Just as a point of historical interest, my grammar teacher in 1948 told our 3rd-grade class that, in a series of adjectives, if 'and' could be placed between the adjectives, then a comma was mandatory: She used the example "a large and hot and fudge sundae." She did insist on the so-called 'serial' comma. I always used, "Her favorite meal would include spinach, beets, chocolate and anchovy pizza." Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of Craig = Hancock Sent: Sun 2/27/2011 2:44 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: grammar question--adjective series and commas =20 Bruce, In reworking your examples in my mind, I find it easy to find = versions that seem just as natural as the version you present as the most natural. Everything might depend on what you were looking for in a rug. For the color scheme and size of a room, it might be most important that it be large and green. For an employee, you might want someone smart and reliable and not care so much about age or size. You mention that the work is being done in Italy. Do they propose it for Italian? For all languages? What would the basis of that be? What would they say about a language like Spanish, where the adjectives come after the noun? The usual explanation for English is that we have pre-deteminers, determiners, post-deteminers, true adjectives, noun modifiers, the head noun, and then postnominal groups (like prepositional phrases.) Dick gives a good example of an adjective noun combination (sweet tooth) that constitutes a set phrase, but for the most part, those are noun noun combinations, like ice cream or death wish or rest stop. Traditional grammar often lists "movable or coordinate" adjectives as requiring commas, the test being whether you can change the order without significantly altering meaning and whether it feels OK to put an "and" between them. Generally, this is true of the true adjectives (the truly scalar terms). Of course, they want to call everything that modifies a noun an adjective, which makes it necessary to come up with a sub-category. You leave me wondering how they tested for this scale and whether it might be language or culture specific and whether it would hold true no matter what it was you were describing. Craig Scott, Some recent work in this area (in Italy) calls the natural = order > of adjectives in the noun phrase its cartography. The grammarian = tries > different orders to determine the natural order of classification. = Hence > you might try to make a maximal stretch of adjectives like: She sold = her > a certain expensive charming large square ancient green hand woven > Armenian carpet at auction. In this noun phrase there is a ranking = of > the eight features: origin, style, color, age, shape, size, appeal, = and > value. The the possible adjective orders map to a scalar value of = rank. > Such adjectives as classify measures, e.gg., capacity, weight, volume, > length, width, etc., might all share the same rank as size. Examples = of > some even farther from these eight are: sixteenth, equal, similar, = chief, > which come first (opposite order as given). The investigator tries > different orders for pairs of adjectives and determines what the most > natural ranking is a step at a time. When two adjectives fall in the = same > rank, they characterize it as belonging to that particular class. If = the > order is not natural, or the adjectives fall into the same rank, then = a > comma is required; sort of like a pause to adjust the thinking = relative to > their classification. In my paraphrastic grammar I call this = adjective > accumulation. The structure of the noun phrase is recursively > left-branching. There is a similar phenomenon with the natural = ordering > of adverbials, but in a right-branching structure. Just for fun I = made up > a very long sentence with both kinds of accumulation (not advisable, = but > kinda fun): "The unique $46,000 92 degree hot uncomfortable large = 5-foot > by 5-foot by 15-foot two ton almost 12 year old broken-down square = open > deep dark green American steel Hummer was driven flawlessly by a > professional at 6 miles an hour and 3 thousand revolutions per minute = for > a dozen miles on Route 66 from Albuquerque to the junction twice for = four > hours on Monday from 8:00 a. m. till noon." Bruce > > --- [log in to unmask] wrote: > > From: Dick Veit > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: grammar question--adjective series and commas > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 23:05:07 -0500 > > Scott, > > Consider the difference between these two: > my troublesome, sweet sister my troublesome sweet toothIn 1, both > "troublesome" and "sweet" modify "sister." My sister is troublesome = but > sweet. > In 2, "sweet" modifies "tooth," and "troublesome" modifies "sweet = tooth." > My sweet tooth is troublesome. > > When two or more adjectives (as in 1) modify a noun in parallel, they = are > separated by commas. When one adjective modifies a phrase that = contains an > adjective (as in 2), no comma is used. > > Other examples: > a tall, dark, handsome stranger [tall & dark & > handsome] stranger > the best inexpensive Italian restaurant the [best [inexpensive > [Italian restaurant]]] > Dick > > On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Scott Woods wrote: > Dear List, The following phrases seem different to me: my > beautiful gray Persian cat my large black leather coat my large > gray Persian cat my beautiful black leather coat my old sad mangy > cat my sweet old Irish grandmother my beautiful Irish linen > tablecloth Some of these need commas between some of the adjectives, > but others seem not to. Do you agree? How can this be explained? > Thanks, Scott Woods > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or > leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or = leave > the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web = interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:38:45 -0800 From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Cartography (was RE: grammar question--adjective series and commas) Q3JhaWcsIA0KDQpDYXJ0b2dyYXBoeSBpcyBhIHJlc2VhcmNoIHByb2dyYW0gd2l0aGluIHRoZSBQ cmluY2lwbGVzIGFuZCBQYXJhbWV0ZXJzIGZyYW1ld29yayBvZiBzeW50YWN0aWMgdGhlb3J5LiBJ dCBlbWVyZ2VkIGFuZCBnYWluZWQgaXRzIG5hbWUgaW4gYSBzZXJpZXMgb2YgY29sbG9xdWlhIGhl bGQgaW4gSXRhbHkgaW4gdGhlIGxhdGUgOTBzIGFuZCBiZWNhbWUgd2lkZWx5IGtub3duIHRocm91 Z2ggdGhlIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0aHJlZSB2b2x1bWVzIG9mIHRoZSBPVVAg c2VyaWVzIFRoZSBDYXJ0b2dyYXBoeSBvZiBTeW50YWN0aWMgU3RydWN0dXJlcyAoQ2lucXVlIDIw MDI7IEJlbGxldHRpIDIwMDRiOyBSaXp6aSAyMDA0YikuDQoNClRoaXMgaXMgZnJvbSBodHRwOi8v b25saW5lbGlicmFyeS53aWxleS5jb20vZG9pLzEwLjExMTEvai4xNzQ5LTgxOFguMjAxMC4wMDIw 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