If you only want this discussion to be between you and Herb, why don't you do it off-list?  Do you honestly think that we're waiting with bated breath to watch you and Herb banter back and forth?

Do it OFF LIST.

Erin Karl





________________________________
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, February 28, 2010 6:36:43 PM
Subject: Re: In the absence of context


Everyone please stand aside while Herb considers this explanation.

--- On Sun, 2/28/10, susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


>From: susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: In the absence of context
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 5:35 PM
>
>
>I also like leprechauns.
>
>Is this sentence grammatically correct?  Can it stand alone without context?  If it is and it can, tell me what it means, what does the speaker also like?  If you can't tell me, does that mean it is grammatically incorrect?  My God, can meaning be separated from grammar?! The horror! The horror!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>On Feb 28, 2010, at 4:16 PM, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
>STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>> 
>>Brad,
>>  
>>
>>Beyond the obvious, give me some context for each of them. 
>>  
>>
>>Herb 
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 
>>  
>>
>>Exactly, Herb.
>>  
>>IN THE ABSENCE OF CONTEXT, the first sentence is correct and the second sentence is not. 'He had walked five miles' cannot stand alone. As you require of me, not surprisingly, it needs context. The first sentence, with the simple past tense verb, does not need context. The second sentence does require context. It cannot stand alone.
>> 
>>Can the first sentence, with the simple past-tense verb, fit into a context that requires the verb to be changed to past perfect? Of course, of course, a thousand times of course.   
>> 
>>As Gerald Walton correctly put it, "He walked five miles" means that at some time in the past he walked five miles. "He had walked five miles" means that before some specific time in the past, he had walked five miles.
>> 
>>He goes on to say, What is your problem? Yesterday he walked five miles. By 4 o'clock yesterday, he had walked five miles.
>>
>> 
>>The problem is that the second sentence, to be correct, demands an element of timing, which is not there. Standing alone, as the second sentence does, there is no timing, there is no context indicating timing, and hence there is an incorrect sentence, with the word 'had' in front of the past-tense verb of the first sentence.
>> 
>>This is the crux of the problem, Gerald. If  there is either (a) no context, as with the second sentence, or (b) context that does not compel the use of the past perfect, the use of 'had' + the verb is incorrect.
>> 
>>The compelling context can, needless to say, be contained in a sentence or be outside the sentence.
>> 
>>Everyone please stand aside while Herb considers this explanation.
>> 
>>.thanks.brad.28feb10.
>>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>.
>>STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>> 
>>Brad,
>>  
>>
>>Beyond the obvious, give me some context for each of them. 
>>  
>>
>>Herb 
>>  
>>
>>
________________________________
 
>> 
>>Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> wrote: 
>>  
>>
>>Herb, 
>> 
>>
>>1.)  Please tell me what this sentence means: He walked five miles.
>> 
>>
>>2.)  Please tell me what this sentence means: He had walked five miles.
>> 
>>
>>.thanks.brad.27feb10.  
>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 
>>
>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" 
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>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ 
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