Susan,
So, now you are an expert psychologist who has the powers to divine how Brad is going to answer to Jack? My, my! Besides, your manners are very bad. If I had to try to divine, too, what kind of character is hiding behind your messages (Which I am not going to do!), I would say that your profile is that of a single and bitter woman over fifty, desperate for attention and willing to do anything to get it. So sad!
But, of course, I have no divining powers, so I will not attempt to profile you. You may have just had a bad day and were in a bad mood when you wrote the message to Jack.
No offense intended.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 15:28
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
To: [log in to unmask]
> Hi Jack,
>
> The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from
> him) will not answer your two questions. His asking you
> about your ability to read encoded text is so that he can avoid
> responding to your questions by inundating you with irrelevant
> examples.
>
> Watch and see. It's practically a science.
>
> Happy new year,
> Susan
>
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is all coming through.
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can
> you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? ..
> so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is
> underlined and this is in italics?
> >
> > .brad.28dec10.
> >
> > From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Brad:
> >
> > You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the
> suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the
> past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the
> first of two actions that occurred at different points in the
> past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action
> in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the
> action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am
> wrong.>
> > All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past
> perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if
> all the other sources are wrong?
> >
> > If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg
> your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your
> response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
> >
> > Jack
> > [log in to unmask]
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an
> English teacher -- "what is the past perfect?" And they think,
> (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the past perfect is. But
> then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I better
> look it up, just to be sure.
> >
> > The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action
> or state completed at of before a past time spoken of"
> <Webster's 11th Edition>. They think, hmmm. The battle of
> Hastings had been fought before the Magna Carta was signed? That
> doesn't work, so maybe I should look elsewhere. (Webster's has
> agreed, by the way, to reconsider their entry for the present
> perfect before the 12th Edition goes to press, as well they
> should; they made a mess of it.)
> >
> > Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation
> in the past that came before another situation in the past.
> (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the
> past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the
> present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English
> Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
> >
> > Maybe since we got our language from the Latins, we should
> look there. Let's see. "The pluperfect tense indicates an action
> that takes place more in the past or prior to another past
> action." Hey, are these people copying from each other?
> <Latin for Dummies, Hull, Perkins, et al.>
> >
> > Quirk, Greenbaum, et al, don't try to define it, but they
> give, among other illustrations, "The goalkeeper had injured his
> leg and couldn't play", and "He had died in 1920, before his son
> was born".
> >
> > "The past perfect tense describes an action completed sometime
> in the past", <Columbia Guide to Standard American English, 1993>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense indicates that one past event preceded
> another", <Handbook of Technical Writing, Alred, Brusaw &
> Oliu, 2003>
> >
> > "The pluperfect is a compound tense conjugated with avoir and
> etre and is used to say what had happened", <Teach Yourself
> French Grammar, Sidwell & Haviland> (Isn't this a dandy?)
> >
> > "The past perfect is a perfective tense used to express action
> completed in the past", <The Free Dictionary>
> >
> > "The past perfect - An event or state started at one point in
> the past and ended at another point in the past", <Gareth
> Jones Website>
> >
> > "The past perfect is often used to emphasis (sic) that one
> action, event or condition ended before another past action,
> event, or condition ended." <University of Ottawa>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense represents an action as completed at a
> past time. It may denote that an action occurred at an
> indefinite or definite time in the past." <Descriptive
> English Grammar, Susan Emolyn Harman>
> >
> > I better quit before I bore you right out of your chair, T.J.
> The point is that if you try to look it up, you will find a
> hodgepodge of meaningless and inconsistent definitions and
> explanations. You will think, whateverthehell are these people
> talking about? Someone should sit down and try to figure out
> what it is and if it isn't anything, let's stop teaching it, or
> trying to teach it, since no one seems to know what it is.
> >
> > Of all the many people of whom I asked "what is it?", only two
> have been willing to answer. One said that "the past perfect is
> had + the past participle", which is rather like saying a ladder
> is something with a rung or a train is something with wheels (as
> are lawnmowers and rickshaws). The other more recent try, which
> you may have seen, we should leave lying with the sleeping dog,
> to not foment an unnecessary exchange of gunfire.
> >
> > ALL the others, and that includes the most eloquent and
> talkative on this listserv, cannot do it. I feel certain they
> would if they could but they can't. They don't know it
> themselves and when they try to look it up, they get what you
> see a sample of above. The "definitions" are all over the map
> and there are hundreds more like them.
> >
> > Let me ask you, T-J, what is the past perfect?
> >
> > If you either (a) rant and snort and call me names, or (b) not
> reply, you will, as any reasonable person would agree, prove my point.
> >
> > Good hunting. Let me know what you think. I'm very much
> interested. I've been at this for a long time but a reasonable,
> coherent conclusion everyone -- including but not limited to
> novelists, journalists, and grammarians -- can accept still
> seems far away. Maybe you can help us.
> >
> > .brad.27dec10.
> >
> >
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