As far as problems coming from a study of Latin, not a living language, I gave to admit that I had been tutoring German at MSC for two quarters before the German professor caught up with me and spoke to me in German. I responded to him in German that I did not speak German. He asked me in English where I had studied German. I stated that I had never studied German but I had studied Latin. He responded that German did not come from Latin; I responded that I knew that but the author of the textbook gad a Latin grammar in front of him when he wrote the German grammar because the explanations were so Latinate. After I showed him a few examples, he admitted that I was correct. Nonetheless, he did not want me tutoring German. I said that he was not paying me so it was really none of his business. He thought it over and decided that I was right. The only worse textbook that I gave seen was in English: it gave the nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, ablative, and vocative for 'table' beginning with 'table' 'of the table' and ending with 'O table!' N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus history & languages THL Colm Dubh Herald Extraordinaire Ensign Herald, Trimaris Apprentice to Master Finn Normansson, Baron Seleone -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Saturday, October 10, 2009 12:01 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 8 Oct 2009 to 9 Oct 2009 (#2009-210) There are 2 messages totalling 343 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Delayed info on definitions of the sentence (2) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 13:16:06 -0400 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Delayed info on definitions of the sentence This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060901000201070200050809 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bill, The neat thing about having such obscure interests is that the books are almost always on the shelf when I look for them, even if under a layer of dust. I found myself a little hampered by only a vague memory of Latin, but thanks much for the heads-up. Your summary seems accurate. I was interested, too, in his comment that so many problems came from the fact that the tradition grew up around a study of Latin, not a study of a living language. Rhetoric, logic, literary analysis, grammar need to be separate, but somehow complementary, and that seems, in his view, not to be happening. The idea of a sentence as "complete thought" appears to be a semantic (or pragmatic) test, but it is being used to develop an intuitive feel for the minimum syntactic requirement. Neither rhetoric nor grammar is well served. Craig Spruiell, William C wrote: > > Hey folks -- > > > > Weeks ago, we had an exchange on the definition of a sentence as "a > complete thought," and Beth asked if anyone had ever mentioned a > source for that definition. I thought I remembered a good discussion > of it somewhere, but I couldn't recall exactly where. But now, I'm > **supposed** to be working on program review documents (complete with > mission statements), so of course I've suddenly remembered the > reference I was looking for (and have thus provided perhaps the only > extant example of a mission statement accomplishing anything useful). > > > > It's Ian Michaels's excellent _/English Grammatical Categories/_ (it > focuses on English, as the title suggests, but he gives a detailed > historical background dealing with the grammatical traditions that > Renaissance England inherited). I'm doubtless oversimplifying the > description Michaels provides (pp. 38-42), but in general the idea > that "a sentence expresses a complete thought" appears to be one > /interpretation/ of a statement made by Dionysius Thrax, a Greek > grammarian who died around 90 b.c.e. The idea was picked up by > Priscian, a sixth-century Latin grammarian whose text was one of the > core books used throughout the middle ages in Church schools (and in > Europe, those were the only kind, really). With Thrax and even > Priscian, though, "complete" can be construed as referring to whether > a group of words accomplishes the speaker's purpose, rather than > whether it conforms to the more grammatically-based notion assumed in > the modern definition of sentence. Medieval and Renaissance > grammarians used several terms for groups of words -- 'oratio,' > 'sententia' --but none of these conformed strictly to those > constructions that we'd call sentences, and no others. In some cases, > 'sententia' could be roughly equivalent to 'statement'. > > > > I'll venture a conjecture, which should not be taken as reflecting the > views of Michaels (he doesn't discuss developments post-1800): We > developed a specialized sense of "the sentence" that both shaped and > was shaped by punctuation patterns, and was keyed to the idea of a > sentence being a full statement (a subordinate clause, by itself, has > no truth value). But we kept using a translation of Priscian's > definition because....that had "always" been the definition (sorry, > Brad). And under one interpretation of Priscian's definition, > intentional fragments would be sentences. > > > > Bill Spruiell > > Dept. of English > > Central Michigan University > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060901000201070200050809 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta content="text/html;charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type"> </head> <body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Bill,<br> The neat thing about having such obscure interests is that the books are almost always on the shelf when I look for them, even if under a layer of dust. I found myself a little hampered by only a vague memory of Latin, but thanks much for the heads-up. Your summary seems accurate.<br> I was interested, too, in his comment that so many problems came from the fact that the tradition grew up around a study of Latin, not a study of a living language. Rhetoric, logic, literary analysis, grammar need to be separate, but somehow complementary, and that seems, in his view, not to be happening. <br> The idea of a sentence as "complete thought" appears to be a semantic (or pragmatic) test, but it is being used to develop an intuitive feel for the minimum syntactic requirement. <br> Neither rhetoric nor grammar is well served. <br> <br> Craig<br> Spruiell, William C wrote: <blockquote cite="mid:[log in to unmask] l" type="cite"> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; "> <meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> <style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} a:link, span.MsoHyperlink {mso-style-priority:99; color:blue; text-decoration:underline;} a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {mso-style-priority:99; color:purple; text-decoration:underline;} span.EmailStyle17 {mso-style-type:personal-compose; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> <div class="Section1"> <p class="MsoNormal">Hey folks –<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Weeks ago, we had an exchange on the definition of a sentence as “a complete thought,” and Beth asked if anyone had ever mentioned a source for that definition. I thought I remembered a good discussion of it somewhere, but I couldn’t recall exactly where. But now, I’m *<b>supposed</b>* to be working on program review documents (complete with mission statements), so of course I’ve suddenly remembered the reference I was looking for (and have thus provided perhaps the only extant example of a mission statement accomplishing anything useful). <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">It’s Ian Michaels’s excellent _<i>English Grammatical Categories</i>_ (it focuses on English, as the title suggests, but he gives a detailed historical background dealing with the grammatical traditions that Renaissance England inherited). I’m doubtless oversimplifying the description Michaels provides (pp. 38-42), but in general the idea that “a sentence expresses a complete thought” appears to be one <i>interpretation</i> of a statement made by Dionysius Thrax, a Greek grammarian who died around 90 b.c.e. The idea was picked up by Priscian, a sixth-century Latin grammarian whose text was one of the core books used throughout the middle ages in Church schools (and in Europe, those were the only kind, really). With Thrax and even Priscian, though, “complete” can be construed as referring to whether a group of words accomplishes the speaker’s purpose, rather than whether it conforms to the more grammatically-based notion assumed in the modern definition of sentence. Medieval and Renaissance grammarians used several terms for groups of words – ‘oratio,’ ‘sententia’ –but none of these conformed strictly to those constructions that we’d call sentences, and no others. In some cases, ‘sententia’ could be roughly equivalent to ‘statement’. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">I’ll venture a conjecture, which should not be taken as reflecting the views of Michaels (he doesn’t discuss developments post-1800): We developed a specialized sense of “the sentence” that both shaped and was shaped by punctuation patterns, and was keyed to the idea of a sentence being a full statement (a subordinate clause, by itself, has no truth value). But we kept using a translation of Priscian’s definition because….that had “always” been the definition (sorry, Brad). And under one interpretation of Priscian’s definition, intentional fragments would be sentences. <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Bill Spruiell<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Dept. of English<o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal">Central Michigan University <o:p></o:p></p> <p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> </div> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.muohio. edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list" <p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> </p> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060901000201070200050809-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2009 14:16:40 -0400 From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Delayed info on definitions of the sentence Thanks--this info is very interesting! (I have a stack of papers waiting = to be graded right now, so of course I am checking through all my email. = What a delight to find such a rewarding message. I'm going to try to = track down Michaels' book now.) Beth >>> "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> 10/08/09 5:21 PM >>> Hey folks - =20 Weeks ago, we had an exchange on the definition of a sentence as "a complete thought," and Beth asked if anyone had ever mentioned a source for that definition. I thought I remembered a good discussion of it somewhere, but I couldn't recall exactly where. But now, I'm *supposed* to be working on program review documents (complete with mission statements), so of course I've suddenly remembered the reference I was looking for (and have thus provided perhaps the only extant example of a mission statement accomplishing anything useful).=20 =20 It's Ian Michaels's excellent _English Grammatical Categories_ (it focuses on English, as the title suggests, but he gives a detailed historical background dealing with the grammatical traditions that Renaissance England inherited). I'm doubtless oversimplifying the description Michaels provides (pp. 38-42), but in general the idea that "a sentence expresses a complete thought" appears to be one interpretation of a statement made by Dionysius Thrax, a Greek grammarian who died around 90 b.c.e. The idea was picked up by Priscian, a sixth-century Latin grammarian whose text was one of the core books used throughout the middle ages in Church schools (and in Europe, those were the only kind, really). With Thrax and even Priscian, though, "complete" can be construed as referring to whether a group of words accomplishes the speaker's purpose, rather than whether it conforms to the more grammatically-based notion assumed in the modern definition of sentence. Medieval and Renaissance grammarians used several terms for groups of words - 'oratio,' 'sententia' -but none of these conformed strictly to those constructions that we'd call sentences, and no others. In some cases, 'sententia' could be roughly equivalent to 'statement'.=20 =20 I'll venture a conjecture, which should not be taken as reflecting the views of Michaels (he doesn't discuss developments post-1800): We developed a specialized sense of "the sentence" that both shaped and was shaped by punctuation patterns, and was keyed to the idea of a sentence being a full statement (a subordinate clause, by itself, has no truth value). But we kept using a translation of Priscian's definition because....that had "always" been the definition (sorry, Brad). And under one interpretation of Priscian's definition, intentional fragments would be sentences.=20 =20 Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University=20 =20 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 8 Oct 2009 to 9 Oct 2009 (#2009-210) ********************************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/