On Wednesday 12/29/2010 at 1:32 pm, Craig Hancock wrote:

      So the first shall be first and the last shall be last. Where did
"next" come in?

Craig>

Craig,

I agree that "last" behaves like an ordinal in the ad, an odd sort of
ordinal though since, like "first," it's an ordinal that began as a
superlative and grammaticalized. "First," of course, is cognate to German
    Fürst "prince." However, its superlative status is much older than for
"last," which is around in Middle English. "First" as a superlative goes
all the way back to Proto-Germanic, a couple of millennia older than
"last." It did, after all, come first and last last.

Herb

-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock
Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase

Herb,

      It looks like I mistyped at the start of my post. I meant to say "I
don't think people would normally say "the two last people on earth."

The normal (or default) would be "the last two people on earth."

      That's not to say your point isn't well made. We need to be careful
about "normal." And "the two last people on earth is certainly
possible," which means it can act as an adjective. On the other hand,
frequency is a very important part of meaning, and it does create a
great deal of stability in the system. I don't think of these as
"rules" so much because, as you say, we have a great deal of
flexibility. But I would stand by my analysis of "the last grill brush
you will ever need" as using "last" as an ordinal numeral. If it was
simply "the latest" grill brush, the whole force of the ad would
collapse. They are advertising durability and satisfaction. They want,
I think, to imply that you will never need or want another one,
however hyperbolic that might be.

      There may not be a normal in intonation, but there are stable
relations between meaning and form. I can intone a statement as a
question by a rise in pitch. We can signal a word group as restrictive
or non-restrictive through intonation. In general, given is not
intonationally stressed, but new information is given tonic
prominence.

      One of my favorite old words is "quick", which once meant "living" if
my memory is correct. And "kind," which was once closer to "natural."

We do have those remnants: "the quick and the dead"; "in kind." I agree
that "last" has some of its history intact.

Craig

Craig,

As you're aware from both your functional and your cognitive work,

what we would normally say depends entirely on situation. It wouldn't

be hard to come up with a suitable context, say, a murder

investigation trying to narrow down who saw the victim last. I'm not

sure there is a "normal" in sentence structure, at least not in the

sense I think you're using the term. As Susan Schmerling put it a

long time ago in her dissertation on intonation, "There is no normal

sentence intonation." ToBI analyses of English intonation bear that
out.

"Last," of course, behaves both as an ordinal and as a superlative,

not surprising given its origin as a superlative and subsequent

grammaticalization and reduction followed by the later development of

the doublet "latest." Words carry their history with them and not

infrequently upset our analyses because of it. Think of

/cleave/clove/cloven/cleft/cleaved and all the specializations there

arising from an OE strong verb and an OE weak verb. The two verbs are

identical now, but they've left the lexicon littered with their
castoffs.

Herb

-----Original Message-----

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock

Sent: Friday, December 24, 2010 11:15 AM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase

Herb,

      I don't think we would normally say "She was one of the last two

people to see him alive." Normal would be "the last two people," which

is the usual order for ordinal and cardinal numerals. It is strange to

say "the last second man" because there can only be one second man.

("This would differ if you meant something like "second baseman" or

"second violinist"; last would be Ok there because they act like a

compound noun (a set phrase.)

      I think there are occasions when "last" would mean something like

"latest." The "last report" and "latest report" both leave open the

chance of a new report, though there are contexts in which "last"

would be a final element. "The last words she spoke," for example,

would mean something very different from "the latest words she spoke".

"Latest" would tend to translate to "most recent" and last would

usually be qualified with a point in time: "before she died" or

"before she left for Paris."

      In the sentence in question, I think "last" is acting like an

ordinal numeral. "This is the latest grill brush she will ever need"

doesn't mean the same thing.

      >

Craig,

You're right that "last" is not a negative polarity item. In this

example, "ever" is the negative polarity item. Many negative

polarity items occur in irrealis contexts as well, as Bruce pointed

out, and it's the "will" that provides the irrealis context in the

sentence we're talking about. I got the function of "last" wrong.

"Last," however, behaves like the superlative it is, arising

historically from OE "latost." "Last" and "latest" are a doublet in

modern English and "latest" developed in the 15th c. We can say,

for example, "She was one of the two last people to see him alive"

or, as in the film title, "The Last Man on Earth." These are both

places where an number word cannot occur. We can get "the second

last man on earth" but not "the last second man on earth." This

suggests that "last" is an adjective. Semantically it overlaps with

ordinals and also can as an ordinal, just as nouns can function as

other lexical categories.

Herb

-----Original Message-----

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar

[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock

Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 7:08 PM

To: [log in to unmask]

Subject: Re: Independent clause or noun phrase

       I would classify "last" as an ordinal numeral: first, second,

third...last. Different grammars differ in where they draw the lines

for the determiners, but ordinal numbers are often in that group

(sometimes called postdeterminers since they come after the core

determiners like "a," "the," "this," "his" and so on). It has an

identifying function. The one we are talking about (the one in

reference) is the last one.

     I don't think it has negative polarity, just the sense that in the

continuing list of "grill brushes" this is the final one. You can

negate it: this is not the last grill brush you will ever need."

     Maybe "ever" doesn't extend as much as never because "forever" is

an option (whereas "fornever" is not). "You will need the grill brush

forever."

Craig>

The last grill brush you will ever need.

Is this a sentence at all? To assume an understood "This is" or "It

is" won't account for it as they have very different meaning

possible references. One almost demands that the brush be in the

vicinity for reference. The other might well reference a brush that

has yet to be created.

I'd take "ever" as a simple adverb with the caveat that it must

precede the verb it modifies. Perhaps it also needs something such

as "will" in front of it.

The understood "that" not stated in the clause is a relative pronoun

that serves as the direct object of "will need."

Is "last" anything more than a simple adjective? Does it function

any differently than, say, "ultimate"?

tj

On Thursday 12/23/2010 at 7:45 am, Scott Lavitt wrote:

Happy holidays all.

I've been a member of this listserve for years and occasionally

seek your collective opinion. Question: how does one parse the
following?:

The last grill brush you will ever need.

I could see this as an independent clause, with "you" as the subj.

and "The last grill brush" as the DO, but that doesn't seem right.

Seems there is an implied "It is," making the above a noun phrase,

and therefore not an independent clause. Thoughts?

Thank you,

Scott Lavitt

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