Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_12d28af3-3ba2-4fbd-84ca-0c0c806c5528_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:32:30 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Let me add a functional reason for the syntactic behavior Bob lays out. Initial position in a sentence is typically topic position. Topics are things already known or referred to, and for that reason they will be definite. If a pronoun is used, that pronoun will usually have definite reference. While indefinite subjects are by no means impossible in English, indefinites are typically new information, and we generally put new information later in a sentence, hence the shift of the indefinite subject to after the verb. The subject position is now empty, and, English not liking null subjects, we insert "there" as a syntactic subject, subject to all of the behavior Bob describes below. In text and in speech, existential sentences overwhelmingly have indefinite noun phrases after the linking verb. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" John, Let me offer a formalist answer to your question. There in both of your examples is clearly in the subject position. I base this claim on the nature of tag questions. 1) Throckmorton is married, isn't he? In tag questions, the pronoun that is repeated in the tag question has as its antecedent the subject of the main clause. So, consider the tag questions in your two examples. 2) There never was, was there? [was is not negated because of the never and no context was necessary to figure out the tag question] 3) There was a life here then, wasn't there? If the extraposition analysis is correct, and (3) is really (4). 4) A life was here then. The tag question for (4) is 5) A life was here then, wasn't it. If that is the case and "a life" is the subject, then the tag question for 3 really should be: 6) *There was a life here then, wasn't it? And, (6) is clearly ungrammatical. The extraposition analysis requires a very separate explanation for tag questions of sentences with the existential there analysis; the there is the subject position doesn't. By the way, the there as subject position provides an explanation to the following. We know that standard English says the agreement of the verb should be based on the following following noun phrase. So, (7) is non-standard and (8) is standard. 7) There is a lot of reasons for this. 8) There are a lot of reasons for this. Many native speakers say (7) because "a lot of reasons" is not in the canonical subject position. And, let's consider conjoined noun phrases in this construction. 9) A book and a pencil are in the table. In the existential there construction, I think most of us would find 10 decidedly odd and prefer 11. 10) ?There are a book and a pencil on the table. 11) There is a book and a pencil on the table. On the other hand, this agreement principle is very much influenced by a proximity rule. 12 is not so odd. 12) There are two books and a pencil on the table. This proximity rule does not come into play for sentences like (9) 13) A book and two pencils are on the table. 14) Two pencils and a book are on the table. If the extraposition analysis is correct, the sensitivity of proximity determining agreement should not exist. *** Finally, unlike most languages of the world, English, French, German, and a few other languages of the world do not allow null forms in tensed clauses. It is for this reason that (7) is ungrammatical in English, but not in Spanish or Russian or Chinese or Japanese or most languages of the world. (15) *is raining. Bob Yates, University of Central MIssouri >>> Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> 10/28/10 7:57 AM >>> John, My own perspective on your second example would be that "there" is not the subject of the sentence, but is a place holder for the extraposed subject, which shows up on the right (other) side of the verb. You could unravel it to "A life was here then.: It's hard to explain your first example outside of context. Example (I'm guessing). "Was there ever a good reason to marry her?" "There never was." In this instance "A good reason to marry her" would be the understood subject. For some reason, we don't like to say things like "raining is," so we say "It is raining." I think "there" (in these instances) is functioning in the same way. A sentence can be called existential when you are asserting the existence of something. Your second sentence does a little more than that with "here" and "then" as modifiers. I look forward to other views. Craig On 10/27/2010 8:36 PM, John Chorazy wrote: > > Hello to all... > > Please share some wisdom on the use of "there" as an expletive > expression taking the dummy role/position as subject (not an adverb) > in the following models taken from Sam Shepard's /True West. /My > understanding is that the expletive "there" must be the subject of a > verb of existence, which happens here in the past tense, to be the > subject of a sentence... it's not in the locative, if I'm correct. > Thank you! > > "There never was." > > "There was a life here then." > > John > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High > School > > Nulla dies sine linea. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 11:59:28 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Herb, I think we have the same functional motivation behind extraposition with infinitives.We have "It is easy to love watermelon" (where "watermelon" is the new information) and "watermelon is easy to love" where "love" is prime (new) focus. The first might be an answer to "tell me about things that are easy to love." The second might be a response to "tell me about watermelons." Craig On 10/28/2010 11:32 AM, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: > Let me add a functional reason for the syntactic behavior Bob lays out. Initial position in a sentence is typically topic position. Topics are things already known or referred to, and for that reason they will be definite. If a pronoun is used, that pronoun will usually have definite reference. While indefinite subjects are by no means impossible in English, indefinites are typically new information, and we generally put new information later in a sentence, hence the shift of the indefinite subject to after the verb. The subject position is now empty, and, English not liking null subjects, we insert "there" as a syntactic subject, subject to all of the behavior Bob describes below. In text and in speech, existential sentences overwhelmingly have indefinite noun phrases after the linking verb. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:14 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" > > John, > > Let me offer a formalist answer to your question. > > There in both of your examples is clearly in the subject position. I base this claim on the nature of tag questions. > > 1) Throckmorton is married, isn't he? > > In tag questions, the pronoun that is repeated in the tag question has as its antecedent the subject of the main clause. > > So, consider the tag questions in your two examples. > > 2) There never was, was there? [was is not negated because of the never and no context was necessary to figure out the tag question] > > 3) There was a life here then, wasn't there? > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, and (3) is really (4). > > 4) A life was here then. > > The tag question for (4) is > > 5) A life was here then, wasn't it. > > If that is the case and "a life" is the subject, then the tag question for 3 really should be: > > 6) *There was a life here then, wasn't it? > > And, (6) is clearly ungrammatical. > > The extraposition analysis requires a very separate explanation for tag questions of sentences with the existential there analysis; the there is the subject position doesn't. > > By the way, the there as subject position provides an explanation to the following. > > We know that standard English says the agreement of the verb should be based on the following following noun phrase. So, (7) is non-standard and (8) is standard. > > 7) There is a lot of reasons for this. > 8) There are a lot of reasons for this. > > Many native speakers say (7) because "a lot of reasons" is not in the canonical subject position. > > And, let's consider conjoined noun phrases in this construction. > > 9) A book and a pencil are in the table. > > In the existential there construction, I think most of us would find 10 decidedly odd and prefer 11. > > 10) ?There are a book and a pencil on the table. > 11) There is a book and a pencil on the table. > > On the other hand, this agreement principle is very much influenced by a proximity rule. 12 is not so odd. > > 12) There are two books and a pencil on the table. > > This proximity rule does not come into play for sentences like (9) > > 13) A book and two pencils are on the table. > 14) Two pencils and a book are on the table. > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, the sensitivity of proximity determining agreement should not exist. > > *** > Finally, unlike most languages of the world, English, French, German, and a few other languages of the world do not allow null forms in tensed clauses. It is for this reason that (7) is ungrammatical in English, but not in Spanish or Russian or Chinese or Japanese or most languages of the world. > > (15) *is raining. > > Bob Yates, University of Central MIssouri > > >>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]> 10/28/10 7:57 AM>>> > John, > My own perspective on your second example would be that "there" is not the subject of the sentence, but is a place holder for the extraposed subject, which shows up on the right (other) side of the verb. You could unravel it to "A life was here then.: > It's hard to explain your first example outside of context. Example (I'm guessing). "Was there ever a good reason to marry her?" "There never was." In this instance "A good reason to marry her" would be the understood subject. > For some reason, we don't like to say things like "raining is," so we say "It is raining." I think "there" (in these instances) is functioning in the same way. A sentence can be called existential when you are asserting the existence of something. Your second sentence does a little more than that with "here" and "then" as modifiers. > I look forward to other views. > > Craig > > On 10/27/2010 8:36 PM, John Chorazy wrote: >> Hello to all... >> >> Please share some wisdom on the use of "there" as an expletive >> expression taking the dummy role/position as subject (not an adverb) >> in the following models taken from Sam Shepard's /True West. /My >> understanding is that the expletive "there" must be the subject of a >> verb of existence, which happens here in the past tense, to be the >> subject of a sentence... it's not in the locative, if I'm correct. >> Thank you! >> >> "There never was." >> >> "There was a life here then." >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Chorazy >> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High >> School >> >> Nulla dies sine linea. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:05:23 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: William Hillaker <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=__Part210CA953.0__=" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=__Part210CA953.0__Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-NAIMIME-Disclaimer: 1 X-NAIMIME-Modified: 1 Geoff, Granted. I spend a little time with them first looking at the ambiguity that exists between locative and the existential uses of "there" at the beginning of an expression. I do not mean to be hard and fast in taking away their "there" (no pun). I want them to be deliberate in understanding which use the author has in mind, even when they are the author, and it is more difficult to hear that use on paper than it is while conversing. With "because", they cheat with "since"; and "however", is useful instead of "and"; and we like to occasionally split infinitives. Grace and Peace, William R. D. Hillaker, M.Div English The Classical Academy [log in to unmask] Teaching faithful students who will be able to teacher others also. Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it, but those who fail to learn the lessons of history are just doomed. Would you take a few minutes from your busy day and send me an essay responding to the following question: Why has feeling good and looking good replaced being good and doing good? 500 words ought to do it. >>> Geoffrey Layton 10/28/10 11:20 AM >>> This sounds a little extreme- sort of in the same league as never starting a sentence with because, but, or and; or never ending a sentence with a preposition; or never splitting an infinitive. Not allowing sentences to start with "there" limits rhetorical effectiveness - "There are many reasons why I like to start sentences with 'there'" seems more powerful than "I like to start sentences with 'there' for many reasons." Geoff Layton My students are not allowed to write sentences beginning with THERE by reason of the unnecessary confusion. If they are writing dialogue, then I lift the rule, because vocal inflections to overcome the confusion. Scanned by GenNET AV in To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ *********************************************************************************************************************************************************** STATEMENT OF CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail transmission may contain confidential information regarding the Flint Community Schools or students of the Flint Community School system. This e-mail and any attached files are intended only for the use of the person/s or entity to which it is addressed and should be considered confidential. 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In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a question. I work with many ESL students. I teach them ( or try to) about dummy 'it' and 'there.' But, I also teach them that a verb can be compound: Joe ran to the store and bought milk. (This isn't the way I actually view this, but we are so short on time I don't want to get into ellipted clauses). Recently, a student wrote this one a paper: I chose the brand Nike because it's a popular brand and wasn't going to be hard to find sites that sell Nike. It seems as though logically the first 'it' should be able to function as the subject of the second dependent clause, but it doesn't. Is it the linking verb that is driving this? But I can say this: He was a thinker but wasn't a doer. What is going on here? Janet -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:59 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" Herb, I think we have the same functional motivation behind extraposition with infinitives.We have "It is easy to love watermelon" (where "watermelon" is the new information) and "watermelon is easy to love" where "love" is prime (new) focus. The first might be an answer to "tell me about things that are easy to love." The second might be a response to "tell me about watermelons." Craig On 10/28/2010 11:32 AM, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: > Let me add a functional reason for the syntactic behavior Bob lays out. Initial position in a sentence is typically topic position. Topics are things already known or referred to, and for that reason they will be definite. If a pronoun is used, that pronoun will usually have definite reference. While indefinite subjects are by no means impossible in English, indefinites are typically new information, and we generally put new information later in a sentence, hence the shift of the indefinite subject to after the verb. The subject position is now empty, and, English not liking null subjects, we insert "there" as a syntactic subject, subject to all of the behavior Bob describes below. In text and in speech, existential sentences overwhelmingly have indefinite noun phrases after the linking verb. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:14 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" > > John, > > Let me offer a formalist answer to your question. > > There in both of your examples is clearly in the subject position. I base this claim on the nature of tag questions. > > 1) Throckmorton is married, isn't he? > > In tag questions, the pronoun that is repeated in the tag question has as its antecedent the subject of the main clause. > > So, consider the tag questions in your two examples. > > 2) There never was, was there? [was is not negated because of the never and no context was necessary to figure out the tag question] > > 3) There was a life here then, wasn't there? > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, and (3) is really (4). > > 4) A life was here then. > > The tag question for (4) is > > 5) A life was here then, wasn't it. > > If that is the case and "a life" is the subject, then the tag question for 3 really should be: > > 6) *There was a life here then, wasn't it? > > And, (6) is clearly ungrammatical. > > The extraposition analysis requires a very separate explanation for tag questions of sentences with the existential there analysis; the there is the subject position doesn't. > > By the way, the there as subject position provides an explanation to the following. > > We know that standard English says the agreement of the verb should be based on the following following noun phrase. So, (7) is non-standard and (8) is standard. > > 7) There is a lot of reasons for this. > 8) There are a lot of reasons for this. > > Many native speakers say (7) because "a lot of reasons" is not in the canonical subject position. > > And, let's consider conjoined noun phrases in this construction. > > 9) A book and a pencil are in the table. > > In the existential there construction, I think most of us would find 10 decidedly odd and prefer 11. > > 10) ?There are a book and a pencil on the table. > 11) There is a book and a pencil on the table. > > On the other hand, this agreement principle is very much influenced by a proximity rule. 12 is not so odd. > > 12) There are two books and a pencil on the table. > > This proximity rule does not come into play for sentences like (9) > > 13) A book and two pencils are on the table. > 14) Two pencils and a book are on the table. > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, the sensitivity of proximity determining agreement should not exist. > > *** > Finally, unlike most languages of the world, English, French, German, and a few other languages of the world do not allow null forms in tensed clauses. It is for this reason that (7) is ungrammatical in English, but not in Spanish or Russian or Chinese or Japanese or most languages of the world. > > (15) *is raining. > > Bob Yates, University of Central MIssouri > > >>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]> 10/28/10 7:57 AM>>> > John, > My own perspective on your second example would be that "there" is not the subject of the sentence, but is a place holder for the extraposed subject, which shows up on the right (other) side of the verb. You could unravel it to "A life was here then.: > It's hard to explain your first example outside of context. Example (I'm guessing). "Was there ever a good reason to marry her?" "There never was." In this instance "A good reason to marry her" would be the understood subject. > For some reason, we don't like to say things like "raining is," so we say "It is raining." I think "there" (in these instances) is functioning in the same way. A sentence can be called existential when you are asserting the existence of something. Your second sentence does a little more than that with "here" and "then" as modifiers. > I look forward to other views. > > Craig > > On 10/27/2010 8:36 PM, John Chorazy wrote: >> Hello to all... >> >> Please share some wisdom on the use of "there" as an expletive >> expression taking the dummy role/position as subject (not an adverb) >> in the following models taken from Sam Shepard's /True West. /My >> understanding is that the expletive "there" must be the subject of a >> verb of existence, which happens here in the past tense, to be the >> subject of a sentence... it's not in the locative, if I'm correct. >> Thank you! >> >> "There never was." >> >> "There was a life here then." >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Chorazy >> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High >> School >> >> Nulla dies sine linea. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:03:01 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Janet, The first "it" stands in for Nike, so it can't also function as a simple placeholder. Compounding requires parallelism. The missing (implied) "It' gets processed as pronoun and then fails to work. You can easily say "I chose the brand Nike because it is a popular brand and can be found at a number of sites." You can easily say "I chose the brand Nike because it is a popular brand and wasn't going to be hard to find." Or "I chose the brand Nike because it is a popular brand and finding sites that sell it wouldn't be hard." I hope that makes some sense. Craig On 10/28/2010 12:28 PM, Castilleja, Janet wrote: > I have a question. I work with many ESL students. I teach them ( or > try to) about dummy 'it' and 'there.' But, I also teach them that a > verb can be compound: Joe ran to the store and bought milk. (This isn't > the way I actually view this, but we are so short on time I don't want > to get into ellipted clauses). Recently, a student wrote this one a > paper: > > I chose the brand Nike because it's a popular brand and wasn't going to > be hard to find sites that sell Nike. > > It seems as though logically the first 'it' should be able to function > as the subject of the second dependent clause, but it doesn't. Is it > the linking verb that is driving this? But I can say this: > > He was a thinker but wasn't a doer. > > What is going on here? > > Janet > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:59 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" > > Herb, > I think we have the same functional motivation behind extraposition > with infinitives.We have "It is easy to love watermelon" (where > "watermelon" is the new information) and "watermelon is easy to love" > where "love" is prime (new) focus. The first might be an answer to "tell > > me about things that are easy to love." The second might be a response > to "tell me about watermelons." > > > Craig > > On 10/28/2010 11:32 AM, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: >> Let me add a functional reason for the syntactic behavior Bob lays > out. Initial position in a sentence is typically topic position. > Topics are things already known or referred to, and for that reason they > will be definite. If a pronoun is used, that pronoun will usually have > definite reference. While indefinite subjects are by no means > impossible in English, indefinites are typically new information, and we > generally put new information later in a sentence, hence the shift of > the indefinite subject to after the verb. The subject position is now > empty, and, English not liking null subjects, we insert "there" as a > syntactic subject, subject to all of the behavior Bob describes below. > In text and in speech, existential sentences overwhelmingly have > indefinite noun phrases after the linking verb. >> Herb >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates >> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:14 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" >> >> John, >> >> Let me offer a formalist answer to your question. >> >> There in both of your examples is clearly in the subject position. I > base this claim on the nature of tag questions. >> 1) Throckmorton is married, isn't he? >> >> In tag questions, the pronoun that is repeated in the tag question has > as its antecedent the subject of the main clause. >> So, consider the tag questions in your two examples. >> >> 2) There never was, was there? [was is not negated because of the > never and no context was necessary to figure out the tag question] >> 3) There was a life here then, wasn't there? >> >> If the extraposition analysis is correct, and (3) is really (4). >> >> 4) A life was here then. >> >> The tag question for (4) is >> >> 5) A life was here then, wasn't it. >> >> If that is the case and "a life" is the subject, then the tag question > for 3 really should be: >> 6) *There was a life here then, wasn't it? >> >> And, (6) is clearly ungrammatical. >> >> The extraposition analysis requires a very separate explanation for > tag questions of sentences with the existential there analysis; the > there is the subject position doesn't. >> By the way, the there as subject position provides an explanation to > the following. >> We know that standard English says the agreement of the verb should be > based on the following following noun phrase. So, (7) is non-standard > and (8) is standard. >> 7) There is a lot of reasons for this. >> 8) There are a lot of reasons for this. >> >> Many native speakers say (7) because "a lot of reasons" is not in the > canonical subject position. >> And, let's consider conjoined noun phrases in this construction. >> >> 9) A book and a pencil are in the table. >> >> In the existential there construction, I think most of us would find > 10 decidedly odd and prefer 11. >> 10) ?There are a book and a pencil on the table. >> 11) There is a book and a pencil on the table. >> >> On the other hand, this agreement principle is very much influenced by > a proximity rule. 12 is not so odd. >> 12) There are two books and a pencil on the table. >> >> This proximity rule does not come into play for sentences like (9) >> >> 13) A book and two pencils are on the table. >> 14) Two pencils and a book are on the table. >> >> If the extraposition analysis is correct, the sensitivity of > proximity determining agreement should not exist. >> *** >> Finally, unlike most languages of the world, English, French, German, > and a few other languages of the world do not allow null forms in tensed > clauses. It is for this reason that (7) is ungrammatical in English, > but not in Spanish or Russian or Chinese or Japanese or most languages > of the world. >> (15) *is raining. >> >> Bob Yates, University of Central MIssouri >> >> >>>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]> 10/28/10 7:57 AM>>> >> John, >> My own perspective on your second example would be that "there" > is not the subject of the sentence, but is a place holder for the > extraposed subject, which shows up on the right (other) side of the > verb. You could unravel it to "A life was here then.: >> It's hard to explain your first example outside of context. > Example (I'm guessing). "Was there ever a good reason to marry her?" > "There never was." In this instance "A good reason to marry her" would > be the understood subject. >> For some reason, we don't like to say things like "raining is," > so we say "It is raining." I think "there" (in these instances) is > functioning in the same way. A sentence can be called existential when > you are asserting the existence of something. Your second sentence does > a little more than that with "here" and "then" as modifiers. >> I look forward to other views. >> >> Craig >> >> On 10/27/2010 8:36 PM, John Chorazy wrote: >>> Hello to all... >>> >>> Please share some wisdom on the use of "there" as an expletive >>> expression taking the dummy role/position as subject (not an adverb) >>> in the following models taken from Sam Shepard's /True West. /My >>> understanding is that the expletive "there" must be the subject of a >>> verb of existence, which happens here in the past tense, to be the >>> subject of a sentence... it's not in the locative, if I'm correct. >>> Thank you! >>> >>> "There never was." >>> >>> "There was a life here then." >>> >>> John >>> >>> >>> >>> John Chorazy >>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High >>> School >>> >>> Nulla dies sine linea. >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select >>> "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 13:08:38 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5686ECE7EMAILBACKEND0_" MIME-Version: 1.0 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Our movement rules generally are functionally motivated. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:59 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" Herb, I think we have the same functional motivation behind extraposition with infinitives.We have "It is easy to love watermelon" (where "watermelon" is the new information) and "watermelon is easy to love" where "love" is prime (new) focus. The first might be an answer to "tell me about things that are easy to love." The second might be a response to "tell me about watermelons." Craig On 10/28/2010 11:32 AM, Stahlke, Herbert F.W. wrote: > Let me add a functional reason for the syntactic behavior Bob lays out. Initial position in a sentence is typically topic position. Topics are things already known or referred to, and for that reason they will be definite. If a pronoun is used, that pronoun will usually have definite reference. While indefinite subjects are by no means impossible in English, indefinites are typically new information, and we generally put new information later in a sentence, hence the shift of the indefinite subject to after the verb. The subject position is now empty, and, English not liking null subjects, we insert "there" as a syntactic subject, subject to all of the behavior Bob describes below. In text and in speech, existential sentences overwhelmingly have indefinite noun phrases after the linking verb. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 11:14 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" > > John, > > Let me offer a formalist answer to your question. > > There in both of your examples is clearly in the subject position. I base this claim on the nature of tag questions. > > 1) Throckmorton is married, isn't he? > > In tag questions, the pronoun that is repeated in the tag question has as its antecedent the subject of the main clause. > > So, consider the tag questions in your two examples. > > 2) There never was, was there? [was is not negated because of the never and no context was necessary to figure out the tag question] > > 3) There was a life here then, wasn't there? > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, and (3) is really (4). > > 4) A life was here then. > > The tag question for (4) is > > 5) A life was here then, wasn't it. > > If that is the case and "a life" is the subject, then the tag question for 3 really should be: > > 6) *There was a life here then, wasn't it? > > And, (6) is clearly ungrammatical. > > The extraposition analysis requires a very separate explanation for tag questions of sentences with the existential there analysis; the there is the subject position doesn't. > > By the way, the there as subject position provides an explanation to the following. > > We know that standard English says the agreement of the verb should be based on the following following noun phrase. So, (7) is non-standard and (8) is standard. > > 7) There is a lot of reasons for this. > 8) There are a lot of reasons for this. > > Many native speakers say (7) because "a lot of reasons" is not in the canonical subject position. > > And, let's consider conjoined noun phrases in this construction. > > 9) A book and a pencil are in the table. > > In the existential there construction, I think most of us would find 10 decidedly odd and prefer 11. > > 10) ?There are a book and a pencil on the table. > 11) There is a book and a pencil on the table. > > On the other hand, this agreement principle is very much influenced by a proximity rule. 12 is not so odd. > > 12) There are two books and a pencil on the table. > > This proximity rule does not come into play for sentences like (9) > > 13) A book and two pencils are on the table. > 14) Two pencils and a book are on the table. > > If the extraposition analysis is correct, the sensitivity of proximity determining agreement should not exist. > > *** > Finally, unlike most languages of the world, English, French, German, and a few other languages of the world do not allow null forms in tensed clauses. It is for this reason that (7) is ungrammatical in English, but not in Spanish or Russian or Chinese or Japanese or most languages of the world. > > (15) *is raining. > > Bob Yates, University of Central MIssouri > > >>>> Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]> 10/28/10 7:57 AM>>> > John, > My own perspective on your second example would be that "there" is not the subject of the sentence, but is a place holder for the extraposed subject, which shows up on the right (other) side of the verb. You could unravel it to "A life was here then.: > It's hard to explain your first example outside of context. Example (I'm guessing). "Was there ever a good reason to marry her?" "There never was." In this instance "A good reason to marry her" would be the understood subject. > For some reason, we don't like to say things like "raining is," so we say "It is raining." I think "there" (in these instances) is functioning in the same way. A sentence can be called existential when you are asserting the existence of something. Your second sentence does a little more than that with "here" and "then" as modifiers. > I look forward to other views. > > Craig > > On 10/27/2010 8:36 PM, John Chorazy wrote: >> Hello to all... >> >> Please share some wisdom on the use of "there" as an expletive >> expression taking the dummy role/position as subject (not an adverb) >> in the following models taken from Sam Shepard's /True West. /My >> understanding is that the expletive "there" must be the subject of a >> verb of existence, which happens here in the past tense, to be the >> subject of a sentence... it's not in the locative, if I'm correct. >> Thank you! >> >> "There never was." >> >> "There was a life here then." >> >> John >> >> >> >> John Chorazy >> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High >> School >> >> Nulla dies sine linea. >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and >> select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Oct 2010 12:29:56 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: if need be In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED28309A47C0LSCSMAILCLSCS_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED28309A47C0LSCSMAILCLSCS_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's a use of the subjunctive. From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:33 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: if need be I just wrote a sentence to a parent whose child may not be able to come to our tutoring appointment: "We'll find another time if need be." What is this construction? Jane Saral To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED28309A47C0LSCSMAILCLSCS_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It’s a use of the subjunctive.
From: Assembly for the
Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane
Saral
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2010 8:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: if need be
I just wrote a sentence to a parent whose child may not be
able to come to our tutoring appointment: "We'll find another time
if need be."
What is this construction?
Jane Saral
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED28309A47C0LSCSMAILCLSCS_-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 00:27:51 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ftJ4fzyGqFvGaZsrlBI/HA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ftJ4fzyGqFvGaZsrlBI/HA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Good evening... Thanks to all for the wealth of information regarding my question. Even the differing impressions offer good dialogue and shed insight, and for that I'm appreciative. I'll include herein some context for the sentence models, but I rather liked your notions based on the bare models alone first. Though certainly we understand exactly what Austin means here because of context, my close reading attempted to unpack Shepard's specific use of language in this section. The play between "there," "it," "that," and "here" is fascinating as a subject of its own; "It" as a much larger symbol than impersonal pronoun, "there" and "here" as geographical landmarks imbued with meaning, sense of place and/or disclocation, etc... Thanks again. LEE: It’s not somethin’ you learn out of a Boy Scout Handbook! AUSTIN: Well how do you learn it then! How’re you supposed to learn it! LEE: (stands) What’re you, crazy or somethin’? You went to college. Here, you are down here, rollin’ in bucks. Floatin’ up and down in elevators. And you wanna’ learn how to live on the desert! AUSTIN: I do, Lee. I really do. There’s nothin’ down here for me. There never was. When we were kids here it was different. There was a life here then. But now—I keep coming’ down here thinkin’ it’s the fifties or somethin’. I keep finding myself getting off the freeway at familiar landmarks that turn out to be unfamiliar. On the way to appointments. Wandering down streets I thought I recognized that turn out to be replicas of streets I remember. Streets I misremember. Streets I can’t tell if I lived on or saw in a postcard. Fields that don’t even exist anymore. LEE: There’s no point cryin’ about that now. Sincerely, John John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_ftJ4fzyGqFvGaZsrlBI/HA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline
LEE: It’s not somethin’ you learn out of a Boy Scout Handbook!
AUSTIN: Well how do you learn it then! How’re you supposed to learn it!
LEE: (stands) What’re you, crazy or somethin’? You went to college. Here, you are down here, rollin’ in bucks. Floatin’ up and down in elevators. And you wanna’ learn how to live on the desert!
AUSTIN: I do, Lee. I really do. There’s nothin’ down here for me. There never was. When we were kids here it was different. There was a life here then. But now—I keep coming’ down here thinkin’ it’s the fifties or somethin’. I keep finding myself getting off the freeway at familiar landmarks that turn out to be unfamiliar. On the way to appointments. Wandering down streets I thought I recognized that turn out to be replicas of streets I remember. Streets I misremember. Streets I can’t tell if I lived on or saw in a postcard. Fields that don’t even exist anymore.
LEE: There’s no point cryin’ about that now.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_ftJ4fzyGqFvGaZsrlBI/HA)-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 12:05:55 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Question about expletive "there" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------070400090307090505010806" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------070400090307090505010806 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id o9TG6lKt009641 John, This is powerful material. As grammarians and English teachers, we could spend much more time on the power of crafted speech, which is pretty much all a dramatist has to work with. It's certainly highly elliptical. To me, the "it"'s that show up early turn out (retroactively) to be pronouns, standing in for "how to live in the desert." Then in Austin's second speech, we get existential "there"'s. I'm not quite sure about "it" in "it was different." In context, I would be tempted to say it's a pronoun reference to "life" or "the emotional feel of life," but existential I think would be the usual analysis. The next "it" in "it's the fifties" would seem to me to stand in for "the present time" or "the times when I come down here." "I keep coming down here thinking that I am still living in the fifties." I was a little confused by "there never was [something here for me]" followed by "When we were kids it was different," though a speaker in a play can certainly change his/her mind in mid-speech. It seems like a contradiction. Nice passage. Craig On 10/28/2010 8:27 PM, John Chorazy wrote: > Good evening... Thanks to all for the wealth of information regarding > my question. Even the differing impressions offer good dialogue and > shed insight, and for that I'm appreciative. > I'll include herein some context for the sentence models, but I rather > liked your notions based on the bare models alone first. Though > certainly we understand exactly what Austin means here because of > context, my close reading attempted to unpack Shepard's specific use > of language in this section. The play between "there," "it," "that," > and "here" is fascinating as a subject of its own; "It" as a much > larger symbol than impersonal pronoun, "there" and "here" as > geographical landmarks imbued with meaning, sense of place and/or > disclocation, etc... Thanks again. > > LEE: It’s not somethin’ you learn out of a Boy Scout Handbook! > > AUSTIN: Well how do you learn it then! How’re you supposed to learn it! > > LEE: (/stands/) What’re you, crazy or somethin’? You went to college. > Here, you are down here, rollin’ in bucks. Floatin’ up and down in > elevators. And you wanna’ learn how to live on the desert! > > AUSTIN: I do, Lee. I really do. There’s nothin’ down here for me. > There never was. When we were kids here it was different. There was a > life here then. But now—I keep coming’ down here thinkin’ it’s the > fifties or somethin’. I keep finding myself getting off the freeway at > familiar landmarks that turn out to be unfamiliar. On the way to > appointments. Wandering down streets I thought I recognized that turn > out to be replicas of streets I remember. Streets I misremember. > Streets I can’t tell if I lived on or saw in a postcard. Fields that > don’t even exist anymore. > > LEE: There’s no point cryin’ about that now. > > Sincerely, > John > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic > Pequannock Township High School > > Nulla dies sine linea. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------070400090307090505010806 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id o9TG6lKt009641
John,[log in to unmask]" type="cite">Good evening... Thanks to all for the wealth of information regarding my question. Even the differing impressions offer good dialogue and shed insight, and for that I'm appreciative.I'll include herein some context for the sentence models, but I rather liked your notions based on the bare models alone first. Though certainly we understand exactly what Austin means here because of context, my close reading attempted to unpack Shepard's specific use of language in this section. The play between "there," "it," "that," and "here" is fascinating as a subject of its own; "It" as a much larger symbol than impersonal pronoun, "there" and "here" as geographical landmarks imbued with meaning, sense of place and/or disclocation, etc... Thanks again.LEE: It’s not somethin’ you learn out of a Boy Scout Handbook!
AUSTIN: Well how do you learn it then! How’re you supposed to learn it!
LEE: (stands) What’re you, crazy or somethin’? You went to college. Here, you are down here, rollin’ in bucks. Floatin’ up and down in elevators. And you wanna’ learn how to live on the desert!
AUSTIN: I do, Lee. I really do. There’s nothin’ down here for me. There never was. When we were kids here it was different. There was a life here then. But now—I keep coming’ down here thinkin’ it’s the fifties or somethin’. I keep finding myself getting off the freeway at familiar landmarks that turn out to be unfamiliar. On the way to appointments. Wandering down streets I thought I recognized that turn out to be replicas of streets I remember. Streets I misremember. Streets I can’t tell if I lived on or saw in a postcard. Fields that don’t even exist anymore.
LEE: There’s no point cryin’ about that now.
Sincerely,John
John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic
Pequannock Township High School
Nulla dies sine linea.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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