I remember writing about these constructions back in 1971 in a paper I did on serial verbs, a phenomenon found widely in West Africa, East and Southeast Asia, and the island of New Guinea.  In those languages typically additional verbs are used to extend valence and to combine events.  Verb phrases are used in series with no syntactic marking of relationship among them.  A typical example from Yoruba (Nigeria) is

 

Mo gbe        iSu  lO  si  Oja  (In the absence of IPA, S is <sh> and O is “open o” as in “four”)

I      pick-up yam go to market

I take yams to market.

 

“Gbe,” “lO,” and “si” are all verbs, but this is a single clause.  I was looking for analogous constructions in English, and the “take/up/go/try and” constructions came the closest but really didn’t meet the conditions for serial verbs because of the conjunction.  Serial verbs, in languages that have them, typically have only sequence to relate them, not any other syntactic marking.

 

I agree with the suggestion that these are modal-like constructions, but I think the “and” has be read differently from the conjunction “and” as we would normally use it.  I think here it has something more like clitic status.  In conjoined structures, the conjunction can be emphasized to indicate the nature of the conjoining, but in these constructions it can’t be.  Speakers who say, “I took’n broke it,” would never say, “I took AND broke it.”  We have other function words that behave in this way, especially “of” in partitive constructions like “a cup of coffee,” which usually reduces to “a cuppa coffee.”  In fact, in British usage “cuppa” gets used to refer to a cup of tea, as in “I’ll have a cuppa, please.”  If I remember right, Morenberg analyzes the “of” of a partitive construction as part of the quantity expression, not as a preposition, and I think he’s right.  It has cliticized to the quantity word and has lost its prepositional function.   “And,” in these quasi-modal constructions, is, I suspect, similar.

 

Herb

 

 


From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 4:50 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves

 

Those examples point out the extent to which the verb after “try and” seems locked into the infinitive as well. Now that I think about it, my strategy of treating “try and” as a unitary modifier-kind-of-thing doesn’t give me an good way to deal with that third-position restriction unless, as Janet mentioned, we treat the “try and” combo as a quasimodal. “Up and” seems more flexible – “He up and finished it,” “He’d up and finished it,” “He’ll up and run if you’re not careful.”  

 

Bill Spruiell

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Peter H. Fries
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 2:48 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves

 

As I was trying to explore this construction, which seems quite natural to me in speech (not writing), it occurred to me that it didn't seem to work in the past tense or progressive, or perfect aspects (or tenses, depending on one's terminology).
Set 1
He tried and/an use it.
He has tried an use it.
He is trying an use it.

Of course as Bill Spruiell indicated
Set 2
He tried and used it
He has tried and used it
He is trying and using it

all teh examples in set 2 involve a different interpretation and are examples of a normal conjunction of two verbs (or VPs). (Incidentally, I don't find all of set 2 equally probable, but all are much better than set 1.

Do others have the same restriction?

The try 'an/and' construction seems perfectly normal after modals

Set 3
positive: He may / could / should try an use it
negative: He won't / can't /shouldn't try an use it


and in imperatives:
Set 3
Try an use it
Try and take it off the top.

If these restrictions are real and not just a figment of my memory and/or imagination, it would indicate that Bill's approach makes sense.
Peter Fries

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 10:13 AM, Myers, Marshall <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Janet,

 

I’ve heard it extensively in the form of the first verb being “take” and the second being  “dig,” “shovel,” “pick,” and thousands of other verbs.

 

I gather nobody sees the construction as compound verbs?

 

Marshall

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Friday, April 30, 2010 12:41 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Pet Peeves

 

Interesting question, Janet! This is a great example of something I'm sure we all encounter daily, yet we often don't give it much explicit thought. I would guess that "try'n" for "try and" is alive and well since it seems like a pretty natural reduction in speech. This morning I heard, "You just try'n catch me". I wouldn't have thought twice about it had I not read your email first.

Is there a difference in meaning here that motivates the choice?

"Try and catch me."
"Try to catch me."

"Try and use it."
"Try to use it."

Or is there some grammaticalization going on?

This would be fun to discuss with my students in our weekly Language Lab. I look forward to others' perspectives on the issue.

John
Austin, TX

On Fri, Apr 30, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Castilleja, Janet <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

 

Hello

 

 

 

Dave Wilton word origins

 

“Okay, so one should not try and use it as a style guide or a reference.”

 

I found this in a review of Eats, Shoots and Leaves.

 

This usage really bothers me.  It’s just like fingernails on a blackboard. It seems to me that one is not going to do two things: ‘try’ and ‘use.’  Rather, one is going to try to do one thing: ‘use.’  This usage is so common that I have to wonder what is going on.  Is this going to turn into something like ‘let’s’? Will it soon be ‘try’n,’ like a sort of quasi-semi-modal?

 

Opinions?

 

Janet

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