Part of the continuing (evidently perpetual nattering about whether something is or
is not past perfect) clears up fairly easily if it is accepted that more than one way
to express the same notion exists.  The questions posed to Terry make the point
for me.  The first contains a past perfect verb; the second contains a simple past
verb.  My sense is that a native speaker of English is not going to be confused
by either.

tj


On Tuesday 02/15/2011 at 4:56 pm, Brad Johnston wrote:
Terry,
 
What does this mean?  ".. their beloved row house where they had lived for 67 years"?
 
What does this mean?  ".. their beloved row house where they lived for 67 years"?
 
.br-had.tues.15feb11.

From: Terry Lynn Irons <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 5:02:25 PM
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect

Brad,

Why is "where they had lived for 67 years" not a past perfect form?  What is it?

Fraternally,
Terry
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:08 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect

tj,

Here's another example from yesterday's WashPost: "And it was before they had to leave their beloved row house in Upper Darby, Pa., where they had lived for 67 years."

All past perfects are formed by had + a past participle
but all occurrences of had plus a past participle are not past perfects.

Look for them. They're everywhere.

.brad.15feb11.

~~~~~~~

From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Mon, February 14, 2011 10:05:43 AM
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect

tj,

A corpus makes it easy for you but another easy way is to just look at what passes you by.

From yesterday's Washington Post Magazine, "He still speaks with sorrow about the first two: a girl he met just after graduating college who, it turned out, was still seeing her ex-boyfriend; and a woman he met on a Metro platform with whom he started "this really intense, amazing, passionate thing", but who eventually told him she had "found Christ and was gonna be celibate until she got married".

She "had found" Christ? Relative to what? The Third Crusade?
Look around. They're everywhere.

.br-had.valentinesday.2011.

Meanwhile, please tell me ...

What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on the board for them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? "The past perfect is ..."

_______________________________
From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]>
To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 2:25:25 PM
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect

tj,

Click on corpus.byu.edu<http://corpus.byu.edu/> and enter 'had' plus the past participle of 'shared' or 'include' or 'use' (to take three verbs from your message) and you will see some. I know they're there without looking because it is a common occurrence.

Meanwhile, please tell me ...

What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on the board for them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? "The past perfect is ..."

Thanks for participating.

.br-had.sun.13feb11.

________________________________
From: T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 11:13:49 AM
Subject: Re: On meanings of the past perfect

Brad,

As  you seem to have the corner on the meaning of "past perfect," perhaps  you
will share it with me.  In doing so, please include a sentence or two that use
"had + a past participle" that is not past perfect.

Happy Valentine's Day.

tj
~~~~~~~

On Saturday 02/12/2011 at 7:45 pm, Brad Johnston wrote:
Welcome, T.J.,

What is it? What is the past perfect? What would you write on the board for them to scribble into their notebooks and carry away when the bell rings? "The past perfect is ..."

Please, please, please don't say "the past perfect is had + a past participle". If you want to get the jump on understanding it, note that all past perfects are formed by had + a past participle but all occurrences of had + a past participle are not past perfects.

You need a different source than the one you used below, which only got you one right out of three.

Thanks for stopping by.

.brad.sat.12feb11.

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