Dear Gordian Curmudgeonette,
As far as school grammar is concerned, I agree with you. I would not talk about a remote past tense simply because English doesn’t have one. Rather, and this is the crux of the argument I have with Brad, there is a construction that grammars call “past perfect” that can express more than one meaning, a situation that is certainly not unusual in language. Grammar books define tenses as verb forms. Reference grammars usually get a little more subtle than that. Linguists, which is what some of us on this list are, look at tense cross-linguistically and find that languages vary widely in what meanings they express with verb forms. In some languages, for example in East Africa, there is a form that expresses just a remote past meaning, and so we can say that those languages have a remote past tense, in contrast to, say, an immediate past tense form. English doesn’t have a separate form but it can use the past perfect to express remote past in ways that Dick, Brian, and I have illustrated.
You have, of course, the right to excoriate this discussion as of little use to the high school English teacher, and you not only have the right, but you very likely are right. Bear with us linguists on the list. We have do these things every once in a while.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Terry,Tina
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 6:40 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
OK – fair warning… I’m going to go (my own term) “all Gordian Knot” on this issue:
I think the term “remote past” appears to be essentially what attorneys – those notorious constructors of incomprehensible documents in English that no one can decipher except (allegedly) them - call a “term of art.” It could perhaps provide an informal term some might find useful to describe historic events (although the adjective “remote,” in and of itself, is entirely subjective, and would thus have to be defined as “remote” specifically relevant to a specific event in order to have any historic chronological meaning at all.)
However, to me, an English teacher, “remote past” appears to be an arbitrarily made-up, vague and wholly unsatisfactory phantom verb tense that can neither augment nor supplant any of the classic English verb tenses one uses (and teaches others to use) to describe various events that transpired in the past, are transpiring in the present, or will transpire in the future. These verb tenses are, and have been for decades, classically defined and accepted, and, IMHO, adequately cover all time frames.
Here are some resources re: English verb tenses that I use for my students:
http://esl.about.com/library/weekly/aa011201a.htm
http://esl.about.com/od/englishgrammar/a/tense_resource.htm
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/verbtenseintro.html
http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/simplepresent.html
http://www.eslteachersboard.com/pdf/Verb-Tenses3.gif
As for “remote past,” it reminds me again of attorneys (my husband and I have worked with several on writing briefs), who might refer to a poorly written law as null and void due to vagueness. See: http://law.jrank.org/pages/11152/Void-Vagueness-Doctrine.html
I’ve been trying to follow this discussion about this alleged “remote past” verb tense and I truly don’t see to what end or for what purpose such a term is even being suggested or promoted… perhaps I’m missing something, and/or perhaps I’m simply an intransigent and incorrigible curmudeonette, but such a debate seems not to be a bona fide grammatical one, but rather akin to a religious argument, sort of like the medieval one concerning many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
But then maybe I’m missing something WAY too esoteric for a mere high-school/middle-school English teacher… but honestly, I think not.
BTW, I very much like the term “jousting with phantoms” to describe this exercise.
Tina Terry - ELL Teacher
Payson High School & Rim Country Middle School
Room AUD-1 at PHS
Phone: PHS: 928-474-2233, ext. #2548
Cell phone: 928-595-0528
"To appreciate nonsense requires a serious interest in life." - Humorist & Illustrator Gelett Burgess (1866-1951)
"For myself - I am an optimist; it does not seem to be much use being anything else." (Sir Winston S. Churchill, speech at the Lord Mayor's banquest, London, Nov. 9, 1954.)
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 1:22 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Herb's remote past, continued
Brad wrote: Please tell me what 'remote past' means to you and how it works. And, importantly, illustrate it, if you please.
.brhad.26feb10.
When you use the words 'remote past', what do you mean? What is it?
By those two words, 'remote past', do you mean 'past perfect? Is 'remote past' the same as 'past perfect'? If it is, you have us jousting with phantoms.
.bradagain.
Your statement that people mistakenly use “had” before past tense verbs, that they change past tense irregular verbs to past participles after “had,” are not empirically testable statements. There is no way to know or test the writer’s intentions. Your statement that those weak verbs after what you claim are incorrect “had” are functionally past tense depends of a meaning for “functionally” that is unlike the way any grammarian or linguist uses the term. It is a subjective judgment of yours that apparently no one else is able to replicate consistently.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
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