Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-318306803-1292445770=:41651-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 17:20:44 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_qw62GvbGApA2XvV/Muc5MA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qw62GvbGApA2XvV/Muc5MA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on. The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked." And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. Thank you very much! Sincerely, John John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_qw62GvbGApA2XvV/Muc5MA) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline
Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on.
The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
"That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked."
And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
Thank you very much!
Sincerely,
John
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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From: Kathleen Ward <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Okay, I'll try this set.
To take the last first, the "Should you" is a conditional clause, with
inversion of the modal auxiliary and the subject pronoun. Most modern
conditional clauses begin with "if" and exhibit no inversion, but this
inversion is also possible. Expressed subjects are required in conditional
clauses, though not, as your students know, in imperative clauses.
In the "That the healthcare system needs fixing" sentence, the noun clause
is functioning as the subject of the sentence, and "that" is always required
when this sort of clause is in subject position. "That" is not required
when the noun clause is functioning as the complement of the verb, for
example: "I contend the health care system needs fixing."
In the "the cat that slept all day" example, "that slept all day" is a
restrictive relative clause modifying "cat"; "the cat that slept all day"
is a noun phrase functioning as the object of a preposition, "unlike."
Whether "that"is a relative pronoun is the subject of some contention, but
it certainly is functioning in the position that a relative pronoun would
be. Note that you can substitute "which" in this clause (the cat which
slept all day), although many people dislike it.
The last one (Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than
a competition) is a little different, and, as far as I can tell, is usually
-- and badly -- lumped in with restrictive relative clauses while being
rather different from them. Sometimes these clauses are called content
clauses, or noun complement clauses, or even more clumsily, appositive
clauses, and they have some interesting properties.
First, they occur only after a certain class of nouns: theory, fact,
contention, idea, etc.
Second, rather than "modifying" those nouns, they completely spell out the
meaning of the noun. In your example, "evolution is a process rather than a
competition" IS the theory; it's not just a little more information ABOUT
the theory.
Third, you can never substitute "which" for the "that" in these clauses.
"Lynn Margulis' theory which evolution is a process rather than a
competition" is just not possible for a native speaker of English.
Fourth, these clauses are "complete": That is, if you take off the "that,"
you have a complete sentence. "Evolution is a process rather than a
competition" is a complete sentence on its own. The "that" has no function
within the clause. Contrast this with what happens when you remove the
"that" from the restrictive relative clause you used: "slept all day" is
not, by itself, a sentence.
Kathleen Ward
On Fri, Dec 17, 2010 at 9:20 AM, John Chorazy
<[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses
> and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on.
>
> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the
> healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>
> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the
> dog ran around and barked."
>
> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition
> differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
>
> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
>
> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you
> have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big
> brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject
> and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
>
> Thank you very much!
>
> Sincerely,
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> John Chorazy
> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic
> Pequannock Township High School
>
> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
> the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Okay, I'll try this set.
To take the last first, the "Should you" is a conditional clause, with inversion of the modal auxiliary and the subject pronoun. Most modern conditional clauses begin with "if" and exhibit no inversion, but this inversion is also possible. Expressed subjects are required in conditional clauses, though not, as your students know, in imperative clauses.
In the "That the healthcare system needs fixing" sentence, the noun clause is functioning as the subject of the sentence, and "that" is always required when this sort of clause is in subject position. "That" is not required when the noun clause is functioning as the complement of the verb, for example: "I contend the health care system needs fixing."
In the "the cat that slept all day" example, "that slept all day" is a restrictive relative clause modifying "cat"; "the cat that slept all day" is a noun phrase functioning as the object of a preposition, "unlike." Whether "that"is a relative pronoun is the subject of some contention, but it certainly is functioning in the position that a relative pronoun would be. Note that you can substitute "which" in this clause (the cat which slept all day), although many people dislike it.
The last one (Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition) is a little different, and, as far as I can tell, is usually -- and badly -- lumped in with restrictive relative clauses while being rather different from them. Sometimes these clauses are called content clauses, or noun complement clauses, or even more clumsily, appositive clauses, and they have some interesting properties.
First, they occur only after a certain class of nouns: theory, fact, contention, idea, etc.
Second, rather than "modifying" those nouns, they completely spell out the meaning of the noun. In your example, "evolution is a process rather than a competition" IS the theory; it's not just a little more information ABOUT the theory.
Third, you can never substitute "which" for the "that" in these clauses. "Lynn Margulis' theory which evolution is a process rather than a competition" is just not possible for a native speaker of English.
Fourth, these clauses are "complete": That is, if you take off the "that," you have a complete sentence. "Evolution is a process rather than a competition" is a complete sentence on its own. The "that" has no function within the clause. Contrast this with what happens when you remove the "that" from the restrictive relative clause you used: "slept all day" is not, by itself, a sentence.
Kathleen Ward
Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on.
The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
"That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked."
And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
Thank you very much!
Sincerely,
John
John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic
Pequannock Township High School
Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0022152d60cd5989da04979f1fd1-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 10:13:54 -0800 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 13:45:39 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE881ACEMAILBACKEND0_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE881ACEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic relative clauses. There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of its non-demonstrative uses. * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike pronouns. There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Noun clauses Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on. The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked." And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. Thank you very much! Sincerely, John John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE881ACEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
John,
We’ve had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of “that” in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of it, but here’s the position I’ve taken, which is also the position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
There are two function words “that” in English. One is the distal demonstrative “that” with its plural “these,” and the other is the subordinator “that” as found in the clauses you have provided. When “that” is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in “The pitches that Casey missed…” the gap is in direct object position where “pitches” would be if the relative clause were a main clause instead. If it’s the subject that is zero, most speakers require “that” to avoid processing problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in “The ball that got past Casey was a strike” the dropping of “that” would leave “The ball got past Casey was a strike” which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The fact that “that” is required there for clarity is not evidence that it’s a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic relative clauses.
There are several reasons for calling “that” a subordinator in all of its non-demonstrative uses.
· It’s always unstressed, as is the subordinator “that.” Pronominal and determiner “that” are rarely unstressed.
· If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect it to have a plural “those” in “*The pitches those Casey missed….”
· There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- relatives, so we can’t say “*The ball that’s casing came off….”
· It is deletable, like the subordinator “that” and unlike pronouns.
There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 titled “Relative that – a centennial dispute. It’s a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Noun clauses
Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on.
The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
"That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked."
And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
Thank you very much!
Sincerely,
John
John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic
Pequannock Township High School
Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE881ACEMAILBACKEND0_-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 14:03:41 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, Herb-- Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A nice break from grading. Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim you make. You say · It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike pronouns. But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. Am I missing something in what you said? Happy end-of-semester-- Seth Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University Faculty Advisor Bradley University Hillel ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Stahlke, Herbert F.W. Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses John, We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic relative clauses. There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of its non-demonstrative uses. · It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. · If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." · There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." · It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike pronouns. There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Noun clauses Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on. The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked." And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. Thank you very much! Sincerely, John John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 15:52:51 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Seth, That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH, which is worth reading: Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my sister. Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is my sister. Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister. Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next to] is my sister. Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father died] told me she was sad. Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is smarter than] is my sister. Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible. Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that." These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech. The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule. That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives. This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English: not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence, sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case. After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c. when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Hey, Herb-- Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A nice break from grading. Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim you make. You say * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike pronouns. But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. Am I missing something in what you said? Happy end-of-semester-- Seth Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University Faculty Advisor Bradley University Hillel ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Stahlke, Herbert F.W. Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses John, We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic relative clauses. There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of its non-demonstrative uses. * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike pronouns. There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Noun clauses Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts on. The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, the dog ran around and barked." And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. Thank you very much! Sincerely, John John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 21:18:41 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_tOJ3q0i76jKXRbvZUQXzRA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_tOJ3q0i76jKXRbvZUQXzRA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline I appreciate the wealth of information and must consider how to approach these nuances with high school students who really haven't had rigorous, lucid discussions about grammatical functions. Believe it or not, this will assist our approach to answering SAT problems, some of which I'll be posting soon for your collective perusal. College Board creates model sentences that pose typical errors – subject/verb agreement, misplaced modifiers, etc. – but on occasion the models are actually complex structures that many students can't find their way around to the correct answer. My approach to test prep isn't about the tricks of test taking, but rather the real understanding of why/how and the like when it comes to identifying sentence errors and sentence improvement questions. Like the SAT or not, it does give us good opportunities to talk about language. Thanks again... John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." Date: Friday, December 17, 2010 1:50 pm Subject: Re: Noun clauses To: [log in to unmask] > John, > > We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status > of "that" in clauses like these. There has not been complete > agreement on all of it, but here's the position I've taken, > which is also the position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern > English Grammar on Historical Principles and Huddleston & Pullum > in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. > > There are two function words "that" in English. One is the > distal demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the > other is the subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you > have provided. When "that" is used to introduce a relative > clause, it is simply a subordinator, not a relative pronoun. > The relative pronouns are the wh- words. This analysis implies > that there is a gap in the relative clause corresponding to the > head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." the gap is > in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the > relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject > that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing > problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a > sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate > clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the > dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey was a > strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. > The fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not > evidence that it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction > on bare or asyndetic relative clauses. > > There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in > all of its non-demonstrative uses. > > > * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." > Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. > > * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we > would expect it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those > Casey missed...." > > * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- > relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and > unlike pronouns. > > > There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in > Huddleston & Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of > this analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics > 21 (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. > It's a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique. > > Herb > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Noun clauses > > > Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) > about clauses and have collected some questions that the list > might have some thoughts on. > > The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): > "That the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." > > "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept > all day, the dog ran around and barked." > > And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": > "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a > competition differs dramatically from the theories of most > biologists." > Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative > pronoun? > Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? > "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just > remember that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students > see the implied "you" as the subject and its verb remember, but > not what's going on up front. > > Thank you very much! > > Sincerely, > > John > > > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic > Pequannock Township High School > > Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, > please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join > or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_tOJ3q0i76jKXRbvZUQXzRA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_tOJ3q0i76jKXRbvZUQXzRA)-- ========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 10:37:53 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Herb, You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause? My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses. So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses. I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in" seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect. Craig Seth, > > That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of > grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion > processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility > Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH, > which is worth reading: > > Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my > sister. > Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is > my sister. > Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl > [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister. > Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next > to] is my sister. > Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father > died] told me she was sad. > Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is > smarter than] is my sister. > > Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the > preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible. > Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that." > These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are also > ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial speech and in > non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative clause is filled by a > resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and comparatives especially, > although they'll also occur in more complex constructions. An example > would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet that we read a lot of her work > last year." We certainly would not allow that in formal writing, but it's > not at all unusual in speech. > > The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in English, > and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in this version > are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is that asyndetic > relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the hierarchy, > Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the gap is in subject > position is a separate phenomenon that is related to language processing > needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses and in relatives is pretty > much the same rule. That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together > into one subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from > wh-relatives. > > This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history of > the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic > relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This > is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English: not > a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence, sometimes > conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives until the Late > Old English period when they developed probably from indefinite relatives > under the influence of Latin, which the scribes of the time knew well. In > Latin, relative clauses had to be formed with relative pronouns fully > inflected for gender, number, and case. After the Norman Conquest, when > the tradition of Alfred the Great's English scriptoria was suppressed, > wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c. > when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from > Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of educated > standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use that- and zero- > relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still so much a function > of formal education and of Standard English that when non-standard > speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate clauses they > frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like "We were going > to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such wh-coordination is not > at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > Hey, Herb-- > > Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a subordinator > and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A nice break from > grading. > > Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim you > make. You say > > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the pronoun > fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in > > The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > > Am I missing something in what you said? > > Happy end-of-semester-- > Seth > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > Faculty Advisor > Bradley University Hillel > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Stahlke, > Herbert F.W. > Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > > > John, > > > > We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" > in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of it, > but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of Otto > Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical Principles and > Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent Cambridge Grammar of the > English Language. > > > > There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal > demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the > subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When > "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a > subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the wh- > words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative clause > corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." > the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the > relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that is > zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems that arise > when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any overt marking > that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey > was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey > was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The > fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that it's a > relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic relative > clauses. > > > > There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of its > non-demonstrative uses. > > > > * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." > Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. > > * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect > it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." > > * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- > relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > > There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & > Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by Johan > van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 titled > "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, thoughtful, > and incisive critique. > > > > Herb > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Noun clauses > > > > Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about clauses > and have collected some questions that the list might have some thoughts > on. > > The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That the > healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." > > "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all day, > the dog ran around and barked." > > And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn > Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition > differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." > > Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? > > Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should you > have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has a big > brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as the subject > and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. > > Thank you very much! > > Sincerely, > > John > > > > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School > > Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit > the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 22:13:11 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Craig, A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats," without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions. Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity. On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Herb, You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause? My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses. So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses. I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in" seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect. Craig Seth, > > That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of > grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion > processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility > Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH, > which is worth reading: > > Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my > sister. > Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is > my sister. > Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl > [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister. > Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next > to] is my sister. > Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father > died] told me she was sad. > Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is > smarter than] is my sister. > > Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the > preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible. > Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that." > These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are > also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial > speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative > clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and > comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more complex > constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet > that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly would not > allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech. > > The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in > English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in > this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is > that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the > hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the > gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related to > language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses > and in relatives is pretty much the same rule. That-relatives and > zero-relatives then fall together into one subclass of relative > clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives. > > This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history > of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic > relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This > is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English: > not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence, > sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives > until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from > indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes > of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed > with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case. > After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's > English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c. > when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from > Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of > educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use > that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still > so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that > when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate > clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like > "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such > wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > Hey, Herb-- > > Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a > subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A > nice break from grading. > > Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim > you make. You say > > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the > pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in > > The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > > Am I missing something in what you said? > > Happy end-of-semester-- > Seth > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > Faculty Advisor > Bradley University Hillel > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of > Stahlke, Herbert F.W. > Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > > > John, > > > > We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" > in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of > it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of > Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical > Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent > Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. > > > > There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal > demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the > subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When > "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a > subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the > wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative > clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." > the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the > relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that > is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems > that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any > overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that > got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey > was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The > fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that > it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic > relative clauses. > > > > There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of > its non-demonstrative uses. > > > > * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." > Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. > > * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect > it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." > > * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- > relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > > There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & > Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by > Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 > titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, > thoughtful, and incisive critique. > > > > Herb > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Noun clauses > > > > Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about > clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have > some thoughts on. > > The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That > the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." > > "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all > day, the dog ran around and barked." > > And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn > Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition > differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." > > Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? > > Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should > you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has > a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as > the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. > > Thank you very much! > > Sincerely, > > John > > > > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High > School > > Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 21:55:08 -0600 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hey, Herb-- You say, "In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners." Why not by analogy with "whose," which appears as a possessive determiner in the same slot? Or am I missing something? Seth Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University Faculty Advisor Bradley University Hillel ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Sat 12/18/2010 9:13 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Craig, A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats," without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions. Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity. On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Herb, You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause? My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses. So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses. I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in" seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect. Craig Seth, > > That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of > grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion > processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility > Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH, > which is worth reading: > > Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my > sister. > Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is > my sister. > Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl > [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister. > Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next > to] is my sister. > Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father > died] told me she was sad. > Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is > smarter than] is my sister. > > Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the > preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible. > Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that." > These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are > also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial > speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative > clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and > comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more complex > constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet > that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly would not > allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech. > > The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in > English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in > this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is > that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the > hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the > gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related to > language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses > and in relatives is pretty much the same rule. That-relatives and > zero-relatives then fall together into one subclass of relative > clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives. > > This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history > of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic > relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This > is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English: > not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence, > sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives > until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from > indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes > of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed > with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case. > After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's > English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c. > when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from > Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of > educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use > that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still > so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that > when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate > clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like > "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such > wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > Hey, Herb-- > > Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a > subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A > nice break from grading. > > Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim > you make. You say > > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the > pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in > > The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > > Am I missing something in what you said? > > Happy end-of-semester-- > Seth > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > Faculty Advisor > Bradley University Hillel > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of > Stahlke, Herbert F.W. > Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > > > John, > > > > We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" > in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of > it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of > Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical > Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent > Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. > > > > There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal > demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the > subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When > "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a > subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the > wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative > clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." > the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the > relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that > is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems > that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any > overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that > got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey > was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The > fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that > it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic > relative clauses. > > > > There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of > its non-demonstrative uses. > > > > * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." > Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. > > * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect > it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." > > * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- > relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > > There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & > Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by > Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 > titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, > thoughtful, and incisive critique. > > > > Herb > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Noun clauses > > > > Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about > clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have > some thoughts on. > > The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That > the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." > > "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all > day, the dog ran around and barked." > > And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn > Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition > differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." > > Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? > > Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should > you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has > a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as > the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. > > Thank you very much! > > Sincerely, > > John > > > > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High > School > > Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 23:48:41 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Seth, Good point. I should have included "whose" in my list of genitive pronouns. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Hey, Herb-- You say, "In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners." Why not by analogy with "whose," which appears as a possessive determiner in the same slot? Or am I missing something? Seth Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University Faculty Advisor Bradley University Hillel ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of STAHLKE, HERBERT F Sent: Sat 12/18/2010 9:13 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Craig, A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats," without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions. Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity. On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that. Herb -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Noun clauses Herb, You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause? My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses. So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses. I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in" seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect. Craig Seth, > > That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of > grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion > processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility > Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH, > which is worth reading: > > Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my > sister. > Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is > my sister. > Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl > [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister. > Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next > to] is my sister. > Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father > died] told me she was sad. > Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is > smarter than] is my sister. > > Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the > preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible. > Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that." > These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are > also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial > speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative > clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and > comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more complex > constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet > that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly would not > allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech. > > The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in > English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in > this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is > that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the > hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the > gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related to > language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses > and in relatives is pretty much the same rule. That-relatives and > zero-relatives then fall together into one subclass of relative > clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives. > > This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history > of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic > relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This > is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English: > not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence, > sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives > until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from > indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes > of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed > with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case. > After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's > English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c. > when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from > Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of > educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use > that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still > so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that > when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate > clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like > "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such > wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > Hey, Herb-- > > Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a > subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A > nice break from grading. > > Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim > you make. You say > > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the > pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in > > The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine. > > Am I missing something in what you said? > > Happy end-of-semester-- > Seth > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > Faculty Advisor > Bradley University Hillel > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of > Stahlke, Herbert F.W. > Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Noun clauses > > > > John, > > > > We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that" > in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of > it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of > Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical > Principles and Huddleston & Pullum in their rather more recent > Cambridge Grammar of the English Language. > > > > There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal > demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the > subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When > "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a > subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the > wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative > clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..." > the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the > relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that > is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems > that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any > overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that > got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey > was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The > fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that > it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic > relative clauses. > > > > There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of > its non-demonstrative uses. > > > > * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that." > Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed. > > * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect > it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...." > > * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh- > relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...." > > * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike > pronouns. > > > > There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston & > Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by > Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179 > titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating, > thoughtful, and incisive critique. > > > > Herb > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy > Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Noun clauses > > > > Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about > clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have > some thoughts on. > > The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That > the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious." > > "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all > day, the dog ran around and barked." > > And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn > Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition > differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists." > > Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun? > > Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should > you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has > a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as > the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front. > > Thank you very much! > > Sincerely, > > John > > > > > > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High > School > > Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Sun, 19 Dec 2010 05:00:42 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Noun clauses In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_Rm9xCNkty/qm0z6geKL2QQ)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Rm9xCNkty/qm0z6geKL2QQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Craig - I've seen this usage in student writing quite a lot recently and I can't figure it out. Your example is really close to those I've read (I'll see if I can post a few from papers). And that I'm in New Jersey and you mentioned New York is striking. However, I haven't heard anyone speak this way, I've just found it in written form. John > I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in" seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect. > Craig John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High School Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_Rm9xCNkty/qm0z6geKL2QQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:21:40 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Herb,
I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways
that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important
work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always
outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place
holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw the
lines for the category.
Craig
On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> Craig,
>
> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats," without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions. Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity.
>
> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause?
> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses.
> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in"
> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect.
>
> Craig
> Seth,
>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy of
>> grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and deletion
>> processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie Accessibility
>> Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia article on the KCAH,
>> which is worth reading:
>>
>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my
>> sister.
>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is
>> my sister.
>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl
>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next
>> to] is my sister.
>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father
>> died] told me she was sad.
>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is
>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>
>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive and
>> comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more complex
>> constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet the poet
>> that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly would not
>> allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech.
>>
>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in
>> this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is
>> that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the
>> hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the
>> gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related to
>> language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun clauses
>> and in relatives is pretty much the same rule. That-relatives and
>> zero-relatives then fall together into one subclass of relative
>> clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives.
>>
>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic
>> relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This
>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure from
>> Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still
>> so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that
>> when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate
>> clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences like
>> "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained." Such
>> wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Hey, Herb--
>>
>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>> nice break from grading.
>>
>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a claim
>> you make. You say
>>
>>
>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>> pronouns.
>>
>>
>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>
>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>
>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>
>> Happy end-of-semester--
>> Seth
>>
>> Dr. Seth Katz
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of English
>> Bradley University
>>
>> Faculty Advisor
>> Bradley University Hillel
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>>
>>
>> John,
>>
>>
>>
>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that"
>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all of
>> it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position of
>> Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical
>> Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more recent
>> Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative
>> clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..."
>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that
>> is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems
>> that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any
>> overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball that
>> got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey
>> was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The
>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic
>> relative clauses.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of
>> its non-demonstrative uses.
>>
>>
>>
>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>
>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect
>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>
>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>
>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>> pronouns.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston&
>> Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by
>> Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179
>> titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating,
>> thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>> some thoughts on.
>>
>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>
>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>
>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a competition
>> differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
>>
>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
>>
>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has
>> a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as
>> the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
>>
>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Chorazy
>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>> School
>>
>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>> visit the list's web interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
>> leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 10:25:50 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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John,
I don't think I have heard it in spoken form, which makes me wonder
where it's coming from and why it has appeared so suddenly. Perhaps it's
an attempt at formality, students aiming at "in which" but overextending
its use? I'm perplexed. I have given back papers, so I don't have a
ready example.
Craig
On 12/19/2010 12:00 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
> Craig - I've seen this usage in student writing quite a lot recently
> and I can't figure it out. Your example is really close to those I've
> read (I'll see if I can post a few from papers). And that I'm in New
> Jersey and you mentioned New York is striking. However, I haven't
> heard anyone speak this way, I've just found it in written form.
> John
> > I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think
> coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought
> from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting
> the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in"
> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
> dialect.
>
> > Craig
>
>
> John Chorazy
> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic
> Pequannock Township High School
>
> Nulla dies sine linea.
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:49:49 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Barron's Master the Basics
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As is often the case, this will work better if you are set for html, color and
graphics, by whatever name.
Barron's Master the Basics - English
by Jean Yates, Northern Virginia Community
College.
#9.3 Present Perfect Tense
This section starts with an inadequate definition but gives pretty good examples
until ...
(f) to indicate that an action happened a very short time ago, use just or
finally.
Pattern: have + just + past participle
have + finally + past participle
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:05:19 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Craig and John,
I've heard it spoken as well, sometimes from undergrads but more often from people in the community who are trying to speak formally. I think it fits in with other non-standard uses of wh-relatives reflecting their marginal status outside of Standard English.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
John,
I don't think I have heard it in spoken form, which makes me wonder where it's coming from and why it has appeared so suddenly. Perhaps it's an attempt at formality, students aiming at "in which" but overextending its use? I'm perplexed. I have given back papers, so I don't have a ready example.
Craig
On 12/19/2010 12:00 AM, John Chorazy wrote:
> Craig - I've seen this usage in student writing quite a lot recently
> and I can't figure it out. Your example is really close to those I've
> read (I'll see if I can post a few from papers). And that I'm in New
> Jersey and you mentioned New York is striking. However, I haven't
> heard anyone speak this way, I've just found it in written form.
> John
> > I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I
> > think
> coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought
> from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting
> the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in"
> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
> dialect.
>
> > Craig
>
>
> John Chorazy
> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
> School
>
> Nulla dies sine linea.
>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 13:10:33 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Craig,
My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example, that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support. Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Herb,
I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw the lines for the category.
Craig
On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
> Craig,
>
> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats," without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions. Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity.
>
> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that relative clause?
> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works. The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that" along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content clauses.
> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual number, the "in"
> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken dialect.
>
> Craig
> Seth,
>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>
>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late] is my
>> sister.
>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl [Kate saw] is
>> my sister.
>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter]. The girl
>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I sat next
>> to] is my sister.
>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose father
>> died] told me she was sad.
>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate is
>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>
>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in speech.
>>
>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in
>> this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is
>> that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the
>> hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the
>> gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related
>> to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun
>> clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives.
>>
>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and asyndetic
>> relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that." This
>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still
>> so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that
>> when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate
>> clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences
>> like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained."
>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard dialects.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Hey, Herb--
>>
>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>> nice break from grading.
>>
>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>> claim you make. You say
>>
>>
>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>> pronouns.
>>
>>
>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>
>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>
>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>
>> Happy end-of-semester--
>> Seth
>>
>> Dr. Seth Katz
>> Assistant Professor
>> Department of English
>> Bradley University
>>
>> Faculty Advisor
>> Bradley University Hillel
>>
>> ________________________________
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>>
>>
>> John,
>>
>>
>>
>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of "that"
>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position
>> of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical
>> Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more recent
>> Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative
>> clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey missed..."
>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that
>> is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems
>> that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any
>> overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball
>> that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave "The ball got past Casey
>> was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid. The
>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic
>> relative clauses.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of
>> its non-demonstrative uses.
>>
>>
>>
>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>
>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would expect
>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>
>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>
>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>> pronouns.
>>
>>
>>
>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston&
>> Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by
>> Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179
>> titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating,
>> thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>
>>
>>
>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>> some thoughts on.
>>
>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>
>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>
>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
>>
>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
>>
>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has
>> a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as
>> the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
>>
>> Thank you very much!
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> John Chorazy
>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>> School
>>
>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>> visit the list's web interface at:
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:54:22 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Herb,
It has always been my understanding that finite subordinate clauses
require an explicit subject. That may be one reason why the relative
can't be dropped if it's in subject role.
Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me."
"Anyone [whom] you touch touches me."
Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first.
Example: "Anything that touches you touches me."
"Anything [that]you touch touches me."
Deletion is possible in the second, but not the first.
There is nothing parallel to that with content clauses since the
"that" remains fully outside the clause and is never used to stand in
(or place hold)for a missing subject. Relative clauses and content
clauses have formal (not just functional) differences.
Craig
> Craig,
>
> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function is
> that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing in a
> particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a solution
> different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows from certain
> assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example, that "that" is a
> relative pronoun, are difficult to support. Historical change gives us
> some help but must be interpreted very cautiously, which is why I'm not
> willing to say that pronominal status has not developed beyond the
> non-standard genitive use.
>
> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative
> "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument that
> can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways that
> are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important work
> is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always outside
> the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place holding
> function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw the lines
> for the category.
>
> Craig
>
> On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> Craig,
>>
>> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some
>> pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This
>> appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that and
>> conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the
>> subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them with
>> each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue
>> otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book
>> that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think
>> "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns
>> yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as
>> determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats,"
>> without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft
>> Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical
>> change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that genitive
>> "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing about
>> what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions.
>> Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and produces
>> irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity.
>>
>> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative
>> "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of
>> "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We
>> can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar, and
>> I know you're not suggesting that.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Herb,
>> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to just
>> repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required in
>> the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that touches
>> you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for sentence
>> processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that
>> relative clause?
>> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing
>> classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works.
>> The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of
>> a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T
>> OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully
>> outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For
>> that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was
>> granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is
>> more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that"
>> along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what
>> she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the
>> feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and
>> "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for
>> non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content
>> clauses.
>> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative
>> clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
>> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I
>> think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I
>> bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be
>> distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual
>> number, the "in"
>> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
>> dialect.
>>
>> Craig
>> Seth,
>>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>>
>>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late]
>>> is my
>>> sister.
>>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl
>>> [Kate saw] is
>>> my sister.
>>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter].
>>> The girl
>>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I
>>> sat next
>>> to] is my sister.
>>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose
>>> father
>>> died] told me she was sad.
>>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate
>>> is
>>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>>
>>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual in
>>> speech.
>>>
>>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which in
>>> this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we see is
>>> that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level of the
>>> hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped if the
>>> gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is related
>>> to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in noun
>>> clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives.
>>>
>>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and
>>> asyndetic
>>> relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than "that."
>>> This
>>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and
>>> didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are still
>>> so much a function of formal education and of Standard English that
>>> when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to initiate
>>> clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in sentences
>>> like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained."
>>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard
>>> dialects.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>> Hey, Herb--
>>>
>>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>>> nice break from grading.
>>>
>>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>>> claim you make. You say
>>>
>>>
>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>> pronouns.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>>
>>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>
>>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>>
>>> Happy end-of-semester--
>>> Seth
>>>
>>> Dr. Seth Katz
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of English
>>> Bradley University
>>>
>>> Faculty Advisor
>>> Bradley University Hillel
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of
>>> "that"
>>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the position
>>> of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on Historical
>>> Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more recent
>>> Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the relative
>>> clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches that Casey
>>> missed..."
>>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject that
>>> is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing problems
>>> that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence without any
>>> overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in "The ball
>>> that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that" would leave
>>> "The ball got past Casey
>>> was a strike" which some speakers will use but writers will avoid.
>>> The
>>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or asyndetic
>>> relative clauses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all of
>>> its non-demonstrative uses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>>
>>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would
>>> expect
>>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>>
>>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>>
>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>> pronouns.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in Huddleston&
>>> Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this analysis by
>>> Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21 (1985), 149-179
>>> titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's a fascinating,
>>> thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>>> some thoughts on.
>>>
>>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>>
>>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>>
>>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
>>>
>>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
>>>
>>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it has
>>> a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you" as
>>> the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much!
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Chorazy
>>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>>> School
>>>
>>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>>> visit the list's web interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
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>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
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>>>
>>>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:41:40 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Craig,
The pattern you illustrate below is certainly true of Standard English. However, in colloquial speech and in non-ztandard varieties of English "that" is dropped regularly before 0 subjects in relatives. I hear people say things like "Anyone/thing touches you touches me" fairly regularly. This syntactic change is taking place because that's outside the relative clause, just as it's outside the content clause. If it were a pronoun and perceived as a pronoun cognitively, then I would also expect to hear things like "Thatever gambles loses" along with "Whoever gambles loses." But that's one I don't hear. The fact that "that" doesn't delete before a 0 subject relative clause in Formal Standard English reflects the conservatism of that dialect.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:54 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Herb,
It has always been my understanding that finite subordinate clauses require an explicit subject. That may be one reason why the relative can't be dropped if it's in subject role.
Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me."
"Anyone [whom] you touch touches me."
Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first.
Example: "Anything that touches you touches me."
"Anything [that]you touch touches me."
Deletion is possible in the second, but not the first.
There is nothing parallel to that with content clauses since the "that" remains fully outside the clause and is never used to stand in (or place hold)for a missing subject. Relative clauses and content clauses have formal (not just functional) differences.
Craig
> Craig,
>
> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function
> is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing
> in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a
> solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows
> from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example,
> that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support.
> Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very
> cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status
> has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
>
> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative
> "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument
> that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways
> that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important
> work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always
> outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place
> holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw
> the lines for the category.
>
> Craig
>
> On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>> Craig,
>>
>> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some
>> pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This
>> appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that
>> and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the
>> subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them
>> with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology argue
>> otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book
>> that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think
>> "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns
>> yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as
>> determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats,"
>> without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft
>> Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical
>> change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that
>> genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing
>> about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative constructions.
>> Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and
>> produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces regularity.
>>
>> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative
>> "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of
>> "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We
>> can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar,
>> and I know you're not suggesting that.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Herb,
>> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to
>> just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required
>> in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that
>> touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for
>> sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that
>> relative clause?
>> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing
>> classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works.
>> The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of
>> a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR
>> IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside
>> the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason,
>> we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes
>> a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content
>> clause than a relative. We can also use "that"
>> along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what
>> she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the
>> feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and
>> "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for
>> non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content
>> clauses.
>> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative
>> clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
>> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I
>> think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I
>> bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be
>> distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual
>> number, the "in"
>> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
>> dialect.
>>
>> Craig
>> Seth,
>>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>>
>>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late]
>>> is my
>>> sister.
>>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl
>>> [Kate saw] is
>>> my sister.
>>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter].
>>> The girl
>>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I
>>> sat next
>>> to] is my sister.
>>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose
>>> father
>>> died] told me she was sad.
>>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who Kate
>>> is
>>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>>
>>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual
>>> in speech.
>>>
>>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which
>>> in this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we
>>> see is that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level
>>> of the hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped
>>> if the gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is
>>> related to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in
>>> noun clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from wh-relatives.
>>>
>>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and
>>> asyndetic relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than
>>> "that."
>>> This
>>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and
>>> didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are
>>> still so much a function of formal education and of Standard English
>>> that when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to
>>> initiate clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in
>>> sentences like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it rained."
>>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard
>>> dialects.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>> Hey, Herb--
>>>
>>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>>> nice break from grading.
>>>
>>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>>> claim you make. You say
>>>
>>>
>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>> pronouns.
>>>
>>>
>>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>>
>>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>
>>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>>
>>> Happy end-of-semester--
>>> Seth
>>>
>>> Dr. Seth Katz
>>> Assistant Professor
>>> Department of English
>>> Bradley University
>>>
>>> Faculty Advisor
>>> Bradley University Hillel
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of
>>> "that"
>>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the
>>> position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on
>>> Historical Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more
>>> recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the
>>> relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches
>>> that Casey missed..."
>>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject
>>> that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing
>>> problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence
>>> without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in
>>> "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that"
>>> would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some
>>> speakers will use but writers will avoid.
>>> The
>>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or
>>> asyndetic relative clauses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all
>>> of its non-demonstrative uses.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>>
>>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would
>>> expect
>>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>>
>>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>>
>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>> pronouns.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in
>>> Huddleston& Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this
>>> analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21
>>> (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's
>>> a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>>> some thoughts on.
>>>
>>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>>
>>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>>
>>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most biologists."
>>>
>>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative pronoun?
>>>
>>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it
>>> has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you"
>>> as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up front.
>>>
>>> Thank you very much!
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> John
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> John Chorazy
>>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>>> School
>>>
>>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>>> visit the list's web interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
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>>>
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>>>
>>>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:25:42 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Herb,
Here's some additional data about "that" in relative clauses to supplement
what you presented in an earlier post. In the examples, Ø represents no
spoken word (e.g., "the book Ø we read" = the book we read), and *
represents an ungrammatical term (e.g., "the author *to that we wrote").
*Restrictive relative clause*
Subject:
the author who/that/*Ø wrote the book...
the book which/that/*Ø inspired us...
Direct object:
the author whom/that/Ø we admired...
the book which/that/Ø the author wrote...
Object of preposition:
the author whom/that/Ø we wrote to...
the author to whom/*to that/*to Ø we wrote...
the book from which/*from that/*from Ø we read...
Possessive:
the author whose/?that's/*Ø book we admired...
the book whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø cover we admired...
*Nonrestrictive relative clause*
Tolstoy, who/*that/*Ø wrote *War and Peace*, ...
*War and Peace*, which/*that/*Ø Tolstoy wrote, ...
Tolstoy, whom/*that/*Ø we read about, ...
Tolstoy, about whom/*about that/*about Ø we read, ...
*War and Peace*, whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø plot we summarized, ...
Some observations:
1. In restrictive clauses, "that" occurs in the same positions as "who,"
"whom," and "which" for subject, direct object, and object of a clause-final
preposition.
2. "That" occurs in the same positions as Ø except for subject of a
restrictive clause.
3. Unlike "who" or "which," "that" cannot directly follow a preposition.
4. Unlike "who" but like "which," "that" does not have a possessive form
("whose" but not "which's" or "that's"). This fact might not be significant,
since "whose" seems to be the universal possessive relative pronoun,
representing both animate and inanimate noun phrases (unlike "who/m," which
represents only animate phrases).
5. Unlike "who," "whom," and "which," "that" does not occur in
nonrestrictive clauses.
The data is decidedly mixed, and you are wise to state, "I'm not willing to
say that pronominal status [of "that"] has not developed beyond the
non-standard genitive use [that's]." You and others presented several
arguments, historical and otherwise, for the anti-pronoun position. The
chief argument for the pro-pronoun position is intuitive. For at least some
people, "the author who wrote the book" and "the author that wrote the book"
seem indistinguishable, with the "who" and "that" seeming* *to represent
"the author" in the relative clause. On the other hand, if "that" is a
relative pronoun, why can't we say "the author to that we wrote"? For me the
jury is still out, and I hope to read further contributions.
Dick
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:10 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> Craig,
>
> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function is
> that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing in a
> particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a solution
> different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows from certain
> assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example, that "that" is a
> relative pronoun, are difficult to support. Historical change gives us some
> help but must be interpreted very cautiously, which is why I'm not willing
> to say that pronominal status has not developed beyond the non-standard
> genitive use.
>
> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative "that"
> is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument that can't be
> handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>
> Herb
>
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Herb,
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:51:28 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Herb,
By the same logic, "Anyone touches you touches me" would be proof that
"who" is not a pronoun. I think deleting "who" is equally likely (at
least to my ear test), though, as you say, nonstandard.
We also have "that" as pronoun in content clauses in ways that could
seem parallel to the relatives.
"I believe that is true." That, in this sentence, is clearly pronoun
subject. We can add a subordinator. "I believe that that is true." It
can also be contracted, something that doesn't happen with a
subordinator. "I believe that's true."
Relative version: "I believe anything that is true." "I believe
anything that's true." "A belief that's true..."
I don't mean by this to diminish the argument that "that" is more
limited than you would expect from a pronoun. Again, I think it may be
slipping between categories, acting a little differently in relatives
than it does as subordinator in content clauses. Again, I think
noticing how it acts is more useful than wedging it into a category,
especially if it will be unique in whatever category you place it in.
It's either a unique pronoun or a unique subordinator.
Craig>
Craig,
>
> The pattern you illustrate below is certainly true of Standard English.
> However, in colloquial speech and in non-ztandard varieties of English
> "that" is dropped regularly before 0 subjects in relatives. I hear people
> say things like "Anyone/thing touches you touches me" fairly regularly.
> This syntactic change is taking place because that's outside the relative
> clause, just as it's outside the content clause. If it were a pronoun and
> perceived as a pronoun cognitively, then I would also expect to hear
> things like "Thatever gambles loses" along with "Whoever gambles loses."
> But that's one I don't hear. The fact that "that" doesn't delete before
> a 0 subject relative clause in Formal Standard English reflects the
> conservatism of that dialect.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:54 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> It has always been my understanding that finite subordinate clauses
> require an explicit subject. That may be one reason why the relative
> can't be dropped if it's in subject role.
> Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me."
> "Anyone [whom] you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first.
>
> Example: "Anything that touches you touches me."
> "Anything [that]you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second, but not the first.
>
> There is nothing parallel to that with content clauses since the
> "that" remains fully outside the clause and is never used to stand in
> (or place hold)for a missing subject. Relative clauses and content
> clauses have formal (not just functional) differences.
>
> Craig
>
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function
>> is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing
>> in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a
>> solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows
>> from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example,
>> that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support.
>> Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very
>> cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status
>> has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
>>
>> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative
>> "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument
>> that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Herb,
>> I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways
>> that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important
>> work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always
>> outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place
>> holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw
>> the lines for the category.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some
>>> pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This
>>> appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that
>>> and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the
>>> subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them
>>> with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology
>>> argue
>>> otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book
>>> that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think
>>> "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns
>>> yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as
>>> determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats,"
>>> without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft
>>> Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical
>>> change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that
>>> genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing
>>> about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative
>>> constructions.
>>> Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and
>>> produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces
>>> regularity.
>>>
>>> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative
>>> "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of
>>> "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We
>>> can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar,
>>> and I know you're not suggesting that.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>> Herb,
>>> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to
>>> just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required
>>> in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that
>>> touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for
>>> sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that
>>> relative clause?
>>> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing
>>> classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works.
>>> The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of
>>> a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR
>>> IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside
>>> the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason,
>>> we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes
>>> a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content
>>> clause than a relative. We can also use "that"
>>> along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what
>>> she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the
>>> feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and
>>> "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for
>>> non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content
>>> clauses.
>>> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative
>>> clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
>>> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I
>>> think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I
>>> bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be
>>> distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual
>>> number, the "in"
>>> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
>>> dialect.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>> Seth,
>>>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>>>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>>>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>>>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>>>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>>>
>>>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late]
>>>> is my
>>>> sister.
>>>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl
>>>> [Kate saw] is
>>>> my sister.
>>>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter].
>>>> The girl
>>>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>>>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I
>>>> sat next
>>>> to] is my sister.
>>>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose
>>>> father
>>>> died] told me she was sad.
>>>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who
>>>> Kate
>>>> is
>>>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>>>
>>>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>>>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>>>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>>>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>>>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>>>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>>>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>>>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>>>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>>>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>>>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual
>>>> in speech.
>>>>
>>>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>>>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which
>>>> in this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we
>>>> see is that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level
>>>> of the hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped
>>>> if the gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is
>>>> related to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in
>>>> noun clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>>>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>>>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from
>>>> wh-relatives.
>>>>
>>>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>>>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and
>>>> asyndetic relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than
>>>> "that."
>>>> This
>>>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>>>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>>>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>>>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>>>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>>>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>>>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>>>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>>>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and
>>>> didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>>>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>>>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>>>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>>>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are
>>>> still so much a function of formal education and of Standard English
>>>> that when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to
>>>> initiate clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in
>>>> sentences like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it
>>>> rained."
>>>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard
>>>> dialects.
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>> Hey, Herb--
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>>>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>>>> nice break from grading.
>>>>
>>>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>>>> claim you make. You say
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>>>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>>>
>>>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>>>
>>>> Happy end-of-semester--
>>>> Seth
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Seth Katz
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of English
>>>> Bradley University
>>>>
>>>> Faculty Advisor
>>>> Bradley University Hillel
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>>>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of
>>>> "that"
>>>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>>>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the
>>>> position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on
>>>> Historical Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more
>>>> recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>>>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>>>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>>>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>>>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>>>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the
>>>> relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches
>>>> that Casey missed..."
>>>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>>>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject
>>>> that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing
>>>> problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence
>>>> without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in
>>>> "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that"
>>>> would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some
>>>> speakers will use but writers will avoid.
>>>> The
>>>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>>>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or
>>>> asyndetic relative clauses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all
>>>> of its non-demonstrative uses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>>>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>>>
>>>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would
>>>> expect
>>>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>>>
>>>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>>>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in
>>>> Huddleston& Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this
>>>> analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21
>>>> (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's
>>>> a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>>>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>>>> some thoughts on.
>>>>
>>>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>>>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>>>
>>>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>>>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>>>
>>>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>>>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>>>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most
>>>> biologists."
>>>>
>>>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative
>>>> pronoun?
>>>>
>>>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>>>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it
>>>> has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you"
>>>> as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up
>>>> front.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Chorazy
>>>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>>>> School
>>>>
>>>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:02:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Herb,
Oddly enough, I found this on a site about grooming Maltese
dogs
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:21:03 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
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Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Dick,
Evidence that the surest way to find an example of something in the wild is to say that it doesn't occur!
As you undoubtedly noticed, "thatever" gets 17,600 raw googits, many of which are spacing problems that end up linking subordinator "that" with adverb "ever" as in "the strangest thing that ever happened." But if you eliminate those, there is still a significant proportion of hits that use "thatever" as an indefinite relative pronoun. So it does occur and, while not common, isn't at all rare enough to be passed off as a blip in the data.
I take this as another way in which relative "that" is behaving pronominally. Like genitive "that's," we have morphosyntactic evidence of the change, not just impressionistic judgment.
I just googled "thats" and got over a hundred million hits. I went through the first hundred, and there was not a single instance of "thats" as a genitive relative pronoun, although I know I've heard it used that way. Google being what it is, my "thats" search turned up a lot of instances with the apostrophe as well. I don't know quite what to make of this result.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 9:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Herb,
Oddly enough, I found this on a site about grooming Maltese dogs Dick, Evidence that the surest way to find an example of something in the wild is to say that it doesn’t occur! As you undoubtedly noticed, “thatever” gets 17,600 raw googits, many of which are spacing problems that end up linking subordinator “that” with adverb “ever” as in “the strangest thing that ever happened.” But if you eliminate those, there is still a significant proportion of hits that use “thatever” as an indefinite relative pronoun. So it does occur and, while not common, isn’t at all rare enough to be passed off as a blip in the data. I take this as another way in which relative “that” is behaving pronominally. Like genitive “that’s,” we have morphosyntactic evidence of the change, not just impressionistic judgment. I just googled “thats” and got over a hundred million hits. I went through the first hundred, and there was not a single instance of “thats” as a genitive relative pronoun, although I know I’ve heard it used that way. Google being what it is, my “thats” search turned up a lot of instances with the apostrophe as well. I don’t know quite what to make of this result. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit Herb, On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 7:41 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Craig, Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Dick,
I appreciate the clarity of your arguments and of your presentation of data. I don't know how to evaluate claims that are based on impression, however well-informed the impression is.
There is no question that interesting things are happening in the grammar of "that." I suspect that the strong impression that Craig and others on the list have that relative "that" is distinct from subordinator "that" and is pronominal is at least congruent with the changes that are taking place, the occurrence of genitive "thats" and of "thatever."
This raises questions of how historical change works in language, especially analogical change, which is consistent in its irregularity. We get the innovative past tense "dove" from "dive" by analogy to "drive/drove," but we don't get "diven" by analogy to "driven." These two changes in the grammar of "that" don't indicate that relative "that" is becoming a pronoun but simply that in two morphologically distinct uses it has taken on pronominal function. Without morphosyntactic evidence I'm not comfortable calling relative "that" a pronoun. It's part of one of two relative clause structures in English. "That" relatives are an innovation in late Old English, but they develop from the OE paratactic relative, where the status of the clause as relative could frequently only be established pragmatically. Wh-relatives, as I noted earlier, are a separate system borrowed from Latin. The traditional school grammar treatment of relative "that" as a pronoun is simply a bad analysis based on the orthographic identity of subordinator "that" and demonstrative "that," one that has a long history but no validity, as Jespersen showed three quarters of a century ago.
These two relative clause systems persist in Modern Standard English, and the wh-relative remains a result of overt learning, hence the continuing confusion over matters like the gender of relative "that." And, interestingly, wh-relatives are not a systematic feature for a lot of non-standard speakers of English. They are a feature of educated English, passed on through education.
I know as a linguist I'm supposed to examine contemporary data to determine how the language works now, but I'm also a historical linguist, and my colleagues have occasionally chided me for using historical evidence to understand how the language is today.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 8:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Herb,
Here's some additional data about "that" in relative clauses to supplement what you presented in an earlier post. In the examples, Ø represents no spoken word (e.g., "the book Ø we read" = the book we read), and * represents an ungrammatical term (e.g., "the author *to that we wrote").
Restrictive relative clause
Subject:
the author who/that/*Ø wrote the book...
the book which/that/*Ø inspired us...
Direct object:
the author whom/that/Ø we admired...
the book which/that/Ø the author wrote...
Object of preposition:
the author whom/that/Ø we wrote to...
the author to whom/*to that/*to Ø we wrote...
the book from which/*from that/*from Ø we read...
Possessive:
the author whose/?that's/*Ø book we admired...
the book whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø cover we admired...
Nonrestrictive relative clause
Tolstoy, who/*that/*Ø wrote War and Peace, ...
War and Peace, which/*that/*Ø Tolstoy wrote, ...
Tolstoy, whom/*that/*Ø we read about, ...
Tolstoy, about whom/*about that/*about Ø we read, ...
War and Peace, whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø plot we summarized, ...
Some observations:
1. In restrictive clauses, "that" occurs in the same positions as "who," "whom," and "which" for subject, direct object, and object of a clause-final preposition.
2. "That" occurs in the same positions as Ø except for subject of a restrictive clause.
3. Unlike "who" or "which," "that" cannot directly follow a preposition.
4. Unlike "who" but like "which," "that" does not have a possessive form ("whose" but not "which's" or "that's"). This fact might not be significant, since "whose" seems to be the universal possessive relative pronoun, representing both animate and inanimate noun phrases (unlike "who/m," which represents only animate phrases).
5. Unlike "who," "whom," and "which," "that" does not occur in nonrestrictive clauses.
The data is decidedly mixed, and you are wise to state, "I'm not willing to say that pronominal status [of "that"] has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use [that's]." You and others presented several arguments, historical and otherwise, for the anti-pronoun position. The chief argument for the pro-pronoun position is intuitive. For at least some people, "the author who wrote the book" and "the author that wrote the book" seem indistinguishable, with the "who" and "that" seeming to represent "the author" in the relative clause. On the other hand, if "that" is a relative pronoun, why can't we say "the author to that we wrote"? For me the jury is still out, and I hope to read further contributions.
Dick
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:10 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask] Dick, I appreciate the clarity of your arguments and of your presentation of data. I don’t know how to evaluate claims that are based on impression, however well-informed the impression is. There is no question that interesting things are happening in the grammar of “that.” I suspect that the strong impression that Craig and others on the list have that relative “that” is distinct from subordinator “that” and is pronominal is at least congruent with the changes that are taking place, the occurrence of genitive “thats” and of “thatever.” This raises questions of how historical change works in language, especially analogical change, which is consistent in its irregularity. We get the innovative past tense “dove” from “dive” by analogy to “drive/drove,” but we don’t get “diven” by analogy to “driven.” These two changes in the grammar of “that” don’t indicate that relative “that” is becoming a pronoun but simply that in two morphologically distinct uses it has taken on pronominal function. Without morphosyntactic evidence I’m not comfortable calling relative “that” a pronoun. It’s part of one of two relative clause structures in English. “That” relatives are an innovation in late Old English, but they develop from the OE paratactic relative, where the status of the clause as relative could frequently only be established pragmatically. Wh-relatives, as I noted earlier, are a separate system borrowed from Latin. The traditional school grammar treatment of relative “that” as a pronoun is simply a bad analysis based on the orthographic identity of subordinator “that” and demonstrative “that,” one that has a long history but no validity, as Jespersen showed three quarters of a century ago. These two relative clause systems persist in Modern Standard English, and the wh-relative remains a result of overt learning, hence the continuing confusion over matters like the gender of relative “that.” And, interestingly, wh-relatives are not a systematic feature for a lot of non-standard speakers of English. They are a feature of educated English, passed on through education. I know as a linguist I’m supposed to examine contemporary data to determine how the language works now, but I’m also a historical linguist, and my colleagues have occasionally chided me for using historical evidence to understand how the language is today. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit Herb, Subject: the author who/that/*Ø wrote the book... the book which/that/*Ø inspired us... Direct object: the author whom/that/Ø we admired... Object of preposition: the author whom/that/Ø we wrote to... Possessive: the author whose/?that's/*Ø book we admired... Nonrestrictive relative clause Tolstoy, who/*that/*Ø wrote War and Peace, ... Some observations: The data is decidedly mixed, and you are wise to state, "I'm not willing to say that pronominal status [of "that"] has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use [that's]." You and others presented several arguments, historical and otherwise, for the anti-pronoun position. The chief argument for the pro-pronoun position is intuitive. For at least some people, "the author who wrote the book" and "the author that wrote the book" seem indistinguishable, with the "who" and "that" seeming to represent "the author" in the relative clause. On the other hand, if "that" is a relative pronoun, why can't we say "the author to that we wrote"? For me the jury is still out, and I hope to read further contributions. On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:10 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Craig, Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Craig,
You'd be right about extending the argument to "who" if it weren't for the case that wh-relatives are a separate system borrowed from Latin. Wh-relatives and "that"/asyndetic relatives are two separate systems historically, grammatically, and socially. I just wrote about some of this to Dick so I won't repeat it here.
I'm comfortable with "thats" and "thatever" as pronominal now that I've looked at some evidence. But I can't extend that analysis to bare relative "that" because there is simply no evidence. To make a cognitive argument we still have to have evidence, and I suspect that could be done, but I haven't seen it done yet.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 8:51 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Herb,
By the same logic, "Anyone touches you touches me" would be proof that "who" is not a pronoun. I think deleting "who" is equally likely (at least to my ear test), though, as you say, nonstandard.
We also have "that" as pronoun in content clauses in ways that could seem parallel to the relatives.
"I believe that is true." That, in this sentence, is clearly pronoun subject. We can add a subordinator. "I believe that that is true." It can also be contracted, something that doesn't happen with a subordinator. "I believe that's true."
Relative version: "I believe anything that is true." "I believe anything that's true." "A belief that's true..."
I don't mean by this to diminish the argument that "that" is more limited than you would expect from a pronoun. Again, I think it may be slipping between categories, acting a little differently in relatives than it does as subordinator in content clauses. Again, I think noticing how it acts is more useful than wedging it into a category, especially if it will be unique in whatever category you place it in.
It's either a unique pronoun or a unique subordinator.
Craig>
Craig,
>
> The pattern you illustrate below is certainly true of Standard English.
> However, in colloquial speech and in non-ztandard varieties of English
> "that" is dropped regularly before 0 subjects in relatives. I hear
> people say things like "Anyone/thing touches you touches me" fairly regularly.
> This syntactic change is taking place because that's outside the
> relative clause, just as it's outside the content clause. If it were
> a pronoun and perceived as a pronoun cognitively, then I would also
> expect to hear things like "Thatever gambles loses" along with "Whoever gambles loses."
> But that's one I don't hear. The fact that "that" doesn't delete before
> a 0 subject relative clause in Formal Standard English reflects the
> conservatism of that dialect.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 5:54 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Herb,
> It has always been my understanding that finite subordinate
> clauses require an explicit subject. That may be one reason why the
> relative can't be dropped if it's in subject role.
> Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me."
> "Anyone [whom] you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first.
>
> Example: "Anything that touches you touches me."
> "Anything [that]you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second, but not the first.
>
> There is nothing parallel to that with content clauses since the
> "that" remains fully outside the clause and is never used to stand in
> (or place hold)for a missing subject. Relative clauses and content
> clauses have formal (not just functional) differences.
>
> Craig
>
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function
>> is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing
>> in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a
>> solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows
>> from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for
>> example, that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support.
>> Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very
>> cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal
>> status has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
>>
>> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative
>> "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument
>> that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Herb,
>> I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways
>> that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important
>> work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always
>> outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place
>> holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw
>> the lines for the category.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on
>>> some pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties.
>>> This appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that
>>> rel-that and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling
>>> identity of the subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to
>>> identify them with each other, even if their history and their
>>> syntax and morphology argue
>>> otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book
>>> that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think
>>> "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns
>>> yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as
>>> determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be "thats,"
>>> without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft
>>> Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical
>>> change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that
>>> genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us
>>> nothing about what's happening categorially to "that" in other
>>> relative constructions.
>>> Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and
>>> produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces
>>> regularity.
>>>
>>> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative
>>> "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar
>>> of "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage.
>>> We can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about
>>> grammar, and I know you're not suggesting that.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>> Herb,
>>> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to
>>> just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required
>>> in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that
>>> touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for
>>> sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that
>>> relative clause?
>>> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing
>>> classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works.
>>> The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of
>>> a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T
>>> OCCUR IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully
>>> outside the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For
>>> that reason, we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was
>>> granted" includes a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is
>>> more like a content clause than a relative. We can also use "that"
>>> along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what
>>> she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the
>>> feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and
>>> "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for
>>> non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content
>>> clauses.
>>> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative
>>> clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
>>> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern,
>>> I think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which
>>> I bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be
>>> distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual
>>> number, the "in"
>>> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a
>>> spoken dialect.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>> Seth,
>>>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>>>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>>>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>>>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>>>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>>>
>>>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late]
>>>> is my
>>>> sister.
>>>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl
>>>> [Kate saw] is
>>>> my sister.
>>>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter].
>>>> The girl
>>>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>>>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I
>>>> sat next
>>>> to] is my sister.
>>>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose
>>>> father
>>>> died] told me she was sad.
>>>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who
>>>> Kate
>>>> is
>>>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>>>
>>>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>>>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>>>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>>>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>>>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>>>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>>>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>>>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>>>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>>>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>>>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual
>>>> in speech.
>>>>
>>>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>>>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which
>>>> in this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we
>>>> see is that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest
>>>> level of the hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be
>>>> dropped if the gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon
>>>> that is related to language processing needs. Otherwise
>>>> that-deletion in noun clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>>>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>>>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from
>>>> wh-relatives.
>>>>
>>>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the
>>>> history of the language. Historically, English had only the
>>>> that-type and asyndetic relatives, although the subordinator was
>>>> "tha" rather than "that."
>>>> This
>>>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>>>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>>>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have
>>>> wh-relatives until the Late Old English period when they developed
>>>> probably from indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin,
>>>> which the scribes of the time knew well. In Latin, relative
>>>> clauses had to be formed with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>>>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>>>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared
>>>> and didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>>>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>>>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>>>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>>>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are
>>>> still so much a function of formal education and of Standard
>>>> English that when non-standard speakers attempt to use the
>>>> wh-pronouns to initiate clauses they frequently use them in unusual
>>>> ways, as in sentences like "We were going to have a picnic
>>>> Saturday, which it rained."
>>>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard
>>>> dialects.
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>> Hey, Herb--
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>>>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>>>> nice break from grading.
>>>>
>>>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>>>> claim you make. You say
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>>>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>>>
>>>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>>>
>>>> Happy end-of-semester--
>>>> Seth
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Seth Katz
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of English
>>>> Bradley University
>>>>
>>>> Faculty Advisor
>>>> Bradley University Hillel
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>>>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of
>>>> "that"
>>>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>>>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the
>>>> position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on
>>>> Historical Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more
>>>> recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>>>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>>>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided.
>>>> When "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>>>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are
>>>> the
>>>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the
>>>> relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches
>>>> that Casey missed..."
>>>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if
>>>> the relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the
>>>> subject that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid
>>>> processing problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in
>>>> a sentence without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate
>>>> clause, so in "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that"
>>>> would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some
>>>> speakers will use but writers will avoid.
>>>> The
>>>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>>>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or
>>>> asyndetic relative clauses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all
>>>> of its non-demonstrative uses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>>>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>>>
>>>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would
>>>> expect
>>>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>>>
>>>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>>>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in
>>>> Huddleston& Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this
>>>> analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21
>>>> (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's
>>>> a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>>>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>>>> some thoughts on.
>>>>
>>>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>>>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>>>
>>>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>>>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>>>
>>>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that":
>>>> "Lynn Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>>>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most
>>>> biologists."
>>>>
>>>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative
>>>> pronoun?
>>>>
>>>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following?
>>>> "Should you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember
>>>> that it has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you"
>>>> as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up
>>>> front.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Chorazy
>>>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>>>> School
>>>>
>>>> Nulla dies sine linea. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>>>> visit the list's web interface at:
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>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface
>>>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join
>>>> or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface
>>>> at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
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>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>>>
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>> at:
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 20:27:54 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Barron's Master the Basics
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 21:06:59 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 01:00:43 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 09:45:07 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
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Herb,
I make those identifying versus descriptive decisions (restrictive
versus nonrestrictive in traditional terms) all the time when writing
and editing, so it may be that this has deeply influenced my thinking.
Many storms that come up the coast stall off shore.... The storm of
December 12, which came up the coast, stalled off shore.
Since restrictive versus nonrestrictive seems the main decision, it
probably influences my belief that these are otherwise functioning the
same. Also, if I believe "that" can't delete when the null element
would be in subject position, it seems sensible to believe that "that"
is standing in that slot in some sort of way. Are these thought
processes irrelevant? The language is very much a written language for
many of us.
I googled "that's" and came up with a huge number of hits, the great
majority of the "that's life" variety. But a sizeable number also
occur in relative clauses, maybe the most famous being the New York
Times motto: "all the news that's fit to print." "All the news is fit
to print" would of course change the meaning drastically, as would
"all the news, which is fit to print." Do we have other subordinators
that contract with finite verbs? I can't think of any. Maybe we have a
round hole and a square hole and are trying to figure out where to put
our triangular peg.
Craig
Bruce,
>
> You make essentially the point about relative clauses that Dwight Bolinger
> made in his typically marvelous little book That's That (Mouton 1972)
> about the presence and absence of the subordinator "that" at the beginning
> of content clauses. It's been a while, about 35 years, since I read the
> book, and my copy is long gone, but it’s a very careful and incisive
> discussion of the differences between content clauses with "that" and
> without "that."
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 12:07 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>
> Craig (& Herb),
>
> These examples seem a little messed up to me, as there seems to be another
> possibility. You folks have tried to be formal about the distinction
> between persons and things. But it seems to me that the real distinction
> relevant to the deletion has to do with the identifying function of
> "that." This is opposed to the descriptive function of "who" "whom" etc.
> Lexical gaps seem to have allowed these two dimensions (person vs. thing
> and indentity vs. description) to cross over. I think its a lot like the
> transitive vs. intransitive of "set/sit," "lay,lie" getting mixed up with
> an animate vs. inanimate distinction (or human vs. non-human, depending on
> the pressure of other forms).
>
> Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me." This is descriptive of
> the indefinite person, still indefinite.
> "Anyone that touches you touches me." This is meant to more
> fully identify the indefinite person. Now it seems
> appropriate to refer the person as "that person." The same
> thing is distinguishable in object position:
> "Anyone whom you touch touches me."
> "Anyone that you touch touches me."
> "Anyone you touch touches me." Now there is little doubt
> that the person has been identified.
> Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first, because
> it is "that," the identifier that is being deleted. When the
> indefinite pronoun is changed to "anything," the "who" option cannot
> get in the way. But then, when the "which" option is taken, we are
> dealing with a description that does not serve as an identifier. We
> refer to these objects as "such a person" or "such a thing." The
> demonstrative "that" is no longer appropriate.
>
> The restrictive nature of the adjective clause in "that" follows from its
> identifying function. The non-restrictive possibilities with "who, which"
> follow from their essential descriptive function. When the latter
> connectives are used restrictively, their descriptive function is apt to
> get overlooked when decisions are made about whether the identifying
> "that" might be more appropriate.
>
> Bruce
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
> Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 17:54:22 -0500
>
> Herb,
> It has always been my understanding that finite subordinate clauses
> require an explicit subject. That may be one reason why the relative
> can't be dropped if it's in subject role.
> Example: "Anyone who touches you touches me."
> "Anyone [whom] you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second example, but not the first.
>
> Example: "Anything that touches you touches me."
> "Anything [that]you touch touches me."
> Deletion is possible in the second, but not the first.
>
> There is nothing parallel to that with content clauses since the
> "that" remains fully outside the clause and is never used to stand in
> (or place hold)for a missing subject. Relative clauses and content
> clauses have formal (not just functional) differences.
>
> Craig
>
>
>> Craig,
>>
>> My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function
>> is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing
>> in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a
>> solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows
>> from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example,
>> that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support.
>> Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very
>> cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status
>> has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
>>
>> Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative
>> "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument
>> that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 10:22 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>
>> Herb,
>> I might be content with saying that relative "that" acts in ways
>> that are very unique and that make it hard to classify. The important
>> work is in describing how it acts. In content clauses, it is always
>> outside the clause, but in relative clauses, it sometimes has a place
>> holding function. The category we place it in depends on how we draw
>> the lines for the category.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On 12/18/2010 10:13 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:
>>> Craig,
>>>
>>> A question was raised off-list about whether "that" is taking on some
>>> pronoun function in the genitive in non-standard varieties. This
>>> appears to be the case. I like your examples showing that rel-that
>>> and conj-that behave alike, but I think the spelling identity of the
>>> subordinator and the demonstrative leads speakers to identify them
>>> with each other, even if their history and their syntax and morphology
>>> argue
>>> otherwise. In a non-standard construction like "Did you see a book
>>> that's cover was torn?" "that's" is clearly pronominal. I think
>>> "that's" arises by analogy to the genitive pronouns
>>> yours/his/hers/its/ours/theirs even though those can't be used as
>>> determiners. (And, by the way, I think the spelling should be
>>> "thats,"
>>> without the apostrophe, like the other genitive pronouns. Microsoft
>>> Word keeps putting in the apostrophe for some reason.) Analogical
>>> change is by its very nature irregular, and so that fact that
>>> genitive "thats" is developing in non-standard usage tells us nothing
>>> about what's happening categorially to "that" in other relative
>>> constructions.
>>> Remember Sturtevant's Paradox: Sound change is regular and
>>> produces irregularity; analogical change is irregular and produces
>>> regularity.
>>>
>>> On morphosyntactic grounds, I maintain the arguments that relative
>>> "that" is not a pronoun. We can gain insight into how the grammar of
>>> "that" is changing only by extrapolating from examples of usage. We
>>> can't do much with people's naïve feeling and hunches about grammar,
>>> and I know you're not suggesting that.
>>>
>>> Herb
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 10:38 AM
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>
>>> Herb,
>>> You and I have been over this one before and I don't want to
>>> just repeat that. But I do have a question. When "that" is required
>>> in the subject slot of a relative clause (As in "Anything that
>>> touches you touches me") is "that" simply holding down a slot (for
>>> sentence processing ease)or is it actually acting as subject in that
>>> relative clause?
>>> My current sense of this is that it's more a matter of drawing
>>> classification lines than it is of disputing how this stuff works.
>>> The dynamics of a relative clause are different from the dynamics of
>>> a content clause BECAUSE DELETION OF A SENTENCE ELEMENT DOESN'T OCCUR
>>> IN CONTENT CLAUSES. In a content clause, "that" remains fully outside
>>> the clause (in a way that the "wh" pronouns do not.) For that reason,
>>> we can say "His wish that she would be at peace was granted" includes
>>> a clause ("that she would be at peace") that is more like a content
>>> clause than a relative. We can also use "that"
>>> along with "wh" pronouns in a content clause. "I believe that what
>>> she said was right." In a relative clause, we have much more the
>>> feeling that we are choosing between them, as we do with "that" and
>>> "which". Some books recommend "that" for restrictive, "which" for
>>> non-restrictive. You have nothing parallel to that choice in content
>>> clauses.
>>> So "that" has some overlap with the "wh" pronouns in relative
>>> clauses that it doesn't have in content clauses.
>>> I have seen a sudden increase in an awkward "in which" pattern, I
>>> think coming out of New York City. "We were driving a car in which I
>>> bought from my brother." That's not an actual example, so I may be
>>> distorting the context, but in the cases I've seen, an unusual
>>> number, the "in"
>>> seems not at all appropriate. It does seem to come more from a spoken
>>> dialect.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>> Seth,
>>>> That's one of the arguments I didn't go into. There is a hierarchy
>>>> of grammatical relations that governs all sorts of movement and
>>>> deletion processes across languages, called the Keenan-Comrie
>>>> Accessibility Hierarchy. Here's an example from the Wikipedia
>>>> article on the KCAH, which is worth reading:
>>>>
>>>> Subject That's the man [who ran away]. The girl [who came late]
>>>> is my
>>>> sister.
>>>> Direct object That's the man [I saw yesterday]. The girl
>>>> [Kate saw] is
>>>> my sister.
>>>> Indirect object That's the man [to whom I gave the letter].
>>>> The girl
>>>> [whom I wrote a letter to] is my sister.
>>>> Oblique That's the man [I was talking about]. The girl [whom I
>>>> sat next
>>>> to] is my sister.
>>>> Genitive That's the man [whose sister I know]. The girl [whose
>>>> father
>>>> died] told me she was sad.
>>>> Obj of Comp That's the man [I am taller than]. The girl [who
>>>> Kate
>>>> is
>>>> smarter than] is my sister.
>>>>
>>>> Notice that "that" can occur in prepositional phrases only if the
>>>> preposition is stranded. "...to that I was talking" is not possible.
>>>> Also, the genitive, as I pointed out earlier, does not allow "that."
>>>> These are precisely the positions in which asyndetic relatives are
>>>> also ungrammatical. There is an extension of this in colloquial
>>>> speech and in non-standard dialects where the gap in the relative
>>>> clause is filled by a resumptive pronoun. These occur in genitive
>>>> and comparatives especially, although they'll also occur in more
>>>> complex constructions. An example would be "?I'd like you to meet
>>>> the poet that we read a lot of her work last year." We certainly
>>>> would not allow that in formal writing, but it's not at all unusual
>>>> in speech.
>>>>
>>>> The comparative marker "than" acts a lot like a preposition in
>>>> English, and so if we combine it with prepositional phrases, which
>>>> in this version are collapsed with indirect objects, then what we
>>>> see is that asyndetic relatives are blocked only at the lowest level
>>>> of the hierarchy, Genitives. The fact that "that" can't be dropped
>>>> if the gap is in subject position is a separate phenomenon that is
>>>> related to language processing needs. Otherwise that-deletion in
>>>> noun clauses and in relatives is pretty much the same rule.
>>>> That-relatives and zero-relatives then fall together into one
>>>> subclass of relative clauses that behave differently from
>>>> wh-relatives.
>>>>
>>>> This distinction between that- and wh-relatives reflects the history
>>>> of the language. Historically, English had only the that-type and
>>>> asyndetic relatives, although the subordinator was "tha" rather than
>>>> "that."
>>>> This
>>>> is a reflection of the strongly paratactic structure of Old English:
>>>> not a lot of subordination but lots of main clauses in sequence,
>>>> sometimes conjoined by "and." Old English did not have wh-relatives
>>>> until the Late Old English period when they developed probably from
>>>> indefinite relatives under the influence of Latin, which the scribes
>>>> of the time knew well. In Latin, relative clauses had to be formed
>>>> with relative pronouns fully inflected for gender, number, and case.
>>>> After the Norman Conquest, when the tradition of Alfred the Great's
>>>> English scriptoria was suppressed, wh-relatives also disappeared and
>>>> didn't reappear until the late 13th c.
>>>> when, once again, Latin influenced writers borrowed the structure
>>>> from Latin. Wh-relatives even today are more strongly a feature of
>>>> educated standard English than of non-standard dialects, which use
>>>> that- and zero- relatives much more. In fact, wh-relatives are
>>>> still so much a function of formal education and of Standard English
>>>> that when non-standard speakers attempt to use the wh-pronouns to
>>>> initiate clauses they frequently use them in unusual ways, as in
>>>> sentences like "We were going to have a picnic Saturday, which it
>>>> rained."
>>>> Such wh-coordination is not at all uncommon in spoken non-standard
>>>> dialects.
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Katz, Seth
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 3:04 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>> Hey, Herb--
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for recapitulating the argument for that being just a
>>>> subordinator and not a pronoun. You always make me think. A lot. A
>>>> nice break from grading.
>>>>
>>>> Unless I am misunderstanding you, I would note an exception to a
>>>> claim you make. You say
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the wh-pronouns are deletable in adjective clauses, when the
>>>> pronoun fills the direct object role in the dependent clause, as in
>>>>
>>>> The woman whom you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>> The woman _____ you met this morning is an old friend of mine.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing something in what you said?
>>>>
>>>> Happy end-of-semester--
>>>> Seth
>>>>
>>>> Dr. Seth Katz
>>>> Assistant Professor
>>>> Department of English
>>>> Bradley University
>>>>
>>>> Faculty Advisor
>>>> Bradley University Hillel
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of
>>>> Stahlke, Herbert F.W.
>>>> Sent: Fri 12/17/2010 12:45 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Re: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We've had some extensive discussion in past years on the status of
>>>> "that"
>>>> in clauses like these. There has not been complete agreement on all
>>>> of it, but here's the position I've taken, which is also the
>>>> position of Otto Jespersen in his A Modern English Grammar on
>>>> Historical Principles and Huddleston& Pullum in their rather more
>>>> recent Cambridge Grammar of the English Language.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are two function words "that" in English. One is the distal
>>>> demonstrative "that" with its plural "these," and the other is the
>>>> subordinator "that" as found in the clauses you have provided. When
>>>> "that" is used to introduce a relative clause, it is simply a
>>>> subordinator, not a relative pronoun. The relative pronouns are the
>>>> wh- words. This analysis implies that there is a gap in the
>>>> relative clause corresponding to the head noun, so in "The pitches
>>>> that Casey missed..."
>>>> the gap is in direct object position where "pitches" would be if the
>>>> relative clause were a main clause instead. If it's the subject
>>>> that is zero, most speakers require "that" to avoid processing
>>>> problems that arise when a second finite verb occurs in a sentence
>>>> without any overt marking that it is in a subordinate clause, so in
>>>> "The ball that got past Casey was a strike" the dropping of "that"
>>>> would leave "The ball got past Casey was a strike" which some
>>>> speakers will use but writers will avoid.
>>>> The
>>>> fact that "that" is required there for clarity is not evidence that
>>>> it's a relative pronoun but simply a restriction on bare or
>>>> asyndetic relative clauses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are several reasons for calling "that" a subordinator in all
>>>> of its non-demonstrative uses.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> * It's always unstressed, as is the subordinator "that."
>>>> Pronominal and determiner "that" are rarely unstressed.
>>>>
>>>> * If it were a pronoun in relative clauses, then we would
>>>> expect
>>>> it to have a plural "those" in "*The pitches those Casey missed...."
>>>>
>>>> * There is no possessive form, although there is for wh-
>>>> relatives, so we can't say "*The ball that's casing came off...."
>>>>
>>>> * It is deletable, like the subordinator "that" and unlike
>>>> pronouns.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are more argument, and I recommend the treatment in
>>>> Huddleston& Pullum. There is also a very thorough critique of this
>>>> analysis by Johan van der Auwera in Journal of Linguistics 21
>>>> (1985), 149-179 titled "Relative that - a centennial dispute. It's
>>>> a fascinating, thoughtful, and incisive critique.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
>>>> Sent: Friday, December 17, 2010 12:21 PM
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>> Subject: Noun clauses
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello to all... I've been talking with students (11th grade) about
>>>> clauses and have collected some questions that the list might have
>>>> some thoughts on.
>>>>
>>>> The use of "that" as the head of a noun clause (and subject): "That
>>>> the healthcare system needs fixing is obvious."
>>>>
>>>> "That" used in an adjective phrase: "Unlike the cat that slept all
>>>> day, the dog ran around and barked."
>>>>
>>>> And if we can get some insight to the following use of "that": "Lynn
>>>> Margulis' theory that evolution is a process rather than a
>>>> competition differs dramatically from the theories of most
>>>> biologists."
>>>>
>>>> Are the last two simply restrictive clauses using the relative
>>>> pronoun?
>>>>
>>>> Also (a bit different) - anyone care to parse the following? "Should
>>>> you have any trouble identifying the house, just remember that it
>>>> has a big brass knocker on the door." Students see the implied "you"
>>>> as the subject and its verb remember, but not what's going on up
>>>> front.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you very much!
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>
>>>> John
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> John Chorazy
>>>> English III Academy, Honors, and Academic Pequannock Township High
>>>> School
>>>>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 07:56:30 -0800
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 12:02:06 -0600
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Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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If I were to believe all the hogwash he dishes out to me about the future, I shall have been being taken for a ride.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Johnston
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:56 AM
Subject: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
Bruce Despain wrote: It is easy to make up such examples.
OK, show us one.
~~~~~
Brad had written:) It is written that there is no such thing as a correct (i.e., reasonable) past perfect progressive. I challenge you to find one. I'll bet you can't do it.
.brad.21dec10. (Winter Solstice)
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:11:43 -0800
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 16:16:18 -0800
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Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 19:45:37 -0600
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Subject: Mastering the Challenge
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John had been chopping firewood before I got there.
tjr
On Tuesday 12/21/2010 at 10:01 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
>
>
> Bruce Despain wrote: It is easy to make up such examples.
>
> OK, show us one.
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Brad had written:) It is written that there is no such thing as a
> correct (i.e., reasonable) past perfect progressive. I challenge you
> to find one. I'll bet you can't do it.
>
> .brad.21dec10. (Winter Solstice)
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 21:00:14 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Mastering the Challenge
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If you google "had been drinking" you get millions of hits.
Craig
> John had been chopping firewood before I got there.
>
> tjr
>
>
>
> On Tuesday 12/21/2010 at 10:01 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Bruce Despain wrote: It is easy to make up such examples.
>>
>> OK, show us one.
>>
>> ~~~~~
>>
>> Brad had written:) It is written that there is no such thing as a
>> correct (i.e., reasonable) past perfect progressive. I challenge you
>> to find one. I'll bet you can't do it.
>>
>> .brad.21dec10. (Winter Solstice)
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:41:35 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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Brad,
This is my example:
"I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rumblings for too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] that they were not worth my time."
This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense (Aspect) and of the (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al. in "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in "Aspect."
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 15:16
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Hutsell? hogwash? to you? future? Qu'est-ce qui se passe?
>
> At first glance, I thought it was Despain dodging but he seemed
> confident, so
> I'm sure he'll be along i.d.c.
>
> Let's see, Ralph, while you're on the line, can you either find
> or create a
> reasonable sentence using the "past perfect progressive"? I'm
> trying to either
> confirm or discount the assertion that there is no such thing.
>
> .brad.21dec10.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: RALPH HUTSELL <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 1:02:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> If I were to believe all the hogwash he dishes out to me
> about the future, I
> shall have been being taken for a ride.
> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: Brad Johnston
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:56 AM
> >Subject: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> >
> >
> >Bruce Despain wrote: It is easy to make up such examples.
> >
> >OK, show us one.
> >
> >~~~~~
> >
> >Brad had written:) It is written that there is no such thing
> as a correct
> >(i.e., reasonable) past perfect progressive. I challenge you to
> find one. I'll
> >bet you can't do it.
> >
> >.brad.21dec10. (Winter Solstice)
> >
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 05:35:31 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:03:45 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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That would be my take on it. It's contains a relative clause with no subordinator. Because the sentence sounds as if it comes from an ad, it uses the sort of elliptical language common to ads and leaves out, as you point out, "It is" or "This is."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Lavitt
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:25:32 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:21:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Is "last" acting like a negative polarity item?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask] Is “last” acting like a negative polarity item? Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Happy holidays all. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:18:59 -0500
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From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:29:36 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:34:29 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
"It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
brush that has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------=_SW_1352010998_1293143669_mpa=--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:08:08 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an
option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
> "It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
> in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
> brush that has yet to be created.
>
> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
> as "will" in front of it.
>
> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
>> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
>> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:26:22 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Comments: RFC822 error:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 21:05:20 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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L0RJVj48L0RJVj4========================================================================Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 03:01:27 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Craig,
You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
"Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as other lexical categories.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second, third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning possible
> references. One almost demands that the brush be in the vicinity for
> reference. The other might well reference a brush that has yet to be
> created.
>
> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such as
> "will" in front of it.
>
> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 06:49:52 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Brad,
I know what the past perfect is, and I understand its value on the time axis. I use it in a couple of languages. I can also define it, but what difference would it make to you? You are not a believer.
I am not peevish. I am just tired of your endless repetitions of the same ignorant affirmations on the tenses in English. You need to do a little reading before you can make some relevant conversation. Quirk and Comrie's books are not diversions from the topic. They contain information that might improve your understanding of the English tenses.
Happy Holidays!
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 07:07:56 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Comments: RFC822 error:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1101655644-1293203276=:42169--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 11:14:36 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Herb,
I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
"second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
compound noun (a set phrase.)
I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
"latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
"Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
"before she left for Paris."
In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an ordinal
numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" doesn't
mean the same thing.
>
Craig,
>
> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative polarity
> items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed out, and it's
> the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the sentence we're
> talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising historically
> from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in modern English and
> "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, for example, "She was one
> of the two last people to see him alive" or, as in the film title, "The
> Last Man on Earth." These are both places where an number word cannot
> occur. We can get "the second last man on earth" but not "the last second
> man on earth." This suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically
> it overlaps with ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can
> function as other lexical categories.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
> reference) is the last one.
> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an
> option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
> forever."
>
> Craig>
>
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning possible
>> references. One almost demands that the brush be in the vicinity for
>> reference. The other might well reference a brush that has yet to be
>> created.
>>
>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such as
>> "will" in front of it.
>>
>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>
>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
>> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>
>> tj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>
>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 24 Dec 2010 10:44:00 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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It is very unpleasant to access this listerv only to find petulant
jibes at other
subscribers. As I know very little about how such listservs function,
I have
no idea how to establish a protocol of politeness and civility. At
the end of
the day I think that is more important than the sort of exchange below
and
the smug superiority it displays.
tj
On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
>
>
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
> >> Brad,
>
>
>
> >> I know what the past perfect is,
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> and I understand its value on the time axis.
>
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> I use it in a couple of languages
>
> You haven't yet demonstrated it in English
>
> >> I can also define it,
>
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> but what difference would it make to you?
>
> Lots, Eduard. You think I have nothing better to do than grapple with
> a defensive grammarian? Hardly.
>
> >> You are not a believer.
>
> I believe in the obvious results of a 10-year inquiry into the nature
> and extent of the misuse of 'had' in contemporary English.
>
> >> I am not peevish.
>
> Resipsa Loquitur.
>
> >> I am just tired of your endless repetitions of the same ignorant
> affirmations on the tenses in English.
>
> If you're tired, hit the 'delete' button. I'll miss you. You're
> interesting and good fun until you get peevish.
>
> >> You need to do a little reading before you can make some relevant
> conversation.
>
> I have read more than you will ever read on the subject.
>
> >> Quirk and Comrie's books are not diversions from the topic. They
> contain information that might improve your understanding of the
> English tenses.
>
>
> Fine. Let's see it ... or direct me to page numbers or sections. I
> stand by "Quirk won't help you."
>
> >> Happy Holidays!
>
> >> Eduard
>
> "No offense intended"
>
> .brad.24dec10.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> > pleasant and
> > interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> > it. He doesn't
> > know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> > it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> > rant at me. Just do it.)
> >
> > I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> > send me a
> > definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> > read 30
> > variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> > look it up if they
> > want.
> >
> > He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> > drops Quirk's
> > name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> > a definitive
> > statement? Quirk won't help.
> >
> > Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> > Who has Quirk
> > handy?
> >
> > .brad.23dec10.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> >
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > This is my example:
> >
> > "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> > your rumblings for
> > too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> > that they were not
> > worth my time."
> >
> > This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> > (Aspect) and of the
> > (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> > in "A
> > Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> > "Aspect."
> >
> >
> >
> > Eduard
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------=_SW_22450620_1293209040_mpa=--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 13:07:26 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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TJ,
I share your sentiments. As Bruce mentioned in an earlier post, subscribers
to this list leave after each of these exchanges, and the list grows
smaller. It is sad, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. It is an
open, public list with no moderators or censures, which has been a
long-standing preference by the majority of members. I greatly value the
freedom of expression on the list and the lack of censorship, but I also am
sad each time I see members leave the list immediately after unpleasant or
repetitive exchanges.
I encourage everyone to use email filters to hide or block unwanted messages
of any kind!
Happy holidays to all!
John Alexander
On Fri, Dec 24, 2010 at 10:44 AM, T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> It is very unpleasant to access this listerv only to find petulant jibes
> at other
> subscribers. As I know very little about how such listservs function, I
> have
> no idea how to establish a protocol of politeness and civility. At the end
> of
> the day I think that is more important than the sort of exchange below and
> the smug superiority it displays.
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
>
> *From:* Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Sent:* Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
> *Subject:* Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
> >> Brad,
>
> >> I know what the past perfect is,
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> and I understand its value on the time axis.
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> I use it in a couple of languages
>
> You haven't yet demonstrated it in English
>
> >> I can also define it,
>
> Fine. Let's see it.
>
> >> but what difference would it make to you?
>
> Lots, Eduard. You think I have nothing better to do than grapple with
> a defensive grammarian? Hardly.
>
> >> You are not a believer.
>
> I believe in the obvious results of a 10-year inquiry into the nature and
> extent of the misuse of 'had' in contemporary English.
>
> >> I am not peevish.
>
> Resipsa Loquitur.
>
> >> I am just tired of your endless repetitions of the same ignorant
> affirmations on the tenses in English.
>
> If you're tired, hit the 'delete' button. I'll miss you. You're interesting
> and good fun until you get peevish.
>
> >> You need to do a little reading before you can make some relevant
> conversation.
>
> I have read more than you will *ever* read on the subject.
>
> >> Quirk and Comrie's books are not diversions from the topic. They contain
> information that might improve your understanding of the English tenses.
>
> Fine. Let's see it ... or direct me to page numbers or sections. I stand by
> "Quirk won't help you."
>
> >> Happy Holidays!
>
> >> Eduard
>
> "No offense intended"
>
> .brad.24dec10.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> > Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> > pleasant and
> > interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> > it. He doesn't
> > know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> > it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> > rant at me. Just do it.)
> >
> > I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> > send me a
> > definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> > read 30
> > variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> > look it up if they
> > want.
> >
> > He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> > drops Quirk's
> > name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> > a definitive
> > statement? Quirk won't help.
> >
> > Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> > Who has Quirk
> > handy?
> >
> > .brad.23dec10.
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> >
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > This is my example:
> >
> > "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> > your rumblings for
> > too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> > that they were not
> > worth my time."
> >
> > This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> > (Aspect) and of the
> > (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> > in "A
> > Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> > "Aspect."
> >
> >
> >
> > Eduard
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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TJ,
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0015177fd00c727f89049840d15a--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 16:11:40 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Mary Jo Napholz <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I have learned to use the delete button often with this list serve. Some discussions are relevant to me and others not. I just check out the tread and if I see the bickering attitude, click on delete. Some want to prove that they are "right," but most of us just wish to be part of the discourse; sometimes as observes, sometimes as contributors. Don't leave the list serve because of a few, start your own thread about what is relevant to you. Delete those conversations that are not. Happy Holidays to all. Mary Jo Napholz
-----Original Message-----
From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2010 11:44 am
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
It is very unpleasant to access this listerv only to find petulant jibes at other
subscribers. As I know very little about how such listservs function, I have
no idea how to establish a protocol of politeness and civility. At the end of
the day I think that is more important than the sort of exchange below and
the smug superiority it displays.
tj
On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
>> I know what the past perfect is,
Fine. Let's see it.
>> and I understand its value on the time axis.
Fine. Let's see it.
>> I use it in a couple of languages
You haven't yet demonstrated it in English
>> I can also define it,
Fine. Let's see it.
>> but what difference would it make to you?
Lots, Eduard. You think I have nothing better to do than grapple with a defensive grammarian? Hardly.
>> You are not a believer.
I believe in the obvious results of a 10-year inquiry into the nature and extent of the misuse of 'had' in contemporary English.
>> I am not peevish.
Resipsa Loquitur.
>> I am just tired of your endless repetitions of the same ignorant affirmations on the tenses in English.
If you're tired, hit the 'delete' button. I'll miss you. You're interesting and good fun until you get peevish.
>> You need to do a little reading before you can make some relevant conversation.
I have read more than you will ever read on the subject.
>> Quirk and Comrie's books are not diversions from the topic. They contain information that might improve your understanding of the English tenses.
Fine. Let's see it ... or direct me to page numbers or sections. I stand by "Quirk won't help you."
>> Happy Holidays!
>> Eduard
"No offense intended"
.brad.24dec10.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
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I have learned to use the delete button often with this list serve. Some discussions are relevant to me and others not. I just check out the tread and if I see the bickering attitude, click on delete. Some want to prove that they are "right," but most of us just wish to be part of the discourse; sometimes as observes, sometimes as contributors. Don't leave the list serve because of a few, start your own thread about what is relevant to you. Delete those conversations that are not. Happy Holidays to all. Mary Jo Napholz
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 25 Dec 2010 22:07:32 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_SW_1271590120_1293336452_mpa="
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Mary Jo, you're right. One final thought on this current topic and
then I'll pose
a new question.
The problem with instant deletion may very well blip folks who are
talking about
something other than whatever was originally offending. May I suggest
that one
might at the very least add a caveat in the original Subject line to
indicate a change
of topic?
Now, to my ignorance: I'd very much like to hear a discussion of what
some of us
old folks once called nominative absolutes.
tj
On Saturday 12/25/2010 at 3:16 pm, Mary Jo Napholz wrote:
> I have learned to use the delete button often with this list serve.
> Some discussions are relevant to me and others not. I just check out
> the tread and if I see the bickering attitude, click on delete. Some
> want to prove that they are "right," but most of us just wish to be
> part of the discourse; sometimes as observes, sometimes as
> contributors. Don't leave the list serve because of a few, start your
> own thread about what is relevant to you. Delete those conversations
> that are not. Happy Holidays to all. Mary Jo Napholz
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
> To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2010 11:44 am
> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> It is very unpleasant to access this listerv only to find petulant
> jibes at other
> subscribers. As I know very little about how such listservs function,
> I have
> no idea how to establish a protocol of politeness and civility. At
> the end of
> the day I think that is more important than the sort of exchange below
> and
> the smug superiority it displays.
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
>> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>>
>> >> Brad,
>>
>>
>>
>> >> I know what the past perfect is,
>>
>> Fine. Let's see it.
>>
>> >> and I understand its value on the time axis.
>>
>>
>> Fine. Let's see it.
>>
>> >> I use it in a couple of languages
>>
>> You haven't yet demonstrated it in English
>>
>> >> I can also define it,
>>
>>
>> Fine. Let's see it.
>>
>> >> but what difference would it make to you?
>>
>> Lots, Eduard. You think I have nothing better to do than grapple with
>> a defensive grammarian? Hardly.
>>
>> >> You are not a believer.
>>
>> I believe in the obvious results of a 10-year inquiry into the nature
>> and extent of the misuse of 'had' in contemporary English.
>>
>> >> I am not peevish.
>>
>> Resipsa Loquitur.
>>
>> >> I am just tired of your endless repetitions of the same ignorant
>> affirmations on the tenses in English.
>>
>> If you're tired, hit the 'delete' button. I'll miss you. You're
>> interesting and good fun until you get peevish.
>>
>> >> You need to do a little reading before you can make some relevant
>> conversation.
>>
>> I have read more than you will ever read on the subject.
>>
>> >> Quirk and Comrie's books are not diversions from the topic. They
>> contain information that might improve your understanding of the
>> English tenses.
>>
>>
>> Fine. Let's see it ... or direct me to page numbers or sections. I
>> stand by "Quirk won't help you."
>>
>> >> Happy Holidays!
>>
>> >> Eduard
>>
>> "No offense intended"
>>
>> .brad.24dec10.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
>> Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
>> Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>> > Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
>> > pleasant and
>> > interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
>> > it. He doesn't
>> > know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
>> > it, Eduard, do it. Don't
>> > rant at me. Just do it.)
>> >
>> > I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
>> > send me a
>> > definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
>> > read 30
>> > variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
>> > look it up if they
>> > want.
>> >
>> > He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
>> > drops Quirk's
>> > name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
>> > a definitive
>> > statement? Quirk won't help.
>> >
>> > Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
>> > Who has Quirk
>> > handy?
>> >
>> > .brad.23dec10.
>> >
>> >
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
>> > To: [log in to unmask]
>> > Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
>> > Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> >
>> >
>> > Brad,
>> >
>> > This is my example:
>> >
>> > "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
>> > your rumblings for
>> > too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
>> > that they were not
>> > worth my time."
>> >
>> > This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
>> > (Aspect) and of the
>> > (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
>> > in "A
>> > Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
>> > "Aspect."
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Eduard
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
>> "Join or leave the list"
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select
> "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this
> LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 08:16:13 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88209EMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 08:35:47 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an English teacher -- "what
is the past perfect?" And they think, (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the
past perfect is. But then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I
better look it up, just to be sure.
The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action or state completed
at of before a past time spoken of"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-1004010431-1293467747=:28864--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 12:03:58 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Brad:
You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the first of two actions that occurred at different points in the past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am wrong.
All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if all the other sources are wrong?
If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
Jack
[log in to unmask] Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED2C999C2A90LSCSMAILCLSCS_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 07:22:38 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-879683357-1293549758=:74239"
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Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can you be set
for,html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? .. so that this is bold and
this is bold and red and this is underlined andthis is in italics?
.brad.28dec10.
________________________________
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Brad:
You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the suspense going --
or on the listserv. I would define the past perfect as the aspect of the past
we use to express the first of two actions that occurred at different points in
the past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action in the remote
past, while the simple past is used to express the action that happened closest
to the present. Clearly, I am wrong.
All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past perfect? 2) what is the source of
your definition/usage if all the other sources are wrong?
If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg your indulgence. If
you answer these, I'll file away your response so that I will not have to
trouble you again.
Jack
[log in to unmask]
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an English teacher -- "what
is the past perfect?" And they think, (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the
past perfect is. But then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I
better look it up, just to be sure.
The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action or state completed
at of before a past time spoken of"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-879683357-1293549758=:74239--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 11:31:36 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
MIME-Version: 1.0
Craig,
As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work, what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that out.
"Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative, not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a compound noun (a set phrase.)
I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example, would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
"Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or "before she left for Paris."
In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" doesn't mean the same thing.
>
Craig,
>
> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative polarity
> items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed out, and
> it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the sentence
> we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, for
> example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" or, as
> in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both places
> where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second last man on
> earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This suggests that
> "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with ordinals and
> also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as other lexical categories.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
> reference) is the last one.
> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
> forever."
>
> Craig>
>
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning possible
>> references. One almost demands that the brush be in the vicinity for
>> reference. The other might well reference a brush that has yet to be
>> created.
>>
>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>> as "will" in front of it.
>>
>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>
>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>
>> tj
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>
>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 14:33:15 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Yes, it is all coming through.
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? .. so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is underlined and this is in italics?
.brad.28dec10.
________________________________
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Brad:
You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the first of two actions that occurred at different points in the past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am wrong.
All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if all the other sources are wrong?
If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
Jack
[log in to unmask] Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0F79F16D80ACAF4697CCB4902BACE2ED2C999C2A91LSCSMAILCLSCS_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:24:05 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Hi Jack,
The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from him) will not answer your two questions. His asking you about your ability to read encoded text is so that he can avoid responding to your questions by inundating you with irrelevant examples.
Watch and see. It's practically a science.
Happy new year,
Susan
On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
> Yes, it is all coming through.
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
> Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? .. so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is underlined and this is in italics?
>
> .brad.28dec10.
>
> From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
> Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
> Brad:
>
> You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the first of two actions that occurred at different points in the past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am wrong.
>
> All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if all the other sources are wrong?
>
> If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
>
> Jack
> [log in to unmask]
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
> Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an English teacher -- "what is the past perfect?" And they think, (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the past perfect is. But then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I better look it up, just to be sure.
>
> The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action or state completed at of before a past time spoken of"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Apple-Mail-6--415850244--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 15:50:42 -0800
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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I'm sorry you're angry, Susan. Please show me any questions you asked (please
note past tense) that I did not answer and I will hasten to do so.
Did you read, and understand, what I wrote below, beginning, "Here's what
happens, T.J."?
Are you set for html? Is this bold and blue?
I already replied to Jack, by the way, at some length. I'm quite sure he won't
be cross. I'm sorry you are but I can't fix it without knowing what brought on
your outburst. Please show me the questions you asked to which I did not reply.
Not getting answers to questions is par for the course. I'm still waiting for
Karl, Eduard, T.J., and now you.
Here's another for you. What is the past perfect, Susan?
.brad.28dec10.
________________________________
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 4:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Hi Jack,
The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from him) will not
answer your two questions. His asking you about your ability to read encoded
text is so that he can avoid responding to your questions by inundating you with
irrelevant examples.
Watch and see. It's practically a science.
Happy new year,
Susan
On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
Yes, it is all coming through.
>
>
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
>
>Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can you be set
>for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? .. so that this is
>bold and this is bold and red and this is underlined and this is in italics?
>
>.brad.28dec10.
>
>
>
________________________________
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
>Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
>
>Brad:
>
>You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the suspense going --
>or on the listserv. I would define the past perfect as the aspect of the past
>we use to express the first of two actions that occurred at different points in
>the past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action in the remote
>past, while the simple past is used to express the action that happened closest
>to the present. Clearly, I am wrong.
>
>All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past perfect? 2) what is the source of
>your definition/usage if all the other sources are wrong?
>
>If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg your indulgence. If
>you answer these, I'll file away your response so that I will not have to
>trouble you again.
>
>Jack
>[log in to unmask]
>
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On
Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
>
>
>Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an English teacher -- "what
>is the past perfect?" And they think, (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the
>past perfect is. But then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I
>better look it up, just to be sure.
>
>The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action or state completed
>at of before a past time spoken of"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0-898461873-1293580242=:32501--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 06:27:22 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="Boundary_(ID_MX1Ky0YrCssWp2T2RyOODg)"
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Susan,
So, now you are an expert psychologist who has the powers to divine how Brad is going to answer to Jack? My, my! Besides, your manners are very bad. If I had to try to divine, too, what kind of character is hiding behind your messages (Which I am not going to do!), I would say that your profile is that of a single and bitter woman over fifty, desperate for attention and willing to do anything to get it. So sad!
But, of course, I have no divining powers, so I will not attempt to profile you. You may have just had a bad day and were in a bad mood when you wrote the message to Jack.
No offense intended.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 15:28
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
To: [log in to unmask]
> Hi Jack,
>
> The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from
> him) will not answer your two questions. His asking you
> about your ability to read encoded text is so that he can avoid
> responding to your questions by inundating you with irrelevant
> examples.
>
> Watch and see. It's practically a science.
>
> Happy new year,
> Susan
>
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is all coming through.
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can
> you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? ..
> so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is
> underlined and this is in italics?
> >
> > .brad.28dec10.
> >
> > From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Brad:
> >
> > You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the
> suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the
> past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the
> first of two actions that occurred at different points in the
> past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action
> in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the
> action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am
> wrong.>
> > All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past
> perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if
> all the other sources are wrong?
> >
> > If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg
> your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your
> response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
> >
> > Jack
> > [log in to unmask]
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an
> English teacher -- "what is the past perfect?" And they think,
> (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the past perfect is. But
> then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I better
> look it up, just to be sure.
> >
> > The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action
> or state completed at of before a past time spoken of"
>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Boundary_(ID_MX1Ky0YrCssWp2T2RyOODg)--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:19:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
"rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
>
> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work, what we
> would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't be hard to
> come up with a suitable context, say, a murder investigation trying to
> narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not sure there is a "normal" in
> sentence structure, at least not in the sense I think you're using the
> term. As Susan Schmerling put it a long time ago in her dissertation on
> intonation, "There is no normal sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of
> English intonation bear that out.
>
> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative, not
> surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of the
> doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> Herb,
> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
> compound noun (a set phrase.)
> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example, would
> mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would usually
> be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or "before she left
> for Paris."
> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an ordinal
> numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" doesn't
> mean the same thing.
> >
>
> Craig,
>>
>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative polarity
>> items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed out, and
>> it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the sentence
>> we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, for
>> example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" or, as
>> in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both places
>> where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second last man on
>> earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This suggests that
>> "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with ordinals and
>> also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as other lexical
>> categories.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>> reference) is the last one.
>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>> forever."
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning possible
>>> references. One almost demands that the brush be in the vicinity for
>>> reference. The other might well reference a brush that has yet to be
>>> created.
>>>
>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>>
>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>>
>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>>
>>> tj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>>
>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>>>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>>
>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:04:05 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Craig,
I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand, frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want, I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one, however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
>
> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that out.
>
> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> Herb,
> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
> compound noun (a set phrase.)
> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
> "before she left for Paris."
> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
> doesn't mean the same thing.
> >
>
> Craig,
>>
>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>> other lexical categories.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>> reference) is the last one.
>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>> forever."
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>>> has yet to be created.
>>>
>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>>
>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>>
>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>>
>>> tj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>>
>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>>
>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
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>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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> at:
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Craig, I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German Fürst “prince.” However, its superlative status is much older than for “last,” which is around in Middle English. “First” as a superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than “last.” It did, after all, come first and last last. Herb -----Original Message----- Herb, It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth." The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth." That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand, frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want, I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one, however hyperbolic that might be. There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic prominence. One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural." We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree that "last" has some of its history intact. Craig Craig, > > As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work, > what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't > be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder > investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not > sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the > sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a > long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal > sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that out. > > "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative, > not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent > grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of > the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not > infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of > /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there > arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are > identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs. > > Herb > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase > > Herb, > I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two > people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which > is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to > say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man. > ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or > "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a > compound noun (a set phrase.) > I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like > "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the > chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last" > would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example, > would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke". > "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would > usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or > "before she left for Paris." > In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an > ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" > doesn't mean the same thing. > > > > Craig, >> >> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this >> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative >> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed >> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the >> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong. >> >> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising >> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in >> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, >> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" >> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both >> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second >> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This >> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with >> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as >> other lexical categories. >> >> Herb >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock >> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase >> >> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second, >> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines >> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group >> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core >> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an >> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in >> reference) is the last one. >> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the >> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can >> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need." >> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is >> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush >> forever." >> >> Craig> >> >> >> The last grill brush you will ever need. >>> >>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It >>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning >>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the >>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that >>> has yet to be created. >>> >>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must >>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such >>> as "will" in front of it. >>> >>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun >>> that serves as the direct object of "will need." >>> >>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function >>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"? >>> >>> tj >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote: >>>> Happy holidays all. >>>> >>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally >>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?: >>>> >>>> The last grill brush you will ever need. >>>> >>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. >>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. >>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, >>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts? >>>> >>>> Thank you, >>>> >>>> Scott Lavitt >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE8821CEMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:27:15 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
> "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
> all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
> "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
> don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
> about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
> my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
> that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>
>
>> Herb,
>
>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
>
>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
>
>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
>
>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>
>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>
>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>
>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>
>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
>
>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>
>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>
>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>
>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>
>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>
>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>
>> "before she left for Paris."
>
>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>
>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>
>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> Craig,
>
>>>
>
>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>
>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>
>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>
>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>
>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
>>>
>
>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>
>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>
>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>
>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>
>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>
>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>
>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>
>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>
>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>
>>> other lexical categories.
>
>>>
>
>>> Herb
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>>
>
>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>
>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>
>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>
>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>
>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>
>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>
>>> reference) is the last one.
>
>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>
>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>
>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>
>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>
>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>
>>> forever."
>
>>>
>
>>> Craig>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>
>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>
>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>
>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>
>>>> has yet to be created.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>
>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>
>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>
>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>
>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> tj
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>
>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>
>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>> following?:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>
>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>
>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>
>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Thank you,
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>>> interface at:
>
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>> interface
>
>>>> at:
>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:41:23 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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A wise question, Grasshopper.
Modern English "nigh," "near," and "next" represent the reflexes of an Old English positive nçah, comparative near, and superlative nîehst that served as both adjectives and adverbs. They gradually became independent forms and were replaced in Late Middle English by the forms nigh/nigher/nighest and near/nearer/nearest, formed by analogical leveling.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did "next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than
> for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a
> superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of
> millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say
> "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be
> careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living"
> if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
> agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It
>> wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs
>> are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] A wise question, Grasshopper. Modern English "nigh," "near," and "next" represent the reflexes of an Old English positive nçah, comparative near, and superlative nîehst that served as both adjectives and adverbs. They gradually became independent forms and were replaced in Late Middle English by the forms nigh/nigher/nighest and near/nearer/nearest, formed by analogical leveling. Herb -----Original Message----- So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did "next" come in? Craig> Craig, > > > > I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of > ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a > superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German > Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than > for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a > superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of > millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last. > > > > Herb > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase > > > > Herb, > > It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say > "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth." > > The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth." > > That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be > careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly > possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand, > frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a > great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as > "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of > flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush > you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was > simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would > collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want, > I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one, > however hyperbolic that might be. > > There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable > relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a > question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive > or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not > intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic > prominence. > > One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" > if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural." > > We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I > agree that "last" has some of its history intact. > > > > Craig > > Craig, > >> > >> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work, > >> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It >> wouldn't > >> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder > >> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not > >> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the > >> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a > >> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal > >> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that >> out. > >> > >> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative, > >> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent > >> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of > >> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not > >> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of > >> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there > >> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs >> are > >> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their >> castoffs. > >> > >> Herb > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > >> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM > > >> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase > >> > >> Herb, > >> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two > >> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," >> which > >> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange >> to > >> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man. > >> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or > >> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a > >> compound noun (a set phrase.) > >> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like > >> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the > >> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last" > >> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example, > >> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke". > >> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would > >> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or > >> "before she left for Paris." > >> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an > >> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" > >> doesn't mean the same thing. > >> > > >> > >> Craig, > >>> > >>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this > >>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative > >>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed > >>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the > >>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong. > >>> > >>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising > >>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in > >>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, > >>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" > >>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both > >>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second > >>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This > >>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with > >>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as > >>> other lexical categories. > >>> > >>> Herb > >>> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > >>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM > > >>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase > >>> > >>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second, > >>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines > >>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group > >>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core > >>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an > >>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in > >>> reference) is the last one. > >>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in >>> the > >>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can > >>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need." > >>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is > >>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill >>> brush > >>> forever." > >>> > >>> Craig> > >>> > >>> > >>> The last grill brush you will ever need. > >>>> > >>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or >>>> "It > >>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning > >>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the > >>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush >>>> that > >>>> has yet to be created. > >>>> > >>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must > >>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such > >>>> as "will" in front of it. > >>>> > >>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative >>>> pronoun > >>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need." > >>>> > >>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function > >>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"? > >>>> > >>>> tj > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote: > >>>>> Happy holidays all. > >>>>> > >>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally > >>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the >>>>> following?: > >>>>> > >>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need. > >>>>> > >>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. > >>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. > >>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, > >>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thank you, > >>>>> > >>>>> Scott Lavitt > >>>>> > >>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >>>>> interface at: > >>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >>>>> and select "Join or leave the list" > >>>>> > >>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >>>> interface > >>>> at: > >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" > >>>> > >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >>>> > >>> > >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >>> interface > >>> at: > >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >>> and select "Join or leave the list" > >>> > >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >>> > >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >>> interface > >>> at: > >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >>> and select "Join or leave the list" > >>> > >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >>> > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface > >> at: > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >> and select "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface > >> at: > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >> and select "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:47:25 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Superlative form of OE "neah" from which we derive "nigh."
tj
On Wednesday 12/29/2010 at 1:32 pm, Craig Hancock wrote:
> So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where
> did
> "next" come in?
>
> Craig>
>
> Craig,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
>> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
>> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to
>> German
>> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older
>> than for
>> "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative
>> goes
>> all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
>> "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb,
>>
>> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to
>> say "I
>> don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>>
>> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>>
>> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be
>> careful
>> about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
>> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
>> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
>> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
>> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
>> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
>> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
>> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
>> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
>> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
>> however hyperbolic that might be.
>>
>> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
>> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
>> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
>> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
>> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
>> prominence.
>>
>> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant
>> "living" if
>> my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>>
>> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
>> agree
>> that "last" has some of its history intact.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>>
>>>
>>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
>>
>>>
>>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>>
>>>
>>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>>
>>>
>>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>>
>>>
>>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>>
>>>
>>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>>
>>>
>>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>>> out.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>>
>>>
>>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>>
>>>
>>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>>
>>>
>>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>>
>>>
>>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>>
>>>
>>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>>
>>>
>>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
>>
>>>
>>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>>> castoffs.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Herb
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>>>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>>
>>>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Herb,
>>
>>>
>>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last
>>> two
>>
>>>
>>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
>>
>>>
>>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
>>
>>>
>>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>>
>>>
>>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>>
>>>
>>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>>
>>>
>>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>>
>>>
>>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something
>>> like
>>
>>>
>>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>>
>>>
>>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>>
>>>
>>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>>
>>>
>>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>>
>>>
>>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>>
>>>
>>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>>
>>>
>>> "before she left for Paris."
>>
>>>
>>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>>
>>>
>>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>>
>>>
>>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>>
>>>
>>> >
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Craig,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> other lexical categories.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first,
>>>> second,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> reference) is the last one.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in
>>>> the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever"
>>>> is
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> forever."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> has yet to be created.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> tj
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>>> following?:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> interface at:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> interface
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> at:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> interface
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> at:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> interface
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> at:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>
>>>
>>> interface
>>
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>>
>>>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
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>>
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>>>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>>
>>>
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>>
>>
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>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 16:57:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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TJ:
Sorry for the slow reply here; I avoided work email over the holidays. I'd certainly call the question use a main-clause example; I committed the old grammarian's sin of focusing on declaratives as the center of the linguistic universe. "Did he ever think of the answer" strikes me as raising more doubts about the person's success than does "Did he think of the answer," so I could at least argue the 'ever' is still adding an irrealis note (although that may be simply a result of the duration element 'ever' also adds).
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 5:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:17:42 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I could diagram it as a complex sentence with an understood subject and an
understood verb (present tense of 'to be'); however, that proposal may be a
questionable as "Ouch." That sentence has an understood subject and
predicate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
There are 9 messages totalling 915 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Independent clause or noun phrase (8)
2. Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 05:35:31 -0800
From: Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:03:45 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
That would be my take on it. It's contains a relative clause with no subordinator. Because the sentence sounds as if it comes from an ad, it uses the sort of elliptical language common to ads and leaves out, as you point out, "It is" or "This is."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Lavitt
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:25:32 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
"The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:21:37 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_
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Is "last" acting like a negative polarity item?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask] Is “last” acting like a negative polarity item? Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun. On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Happy holidays all. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:18:59 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:29:36 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:34:29 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
"It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
brush that has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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------=_SW_1352010998_1293143669_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_SW_1352010998_1293143669_mpa=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:08:08 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an
option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
> "It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
> in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
> brush that has yet to be created.
>
> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
> as "will" in front of it.
>
> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
>> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
>> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:26:22 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of pleasant and
interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do it. He doesn't
know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do it, Eduard, do it. Don't
rant at me. Just do it.)
I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to send me a
definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to read 30
variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them look it up if they
want.
He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he drops Quirk's
name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for a definitive
statement? Quirk won't help.
Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you. Who has Quirk
handy?
.brad.23dec10.
________________________________
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
Brad,
This is my example:
"I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rumblings for
too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] that they were not
worth my time."
This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense (Aspect) and of the
(Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al. in "A
Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in "Aspect."
Eduard
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--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
***********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:55:41 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary
--0015177fd00c37cdef0498bbdeab
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other
exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students
join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students
to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they
sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has
expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on
the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated
list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating
anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations
that make for successful listserv groups:
- All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality levels of
professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding postings.
*Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette*
Postings should exhibit the following:
1. Maturity and tact
2. Audience-appropriate language
3. Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
1. Libelous
2. Defamatory
3. Obscene
4. Pornographic
5. Threatening
6. Invasive of privacy
7. Abusive
8. Illegal
9. Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
10. Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
11. Create liability
12. Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor
messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would
require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay
away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with
ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial
spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to
encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0015177fd00c37cdef0498bbdeab
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other exchange it seems these days. Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette Postings should exhibit the following:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0015177fd00c37cdef0498bbdeab--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:25:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01CBA90F.C467C650"
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CBA90F.C467C650
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Thank you, John, for this email.
I've been on a number of public, unmoderated lists, and the key difference
in behavior among them comes directly from the list members. It works, too
- it's just a matter of forming the habit, really. I am certain this list
can be one, too.
-patty
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 4:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other
exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students
join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students
to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they
sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has
expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on
the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated
list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating
anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations
that make for successful listserv groups:
* All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality levels
of professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
1. Maturity and tact
2. Audience-appropriate language
3. Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
1. Libelous
2. Defamatory
3. Obscene
4. Pornographic
5. Threatening
6. Invasive of privacy
7. Abusive
8. Illegal
9. Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
10. Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
11. Create liability
12. Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor
messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would
require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay
away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with
ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial
spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to
encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CBA90F.C467C650
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thank you, John, for this email. I’ve been on a number of public, unmoderated lists, and the key difference in behavior among them comes directly from the list members. It works, too – it’s just a matter of forming the habit, really. I am certain this list can be one, too. -patty From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other exchange it seems these days. Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette Postings should exhibit the following: Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following: These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to encompass more than that. Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CBA90F.C467C650--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 22:50:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format="flowed"
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi John (and all!),
I have been sitting on a question that I'm not sure has anything to do
with grammar, but I know that many people on this list will be able to
answer my question.
Maybe this new question will lead to an interesting discussion.
I teach middle school, and my students have asked me why in writing
from the 1700s, something that looks like an f is sometimes used in
place of an s. What is that letter called? What is the rule about
when that letter was used? How did it come to be used? And why isn't
it used now?
I have the same questions about the symbol that connects a c to a t in
writing from the same time period.
Thanks for your information. I'll share with my students when we get
back together on Monday.
Jan
Quoting John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>:
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every
other exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of
students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high
school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve
better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by
more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of
unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them
the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will
understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share
some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv
groups:
* Â All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality
levels of professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding
postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
* Maturity and tact
* Audience-appropriate language
* Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
* Libelous
* Defamatory
* Obscene
* Pornographic
* Threatening
* Invasive of privacy
* Abusive
* Illegal
* Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
* Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
* Create liability
* Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or
censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so
would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've
tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I
will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant
offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't
have to expand the policies to encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 23:39:09 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Here's some additional data about "that" in relative clauses to supplement what you presented in an earlier post. In the examples, Ø represents no spoken word (e.g., "the book Ø we read" = the book we read), and * represents an ungrammatical term (e.g., "the author *to that we wrote").
Restrictive relative clause
the book which/that/Ø the author wrote...
the author to whom/*to that/*to
Ø we wrote...
the book from which/*from that/*from Ø we read...
the book whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø cover we admired...
War and Peace, which/*that/*Ø Tolstoy wrote, ...
Tolstoy, whom/*that/*Ø we read about, ...
Tolstoy, about whom/*about that/*about Ø we read, ...
War and Peace, whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø plot we summarized, ...
The data is decidedly mixed, and you are wise to state, "I'm not willing to say that pronominal status [of "that"] has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use [that's]." You and others presented several arguments, historical and otherwise, for the anti-pronoun position. The chief argument for the pro-pronoun position is intuitive. For at least some people, "the author who wrote the book" and "the author that wrote the book" seem indistinguishable, with the "who" and "that" seeming to represent "the author" in the relative clause. On the other hand, if "that" is a relative pronoun, why can't we say "the author to that we wrote"? For me the jury is still out, and I hope to read further contributions.
Dick
Craig,
My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example, that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support. Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
Herb
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Oddly enough, I found this on a site about grooming Maltese dogs: "Then take his two front paws in one hand. Raise your hand carefully
until his underside is "get-at-able" then very carefully perform
thatever i[t] is you intend to do."
Dick
Craig,
The pattern you illustrate below is certainly true of Standard English. However, in colloquial speech and in non-ztandard varieties of English "that" is dropped regularly before 0 subjects in relatives. I hear people say things like "Anyone/thing touches you touches me" fairly regularly. This syntactic change is taking place because that's outside the relative clause, just as it's outside the content clause. If it were a pronoun and perceived as a pronoun cognitively, then I would also expect to hear things like "Thatever gambles loses" along with "Whoever gambles loses." But that's one I don't hear. The fact that "that" doesn't delete before a 0 subject relative clause in Formal Standard English reflects the conservatism of that dialect.
Herb
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Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 9:02 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Oddly enough, I found this on a site about grooming Maltese dogs: "Then take his two front paws in one hand. Raise your hand carefully until his underside is "get-at-able" then very carefully perform thatever i[t] is you intend to do."
Dick
The pattern you illustrate below is certainly true of Standard English. However, in colloquial speech and in non-ztandard varieties of English "that" is dropped regularly before 0 subjects in relatives. I hear people say things like "Anyone/thing touches you touches me" fairly regularly. This syntactic change is taking place because that's outside the relative clause, just as it's outside the content clause. If it were a pronoun and perceived as a pronoun cognitively, then I would also expect to hear things like "Thatever gambles loses" along with "Whoever gambles loses." But that's one I don't hear. The fact that "that" doesn't delete before a 0 subject relative clause in Formal Standard English reflects the conservatism of that dialect.
Herb
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Sent: Monday, December 20, 2010 8:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Noun clauses
Here's some additional data about "that" in relative clauses to supplement what you presented in an earlier post. In the examples, Ø represents no spoken word (e.g., "the book Ø we read" = the book we read), and * represents an ungrammatical term (e.g., "the author *to that we wrote").
Restrictive relative clause
the book which/that/Ø the author wrote...
the author to whom/*to that/*to Ø we wrote...
the book from which/*from that/*from Ø we read...
the book whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø cover we admired...
War and Peace, which/*that/*Ø Tolstoy wrote, ...
Tolstoy, whom/*that/*Ø we read about, ...
Tolstoy, about whom/*about that/*about Ø we read, ...
War and Peace, whose/*which's/*that's/*Ø plot we summarized, ...
Dick
My problem with saying that it sometimes has a place holding function is that it's an impressionistic statement. If we ask what it's doing in a particular clause we can't provide any sort of evidence for a solution different form subordinator. A statement like yours follows from certain assumptions, but the assumptions themselves, for example, that "that" is a relative pronoun, are difficult to support. Historical change gives us some help but must be interpreted very cautiously, which is why I'm not willing to say that pronominal status has not developed beyond the non-standard genitive use.
Besides a general feeling about it, how can you argue that relative "that" is performing a function in the relative clause, an argument that can't be handled as well or better by deletion under identity?
Herb
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--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Barron's Master the Basics
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:49:49 -0800
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From: RALPH HUTSELL <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 1:02:06 PM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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From: RALPH HUTSELL <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 1:02:06 PM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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On Tuesday 12/21/2010 at 10:01 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 15:16
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Hutsell? hogwash? to you? future? Qu'est-ce qui se passe?
>
> At first glance, I thought it was Despain dodging but he seemed
> confident, so
> I'm sure he'll be along i.d.c.
>
> Let's see, Ralph, while you're on the line, can you either find
> or create a
> reasonable sentence using the "past perfect progressive"? I'm
> trying to either
> confirm or discount the assertion that there is no such thing.
>
> .brad.21dec10.
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: RALPH HUTSELL <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Tue, December 21, 2010 1:02:06 PM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> If I were to believe all the hogwash he dishes out to me
> about the future, I
> shall have been being taken for a ride.
> ----- Original Message -----
> >From: Brad Johnston
> >To: [log in to unmask]
> >Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 9:56 AM
> >Subject: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
> >
> >
> >Bruce Despain wrote: It is easy to make up such examples.
> >
> >OK, show us one.
> >
> >~~~~~
> >
> >Brad had written:) It is written that there is no such thing
> as a correct
> >(i.e., reasonable) past perfect progressive. I challenge you to
> find one. I'll
> >bet you can't do it.
> >
> >.brad.21dec10. (Winter Solstice)
> >
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote: Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote: Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a
spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This
is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
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On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
I share your sentiments. As Bruce mentioned in an earlier post, subscribers to this list leave after each of these exchanges, and the list grows smaller. It is sad, but I'm not sure what can be done about it. It is an open, public list with no moderators or censures, which has been a long-standing preference by the majority of members. I greatly value the freedom of expression on the list and the lack of censorship, but I also am sad each time I see members leave the list immediately after unpleasant or repetitive exchanges.
I encourage everyone to use email filters to hide or block unwanted messages of any kind!
Happy holidays to all!
John Alexander
On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
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From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2010 11:44 am
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
> Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>
>
> Brad,
>
> This is my example:
>
> "I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect]
> your rumblings for
> too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ]
> that they were not
> worth my time."
>
> This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense
> (Aspect) and of the
> (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al.
> in "A
> Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in
> "Aspect."
>
>
>
> Eduard
>
>
>
>
On Saturday 12/25/2010 at 3:16 pm, Mary Jo Napholz wrote: I have learned to use the delete button often with this list serve. Some discussions are relevant to me and others not. I just check out the tread and if I see the bickering attitude, click on delete. Some want to prove that they are "right," but most of us just wish to be part of the discourse; sometimes as observes, sometimes as contributors. Don't leave the list serve because of a few, start your own thread about what is relevant to you. Delete those conversations that are not. Happy Holidays to all. Mary Jo Napholz
From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
To: ATEG <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Fri, Dec 24, 2010 11:44 am
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
On Friday 12/24/2010 at 9:13 am, Brad Johnston wrote:
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Fri, December 24, 2010 7:49:52 AM
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
>> Brad,
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Thursday, December 23, 2010 20:29
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
To: [log in to unmask]
> Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of
> pleasant and
> interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do
> it. He doesn't
> know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do
> it, Eduard, do it. Don't
> rant at me. Just do it.)
>
> I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to
> send me a
> definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to
> read 30
> variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them
> look it up if they
> want.
>
> He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he
> drops Quirk's
> name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for
> a definitive
> statement? Quirk won't help.
>
> Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you.
> Who has Quirk
> handy?
>
> .brad.23dec10.
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask] join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the
present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the
present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, December 28, 2010 4:24:05 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation in the past that came before another situation in the past. (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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From: Susan van Druten <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 15:28
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
To: [log in to unmask]
> Hi Jack,
>
> The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from
> him) will not answer your two questions. His asking you
> about your ability to read encoded text is so that he can avoid
> responding to your questions by inundating you with irrelevant
> examples.
>
> Watch and see. It's practically a science.
>
> Happy new year,
> Susan
>
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is all coming through.
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can
> you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? ..
> so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is
> underlined and this is in italics?
> >
> > .brad.28dec10.
> >
> > From: "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Brad:
> >
> > You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the
> suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the
> past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the
> first of two actions that occurred at different points in the
> past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action
> in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the
> action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am
> wrong.>
> > All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past
> perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if
> all the other sources are wrong?
> >
> > If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg
> your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your
> response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
> >
> > Jack
> > [log in to unmask]
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an
> English teacher -- "what is the past perfect?" And they think,
> (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the past perfect is. But
> then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I better
> look it up, just to be sure.
> >
> > The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action
> or state completed at of before a past time spoken of"
> <Webster's 11th Edition>. They think, hmmm. The battle of
> Hastings had been fought before the Magna Carta was signed? That
> doesn't work, so maybe I should look elsewhere. (Webster's has
> agreed, by the way, to reconsider their entry for the present
> perfect before the 12th Edition goes to press, as well they
> should; they made a mess of it.)
> >
> > Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation
> in the past that came before another situation in the past.
> (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the
> past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the
> present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English
> Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
> >
> > Maybe since we got our language from the Latins, we should
> look there. Let's see. "The pluperfect tense indicates an action
> that takes place more in the past or prior to another past
> action." Hey, are these people copying from each other?
> <Latin for Dummies, Hull, Perkins, et al.>
> >
> > Quirk, Greenbaum, et al, don't try to define it, but they
> give, among other illustrations, "The goalkeeper had injured his
> leg and couldn't play", and "He had died in 1920, before his son
> was born".
> >
> > "The past perfect tense describes an action completed sometime
> in the past", <Columbia Guide to Standard American English, 1993>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense indicates that one past event preceded
> another", <Handbook of Technical Writing, Alred, Brusaw &
> Oliu, 2003>
> >
> > "The pluperfect is a compound tense conjugated with avoir and
> etre and is used to say what had happened", <Teach Yourself
> French Grammar, Sidwell & Haviland> (Isn't this a dandy?)
> >
> > "The past perfect is a perfective tense used to express action
> completed in the past", <The Free Dictionary>
> >
> > "The past perfect - An event or state started at one point in
> the past and ended at another point in the past", <Gareth
> Jones Website>
> >
> > "The past perfect is often used to emphasis (sic) that one
> action, event or condition ended before another past action,
> event, or condition ended." <University of Ottawa>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense represents an action as completed at a
> past time. It may denote that an action occurred at an
> indefinite or definite time in the past." <Descriptive
> English Grammar, Susan Emolyn Harman>
> >
> > I better quit before I bore you right out of your chair, T.J.
> The point is that if you try to look it up, you will find a
> hodgepodge of meaningless and inconsistent definitions and
> explanations. You will think, whateverthehell are these people
> talking about? Someone should sit down and try to figure out
> what it is and if it isn't anything, let's stop teaching it, or
> trying to teach it, since no one seems to know what it is.
> >
> > Of all the many people of whom I asked "what is it?", only two
> have been willing to answer. One said that "the past perfect is
> had + the past participle", which is rather like saying a ladder
> is something with a rung or a train is something with wheels (as
> are lawnmowers and rickshaws). The other more recent try, which
> you may have seen, we should leave lying with the sleeping dog,
> to not foment an unnecessary exchange of gunfire.
> >
> > ALL the others, and that includes the most eloquent and
> talkative on this listserv, cannot do it. I feel certain they
> would if they could but they can't. They don't know it
> themselves and when they try to look it up, they get what you
> see a sample of above. The "definitions" are all over the map
> and there are hundreds more like them.
> >
> > Let me ask you, T-J, what is the past perfect?
> >
> > If you either (a) rant and snort and call me names, or (b) not
> reply, you will, as any reasonable person would agree, prove my point.
> >
> > Good hunting. Let me know what you think. I'm very much
> interested. I've been at this for a long time but a reasonable,
> coherent conclusion everyone -- including but not limited to
> novelists, journalists, and grammarians -- can accept still
> seems far away. Maybe you can help us.
> >
> > .brad.27dec10.
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
On Wednesday 12/29/2010 at 1:32 pm, Craig Hancock wrote: So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
"last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
"last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
"rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig, As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
out. "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
/cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
castoffs. Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
"second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
compound noun (a set phrase.)
I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
"latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
"Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
"before she left for Paris."
In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
doesn't mean the same thing.
>
Craig,
You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
"Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
other lexical categories.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?: The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote: Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they
all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll
ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I
recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy
(coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a
main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He
was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of
people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
"you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated)
relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong
that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this?
"You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a
grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott
Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and
occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse
the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I
could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not
an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott
Lavitt
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ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote: Happy holidays
all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an
independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the
DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making
the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause.
Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv groups:
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
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Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 4:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv groups:
John Alexander
ATEG
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