Thanks very much for your message, Professor Catledge. I finally got around to looking up this book you recommended last month and it does seem to be interesting, as well as something that I might benefit from, though I doubt it's available here in Saudi Arabia. If the opportunity presents itself, perhaps I can purchase a copy elsewhere. Thanks again, Adnan Ashraf ________________________________________ From: Scott [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 7:30 PM Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196) I concur with Professor Stahlke and your evaluation of his response; indeed, you have characterized most of his responses--even though I often differ with him. For further explication on 'correctness' in English--or in any language, I refer you to Joos, Martin. The five clocks. New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, 1967. It is a small, inexpensive but invaluable book. N. Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus history & languages -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Monday, September 07, 2009 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196) There are 2 messages totalling 565 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A person will be with whom he loves. (2) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 12:25:30 +0300 From: Adnan Ashraf <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. --_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Professor Stahlke: Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreci= ated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to = review some grammar texts before classes start this upcoming term. As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translat= ion of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him p= eace). Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well), Adnan Ashraf ________________________________ From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. Adnan, Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you expres= s in your posting. The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, or= headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence cont= ains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction = is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is the p= roverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day English we would,= as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such a construction since we now f= orm independent relative clauses almost exclusively with indefinite relativ= es. On your question of number, whether =93whomever=94 invites a plural interpr= etation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,=94 as an indefinite, is used gene= rically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves = but does not suggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94= has specific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear= whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference would be s= pecific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s family. You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don=92t general= ly use that word to describe the well-formedness or appropriateness of a se= ntence. The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence ina= ppropriate in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing id= entity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged app= ropriate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence with a formally c= orrect contraction might not be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness= , tends more to be scalar than categorical. Herb Stahlke Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. Emeritus Professor of English Ball State University Muncie, IN 47306 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: A person will be with whom he loves. Greetings, God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following sentence = would be considered perfect: A person will be with whom he loves. To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should re= ad: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with= the one whom he loves. However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance is= grammatically incorrect. Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the sentence = in question: A man will be with whomever he loves. Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that is= the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be with wh= om he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the prepositi= on? Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated. Thanks, Adnan Ashraf English language instructor Institute of Public Administration Jeddah, Saudi Arabia http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave= the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html dir=3D"ltr"><head> <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3DWindows-1= 252"> <style>@font-face { font-family: Cambria Math; } @font-face { font-family: Calibri; } @font-face { font-family: Tahoma; } @page Section1 {margin: 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; } P.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","seri= f" } LI.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","seri= f" } DIV.MsoNormal { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","seri= f" } A:link { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlink { COLOR: blue; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } A:visited { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed { COLOR: purple; TEXT-DECORATION: underline } P { FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman","seri= f" } SPAN.EmailStyle19 { COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri","sans-serif" } .MsoChpDefault { FONT-SIZE: 10pt } DIV.Section1 { =09 } </style> <meta content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=3D"GENERATOR"> <style title=3D"owaParaStyle"><!--P { MARGIN-TOP: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px } --></style> </head> <body lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" link=3D"blue" ocsi=3D"x"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Profess= or Stahlke:</font></div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font>= </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">Your il= luminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly appreciated, a= nd I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my motivation to re= view some grammar texts before classes start this upcoming term.</font></div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font><font face=3D"Tahoma" color= =3D"#000000" size=3D"2"></font> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"Tahoma" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"2">As for = the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a translation of = a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and grant him peace).<= /font></div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma"></font> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr">Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as= well),</div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2"></font> </div> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font face=3D"tahoma" size=3D"2">Adnan Ashraf</font></div> </font></div> <div id=3D"divRpF87102" style=3D"DIRECTION: ltr"> <hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> STAHLKE, HERBERT F [hstahlke@= BSU.EDU]<br> <b>Sent:</b> Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM<br> <b>Subject:</b> Re: A person will be with whom he loves.<br> </font><br> </div> <div></div> <div> <div class=3D"Section1"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Adnan,</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Let me address your sentence first and the= n some of the thoughts you express in your posting.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">The sentence you ask about uses what is so= metimes called an independent, or headless, relative clause, that is, a str= ucture in which the sentence contains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This construction= is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good example of it is= the proverb =93Who laughs last laughs best.=94 In Present Day Englis= h we would, as you point out, use =93whomever=94 in such a construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost exclu= sively with indefinite relatives. </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">On your question of number, whether =93who= mever=94 invites a plural interpretation, Let me suggest that =93whomever,= =94 as an indefinite, is used generically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising whom one loves but does not s= uggest a specific person. In =93whom he loves,=94 =93whom=94 has spec= ific reference. As you point out, without a head it isn=92t clear whe= ther the antecedent is singular or plural, but the reference would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such as one=92s f= amily. </span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">You ask whether the grammar of the sentenc= e is perfect. We don=92t generally use that word to describe the well= -formedness or appropriateness of a sentence. The use of =93ain=92t=94 in a sentence would make the sentence inappropria= te in most cases for formal discourse. However, in establishing ident= ity with group that uses =93ain=92t=93 regularly, it might be judged approp= riate and well-formed for that dialect, and a sentence with a formally correct contraction might not be. Grammaticality, in= cluding appropriateness, tends more to be scalar than categorical. &n= bsp; </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herb Stahlke </span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Emeritus Professor of English</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Ball State University</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'">Muncie, IN 47306</span></p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT= -FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'"></span> </p> <div> <div style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: #b= 5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: mediu= m none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none"> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tah= oma','sans-serif'">From:</span></b><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAM= ILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [= mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Adnan Ashraf<br> <b>Sent:</b> 2009-09-05 06:31<br> <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> <b>Subject:</b> A person will be with whom he loves.</span></p> </div> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-F= AMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">Greetings,</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the fol= lowing sentence would be considered <strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">perfect:</span><= /strong></span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3D"center"><span = style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 18pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">A person will= be with whom he loves.</span></p> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the se= ntence should read: A person will be with <strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">those</span></st= rong> whom he loves. - OR - A person will be with <strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">the one</span></= strong> whom he loves.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">However, I have not been able to convince myself that the f= irst instance is grammatically incorrect.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant = of the sentence in question: A man will be with <strong><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">whomever </span>= </strong>he loves.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plural= ity, and that is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person= will be with whom he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the preposition?</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated.</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Thanks, Adnan Ashraf</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">English language instructor</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Institute of Public Administration</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'">Jeddah, Saudi Arabia</span></p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> </p> </div> <div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma= ','sans-serif'"><a href=3D"http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/" tar= get=3D"_blank">http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/</a></span></p> </div> <p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th= e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html an= d select "Join or leave the list" </p> <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p> </div> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave the list" <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ </p> </div> </body> </html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_326EC266491B6C4EABAB7075C725BAC6023FC681FEIPAMainExipae_-- ----------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2009 14:46:42 -0400 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. Adnan, I'm going to ask a question about the Arabic original wording here, = because I'm curious: Does the verb in that particular relative = construction have a 3rd-person singular object suffix? If so, that might = be an additional point influencing the translator to choose "whom rather = than "whomever." Bill Spruiell -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Adnan = Ashraf Sent: Sun 9/6/2009 5:25 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. =20 Professor Stahlke: Your illuminating, thought-provoking, and quick response is greatly = appreciated, and I thank you for it. God-willing, it will add to my = motivation to review some grammar texts before classes start this = upcoming term. As for the sentence (A person will be with whom he loves), it is a = translation of a tradition of the Prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and = grant him peace). Thanks very much (and to the facilitators of this list, as well), Adnan Ashraf ________________________________ From: STAHLKE, HERBERT F [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Saturday, September 05, 2009 4:02 PM Subject: Re: A person will be with whom he loves. Adnan, Let me address your sentence first and then some of the thoughts you = express in your posting. The sentence you ask about uses what is sometimes called an independent, = or headless, relative clause, that is, a structure in which the sentence = contains no head noun for the relative pronoun to refer to. This = construction is generally considered to be a bit archaic. A good = example of it is the proverb "Who laughs last laughs best." In Present = Day English we would, as you point out, use "whomever" in such a = construction since we now form independent relative clauses almost = exclusively with indefinite relatives. On your question of number, whether "whomever" invites a plural = interpretation, Let me suggest that "whomever," as an indefinite, is = used generically here. It refers to the class of persons comprising = whom one loves but does not suggest a specific person. In "whom he = loves," "whom" has specific reference. As you point out, without a head = it isn't clear whether the antecedent is singular or plural, but the = reference would be specific, a specific person or specific people, such = as one's family. You ask whether the grammar of the sentence is perfect. We don't = generally use that word to describe the well-formedness or = appropriateness of a sentence. The use of "ain't" in a sentence would = make the sentence inappropriate in most cases for formal discourse. = However, in establishing identity with group that uses "ain't" = regularly, it might be judged appropriate and well-formed for that = dialect, and a sentence with a formally correct contraction might not = be. Grammaticality, including appropriateness, tends more to be scalar = than categorical. Herb Stahlke Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D. Emeritus Professor of English Ball State University Muncie, IN 47306 From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adnan Ashraf Sent: 2009-09-05 06:31 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: A person will be with whom he loves. Greetings, God-willing, I would like to know if the grammar of the following = sentence would be considered perfect: A person will be with whom he loves. To my ear, it sounds like something is missing, that the sentence should = read: A person will be with those whom he loves. - OR - A person will be = with the one whom he loves. However, I have not been able to convince myself that the first instance = is grammatically incorrect. Finally, I have heard somebody utter the following variant of the = sentence in question: A man will be with whomever he loves. Am I right in concluding that whomever here suggests plurality, and that = is the only way that this last sentence differs from A person will be = with whom he loves, which refers exclusively to a singular object of the = preposition? Any authoritative feedback would be appreciated. Thanks, Adnan Ashraf English language instructor Institute of Public Administration Jeddah, Saudi Arabia http://portfolio.educ.kent.edu/ashrafa/jet/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select = "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select = "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ----------------------------- End of ATEG Digest - 5 Sep 2009 to 6 Sep 2009 (#2009-196) ********************************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/