>>> some
>>>> students seem to believe in it for a
long time without learning
>>>> what it
>>>> was presumably intended to teach (writing
in complete sentences).
>>>> These
>>>> students get an unintended drawback
of the training wheels without
>>>> getting
>>>> much of the intended benefit--so this
is one instance of training
>>>> wheels
>>>> doing mroe harm than good. (Your
point that professional writers
>>>> use
>>>> sentence fragment is true, of course.
But I hope we can agree that
>>>> "avoid
>>>> sentence fragments," or
"write in complete sentences," is not a
>>>> made-up
>>>> rule in quite the same way that
something like "never start a
>>>> sentence
>>>> with 'because'" is a made-up
rule. The former is a norm of
>>>> effective
>>>> writing, though it can be
strategically and effectively deviated
>>>> from; the
>>>> latter is not even a norm.
>>>>
>>>> Also, I wasn't "changing your
argument"; I wasn't even
>>>> characterizing your
>>>> argument. (Actually, I avoided
characterizing it, because it hasn't
>>>> always
>>>> been been completely clear to me; at
one point, if I remember
>>>> right, you
>>>> quoted a handout that said that
experienced writers vary their
>>>> sentence
>>>> starts 50% of the time, and I thought
you were encouraging students
>>>> to try
>>>> to match that hallmark; but lately
your more moderate position has
>>>> become
>>>> more evident.) Anyway, I didn't say
that *you* "tell students that
>>>> using a
>>>> large amount of sentence starter
variation is a hallmark of good
>>>> writers";
>>>> I said that *I* would not want to
tell students that. My point was
>>>> that I
>>>> wouldn't want to make "vary
sentence structures often" a rule,
>>>> which would
>>>> be one kind of "training
wheels," because I don't think such a rule
>>>> is
>>>> borne out by the practices of strong
writers. But I wouldn't mind
>>>> modelling the effective use of
sentence straters and having
>>>> students
>>>> practice it, which is another kind of
"training wheels," or
>>>> scaffolding.
>>>> What I'm describing may not really be
very different from what you
>>>> practice; I'll leave that for you to
judge.
>>>>
>>>> I think this conversation started,
just about, when Craig said that
>>>> he
>>>> considered "vary sentence
starters" an example of bad advice. As I
>>>> now
>>>> understand your argument, you might
actually agree with Craig's
>>>> statement,
>>>> IF "very sentence
structures" is interpreted as an absolute or
>>>> near-absolute commandment. So I don't
think the different sides of
>>>> this
>>>> conversation are as far apart as they
may sometimes have seemed to
>>>> be.
>>>> They're just different enough to make
things interesting.
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 11:41 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 9:15 PM,
O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't think that everything that
gets called "training wheels" in
>>>> education is bad. On the contrary,
"training wheels" are often used
>>>> as an
>>>> example of the important educational
techniques called
>>>> "scaffolding." In
>>>> scaffolding, an instructor offers
modeling, guided practice and
>>>> finally
>>>> independent practice to help a
student master tasks
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you to argue my point with
me. Training wheels are
>>>> helpful.
>>>> They are a good thing if they are
needed. They are a bad thing
>>>> if a
>>>> dogmatic instructor is too stupid too
see that her student is
>>>> trying to
>>>> fly. Training wheels ARE made-up
rules. The teacher who presents
>>>> any
>>>> "rule" as rigid and true is
what you are railing against. However,
>>>> under
>>>> your strict anger against all
"made-up" rules, a teacher who asks
>>>> his
>>>> students to write complete sentences
is risking that his students
>>>> will
>>>> "internalize certain made-up
rules without actually having
>>>> internalized
>>>> the underlying skills."
Professional writers use fragments, after
>>>> all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But if a college student avoids
starting sentences with because
>>>> but still
>>>> writes sentence fragments--and yes, I
have known such students--
>>>> then I'm
>>>> thinking that, yes, those training
wheels did more harm than good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a strawman. I teach my
students to write sentences
>>>> beginning with
>>>> "because" AND I teach them
to try different sentence starts. If
>>>> you have
>>>> a student who writes unsuccessful
fragments, you can't really blame
>>>> training wheels because the biggest
"training wheel" of them all is
>>>> don't
>>>> use sentence fragments! Clearly this
student is falling off the
>>>> bike with
>>>> the training wheels still attached.
You take those training wheels
>>>> off
>>>> and you will get more fragments--not
fewer. That student needs to
>>>> understand rules before she goes
free-wheeling down a hill.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wouldn't want to tell students that
using a large amount of
>>>> sentence
>>>> starter variation is a hallmark of
good writers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, see, here's the problem. You
have just changed my argument.
>>>> Don't
>>>> be doin' that no more, 'kay? It's
gettin' boring. I have never
>>>> advocated
>>>> "a large amount" of
different starts. What I have said is (barring
>>>> those
>>>> who have a rhetorical purpose)
students who start five sentences in
>>>> a row
>>>> with the same start need to change up
one or more more of them.
>>>> If there
>>>> is no rhetorical purpose to five
sentences that start with "he" or
>>>> "there
>>>> is," then it's a good training
wheel to ask students to reconsider
>>>> what
>>>> they wrote. If they can come up with
a purpose, fine. The rule
>>>> allows
>>>> for that. But if they can't, then
the rule has worked.
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Thu 5/28/2009 8:09 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: training wheels
>>>>
>>>> So weak writers suffer from training
wheels?
>>>>
>>>> A lovely metaphor which I started and
to which I subscribe.
>>>> So...let'e
>>>> be clear, what are all the training
wheels you abhor? Sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> has been deemed damaging. Let's mix
metaphors and open up the
>>>> spigots.
>>>> What else? What other tactics that
are commonly found in writing
>>>> texts
>>>> do you find harmful?
>>>>
>>>> Have at it.
>>>>
>>>> But you do know what the biggest
"training wheel" is, don't you?
>>>>
>>>> I'll give you a hint it has been
condemned since the late 70's.
>>>> Our
>>>> district curriculum director won't
allow us to purchase books with
>>>> its
>>>> name in the title. And (the dead
give away) it's in the name of
>>>> this
>>>> listserv.
>>>>
>>>> Jenkies, how's that for irony?
>>>>
>>>> Hurts, donut?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 28, 2009, at 10:52 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian,
>>>> I just wanted to say that I find
your contributions very
>>>> thoughtful and
>>>> helpful. I especially like the way
you bring this back to the
>>>> opening
>>>> discussion, whether weaker writers
needed 'training wheels". I
>>>> would
>>>> echo what I see as the core of your
position: they do more harm
>>>> than
>>>> good.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Susan. Maybe I need to be
more clear, too--I didn't mean
>>>> that
>>>> boring essays are a short-term
problem; I meant that some solutions
>>>> to
>>>> the problem of boring essays are
short term (or superficial)
>>>> solutions.
>>>> As I meant to imply, I read plenty
of boring essays by college
>>>> students(though I'm sure I read
fewer, even as a percentage of my
>>>> total
>>>> haul of papers, than high school
teachers read--just because my
>>>> students'
>>>> high school teachers have done a good
job with them). I could
>>>> come up
>>>> with silly solutions to this
problem--use a world from a funny
>>>> vocabulary
>>>> list every few lines, or write in
rhyming couplets--which might
>>>> amuse me
>>>> (I have a dumb sense of humor) but
would probably not make for more
>>>> effective writing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Your solution, on the other hand,
isn't silly--after all, good
>>>> writers do
>>>> include some variant sentence starts,
even if it's only 25% of the
>>>> time,
>>>> and it's not outlandish to teach
students how good writers go about
>>>> doing
>>>> this. I actually do not think that
sentence starts and coherence
>>>> are an
>>>> either/or--you've made it clear that
you teach coherence, and I
>>>> don't see
>>>> how that could be totally negated by
the little time you spend
>>>> teaching
>>>> sentence start variation. At the same
time, i would not in any way
>>>> put
>>>> coherence and sentence start
variation on the same level. Coherence
>>>> is ,
>>>> pretty much by definition, a
fundamental aspect of a reader's
>>>> experience
>>>> of a text. Sentence start variation
is...not. Most of the time,
>>>> if a
>>>> revision with more varied sentence
starts is better than the draft,
>>>> that
>>>> variation is probably an
epiphenomenon of some more significant
>>>> change--like improved coordination or
subordination, or improved
>>>> topic
>>>> focus in general. If a student thinks
that her revision
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> is better is simply because she
started her sentences in more
>>>> various
>>>> ways, she may understand what really
made the revision better, and
>>>> thus
>>>> she may be less likely to transfer
her learning to the next context
>>>> and
>>>> do even better in the future. And she
may not be helped on the path
>>>> to
>>>> the (even) longer-term goal of
greater syntactical maturity (as you
>>>> put
>>>> it) or greater rhetorical awareness
and control (as I put it).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you that our goal (or,
one of our goals) is for our
>>>> students
>>>> to produce easy to read and
pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading--eventually. But
not necessarily while they're
>>>> in a
>>>> particular class that we happen to be
teaching. Sometimes, as a
>>>> student
>>>> experiments with more complex
thoughts and expressions, that
>>>> student's
>>>> writing may have to get more
convoluted before it gets clearer and
>>>> more
>>>> pleasureable. I wouldn't want to give
the student advice that would
>>>> privilege a clear and enjoyable
product today over a more
>>>> deliberate and
>>>> effective writing process tomorrow.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I guess my question for your student
would be whether, and why, he
>>>> or she
>>>> really wanted to switch the focus of
the second sentence of the
>>>> revision
>>>> from the Landon's perception to
Jamie's condition. Was there a
>>>> rhetorical
>>>> purpose, other than simply variation,
for switching from "he" to
>>>> "she" as
>>>> a subject, only to then switch back
again? If so--and there could
>>>> be such
>>>> a purpose--great. If not, maybe this
revision is one instance where
>>>> sentence start variation and
coherence really did conflict, and I
>>>> would
>>>> have favored coherence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Still, your student is revising and
experimenting and certainly not
>>>> learning a pointless, inflexible
rule, like "every sentence must
>>>> have a
>>>> different subject." I don't
think the different sides in this
>>>> Great War
>>>> of Sentence Starters are really all
that far apart.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van
>>>> Druten
>>>> Sent: Wed 5/27/2009 7:40 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, Brian, for some insight.
Maybe I need to be more clear
>>>> about
>>>> how much (how little) I ask students
to vary their sentence starts.
>>>> Usually, it occurs when I walk around
the room as they are writing.
>>>> I'll read over a shoulder and notice
lots of similar sentence
>>>> starts
>>>> (which are not interesting parallel
structure). I'll mention it to
>>>> them and they'll read it it back and
notice how it sounds to them.
>>>> They don't want to sound
"head-thumpingly boring to read." So they
>>>> get it, and they change it on their
own, or they'll ask for advice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Head-thumpingly boring"
essays are short-term problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Really??! Really. Really??!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bad writing is a long-term problem,
period. Bad essays are
>>>> problems
>>>> for a high school teacher who has to
read 150. They are problems
>>>> for
>>>> a college instructor who doesn't have
to read 150. The amount one
>>>> must read is irrelevant. There
should be no difference of opinion
>>>> between high school or college
instructor: if an essay is boring
>>>> to
>>>> a high school teacher, it should be
boring to a college instructor.
>>>> The boring might come from uninspired
sentence starts or from
>>>> chaotic
>>>> coherence problems. It doesn't
matter what the problem is. We can
>>>> all spot the problem and help our
students with whatever is
>>>> causing it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This argument has now shifted to a
fallacious either-or. It is
>>>> simply
>>>> not true that we must pit sentence
start variation against
>>>> coherence. Both are important.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Class size is irrelevant. An
exposure to more writing does not
>>>> make
>>>> one unable to distinguish easier
reading from head-thumping
>>>> reading.
>>>> The goal is that our students produce
easy to read and pleasurable,
>>>> informative reading.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian asks about my student's
revision, "I'm curious; how might
>>>> the passage's author respond to this
kind of advice [show me how
>>>> each sentence connects]?"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian, that is good advice which
often includes considering varying
>>>> sentence starts. So I do have an
answer of sorts. It's
>>>> inconclusive
>>>> (it is very hard to get students to
revise). But here is her
>>>> revision:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon is comparing Jamie's weight to
leaves falling. She has
>>>> become
>>>> so sick that she has lost a lot of
weight, and he has really
>>>> started
>>>> to notice it. He had to support her
as they stood there because
>>>> she
>>>> could barely hold herself up. He is
not only realizing just her
>>>> change in weight, but it really hits
him at this point how much her
>>>> leukemia has taken over her whole
body and in such a short period
>>>> of
>>>> time. He realizes that she doesn't
have that much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have better writers than this. But
it's all about taking a
>>>> writer
>>>> from where she is at and suggesting
ideas that her writing shows
>>>> she
>>>> has not been considering.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 27, 2009, at 8:21 AM,
O'Sullivan, Brian P wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It seems like one of the differences
of opinion here is what a
>>>> teacher should do with students who
"do not have a mature style,"
>>>> as Susan puts it. Should we give them
"training wheels" (aka,
>>>> "triage" them, give them
"bandaids," etc.) to make their writing
>>>> more presentable in the short term,
or should we try to set them on
>>>> a path towards developing a more
mature style in the long run?
>>>> These goals don't *necessarily*
conflict, but do they "sometimes*
>>>> conflict? And when do they do
conflict, which should take priority?
>>>> I say that they do sometimes
conflict, and that when they do, long-
>>>> term improvement should take
priority.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I believe Susan when she says that
her young and struggling writers
>>>> hand in more readable prose when they
follow her advice to "change
>>>> up your sentence starters." But
I also agree with Craig that having
>>>> been trained this way may make it
hard for college writers to think
>>>> in terms of coherence and see the
value of repetition. If, as I
>>>> think, both Susan and Craig are
right, then the student's short
>>>> term gain (i.e., papers that their
high school teachers found a
>>>> little easier and head-thumpingly
boring to read) may not have been
>>>> worth their long-term loss (i.e,
greater difficulty in ultimately
>>>> attaining a mature style).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Easy for me to say. As a college
teacher, I have smaller class
>>>> sizes and fewer classes than Susan,
and, by and large, I probably
>>>> read fewer of those head-thumpingly
boring papers. (Was that "good"
>>>> repetition or "bad," by the
way?)But college teachers, too, face
>>>> tradeoffs between immediate
improvement of a paper and long-term
>>>> improvement of a writer. For example,
I've had plenty of students--
>>>> often but not always English Language
Learners--who can write
>>>> simple sentence clearly but get very
tangled up when they start
>>>> combining clauses. I'm sure none of
us would encourage students
>>>> like that to only write in simple
sentences. We put up with reading
>>>> convoluted sentences so that students
can practice, and eventually
>>>> improve at, coordination and
subordination.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Vary sentences starters,"
I rush to admit, is not nearly such bad
>>>> advice as "only use simple
sentences" would be! The similarity, in
>>>> my mind, is that neither piece of
advice acts as a scaffold to help
>>>> eventually students reach
"mature" levels of rhetorical awareness
>>>> and control.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> At least I'm probably getting Susan
and John to agree; they're
>>>> probably both thinking that I'm being
too abstract and talking
>>>> about what should be, not what is! So
I'll say how I might respond
>>>> to the student who wrote the
"Landon says Jamie..." paragraph:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "[Student], when I read this, I
feel like each thought is separate
>>>> from the next, and there's nothing to
show me how they connect,
>>>> which is more important than the
other, which depends on which. One
>>>> of the ways that writers fix that
kind of problem for their readers
>>>> is by combining sentences. Before
next class, can you try a few
>>>> different ways of combining those seven
sentences into three to
>>>> five sentences, and tell me which way
you like best and why? If you
>>>> take another look at that
"sentence combining" chapter we read,
>>>> that will make this easier."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The results would be less predictible
then if I just told the
>>>> student to very sentence starters,
but at least I'd be asking the
>>>> student to realize that he or she has
stylistic choices to make and
>>>> to think about the effects of those
choices on readers. And
>>>> consistently asking students to do
that can make a difference over
>>>> the long one.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But Susan, I defer to you as an
expert on pre-college writers, and
>>>> I'm curious; how might the passage's
author respond to this kind of
>>>> advice?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian O'Sullivan, Ph.D.
>>>> Assistant Professor of English
>>>> Director of the Writing Center
>>>> St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>>> Montgomery Hall 50
>>>> 18952 E. Fisher Rd.
>>>> St. Mary's City, Maryland
>>>> 20686
>>>> 240-895-4242
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Susan van Druten
>>>> Sent: Tue 5/26/2009 8:56 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Sentences beginning with
conjunctions
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John, you have actually made my
point.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You say you would "work with
this writer to subordinate,
>>>> coordinate, and
complementize/relativize clauses and perhaps to
>>>> consider more carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging
>>>> of verb choice."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I said what you just said to my
students, they would look at me
>>>> like I was trying to be
condescending. So, of course, I don't say
>>>> that. Instead I just use plain-speak
and ask them to change up
>>>> their sentence starts.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Is the student "likely [to]
produce confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures)
out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want"? No. I am
there in the high school
>>>> classroom. They do not create
twisted syntax. Instead they fix
>>>> the core problem.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have expertise in this area. I
have adjusted my lofty ideas to
>>>> reflect what works with my struggling
student writers. You can
>>>> keep trying to justify what you think
should work, but it conflicts
>>>> with what I have experienced.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 6:48 PM, John
Dews-Alexander wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would not encourage this student to
vary sentence openers as
>>>> there is no problem with the sentence
openers. The writer clearly
>>>> has a focused topic in mind that will
carry forward as given
>>>> information throughout the paragraph
(if that is not an appropriate
>>>> topic for that length of time, then
that is the problem, not the
>>>> structure).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would work with this writer to
subordinate, coordinate, and
>>>> complementize/relativize clauses and
perhaps to consider more
>>>> carefully the semantic
weight/information packaging of verb choice.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Focusing on sentence opener variation
here would seem (to me)
>>>> quite a distraction from the real
problems that indicate the
>>>> maturity of the writing. The writer
would not improve the core
>>>> problems and would likely produce
confusing sentences
>>>> (unnecessarily complex structures)
out of a belief that that is
>>>> what teachers want.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Alexander
>>>> Austin, Texas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 5:19 PM,
Susan van Druten
>>>> <[log in to unmask]>
<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, you are ignoring my concern
when you continue to bring up
>>>> Frost, Obama, and Silko. We agree
that purposeful repetition is
>>>> the mark of a mature style. You
should now drop that out of your
>>>> argument. In fact you should have
dropped that on after May 18th
>>>> when I acknowledged and refuted your
point. I said, "When I cover
>>>> parallel structure in AP and honors
classes, we talk about the
>>>> difference between purposeful
repetition (emphasis, humor, known-
>>>> new, hooks, etc.) and repetition born
by uninspired, lazy writing."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am teaching students who do not
have a mature style. I went to
>>>> school today to find you an example.
Do you or do you not agree
>>>> that the writer below could use some
advice on changing up her
>>>> sentence starts?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Landon says Jamie is "lighter
than the leaves of a tree that had
>>>> fallen in autumn." He is
comparing Jamie's weight to leaves
>>>> falling. He has really started to
notice it that she has become so
>>>> sick that she has lost a lot of
weight. He had to support her
>>>> because she could barely hold herself
up. He is not only realizing
>>>> just her change in weight. He sees
how much her leukemia has taken
>>>> over her whole body and in such a
short period of time. He
>>>> realizes that she doesn't have that
much longer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 26, 2009, at 7:47 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe our teaching practices
should be based on a solid
>>>> understanding of how language works.
If we tell students that
>>>> varying
>>>> sentence openings (using something
other than the subject as
>>>> opening)is
>>>> a goal of good writing, then we
should find a high number of those
>>>> variations in excellent writing. The
truth is that we don't.
>>>> As an explanation for your
motivation, you mentioned that
>>>> students
>>>> sometimes keep the same subject for
as much as five sentences in a
>>>> row. Again, I tried to point out that
good writers do this quite
>>>> often. I mentioned Frost's
"Acquainted with the Night", which
>>>> starts
>>>> every sentence with "I
have", copied in the opening to Leslie
>>>> Silko's
>>>> much anthologized "Yellow
Woman" to show that the great majority of
>>>> the sentences started with
"I", many of them consecutively, and
>>>> copied
>>>> a passage from Obama's heralded
speech on race to show how he
>>>> effectively repeats the same subject
or same subject opening for
>>>> long
>>>> stretches of text. I don't mean to imply
that you are dealing with
>>>> mature writers, but starting
sentences with the subject and
>>>> repeating
>>>> sentence openers can be thought of as
the mark of a mature style.
>>>> There are good reasons for this. If
you look at information
>>>> flow in a
>>>> text (given/new), given is almost
always first and new is almost
>>>> always
>>>> last. The most important function of
a sentence opener (usually the
>>>> subject for good writers) is not
variation, but continuity. The
>>>> opening
>>>> establishes connection with what went
before. One obvious way to
>>>> accomplish that is to repeat
openings. Good writers exploit
>>>> repetition
>>>> for these purposes. Inexperienced
writers tend to move on much too
>>>> quickly.
>>>> The one place we agree, I think, is
that a number of different
>>>> structures can act as the subject of
a sentence and students should
>>>> have those available as resources. I
believe they should be used
>>>> for
>>>> continuity, though, not for
variation.
>>>> I think we have gotten confused from
time to time about what
>>>> kind of
>>>> variation we are talking about. A
variation of subject is one. A
>>>> variation of the kinds of structures
that can act as subject is
>>>> another. A variation of the kinds of
structures that open
>>>> sentences is
>>>> another.
>>>> Christensen's essay seems to me
good argument for expecting
>>>> that most
>>>> sentences will start with the subject
and that when we have
>>>> variation
>>>> form that (about 25% of the time),
those will usually be simple
>>>> adverbials.
>>>> As a more direct answer to your
question, I believe it is
>>>> harmful to
>>>> imply to students that good writers
try to vary their sentence
>>>> openings. I spend more time with my
students trying to get them
>>>> to see
>>>> how good writers use repetition,
including a repetition of
>>>> subjects, to
>>>> build coherence into texts.
>>>> I'm glad you can understand this as
a discussion about good
>>>> teaching
>>>> practices, not a personal criticism.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig, I'm still not clear on where
you stand. Do you still
>>>> believe
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> it is bad practice for a teacher to
show students various ways to
>>>> start sentences? Is it harmful to have
them try changing up
>>>> sentences on a worksheet? (I don't
know how you got the idea
>>>> that I
>>>> was requiring them to vary every
start in their own essays.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I enjoy the spirit of the
conversation. Just because I thought
>>>> you
>>>> were dismissing my argument and
called you on it doesn't mean I am
>>>> not enjoying myself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 24, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Craig
Hancock wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> I believe that mentoring young
people on their path toward
>>>> a mature
>>>> literacy is a very difficult process.
As teachers, we should
>>>> all be
>>>> constantly examining and refining our
practices. We are far,
>>>> far from
>>>> perfect in what we do. That is at
least equally true of our
>>>> profession
>>>> as a whole. We need to ask ourselves,
over and over again, if
>>>> what we
>>>> are doing is best for the students we
are serving. Once you
>>>> posted to
>>>> the list that you ask students to
vary their sentence openings
>>>> to keep
>>>> from being boring, that advice became
subject to the kind of
>>>> conversation we do routinely on this
list. It has nothing at
>>>> all to do
>>>> with whether any of us believe you
are a nazi or a bad
>>>> teacher. We
>>>> simply need to be able to consider
these approaches with an
>>>> open mind.
>>>> I hope you can understand that the
spirit of conversation was
>>>> never
>>>> intended to be personal.
>>>> That being said, I would ask you to
question seriously
>>>> whether the
>>>> "style guide" you are using
is at all thoughtful or accurate.
>>>> It says,
>>>> first of all, that students use
non-subject openers about 50%
>>>> of the
>>>> time. I wonder if that is based on
any kind of scholarly
>>>> study. The
>>>> studies refered to on list recently
seem to show that a
>>>> professional
>>>> writer opens with the subject much
MORE than that, at an
>>>> average of
>>>> about 75%. The lowest total in
Christensen's study was 60%, the
>>>> highest
>>>> about 90% for acclaimed professional
writers. If that is the
>>>> case,
>>>> then
>>>> students already vary sentence
openings more than mature
>>>> writers. I
>>>> would add that the writers in the
study were successful, not
>>>> boring.
>>>> I would recommend a book like Martha
Kolln's "Rhetorical
>>>> Grammar" as a
>>>> more linguistically sound source of
advice.
>>>> But above all, don't be shy about
joining our talk. I
>>>> apologize if
>>>> anything I said made you feel as if
you were under attack as a
>>>> teacher.
>>>> As a profession, we are still a long
way from having fully
>>>> grounded,
>>>> effective, widely accepted practices.
We need to be respectful
>>>> of each
>>>> other as we work that out, and I
apologize again for any failures
>>>> on my
>>>> part to do that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean, I give them a handout that can
be found in many style
>>>> guides.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm pasting it in. Sorry if some of
you thought I was a writing
>>>> Nazi, who demanded students never
dare repeat the same
>>>> starting word
>>>> in an entire essay. Yikes, I should
have experienced lots more
>>>> outrage, tar, and feathers!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sentence Beginnings
>>>> Vary the beginnings of your
sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Most writers begin about half their
sentences with the subject-
>>>> far
>>>> more than the number of sentences
begun in any other way. But
>>>> overuse of the subject-first
beginnings results in monotonous
>>>> writing. Below are several ways to
vary the beginnings of your
>>>> sentences.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WORDS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Two adjectives: Angry
and proud, Alice resolved to
>>>> fight back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverb:
Suddenly a hissing and
>>>> clattering came
>>>> from the heights around us.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting word: For
students who have just
>>>> survived the
>>>> brutal college-entrance marathon,
this competitive atmosphere
>>>> is all
>>>> too familiar. But others, accustomed
to being stars in high
>>>> school,
>>>> find themselves feeling lost in a
crowd of overachievers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An interrupting adverb: A healthy
body, however, is just as
>>>> important as a healthy mind.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A series of words: Light,
water, temperature,
>>>> minerals-
>>>> these affect the health of plants.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> PHRASES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A connecting phrase: If the
Soviet care and feeding of
>>>> athletes at times looks enviable, it
is far from perfect. For
>>>> one
>>>> thing, it can be ruthless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A prepositional phrase: Out of
necessity they stitched all of
>>>> their secret fears and lingering
childhood nightmares into this
>>>> existence.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An infinitive: To be
really successful, you will
>>>> have to be trilingual: fluent in
English, Spanish, and computer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A gerund:
Maintaining a daily exercise
>>>> program
>>>> is essential.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A participle:
Looking out of the window high
>>>> over
>>>> the state of Kansas, we see a pattern
of a single farmhouse
>>>> surrounded by fields, followed by
another single homestead
>>>> surrounded
>>>> by fields.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An appositive: A place
of refuge, the Mission
>>>> provides
>>>> food and shelter for Springfield's
homeless.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An absolute: His
fur bristling, the cat went
>>>> on the
>>>> attack.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> CLAUSES
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adverbial clause: When you
first start writing-and
>>>> I think
>>>> it's true for a lot of beginning
writers-you're scared to
>>>> death that
>>>> if you don't get that sentence right
that minute it's never
>>>> going to
>>>> show up again.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> An adjective clause: The
freshman, who was not a
>>>> joiner of
>>>> organizations, found herself
unanimously elected president of
>>>> a group
>>>> of animal lovers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A noun clause: Why
earthquakes occur is a
>>>> questions to
>>>> ask a geologist.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On May 22, 2009, at 11:05 AM, Jean
Waldman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan,
>>>> This is the first time you mentioned
that you teach the students
>>>> HOW to vary their sentences. I was
under the impression that you
>>>> just demand that they do it and grade
them on whether they do it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What method do you use to teach the
different possible
>>>> variations?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jean Waldman
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From:
"Susan van Druten"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:34:27 -0500
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
> Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of
spiders.
> Heather's fear was offset by her deep sense of
compassion for
> vulnerable creatures. Unlike Heather, who would
always put spiders
> safely outside if she found them in the house,
Joanne's fear kept
> her from going anywhere near the creatures.
Hmm, how about this:
Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel
structure provides
clarity of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's
credentials
because she knew the Emperor had a scarcity of cloth
coverage.
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:25:36 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Parallel structure and homework; ATEG
Digest - 29 May 2009 to 30 May 2009 (#2009-129)
--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I have to disagree with Susan. I think you're right on
the money as usual,
Herb. My 11th graders and I have been discussing and
working with discourse
structures, attempting to "articulate"
elements of coherence and rhetorical
force. My students have identified (I believe
rightfully so) a certain
relationship between clarity and "organic"
language (we use that to mean
natural spoken language or written language styled to
feel "natural" and
"conversational"): as one's attention to
clarity increases, one approaches a
threshhold at which the organic quality declines. In
my students' words, "If
we get too formal, we have to exclude a lot of our
best sentences."
My goal is for them to see language registers as
something other than a
concept. I want them to make a connection between
register and rhetorical
effect, and I think they're making good progress on
that discovery. Equipped
with functional knowledge of register and its force on
composition, the
students (in "the plan") will apply it
themselves.
I'm going to present your passage to them tomorrow,
Herb. I want to see what
they think about the effect of parallelism in a
broader discourse unit. It
may fit into their theory. This passage may be perfectly
understandable and
carry appropriate parallel force at the price of some
formal clarity. I
agree with you that the appropriateness is entirely
dependent on context,
but I like to let them make their own judgments.
Also, thanks for the "Spiro conjectures
Ex-Lax" example! As part of our
study of discourse, we've been looking at this very
thing -- how discourse
context can validate structure (and of course, create
meaning). I'm going to
use this example in tomorrow's class.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Susan van Druten
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of
spiders. Heather's fear
>> was offset by her deep sense of compassion
for vulnerable creatures. Unlike
>> Heather, who would always put spiders safely
outside if she found them in
>> the house, Joanne's fear kept her from going
anywhere near the creatures.
>>
>
> Hmm, how about this:
> Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel
structure provides clarity
> of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's
credentials because she knew the
> Emperor had a scarcity of cloth coverage.
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I have to disagree with Susan. I think you're
right on the money as usu=
al, Herb. My 11th graders and I have been discussing
and working with disco=
urse structures, attempting to
"articulate" elements of coherence=
and rhetorical force. My students have identified (I
believe rightfully so=
) a certain relationship between clarity and
"organic" language (=
we use that to mean natural spoken language or written
language styled to f=
eel "natural" and
"conversational"): as one's atten=
tion to clarity increases, one approaches a threshhold
at which the organic=
quality declines. In my students' words,
"If we get too formal, w=
e have to exclude a lot of our best
sentences." <br>
<br>My goal is for them to see language registers
as something other than a=
concept. I want them to make a connection between
register and rhetorical =
effect, and I think they're making good
progress on that discovery. Equ=
ipped with functional knowledge of register and its
force on composition, t=
he students (in "the plan") will
apply it themselves. <br>
<br>I'm going to present your passage to
them tomorrow, Herb. I want to=
see what they think about the effect of parallelism
in a broader discourse=
unit. It may fit into their theory. This passage may
be perfectly understa=
ndable and carry appropriate parallel force at the
price of some formal cla=
rity. I agree with you that the appropriateness is
entirely dependent on co=
ntext, but I like to let them make their own judgments.<br>
<br>Also, thanks for the "Spiro=A0
conjectures Ex-Lax" example! A=
s part of our study of discourse, we've been
looking at this very thing=
-- how discourse context can validate structure (and
of course, create mea=
ning). I'm going to use this example in
tomorrow's class.<br>
<br>John Alexander<br>Austin,
Texas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mo=
n, Jun 1, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Susan van Druten <span
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=
=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
wrote:=
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, =
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
1ex;"><div class=3D"im"=
><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,=
204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
1ex;">
Heather and her sister Joanne were both afraid of
spiders. =A0Heather's=
fear was offset by her deep sense of compassion for
vulnerable creatures. =
=A0Unlike Heather, who would always put spiders safely
outside if she found=
them in the house, Joanne's fear kept her
from going anywhere near the=
creatures.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Hmm, how about this:<br>
Unlike Herb, who was unclear about how parallel
structure provides clarity =
of thought, Susan lacked any fear of Herb's
credentials because she kne=
w the Emperor had a scarcity of cloth
coverage.<div><div></div><div class=
=3D"h5">
<br>
<br>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the
list's web interf=
ace at:<br>
=A0 =A0<a
href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D=
"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
and select "Join or leave the
list"<br>
<br>
Visit ATEG's web site at <a
href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
>http://ateg.org/</a><br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br>
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<p>
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--001e680f0b300bb947046b5442d5--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:40:14 -0500
From: John Dews-Alexander
<[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Three Goals for Teaching Grammar
--000e0cd59cc86d4f41046b547659
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Craig,
I understand completely your points. The most
difficult part of teaching
language arts teachers-in-training is getting them all
hyped to teach
grammar only to disappoint them with the reality of
support they'll likely
receive from their administrators, fellow teachers,
and textbooks. I try to
equip them to handle that reality as best I can; I point
them to resources
like ATEG, I give them lists of great texts to use as
supplements, and I
point them to scope and sequence plans available like
Ed Vavra's KISS (I may
have issues with some aspects of it, but many kudos to
him for its very
existence!). The Grammar Alive! text isn't a solution
in any way, but it's a
wonderful tool. I've always found the three goals
helpful when writing
lesson plans; they articulate nicely the "big
picture" of what I try to
accomplish.
Also, to anyone who works with teachers-in-training,
let me make a
suggestion: consider as a final project the creation
of a Scope and Sequence
for grammar teaching. I've done this with darn good
results. The students
receive the assignment on Day 1 and have all semester
to consider and
construct as they go. In nearly all cases, my past
students create a draft
early on based on their prior knowledge of
"grammar" and completely trash it
and draw up a new one by finals time. Many of these
teachers later tell me
that they still use their S&S plan when they are
unhappy with their
textbooks.
John Alexander
Austin, Texas
On Fri, May 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Craig Hancock
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> John,
> Those are worthy goals, and I echo your
endorsement of the book.
> I wasn't part of the team that produced it, but
from what I understand
> it morphed from a scope and sequence project, and
NCTE didn't want to
> go along with endorsing an actual scope and
sequence component within
> the book. The most controversial of the three
would be the second goal,
> not currently part of most English curriculumms.
Those of us who teach
> semester long grammar courses at the college
level know how amibitious
> a goal it is. But there's no place in the book
where it's stated, for
> example, that a student should know determiners
by ninth grade or modal
> auxiliaries by 11th or even that a graduating
student should be
> familiar with those categories and able to apply
them to a particular
> text. I have yet to find a student coming out of
high school who could
> meet that second goal. Mostly their knowledge of
grammar is limited to
> prescriptive rules of the questionable variety we
have been discussing.
> Is that because I teach in New York State? I'm
not sure.
> Part of our problem comes from the fact that we
are an assembly of
> NCTE. When scope and sequence came up again two
ATEG conferences ago,
> there was some concern that we should try to
lobby NCTE for change
> rather than develop an opposing program. Other
people felt, perhaps
> with some justification, that thoughful grammars
are already available,
> that we mainly need to endorse them rather than
try to develop our own.
> My own position was and has been very different
from that, but I have
> tried to be part of the loyal opposition.
> In New York state, there has been an
affirmation of "literary elements"
> in the English curriculum. Metaphor is a literary
element, but phrases
> and clauses are not. I'm not quite sure who has
decided where to draw
> the line. I think much might be gained if we can
get people to
> recognize that most great literature is simply a
highly effective use
> of ordinary language. It's hard to make the point
if the nature of
> ordinary language is below conscious radar.
> It is also hard to be in favor of teaching
grammar when the teaching of
> grammar can mean so many different things. As
Susan pointed out, most
> progressive teachers still think of it as
harmful. That doesn't
> necessarily mean that we should support ALL
teaching of grammar in
> opposition to that. It may mean admitting that
some approaches can do
> more harm than good.
>
> Craig
>
> In our most recent thread about sentence
structure, variation in style,
> > and
> > composition, the fundamental intersection of
grammar and instructional
> > goals
> > was mentioned. I want to take just a moment
to post the "Three Goals for
> > Grammar Teaching" contained in one of
my favorite texts, *Grammar Alive!
> A
> > Guide for Teachers*, written by members of
ATEG. This is just a very
> basic
> > overview; the actual text elaborates on
these goals quite elegantly. From
> > page 4 of the text:
> >
> > "Goal A:
> > Every student, from every background, will
complete school with the
> > ability
> > to communicate comfortably and effectively
in both spoken and written
> > Standard English, with awareness of when use
of Standard English is
> > appropriate.
> >
> > Goal B:
> > Every student will complete school with the
ability to analyze the
> > grammatical structure of sentences within
English texts, using
> grammatical
> > terminology correctly and demonstrating
knowledge of how sentence-level
> > grammatical structure contributes to the
coherence of paragraphs and
> > texts.
> >
> > Goal C:
> > Every student will complete school with an
understand of, and
> appreciation
> > for, the natural variation that occurs in
language across time, social
> > situation, and social group. While
recognizing the need for mastering
> > Standard English, students will also
demonstrate the understanding of the
> > equality in the expressive capacity and
linguistic structure among a
> range
> > of language varieties both vernacular and
standard, as well as an
> > understanding of language-based
prejudice."
> >
> > These goals won't make everyone happy, but I
find them to be succinct,
> > cogent, and extremely effective when
implemented. I believe that, when
> > used
> > together, these goals provide the context
(the "why are we learning
> this?"
> > solution) and the mechanics of grammar
instruction.
> >
> > I hope someone on the list who is not
familiar with them finds them
> > useful!
> >
> > John Alexander
> > Austin, Texas
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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> >
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> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
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>
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Craig,<br>=A0=A0 I understand completely your
points. The most difficult pa=
rt of teaching language arts teachers-in-training is
getting them all hyped=
to teach grammar only to disappoint them with the
reality of support they&=
#39;ll likely receive from their administrators,
fellow teachers, and textb=
ooks. I try to equip them to handle that reality as
best I can; I point the=
m to resources like ATEG, I give them lists of great
texts to use as supple=
ments, and I point them to scope and sequence plans
available like Ed Vavra=
's KISS (I may have issues with some aspects
of it, but many kudos to h=
im for its very existence!). The Grammar Alive! text
isn't a solution i=
n any way, but it's a wonderful tool.
I've always found the three g=
oals helpful when writing lesson plans; they
articulate nicely the "bi=
g picture" of what I try to
accomplish.<br>
<br>=A0=A0 Also, to anyone who works with
teachers-in-training, let me make=
a suggestion: consider as a final project the
creation of a Scope and Sequ=
ence for grammar teaching. I've done this with
darn good results. The s=
tudents receive the assignment on Day 1 and have all
semester to consider a=
nd construct as they go. In nearly all cases, my past
students create a dra=
ft early on based on their prior knowledge of
"grammar" and compl=
etely trash it and draw up a new one by finals time.
Many of these teachers=
later tell me that they still use their S&S
plan when they are unhappy=
with their textbooks. <br>
<br>John Alexander<br>Austin,
Texas<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fr=
i, May 29, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Craig Hancock <span
dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"=
mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>></span>
wrote:<br><blo=
ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
style=3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204,=
204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left:
1ex;">
John,<br>
=A0 Those are worthy goals, and I echo your
endorsement of the book.<br>
=A0 I wasn't part of the team that produced
it, but from what I unders=
tand<br>
it morphed from a scope and sequence project, and NCTE
didn't want to<b=
r>
go along with endorsing an actual scope and sequence
component within<br>
the book. The most controversial of the three would be
the second goal,<br>
not currently part of most English curriculumms. Those
of us who teach<br>
semester long grammar courses at the college level
know how amibitious<br>
a goal it is. But there's no place in the book
where it's stated, f=
or<br>
example, that a student should know determiners by
ninth grade or modal<br>
auxiliaries by 11th or even that a graduating student
should be<br>
familiar with those categories and able to apply them
to a particular<br>
text. I have yet to find a student coming out of high
school who could<br>
meet that second goal. Mostly their knowledge of
grammar is limited to<br>
prescriptive rules of the questionable variety we have
been discussing.<br>
Is that because I teach in New York State? I'm
not sure.<br>
=A0 Part of our problem comes from the fact that we
are an assembly of<br>
NCTE. When scope and sequence came up again two ATEG
conferences ago,<br>
there was some concern that we should try to lobby
NCTE for change<br>
rather than develop an opposing program. Other people
felt, perhaps<br>
with some justification, that thoughful grammars are
already available,<br>
that we mainly need to endorse them rather than try to
develop our own.<br>
My own position was and has been very different from
that, but I have<br>
tried to be part of the loyal opposition.<br>
=A0 In New York state, there has been an affirmation
of "literary ele=
ments"<br>
in the English curriculum. Metaphor is a literary
element, but phrases<br>
and clauses are not. I'm not quite sure who
has decided where to draw<b=
r>
the line. I think much might be gained if we can get
people to<br>
recognize that most great literature is simply a
highly effective use<br>
of ordinary language. It's hard to make the
point if the nature of<br>
ordinary language is below conscious radar.<br>
=A0 It is also hard to be in favor of teaching
grammar when the teaching o=
f<br>
grammar can mean so many different things. As Susan
pointed out, most<br>
progressive teachers still think of it as harmful.
That doesn't<br>
necessarily mean that we should support ALL teaching
of grammar in<br>
opposition to that. It may mean admitting that some
approaches can do<br>
more harm than good.<br>
<br>
Craig<br>
<div><div></div><div
class=3D"h5"><br>
=A0In our most recent thread about sentence structure,
variation in style,<=
br>
> and<br>
> composition, the fundamental intersection of
grammar and instructional=
<br>
> goals<br>
> was mentioned. I want to take just a moment
to post the "Three Go=
als for<br>
> Grammar Teaching" contained in one
of my favorite texts, *Grammar=
Alive! A<br>
> Guide for Teachers*, written by members of
ATEG. This is just a very b=
asic<br>
> overview; the actual text elaborates on these
goals quite elegantly. F=
rom<br>
> page 4 of the text:<br>
><br>
> "Goal A:<br>
> Every student, from every background, will
complete school with the<br=
>
> ability<br>
> to communicate comfortably and effectively in
both spoken and written<=
br>
> Standard English, with awareness of when use
of Standard English is<br=
>
> appropriate.<br>
><br>
> Goal B:<br>
> Every student will complete school with the
ability to analyze the<br>
> grammatical structure of sentences within
English texts, using grammat=
ical<br>
> terminology correctly and demonstrating
knowledge of how sentence-leve=
l<br>
> grammatical structure contributes to the
coherence of paragraphs and<b=
r>
> texts.<br>
><br>
> Goal C:<br>
> Every student will complete school with an
understand of, and apprecia=
tion<br>
> for, the natural variation that occurs in language
across time, social=
<br>
> situation, and social group. While
recognizing the need for mastering<=
br>
> Standard English, students will also
demonstrate the understanding of =
the<br>
> equality in the expressive capacity and
linguistic structure among a r=
ange<br>
> of language varieties both vernacular and
standard, as well as an<br>
> understanding of language-based
prejudice."<br>
><br>
> These goals won't make everyone
happy, but I find them to be succi=
nct,<br>
> cogent, and extremely effective when
implemented. I believe that, when=
<br>
> used<br>
> together, these goals provide the context
(the "why are we learni=
ng this?"<br>
> solution) and the mechanics of grammar
instruction.<br>
><br>
> I hope someone on the list who is not
familiar with them finds them<br=
>
> useful!<br>
><br>
> John Alexander<br>
> Austin, Texas<br>
><br>
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arget=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br>
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><br>
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------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 31 May 2009 to 1 Jun 2009 -
Special issue (#2009-131)
**************************************************************************