I remember writing about these
constructions back in 1971 in a paper I did on serial verbs, a phenomenon found
widely in West Africa, East and Southeast Asia, and the
Mo gbe iSu lO si Oja (In the
absence of IPA, S is <sh> and O is “open o” as in “four”)
I pick-up yam go to market
I take yams to market.
“Gbe,” “lO,” and “si” are all verbs, but
this is a single clause. I was looking for analogous constructions in English,
and the “take/up/go/try and” constructions came the closest but really didn’t meet
the conditions for serial verbs because of the conjunction. Serial verbs, in languages
that have them, typically have only sequence to relate them, not any other
syntactic marking.
I agree with the suggestion that these are
modal-like constructions, but I think the “and” has be read differently from
the conjunction “and” as we would normally use it. I think here it has
something more like clitic status. In conjoined structures, the conjunction
can be emphasized to indicate the nature of the conjoining, but in these
constructions it can’t be. Speakers who say, “I took’n broke it,” would never
say, “I took AND broke it.” We have other function words that behave in this
way, especially “of” in partitive constructions like “a cup of coffee,” which
usually reduces to “a cuppa coffee.” In fact, in British usage “cuppa” gets
used to refer to a cup of tea, as in “I’ll have a cuppa, please.” If I
remember right, Morenberg analyzes the “of” of a partitive construction as part
of the quantity expression, not as a preposition, and I think he’s right. It
has cliticized to the quantity word and has lost its prepositional function. “And,”
in these quasi-modal constructions, is, I suspect, similar.
Herb
From:
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:50
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves
Those examples point
out the extent to which the verb after “try and” seems locked into the
infinitive as well. Now that I think about it, my strategy of treating “try
and” as a unitary modifier-kind-of-thing doesn’t give me an good way to deal
with that third-position restriction unless, as Janet mentioned, we treat the
“try and” combo as a quasimodal. “Up and” seems more flexible – “He up and
finished it,” “He’d up and finished it,” “He’ll up and run if you’re not
careful.”
Bill Spruiell
From:
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 2:48
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves
As I was trying to
explore this construction, which seems quite natural to me in speech (not
writing), it occurred to me that it didn't seem to work in the past tense or
progressive, or perfect aspects (or tenses, depending on one's terminology).
Set 1
He tried and/an use it.
He has tried an use it.
He is trying an use it.
Of course as Bill Spruiell indicated
Set 2
He tried and used it
He has tried and used it
He is trying and using it
all teh examples in set 2 involve a different interpretation and are examples
of a normal conjunction of two verbs (or VPs). (Incidentally, I don't find all
of set 2 equally probable, but all are much better than set 1.
Do others have the same restriction?
The try 'an/and' construction seems perfectly normal after modals
Set 3
positive: He may / could / should try an use it
negative: He won't / can't /shouldn't try an use it
and in imperatives:
Set 3
Try an use it
Try and take it off the top.
If these restrictions are real and not just a figment of my memory and/or
imagination, it would indicate that Bill's approach makes sense.
Peter Fries
On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Myers,
Janet,
I’ve heard it extensively in the form of the first verb being
“take” and the second being “dig,” “shovel,” “pick,” and thousands of
other verbs.
I gather nobody sees the construction as compound verbs?
From:
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 12:41
PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves
Interesting
question, Janet! This is a great example of something I'm sure we all encounter
daily, yet we often don't give it much explicit thought. I would guess that
"try'n" for "try and" is alive and well since it seems like
a pretty natural reduction in speech. This morning I heard, "You just
try'n catch me". I wouldn't have thought twice about it had I not read
your email first.
Is there a difference in meaning here that motivates the choice?
"Try and catch me."
"Try to catch me."
"Try and use it."
"Try to use it."
Or is there some grammaticalization going on?
This would be fun to discuss with my students in our weekly Language Lab. I
look forward to others' perspectives on the issue.
John
Austin, TX
On Fri, Apr 30,
2010 at 11:14 AM, Castilleja, Janet <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
Hello
Dave Wilton word origins
“Okay, so one should not try and use it as a style guide or a
reference.”
I found this in a review of Eats,
Shoots and Leaves.
This usage really bothers me. It’s just like fingernails on
a blackboard. It seems to me that one is not going to do two things: ‘try’ and
‘use.’ Rather, one is going to try to do one thing: ‘use.’ This
usage is so common that I have to wonder what is going on. Is this going
to turn into something like ‘let’s’? Will it soon be ‘try’n,’ like a sort of
quasi-semi-modal?
Opinions?
Janet
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