Interesting that my idiolect has an unvoiced in bequeath, booth, tollbooth, with, herewith, wherewith, and forthwith, as well as absinthe, nepenthe, and panther. All of these I heard in my youth long before I ever saw them written. For 'without," as best I can reconstruct, I speak it unvoiced but sing it voiced I also notice that I give an unlaut on the vowel for many words with the voiced th but not with the high vowel ee. My formative speech patterns were those of the educated Deep South; my only exposure to other speech patterns in my preschool years was radio: I was an addict by age two. I thought that FDR sounded really funny in his fireside chats: Mother explained that Yankees do not sound like we do when we talk but that fact does not mean that you should not listen. Do not judge the value of what someone says by how unusual he sounds. Do other educated rural/small town Southerners have the same variation that I do? If not, do any such commenters 70 and over share my speech pattern? Is it a distinction based on race? Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 Jan 2010 to 30 Jan 2010 (#2010-10) There are 3 messages totalling 242 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. unvoiced TH and voiced THE (3) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 07:33:41 +0000 From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: unvoiced TH and voiced THE I have come to notice a common preference in England for the spelling 'loath' over 'loth' (meaning 'disinclined'). I have always used the latter, following the general distinction between words that end in 'th' having that consonant unvoiced (rhyming with 'both') as against the verb 'loathe' (meaning 'intensely hate') which has the voiced consonant. However, I should not be pedantic because the addition of 'a' in the spelling usually does not disturb the application of the rule that it be unvoiced if no 'e' is added. Are 'loth' and 'loath' (as the adjective meaning 'disinclined') pronounced unvoiced in America? Indeed, a look in the dictionary shows that 'loath' -- with the unvoiced consonant -- has for a long time been used for the 'disinclined' meaning, presumably because of the semantic association between 'disinclined' and 'intensely hate'. Elsewhere the addition of 'e' (or 'er' or 'ern') does signal the voiced consonant (as well as change in the pronunciation of the vowel). The 'reverse dictionary' gives a long list, but here are a few examples: bath - bathe breath - breathe broth - brother cloth - clothe heath - heather lath - lathe, lather south - southern, southerly wreath - wreathe megalith - lithe moth - mother rath (Celtic earthwork) - rather sheath - sheathe sooth (obs. 'truth') - soothe teeth - teethe (cf. seethe) There are a few anomalies: VOICED (without added 'e' or 'er') bequeath booth, tolbooth mouth (verb meaning 'speak exaggeratedly') smooth (adj.) with (same as 'wither'), and 'wherewith', herewith', etc. UNVOICED (with added 'e' or 'er') absinthe anther ether (compare voiced 'either') lethal, Lethe nepenthe panther Edmond Dr. Edmond Wright 3 Boathouse Court Trafalgar Road Cambridge CB4 1DU England Email: [log in to unmask] Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/ Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 05:44:35 -0500 From: Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: unvoiced TH and voiced THE On 2010-01-30, at 2:33 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = wrote: > I have come to notice a common preference in England for the spelling > 'loath' over 'loth' (meaning 'disinclined'). The preference is international and historical. In fact, in the Corpus = of Current American English, 'loath' is about 50 times more common than = 'loth' where in the British National Corpus, it's only about five times = more common. > Are 'loth' and 'loath' (as the adjective > meaning 'disinclined') pronounced unvoiced in America? Merriam-Webster's online dictionary gives both voice and unvoiced with = voiceless listed first. Best, Brett ----------------------- Brett Reynolds English Language Centre Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning Toronto, Ontario, Canada [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:07:20 -0700 From: Webmail bdespain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: unvoiced TH and voiced THE --0016e6d272f7abd6d7047e616e25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Edmond, I have also noticed, at least in some regions of the U. S., that the "th" in "bequeath", "booth", and "with" have lost their voice. I think that the loss of voice in the common preposition may come in stages where some people let it vary depending on whether the next word begins with a vowel or not. Bruce On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Brett Reynolds <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > On 2010-01-30, at 2:33 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > wrote: > > > I have come to notice a common preference in England for the spelling > > 'loath' over 'loth' (meaning 'disinclined'). > > The preference is international and historical. In fact, in the Corpus of > Current American English, 'loath' is about 50 times more common than 'loth' > where in the British National Corpus, it's only about five times more > common. > > > Are 'loth' and 'loath' (as the adjective > > meaning 'disinclined') pronounced unvoiced in America? > > Merriam-Webster's online dictionary gives both voice and unvoiced with > voiceless listed first. > > Best, > Brett > > ----------------------- > Brett Reynolds > English Language Centre > Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced Learning > Toronto, Ontario, Canada > [log in to unmask] > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6d272f7abd6d7047e616e25 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div>Edmond,</div> <div>I have also noticed, at least in some regions of the U. S., that the &= quot;th" in "bequeath", "booth", and "with&qu= ot; have lost their voice.=A0 I think that the loss of voice in the common = preposition may come in stages where some people let it vary depending on w= hether the next word begins with a vowel or not.=A0 </div> <div>Bruce<br><br></div> <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 3:44 AM, Brett Reynolds = <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">brett.rey= [log in to unmask]</a>></span> wrote:<br> <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex= ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote"> <div class=3D"im">On 2010-01-30, at 2:33 AM, Assembly for the Teaching of E= nglish Grammar wrote:<br><br>> I have come to notice a common preference= in England for the spelling<br>> 'loath' over 'loth' (m= eaning 'disinclined').<br> <br></div>The preference is international and historical. In fact, in the C= orpus of Current American English, 'loath' is about 50 times more c= ommon than 'loth' where in the British National Corpus, it's on= ly about five times more common.<br> <div class=3D"im"><br>> Are 'loth' and 'loath' (as the a= djective<br>> meaning 'disinclined') pronounced unvoiced in Amer= ica?<br><br></div>Merriam-Webster's online dictionary gives both voice = and unvoiced with voiceless listed first.<br> <br>Best,<br>Brett<br><br>-----------------------<br>Brett Reynolds<br>Engl= ish Language Centre<br>Humber College Institute of Technology and Advanced = Learning<br>Toronto, Ontario, Canada<br><font color=3D"#888888"><a href=3D"= mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br> </font> <div> <div></div> <div class=3D"h5"><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the= list's web interface at:<br>=A0 =A0 <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.= edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv= es/ateg.html</a><br> and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web s= ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><= br></div></div></blockquote></div><br> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6d272f7abd6d7047e616e25-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 29 Jan 2010 to 30 Jan 2010 (#2010-10) ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/