English Grammar, Susan Emolyn Harman>
> >
> > I better quit before I bore you right out of your chair, T.J.
> The point is that if you try to look it up, you will find a
> hodgepodge of meaningless and inconsistent definitions and
> explanations. You will think, whateverthehell are these people
> talking about? Someone should sit down and try to figure out
> what it is and if it isn't anything, let's stop teaching it, or
> trying to teach it, since no one seems to know what it is.
> >
> > Of all the many people of whom I asked "what is it?", only two
> have been willing to answer. One said that "the past perfect is
> had + the past participle", which is rather like saying a ladder
> is something with a rung or a train is something with wheels (as
> are lawnmowers and rickshaws). The other more recent try, which
> you may have seen, we should leave lying with the sleeping dog,
> to not foment an unnecessary exchange of gunfire.
> >
> > ALL the others, and that includes the most eloquent and
> talkative on this listserv, cannot do it. I feel certain they
> would if they could but they can't. They don't know it
> themselves and when they try to look it up, they get what you
> see a sample of above. The "definitions" are all over the map
> and there are hundreds more like them.
> >
> > Let me ask you, T-J, what is the past perfect?
> >
> > If you either (a) rant and snort and call me names, or (b) not
> reply, you will, as any reasonable person would agree, prove my point.
> >
> > Good hunting. Let me know what you think. I'm very much
> interested. I've been at this for a long time but a reasonable,
> coherent conclusion everyone -- including but not limited to
> novelists, journalists, and grammarians -- can accept still
> seems far away. Maybe you can help us.
> >
> > .brad.27dec10.
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Susan,
So, now you are an expert psychologist who has the powers to divine how Brad is going to answer to Jack? My, my! Besides, your manners are very bad. If I had to try to divine, too, what kind of character is hiding behind your messages (Which I am not going to do!), I would say that your profile is that of a single and bitter woman over fifty, desperate for attention and willing to do anything to get it. So sad!
But, of course, I have no divining powers, so I will not attempt to profile you. You may have just had a bad day and were in a bad mood when you wrote the message to Jack.
No offense intended.
Eduard
----- Original Message -----
From: Susan van Druten <
[log in to unmask]>
Date: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 15:28
Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
To:
[log in to unmask]> Hi Jack,
>
> The next email from Brad (or any other subsequent email from
> him) will not answer your two questions. His asking you
> about your ability to read encoded text is so that he can avoid
> responding to your questions by inundating you with irrelevant
> examples.
>
> Watch and see. It's practically a science.
>
> Happy new year,
> Susan
>
>
>
> On Dec 28, 2010, at 2:33 PM, Dixon, Jack wrote:
>
> > Yes, it is all coming through.
> >
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [
[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 9:22 AM
> > To:
[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Thanks, Jack. Nice of you to drop by. Are you set for, or can
> you be set for, html, "color and graphics" by whatever name? ..
> so that this is bold and this is bold and red and this is
> underlined and this is in italics?
> >
> > .brad.28dec10.
> >
> > From: "Dixon, Jack" <
[log in to unmask]>
> > To:
[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Mon, December 27, 2010 1:03:58 PM
> > Subject: Re: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Brad:
> >
> > You may respond to me off the listserv if you want to keep the
> suspense going -- or on the listserv. I would define the
> past perfect as the aspect of the past we use to express the
> first of two actions that occurred at different points in the
> past. That is, past perfect is used to express the action
> in the remote past, while the simple past is used to express the
> action that happened closest to the present. Clearly, I am
> wrong.>
> > All I ask is two things: 1) what is the past
> perfect? 2) what is the source of your definition/usage if
> all the other sources are wrong?
> >
> > If you have answered these two questions in the past, I beg
> your indulgence. If you answer these, I'll file away your
> response so that I will not have to trouble you again.
> >
> > Jack
> >
[log in to unmask]> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston
> [
[log in to unmask]]> Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 10:35 AM
> > To:
[log in to unmask]> > Subject: T-J-Ray and the past-perfect
> >
> > Here's what happens, T.J. I say to someone -- often an
> English teacher -- "what is the past perfect?" And they think,
> (he or she thinks), Hey, I know what the past perfect is. But
> then at the behest of the Little Voice, they think, I better
> look it up, just to be sure.
> >
> > The first definition they find is that it "denotes an action
> or state completed at of before a past time spoken of"
> <Webster's 11th Edition>. They think, hmmm. The battle of
> Hastings had been fought before the Magna Carta was signed? That
> doesn't work, so maybe I should look elsewhere. (Webster's has
> agreed, by the way, to reconsider their entry for the present
> perfect before the 12th Edition goes to press, as well they
> should; they made a mess of it.)
> >
> > Next they find this one: "It is used to refer to a situation
> in the past that came before another situation in the past.
> (Hmmm, same problem.) The past perfect represents either the
> past of the simple past (well, hardly) or the past of the the
> present perfect", which we all know isn't true. <English
> Grammar, Sidney Greenbaum, 1986>
> >
> > Maybe since we got our language from the Latins, we should
> look there. Let's see. "The pluperfect tense indicates an action
> that takes place more in the past or prior to another past
> action." Hey, are these people copying from each other?
> <Latin for Dummies, Hull, Perkins, et al.>
> >
> > Quirk, Greenbaum, et al, don't try to define it, but they
> give, among other illustrations, "The goalkeeper had injured his
> leg and couldn't play", and "He had died in 1920, before his son
> was born".
> >
> > "The past perfect tense describes an action completed sometime
> in the past", <Columbia Guide to Standard American English, 1993>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense indicates that one past event preceded
> another", <Handbook of Technical Writing, Alred, Brusaw &
> Oliu, 2003>
> >
> > "The pluperfect is a compound tense conjugated with avoir and
> etre and is used to say what had happened", <Teach Yourself
> French Grammar, Sidwell & Haviland> (Isn't this a dandy?)
> >
> > "The past perfect is a perfective tense used to express action
> completed in the past", <The Free Dictionary>
> >
> > "The past perfect - An event or state started at one point in
> the past and ended at another point in the past", <Gareth
> Jones Website>
> >
> > "The past perfect is often used to emphasis (sic) that one
> action, event or condition ended before another past action,
> event, or condition ended." <University of Ottawa>
> >
> > "The past perfect tense represents an action as completed at a
> past time. It may denote that an action occurred at an
> indefinite or definite time in the past." <Descriptive
> English Grammar, Susan Emolyn Harman>
> >
> > I better quit before I bore you right out of your chair, T.J.
> The point is that if you try to look it up, you will find a
> hodgepodge of meaningless and inconsistent definitions and
> explanations. You will think, whateverthehell are these people
> talking about? Someone should sit down and try to figure out
> what it is and if it isn't anything, let's stop teaching it, or
> trying to teach it, since no one seems to know what it is.
> >
> > Of all the many people of whom I asked "what is it?", only two
> have been willing to answer. One said that "the past perfect is
> had + the past participle", which is rather like saying a ladder
> is something with a rung or a train is something with wheels (as
> are lawnmowers and rickshaws). The other more recent try, which
> you may have seen, we should leave lying with the sleeping dog,
> to not foment an unnecessary exchange of gunfire.
> >
> > ALL the others, and that includes the most eloquent and
> talkative on this listserv, cannot do it. I feel certain they
> would if they could but they can't. They don't know it
> themselves and when they try to look it up, they get what you
> see a sample of above. The "definitions" are all over the map
> and there are hundreds more like them.
> >
> > Let me ask you, T-J, what is the past perfect?
> >
> > If you either (a) rant and snort and call me names, or (b) not
> reply, you will, as any reasonable person would agree, prove my point.
> >
> > Good hunting. Let me know what you think. I'm very much
> interested. I've been at this for a long time but a reasonable,
> coherent conclusion everyone -- including but not limited to
> novelists, journalists, and grammarians -- can accept still
> seems far away. Maybe you can help us.
> >
> > .brad.27dec10.
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's
> web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--Boundary_(ID_MX1Ky0YrCssWp2T2RyOODg)--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 10:19:00 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
"rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
>
> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work, what we
> would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't be hard to
> come up with a suitable context, say, a murder investigation trying to
> narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not sure there is a "normal" in
> sentence structure, at least not in the sense I think you're using the
> term. As Susan Schmerling put it a long time ago in her dissertation on
> intonation, "There is no normal sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of
> English intonation bear that out.
>
> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative, not
> surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of the
> doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> Herb,
> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
> compound noun (a set phrase.)
> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example, would
> mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would usually
> be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or "before she left
> for Paris."
> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an ordinal
> numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need" doesn't
> mean the same thing.
> >
>
> Craig,
>>
>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative polarity
>> items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed out, and
>> it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the sentence
>> we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say, for
>> example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive" or, as
>> in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both places
>> where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second last man on
>> earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This suggests that
>> "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with ordinals and
>> also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as other lexical
>> categories.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>> reference) is the last one.
>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>> forever."
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning possible
>>> references. One almost demands that the brush be in the vicinity for
>>> reference. The other might well reference a brush that has yet to be
>>> created.
>>>
>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>>
>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>>
>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>>
>>> tj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>>
>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>>>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>>
>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:04:05 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Craig,
I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand, frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want, I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one, however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
>
> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that out.
>
> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> Herb,
> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
> compound noun (a set phrase.)
> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
> "before she left for Paris."
> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
> doesn't mean the same thing.
> >
>
> Craig,
>>
>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>> other lexical categories.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>> reference) is the last one.
>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>> forever."
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>>> has yet to be created.
>>>
>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>>
>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>>
>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>>
>>> tj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>>
>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>>
>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>> at:
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>>
>
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Craig,
I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German Fürst “prince.” However, its superlative status is much older than for “last,” which is around in Middle English. “First” as a superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than “last.” It did, after all, come first and last last.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand, frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want, I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one, however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
>
> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that out.
>
> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their castoffs.
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> Herb,
> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
> compound noun (a set phrase.)
> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
> "before she left for Paris."
> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
> doesn't mean the same thing.
> >
>
> Craig,
>>
>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>> other lexical categories.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>> reference) is the last one.
>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>> forever."
>>
>> Craig>
>>
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>
>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>>> has yet to be created.
>>>
>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>>
>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>>
>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>>
>>> tj
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>>>
>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>>>
>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>>>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>>> interface at:
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>>> interface
>>> at:
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>>
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE8821CEMAILBACKEND0_--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:27:15 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
> "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
> all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
> "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
> don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
> about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
> my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
> that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>
>
>> Herb,
>
>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
>
>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
>
>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
>
>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>
>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>
>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>
>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>
>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
>
>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>
>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>
>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>
>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>
>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>
>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>
>> "before she left for Paris."
>
>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>
>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>
>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> Craig,
>
>>>
>
>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>
>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>
>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>
>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>
>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
>>>
>
>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>
>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>
>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>
>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>
>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>
>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>
>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>
>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>
>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>
>>> other lexical categories.
>
>>>
>
>>> Herb
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>>
>
>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>
>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>
>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>
>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>
>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>
>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>
>>> reference) is the last one.
>
>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
>
>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>
>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>
>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>
>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>
>>> forever."
>
>>>
>
>>> Craig>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>
>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>
>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>
>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>
>>>> has yet to be created.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>
>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>
>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>
>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>
>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> tj
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>
>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>
>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>> following?:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>
>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>
>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>
>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Thank you,
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>>> interface at:
>
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>> interface
>
>>>> at:
>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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> and select "Join or leave the list"
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 14:41:23 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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A wise question, Grasshopper.
Modern English "nigh," "near," and "next" represent the reflexes of an Old English positive nçah, comparative near, and superlative nîehst that served as both adjectives and adverbs. They gradually became independent forms and were replaced in Late Middle English by the forms nigh/nigher/nighest and near/nearer/nearest, formed by analogical leveling.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did "next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than
> for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a
> superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of
> millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say
> "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be
> careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living"
> if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
> agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It
>> wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs
>> are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>
>
>> Herb,
>
>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
>
>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people,"
>> which
>
>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange
>> to
>
>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>
>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>
>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>
>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>
>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
>
>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>
>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>
>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>
>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>
>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>
>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>
>> "before she left for Paris."
>
>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>
>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>
>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> Craig,
>
>>>
>
>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>
>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>
>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>
>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>
>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
>>>
>
>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>
>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>
>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>
>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>
>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>
>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>
>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>
>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>
>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>
>>> other lexical categories.
>
>>>
>
>>> Herb
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>>
>
>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>
>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>
>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>
>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>
>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>
>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>
>>> reference) is the last one.
>
>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in
>>> the
>
>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>
>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>
>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>
>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill
>>> brush
>
>>> forever."
>
>>>
>
>>> Craig>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
>>>> "It
>
>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>
>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>
>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush
>>>> that
>
>>>> has yet to be created.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>
>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>
>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative
>>>> pronoun
>
>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>
>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> tj
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>
>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>
>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>> following?:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>
>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>
>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>
>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Thank you,
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>>> interface at:
>
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>> interface
>
>>>> at:
>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>> interface
>
>> at:
>
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>
>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
>
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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A wise question, Grasshopper.
Modern English "nigh," "near," and "next" represent the reflexes of an Old English positive nçah, comparative near, and superlative nîehst that served as both adjectives and adverbs. They gradually became independent forms and were replaced in Late Middle English by the forms nigh/nigher/nighest and near/nearer/nearest, formed by analogical leveling.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did "next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
>
>
>
> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
> Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than
> for "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a
> superlative goes all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of
> millennia older than "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>
>
>
> Herb
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>
>
> Herb,
>
> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say
> "I don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>
> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>
> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be
> careful about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
> however hyperbolic that might be.
>
> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
> prominence.
>
> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living"
> if my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>
> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
> agree that "last" has some of its history intact.
>
>
>
> Craig
>
> Craig,
>
>>
>
>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>
>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It
>> wouldn't
>
>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>
>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>
>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>
>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>
>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>
>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>> out.
>
>>
>
>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>
>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>
>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>
>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>
>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>
>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>
>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs
>> are
>
>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>> castoffs.
>
>>
>
>> Herb
>
>>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>
>
>> Herb,
>
>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
>
>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people,"
>> which
>
>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange
>> to
>
>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>
>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>
>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>
>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>
>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
>
>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>
>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>
>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>
>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>
>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>
>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>
>> "before she left for Paris."
>
>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>
>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>
>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>
>> >
>
>>
>
>> Craig,
>
>>>
>
>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>
>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>
>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>
>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>
>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>
>>>
>
>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>
>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>
>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>
>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>
>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>
>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>
>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>
>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>
>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>
>>> other lexical categories.
>
>>>
>
>>> Herb
>
>>>
>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
>>>
>
>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
>
>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>
>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>
>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>
>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>
>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>
>>> reference) is the last one.
>
>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in
>>> the
>
>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>
>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>
>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
>
>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill
>>> brush
>
>>> forever."
>
>>>
>
>>> Craig>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
>>>> "It
>
>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>
>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>
>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush
>>>> that
>
>>>> has yet to be created.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>
>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>
>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative
>>>> pronoun
>
>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>
>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
>>>>
>
>>>> tj
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>
>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>
>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>> following?:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>
>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>
>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>
>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Thank you,
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>>> interface at:
>
>>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>>> interface
>
>>>> at:
>
>>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>>
>
>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>
>>> interface
>
>>> at:
>
>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>
>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>>>
>
>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>>>
>
>>
>
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 13:47:25 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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Superlative form of OE "neah" from which we derive "nigh."
tj
On Wednesday 12/29/2010 at 1:32 pm, Craig Hancock wrote:
> So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where
> did
> "next" come in?
>
> Craig>
>
> Craig,
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
>> ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
>> superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to
>> German
>> FÃŒrst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older
>> than for
>> "last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative
>> goes
>> all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
>> "last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
>> To: [log in to unmask]
>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>
>>
>> Herb,
>>
>> It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to
>> say "I
>> don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
>>
>> The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
>>
>> That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be
>> careful
>> about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
>> possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
>> frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
>> great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
>> "rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
>> flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
>> you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
>> simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
>> collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
>> I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
>> however hyperbolic that might be.
>>
>> There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
>> relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
>> question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
>> or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
>> intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
>> prominence.
>>
>> One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant
>> "living" if
>> my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
>>
>> We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I
>> agree
>> that "last" has some of its history intact.
>>
>>
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> Craig,
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
>>
>>>
>>> what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
>>
>>>
>>> be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
>>
>>>
>>> investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
>>
>>>
>>> sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
>>
>>>
>>> sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
>>
>>>
>>> long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
>>
>>>
>>> sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
>>> out.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> "Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
>>
>>>
>>> not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
>>
>>>
>>> grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
>>
>>>
>>> the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
>>
>>>
>>> infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
>>
>>>
>>> /cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
>>
>>>
>>> arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
>>
>>>
>>> identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
>>> castoffs.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Herb
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>>
>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>>>
>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>>>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
>>
>>>
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>>
>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Herb,
>>
>>>
>>> I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last
>>> two
>>
>>>
>>> people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
>>
>>>
>>> is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
>>
>>>
>>> say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
>>
>>>
>>> ("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
>>
>>>
>>> "second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
>>
>>>
>>> compound noun (a set phrase.)
>>
>>>
>>> I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something
>>> like
>>
>>>
>>> "latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
>>
>>>
>>> chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
>>
>>>
>>> would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
>>
>>>
>>> would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
>>
>>>
>>> "Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
>>
>>>
>>> usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
>>
>>>
>>> "before she left for Paris."
>>
>>>
>>> In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
>>
>>>
>>> ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
>>
>>>
>>> doesn't mean the same thing.
>>
>>>
>>> >
>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Craig,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> other lexical categories.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Herb
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first,
>>>> second,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> (sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> reference) is the last one.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in
>>>> the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever"
>>>> is
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> forever."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Craig>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> has yet to be created.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> as "will" in front of it.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> tj
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
>>>>>> following?:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>
>>>
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>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
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>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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>>>>>
>>>>> and select "Join or leave the list"
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>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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Superlative form of OE "neah" from which we derive "nigh."
tj
On Wednesday 12/29/2010 at 1:32 pm, Craig Hancock wrote:
So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?
Craig>
Craig,
I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
FÃŒrst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
"last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
"last." It did, after all, come first and last last.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."
The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."
That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
"rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
however hyperbolic that might be.
There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
prominence.
One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."
We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
that "last" has some of its history intact.
Craig
Craig,
As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,
what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't
be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder
investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not
sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the
sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a
long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal
sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
out.
"Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,
not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent
grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of
the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not
infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of
/cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there
arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are
identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
castoffs.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Herb,
I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two
people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which
is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to
say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.
("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or
"second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a
compound noun (a set phrase.)
I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like
"latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the
chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"
would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,
would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".
"Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would
usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or
"before she left for Paris."
In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an
ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"
doesn't mean the same thing.
>
Craig,
You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this
example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative
polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed
out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the
sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.
"Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising
historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in
modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,
for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"
or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both
places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second
last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This
suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with
ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as
other lexical categories.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is
an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It
is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the
vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that
has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function
any differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.
and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.
Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,
and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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------=_SW_1193531759_1293652045_mpa=--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 16:57:11 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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TJ:
Sorry for the slow reply here; I avoided work email over the holidays. I'd certainly call the question use a main-clause example; I committed the old grammarian's sin of focusing on declaratives as the center of the linguistic universe. "Did he ever think of the answer" strikes me as raising more doubts about the person's success than does "Did he think of the answer," so I could at least argue the 'ever' is still adding an irrealis note (although that may be simply a result of the duration element 'ever' also adds).
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 5:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>
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>
>
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> interface at:
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 19:17:42 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I could diagram it as a complex sentence with an understood subject and an
understood verb (present tense of 'to be'); however, that proposal may be a
questionable as "Ouch." That sentence has an understood subject and
predicate.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 12:00 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
There are 9 messages totalling 915 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Independent clause or noun phrase (8)
2. Despain, Mastering the Challenge
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 05:35:31 -0800
From: Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:03:45 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
That would be my take on it. It's contains a relative clause with no subordinator. Because the sentence sounds as if it comes from an ad, it uses the sort of elliptical language common to ads and leaves out, as you point out, "It is" or "This is."
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Lavitt
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 8:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Independent clause or noun phrase
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 09:25:32 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
"The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486
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"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--001485f1dc166c2ab1049814a486--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 13:21:37 -0500
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Is "last" acting like a negative polarity item?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"
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Is “last” acting like a negative polarity item?
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C5BE88205EMAILBACKEND0_--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:18:59 -0500
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The "you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek your
> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an
> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
> independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:29:36 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
How about "ever" in a question?
Did he ever think of the answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
> Dick,
>
> It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I
> *think* they all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I
> wonder when he'll ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would
> have known this"); I recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on
> this, but I don't have it handy (coffee shop posting). I'm having
> trouble thinking of any examples in a main clause that don't sound
> archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He was ever the
> optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of people
> would count those as fossilized, though.
>
> --- Bill Spruiell
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Dick
> Veit
> Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
>
> "The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
> "you
> will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated) relative
> pronoun.
>
> I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong that it
> occurs
> without a negative only in relative clauses like this? "You won't ever
> need
> a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a grill brush."
>
> Dick
>
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your
>> collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The
>> last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there
>> is an
>> implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an
>> independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface
>> at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
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>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
How about "ever" in a question? Did he ever think of the
answer?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
3:25 pm, "Spruiell, William C" wrote:
Dick,
It shows up in some other subordinate constructions, although I *think* they
all have an element of negation or irrealis status ("I wonder when he'll
ever finish that" / "If he were ever there, he would have known this"); I
recall Quirk and Greenbaum having a section on this, but I don't have it handy
(coffee shop posting). I'm having trouble thinking of any examples in a
main clause that don't sound archaic, but there are candidate expressions "He
was ever the optimist/pessimist" and "It was ever thus." I suspect a lot of
people would count those as fossilized, though.
--- Bill Spruiell
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of
English Grammar on behalf of Dick Veit
Sent: Thu 12/23/2010 9:25 AM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
"The last grill brush" is a noun phrase, with an implied "it is." The
"you
will ever need" is a relative clause with a null (unstated)
relative
pronoun.
I'd like to hear more from ATEGers about "ever." Am I wrong
that it occurs
without a negative only in relative clauses like this?
"You won't ever need
a grill brush" is fine, but not *"You will ever need a
grill brush."
Dick
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Scott
Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Happy holidays all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and
occasionally seek your
collective opinion. Question: how does one parse
the following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I
could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The
last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is
an
implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and therefore not
an
independent clause. Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott
Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
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rchives/ateg.html
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ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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------=_SW_1952131558_1293143376_mpa=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 16:34:29 -0600
From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
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The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
"It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
brush that has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of "will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
differently than, say, "ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
> Happy holidays all.
>
> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>
> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>
> Thank you,
>
> Scott Lavitt
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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The last grill brush you will ever need.
Is this a
sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
"It is"
won't account for it as they have very different meaning
possible
references. One almost demands that the brush be
in the
vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
brush that
has yet to be created.
I'd take "ever" as a simple
adverb with the caveat that it must
precede the verb it
modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
as "will" in
front of it.
The understood "that" not stated in the
clause is a relative pronoun
that serves as the direct object of
"will need."
Is "last" anything more than a simple
adjective? Does it function any
differently than, say,
"ultimate"?
tj
On Thursday 12/23/2010 at
7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
Happy holidays
all.
I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally
seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?:
The last grill brush you will ever need.
I could see this as an
independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and "The last grill brush" as the
DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems there is an implied "It is," making
the above a noun phrase, and therefore not an independent clause.
Thoughts?
Thank you,
Scott Lavitt
To join or leave this LISTSERV
list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_SW_1352010998_1293143669_mpa=--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 19:08:08 -0500
From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase
I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,
third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines
for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group
(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core
determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an
identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in
reference) is the last one.
I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the
continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can
negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."
Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is an
option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush
forever."
Craig>
The last grill brush you will ever need.
>
> Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or
> "It is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning
> possible references. One almost demands that the brush be
> in the vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a
> brush that has yet to be created.
>
> I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must
> precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such
> as "will" in front of it.
>
> The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun
> that serves as the direct object of "will need."
>
> Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function any
> differently than, say, "ultimate"?
>
> tj
>
>
>
> On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:
>> Happy holidays all.
>>
>> I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally seek
>> your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the following?:
>>
>> The last grill brush you will ever need.
>>
>> I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj. and
>> "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right. Seems
>> there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase, and
>> therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Scott Lavitt
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 18:26:22 -0800
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Despain, Mastering the Challenge
--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799
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Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of pleasant and
interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do it. He doesn't
know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do it, Eduard, do it. Don't
rant at me. Just do it.)
I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to send me a
definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to read 30
variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them look it up if they
want.
He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he drops Quirk's
name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for a definitive
statement? Quirk won't help.
Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you. Who has Quirk
handy?
.brad.23dec10.
________________________________
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
Brad,
This is my example:
"I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rumblings for
too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] that they were not
worth my time."
This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense (Aspect) and of the
(Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al. in "A
Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in "Aspect."
Eduard
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Eduard is peevish because I asked him, after a number of pleasant and interesting exchanges, to define the past perfect. He can't do it. He doesn't know what it is. That makes him cross. (If you can do it, Eduard, do it. Don't rant at me. Just do it.)
I then asked him to ask each person in one of his classes to send me a definition, without him explaining what it is. I don't want to read 30 variations on what he tells them. Make it open book. Let them look it up if they want.
He won't do that either, so he sends out a spleen-gram, and he drops Quirk's name as a smoke screen but Quirk won't help him. How's that for a definitive statement? Quirk won't help.
Please prove me wrong, Eduard. Maybe the others will help you. Who has Quirk handy?
.brad.23dec10.
From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 7:41:35 AM
Subject: Re: Bruce Despain, Mastering the Challenge
Brad,
This is my example:
"I HAD BEEN READING [ Past Perfect Tense Progressive Aspect] your rumblings for too long before I DECIDED [ Absolute Simple Past Tense ] that they were not worth my time."
This is a proper use of the Progressive Past Perfect Tense (Aspect) and of the (Absolute) Simple Past Tense on the time axis. See Quirk et al. in "A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language," and Comrie in "Aspect."
Eduard
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--0-1377937128-1293157582=:99799--
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 22 Dec 2010 to 23 Dec 2010 (#2010-230)
***********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 15:55:41 -0600
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary
--0015177fd00c37cdef0498bbdeab
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And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other
exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students
join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students
to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they
sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has
expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on
the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated
list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating
anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations
that make for successful listserv groups:
- All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality levels of
professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding postings.
*Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette*
Postings should exhibit the following:
1. Maturity and tact
2. Audience-appropriate language
3. Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
1. Libelous
2. Defamatory
3. Obscene
4. Pornographic
5. Threatening
6. Invasive of privacy
7. Abusive
8. Illegal
9. Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
10. Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
11. Create liability
12. Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor
messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would
require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay
away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with
ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial
spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to
encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv groups:
- All those who use this list
are expected to maintain quality levels of professionalism, ethics,
decorum and civility regarding postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
- Maturity and tact
- Audience-appropriate language
- Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
- Libelous
- Defamatory
- Obscene
- Pornographic
- Threatening
- Invasive of privacy
- Abusive
- Illegal
- Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
- Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
- Create liability
- Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0015177fd00c37cdef0498bbdeab--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 17:25:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Patricia Lafayllve <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thank you, John, for this email.
I've been on a number of public, unmoderated lists, and the key difference
in behavior among them comes directly from the list members. It works, too
- it's just a matter of forming the habit, really. I am certain this list
can be one, too.
-patty
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 4:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other
exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students
join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students
to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they
sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has
expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on
the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated
list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating
anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations
that make for successful listserv groups:
* All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality levels
of professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
1. Maturity and tact
2. Audience-appropriate language
3. Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
1. Libelous
2. Defamatory
3. Obscene
4. Pornographic
5. Threatening
6. Invasive of privacy
7. Abusive
8. Illegal
9. Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
10. Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
11. Create liability
12. Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor
messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would
require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay
away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with
ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial
spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to
encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave
the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Thank you, John, for this email.
I’ve been on a number of public, unmoderated lists, and the key difference in behavior among them comes directly from the list members. It works, too – it’s just a matter of forming the habit, really. I am certain this list can be one, too.
-patty
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Dews-Alexander
Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 4:56 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every other exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv groups:
- All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality levels of professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
- Maturity and tact
- Audience-appropriate language
- Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
- Libelous
- Defamatory
- Obscene
- Pornographic
- Threatening
- Invasive of privacy
- Abusive
- Illegal
- Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
- Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
- Create liability
- Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't have to expand the policies to encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CBA90F.C467C650--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 22:50:04 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi John (and all!),
I have been sitting on a question that I'm not sure has anything to do
with grammar, but I know that many people on this list will be able to
answer my question.
Maybe this new question will lead to an interesting discussion.
I teach middle school, and my students have asked me why in writing
from the 1700s, something that looks like an f is sometimes used in
place of an s. What is that letter called? What is the rule about
when that letter was used? How did it come to be used? And why isn't
it used now?
I have the same questions about the symbol that connects a c to a t in
writing from the same time period.
Thanks for your information. I'll share with my students when we get
back together on Monday.
Jan
Quoting John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>:
And the discussion group gets smaller. We lose members after every
other exchange it seems these days.
Please, everyone, moderate thyself. We often have entire classes of
students join our discussion group; these students, ranging from high
school students to graduate students, often observe only and deserve
better than what they sometimes get from us. I've been contacted by
more than one teacher who has expressed disappointment in the amount of
unprofessional behavior seen on the list at times. I explain to them
the nature of a public, unmoderated list with the hope that they will
understand. However, without stating anything as a "rule," let me share
some common precepts and expectations that make for successful listserv
groups:
* Â All those who use this list are expected to maintain quality
levels of professionalism, ethics, decorum and civility regarding
postings.
Postings and Etiquette/Netiquette
Postings should exhibit the following:
* Maturity and tact
* Audience-appropriate language
* Cogency when possible
Avoid posting that can be reasonably described as any of the following:
* Libelous
* Defamatory
* Obscene
* Pornographic
* Threatening
* Invasive of privacy
* Abusive
* Illegal
* Constitute or encourage a criminal offense
* Violate the rights of any individual, group or entity
* Create liability
* Copyright infringements
These seem like no-brainers, right? We currently do not moderate or
censor messages nor do we impose consequences for violations. To do so
would require interpretation of content, which is subjective. We've
tried to stay away from this. Please allow us to continue to do so. I
will be working with ATEG's leadership to review policies for blatant
offenses such as commercial spam and pornography. I truly hope we don't
have to expand the policies to encompass more than that.
John Alexander
ATEG
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
"Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Fri, 31 Dec 2010 23:39:09 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Reminder Regarding Discussion List Etiquette
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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