Sorry to the list for feeding the trolls. I (had thought) thought this was a private message from Brad, and didn't realize he (had sent) sent it to everyone. ~~~~~ THIS is why I persist. People, even ATEG people, DO put 'had' in front of past tense verbs. It's an inch deep but a mile wide. It's everywhere. As long as learned ATEG professionals persist, unwittingly, I shall persist as well. "feeding the trolls", Karl? Et tu, Brute? I should thank you, Brute, for proving my point so splendidly. Yes. Thank you. I hope some of the others are paying attention. .brad.06dec10. ________________________________ From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Mon, December 6, 2010 12:47:40 PM Subject: Re: common irregular verbs Sorry to the list for feeding the trolls. I had thought this was a private message from Brad, and didn't realize he had sent it to everyone. On 12/6/2010 9:37 AM, Karl Hagen wrote: > While it is true that there's a lot of mindless copying among grammar > books, that's not the issue here. Neither is the complexity of > Huddleston and the others. Huddleston and Pullum is a reference grammar. > It is _not_ intended for children, so there's no reason for them to > simplify. > > Anyway, complaining about the problems that grammar books for school > children have is a red herring. You still need to show that there's > something wrong with the technical understanding of the perfect in > standard grammar references like Huddleston and Pullum. Then we can talk > about how to present it to children. > > And no, there is nothing the matter with the paradigms you quoted. They > are correct, no matter what you say. Find me a book that says otherwise. > Until you can, your opinion has no weight. It's your bald assertion > against the entire weight of all the grammatical authorities. > > > On 12/5/2010 7:38 PM, Brad Johnston wrote: >> You sent this back to me without comment. It reflects much of what's >> wrong with <many> most grammar texts. Much of grammar text content is >> mindless, careless repetition of things that don't make sense, as this >> one demonstrates. There's a lot of plagiarism in the grammar trade. One >> grammar text author told me what he wrote had to be right because he >> copied it from another text. I believe him because he lifted things from >> me, word for word -- things he clearly doesn't understand but used >> anyway. >> /Some Common Irregular Verbs, page 37./ >> // >> /Past begin choose drink eat grow hide/ >> /Present began chose drank ate grew hid/ >> /Past Participle begun chosen drunk eaten grown hidden/ >> ** >> /There's a little something the matter with them, don't you think? Look >> carefully or you'll miss it./ >> // >> There's a LOT the matter with them and y ou did miss it. >> Is it any wonder kids hate grammar when so much of it either doesn't >> make sense, like what you see above, or is presented in a way that is >> unnecessarily convoluted and complicated, e.g, Huddleston, Wardhaugh, >> et al? >> .brad.05dec10. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/