Some more food for thought from englishforums.com - http://www.englishforums.com/English/CommaBeforeBecause/dznck/post.htm
 

Here's an example from Fowler's Modern English Usage:

I know he committed suicide, because his wife told me.

In this example, the comma lets readers know that I heard about the suicide from the wife. Without the comma, one might believe that the reason that the man decided to committ suicide was because his wife told me something. You may also find a comma before because if the adverbial clause that follows is parenthetical. Here's another example from Fowler's:

Hed have to watch his stepnot to make a hash of things, because of over-anxiety.

I might write it without the comma, but I suppose the comma helps illustrate that the over-anxiety is more of an afterthought and not the driving force. However, I'm a bit confused myself-- 

Question: does because of perform a different role than just plain because? That is, I've seen it referred to as a preposition instead of subordinating conjunction. Could this be part of the reason there's a comma before the because? And what about when because begins a sentence? I've read that most introductory adverbial dependent clauses (i.e., clauses that answer the why question--because clauses) should not have a comma after the initial phrase, but Fowler's provides this sentence as a legitimate example of because: Because of the deterioration of the sugar in the blood it was decided, after consultation, to carry out an exchange blood transfusion.

Why?

-Andrew



Geoff Layton


 
> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:43:45 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Martha's _Rhetorical Grammar_ offers a solution here. She points out that a comma places focus on the word in front of it (in speech, "the pause," the slight raise in pitch and accent). In this case it preserves some focus for the end of the main clause, which would receive end forcus if the because clause was moved to the front of the sentence. I always enjoyed telling my students that the comma between a main clause and a subordinate one following it was optional -- trust your ear -- it's a rhetorical choice.
>
> Dave Sawyer
> Dept. of English (Retired)
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
>
> I would suspect the writer is not making any conscious decision at all
> about syntactic analysis (e.g., deciding that "because" is a
> coordinator). More likely, he is punctuating on feel, and inserted the
> comma because he hears a slight pause in his mental reading of the
> sentence and wants to convey that pause.
>
> On 4/13/2011 4:16 AM, T. J. Ray wrote:
> > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate
> > conjunction. My understanding is that
> > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a
> > comma. I just
> > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's
> > attention, folks who evidently
> > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I
> > saw the MSS.
> >
> > Thanks for your time.
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:
> >> Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because"
> >> functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating.
> >> Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the
> >> independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because"
> >> only?
> >>
> >> I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses
> >> the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_SW_1934288502_1302709117_mpa=" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_SW_1934288502_1302709117_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent > clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place > such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are > no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a > sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence > structure does appear awkward. > > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important > for me. > > > > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]>, > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence > the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of > coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" > as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by > the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. > Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with > a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I > saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" > functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. > Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the > independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" > only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses > the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with > commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Punctuation Question > > I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: > > "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax > is > inherent and incomplete on its own." > > My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about > his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. > > T. J. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third > parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join > or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1934288502_1302709117_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Punctuation Question

I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following:

"This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax
is
inherent and incomplete on its own."

My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about
his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome.

T. J.

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132)
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1934288502_1302709117_mpa=-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:47:22 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_426cdb4a-a31b-422a-aa34-a9da50e0fc8c_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_426cdb4a-a31b-422a-aa34-a9da50e0fc8c_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And here is the much-derided Mr. Strunk's take on the problem (http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html): Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction. If a dependent clause, or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a comma, precedes the second independent clause, no comma is needed after the conjunction. The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is still one chance of escape. Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction. If a dependent clause, or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a comma, precedes the second independent clause, no comma is needed after the conjunction. The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is still one chance of escape. Although Strunk doesn't address the issue directly, what if his sentence had read: "The situation is perilous, because if we aren't prepared to act promptly, there will be no chance of escape." It seems to me that the comma does belong before the "because" here even though "because" can be construed as restrictive. Geoff Layton > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:43:45 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Martha's _Rhetorical Grammar_ offers a solution here. She points out that a comma places focus on the word in front of it (in speech, "the pause," the slight raise in pitch and accent). In this case it preserves some focus for the end of the main clause, which would receive end forcus if the because clause was moved to the front of the sentence. I always enjoyed telling my students that the comma between a main clause and a subordinate one following it was optional -- trust your ear -- it's a rhetorical choice. > > Dave Sawyer > Dept. of English (Retired) > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:35 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > I would suspect the writer is not making any conscious decision at all > about syntactic analysis (e.g., deciding that "because" is a > coordinator). More likely, he is punctuating on feel, and inserted the > comma because he hears a slight pause in his mental reading of the > sentence and wants to convey that pause. > > On 4/13/2011 4:16 AM, T. J. Ray wrote: > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > > conjunction. My understanding is that > > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a > > comma. I just > > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > > attention, folks who evidently > > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I > > saw the MSS. > > > > Thanks for your time. > > > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > >> Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" > >> functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. > >> Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the > >> independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" > >> only? > >> > >> I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses > >> the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. > >> > >> ________________________________________ > >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > >> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]] > >> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Punctuation Question > >> > >> I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: > >> > >> "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax > >> is > >> inherent and incomplete on its own." > >> > >> My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about > >> his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. > >> > >> T. J. > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface at: > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >> and select "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface at: > >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > >> and select "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > > "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_426cdb4a-a31b-422a-aa34-a9da50e0fc8c_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And here is the much-derided Mr. Strunk's take on the problem (http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html):
 

Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction.
 
If a dependent clause, or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a comma, precedes the second independent clause, no comma is needed after the conjunction.
 
The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is still one chance of escape.

Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction. If a dependent clause, or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a comma, precedes the second independent clause, no comma is needed after the conjunction.

 

The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is still one chance of escape.

 
Although Strunk doesn't address the issue directly, what if his sentence had read:
 
"The situation is perilous, because if we aren't prepared to act promptly, there will be no chance of escape."
 
It seems to me that the comma does belong before the "because" here even though "because" can be construed as restrictive.
 
Geoff Layton


 
> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:43:45 -0500
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Martha's _Rhetorical Grammar_ offers a solution here. She points out that a comma places focus on the word in front of it (in speech, "the pause," the slight raise in pitch and accent). In this case it preserves some focus for the end of the main clause, which would receive end forcus if the because clause was moved to the front of the sentence. I always enjoyed telling my students that the comma between a main clause and a subordinate one following it was optional -- trust your ear -- it's a rhetorical choice.
>
> Dave Sawyer
> Dept. of English (Retired)
> ________________________________________
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:35 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
>
> I would suspect the writer is not making any conscious decision at all
> about syntactic analysis (e.g., deciding that "because" is a
> coordinator). More likely, he is punctuating on feel, and inserted the
> comma because he hears a slight pause in his mental reading of the
> sentence and wants to convey that pause.
>
> On 4/13/2011 4:16 AM, T. J. Ray wrote:
> > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate
> > conjunction. My understanding is that
> > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a
> > comma. I just
> > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's
> > attention, folks who evidently
> > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I
> > saw the MSS.
> >
> > Thanks for your time.
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:
> >> Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because"
> >> functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating.
> >> Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the
> >> independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because"
> >> only?
> >>
> >> I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses
> >> the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.
> >>
> >> ________________________________________
> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:49:24 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_78da9245-325f-4750-8800-a9207ce5c345_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_78da9245-325f-4750-8800-a9207ce5c345_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Punctuation Question I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax is inherent and incomplete on its own." My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. T. J. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_78da9245-325f-4750-8800-a9207ce5c345_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Punctuation Question

I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following:

"This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax
is
inherent and incomplete on its own."

My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about
his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome.

T. J.

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_78da9245-325f-4750-8800-a9207ce5c345_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000003060804060400070508" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000003060804060400070508 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as *marked theme* in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't > see that beginning a > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my > students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the > sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many > students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not > incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]>, > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" > (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list > of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of > "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been > succeeded by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. > J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded > with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these > before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a > subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating > clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make > this mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set > off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Punctuation Question > > I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: > > "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax > is > inherent and incomplete on its own." > > My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about > his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. > > T. J. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to > the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to > third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------000003060804060400070508 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite"> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:32:00 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_6b7322c7-1109-4211-9123-fbb993712868_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_6b7322c7-1109-4211-9123-fbb993712868_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_6b7322c7-1109-4211-9123-fbb993712868_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_6b7322c7-1109-4211-9123-fbb993712868_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:58:27 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E7FFFSEMAILfacult_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E7FFFSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff, As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the "because" clause really does matter. Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the "because" clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E7FFFSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Geoff,

 

As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the “because” clause really does matter.

 

Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the “because” clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E7FFFSEMAILfacult_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 13:10:59 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000703040905070709030005" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000703040905070709030005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff, My apologies for making my point seem like a disagreement. It wasn't intended that way, but I can see why that reading was likely. Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. The reverse is equally true. It can be awkward NOT to start a sentence with because. I think I gave an example that works, at least for me. "Because you were late, we lost everything." There are almost an infinite number of examples for subordinate clauses, including those beginning with "because," in sentence opening position. "When it rains, it pours." "It pours when it rains" doesn't have that power. "For lack of a nail, we lost the horse. For lack of a horse, we lost the war." Reversed, it loses its power. (These are prepositional phrases, but they work in the same way.) I have no idea why "because" was ever singled out for prohibition. I suspect it's because of the tendency toward sentence fragments, but I don't think even that is grounded in any kind of research. This reminds me of the "rule" against the passive. Students sometimes write very awkward sentences, and when you ask about it, they say the computer told them their original (passive) version was "wrong." The point I was trying to make, no doubt awkwardly, is that opening a sentence with a subordinate clause, including those headed by "because," is often highly congruent with the author's purposes. Awkwardness is, almost by definition, conflicting messages between meaning and form. Peace. You have been making some nice contributions to this discussion. I was trying to add to that. Craig On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But > you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the > point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with > examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are > awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many > more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's > advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I > was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point > out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence > with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we > lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were > late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of > information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to > my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as *marked theme* in > systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. > They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the > sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on > context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear > the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," > dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical > system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of > syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning > connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students > don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how > you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on > the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," > not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be > considered awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I > don't see that beginning a > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my > students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the > sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, > many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While > it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]> , > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" > (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the > list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that > the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has > largely been succeeded by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf > of T. J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a > coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be > preceded with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the > committee's attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these > before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than > a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating > clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he > make this mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are > set off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or > leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's > web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join > or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------000703040905070709030005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff,
    My apologies for making my point seem like a disagreement. It wasn't intended that way, but I can see why that reading was likely.
   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. The reverse is equally true. It can be awkward NOT to start a sentence with because. I think I gave an example that works, at least for me. "Because you were late, we lost everything." There are almost an infinite number of examples for subordinate clauses, including those beginning with "because," in sentence opening position. "When it rains, it pours." "It pours when it rains" doesn't have that power.  "For lack of a nail, we lost the horse. For lack of a horse, we lost the war." Reversed, it loses its power. (These are prepositional phrases, but they work in the same way.)  I have no idea why "because" was ever singled out for prohibition. I suspect it's because of the tendency toward sentence fragments, but I don't think even that is grounded in any kind of research.
   This reminds me of the "rule" against the passive. Students sometimes write very awkward sentences, and when you ask about it, they say the computer told them their original (passive) version was "wrong." The point I was trying to make, no doubt awkwardly, is that opening a sentence with a subordinate clause, including those headed by "because," is often highly congruent with the author's purposes. Awkwardness is, almost by definition, conflicting messages between meaning and form.
    Peace. You have been making some nice contributions to this discussion. I was trying to add to that.

Craig

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite"> Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]"> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------000703040905070709030005-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:28:43 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_c8fbd150-0a3c-4434-8d53-e26fb26ad445_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_c8fbd150-0a3c-4434-8d53-e26fb26ad445_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marshall - I NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T MATTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is there about my post that people are getting? All I'm asking for are examples of sentences where using "because" to start a sentence is, indeed, awkward. This to me was the import of Edmonds' post. I can't believe there aren't any! Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:58:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the because clause really does matter. Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the because clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_c8fbd150-0a3c-4434-8d53-e26fb26ad445_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marshall -
 
I NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T MATTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is there about my post that people are getting? All I'm asking for are examples of sentences where using "because" to start a sentence is, indeed, awkward. This to me was the import of Edmonds' post. I can't believe there aren't any!
 
 
Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:58:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff,

 

As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the because clause really does matter.

 

Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the because clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_c8fbd150-0a3c-4434-8d53-e26fb26ad445_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:31:22 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_0154b867-c06c-4309-a83a-6af582bcc3a3_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_0154b867-c06c-4309-a83a-6af582bcc3a3_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_0154b867-c06c-4309-a83a-6af582bcc3a3_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]> Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_0154b867-c06c-4309-a83a-6af582bcc3a3_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:21:37 +0200 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Anthony Shkaidy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Interested in doing a Skype chat with Finland? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_1e0f1ef6-9440-4e52-af0f-4d81a74a5157_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_1e0f1ef6-9440-4e52-af0f-4d81a74a5157_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike Thanks for the invitation. I am a South African English teacher who is specifically interested in how non-native speakers are experiencing English in their home countries. Your idea sounds great and I would like to participate in future Skype chats (if any). I will however give this one a pass as I have a heavy schedule this week. Thanks and please keep me posted. Kind regards Anthony Shkaidy Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:42:34 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Interested in doing a Skype chat with Finland? To: [log in to unmask] Good morning from Helsinki! I am normally silent as I am not teaching grammar now but thought I would post this... Interested in doing a Skype chat with Finland? I have a group of 20 1st year English translation students from the University of Helsinki. Mostly girls in early 20s but some older students. Their English is GREAT so that is not a problem. We were supposed to have a Skype class tomorrow with St Petersburg but the teacher there got sick. I am looking for people (any individual) who can do a Skype class with us Thursday 14 April at like 14.30 15.30 Helsinki time. Ideally I can find 7 or 8 people. We start at 14.00 to iron out technical problems and start chat around 14.30 15.00. You (or yall) would add the group name (HKIgroup1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) at like 14.15 to account for technical problems. Then start chatting with 2 - 4 students. General topics nothing special. Our connection is good so the audio - video works fine from our end. I think the time there is like 6 or 7 am but you can check that from your end. Interested? Got friends or students who are up early? This can lead to other forms of cooperation in the future if you are interested. Hope I get some more people to join! Cheers, Mike [log in to unmask] join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_1e0f1ef6-9440-4e52-af0f-4d81a74a5157_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Mike
 
Thanks for the invitation. I am a South African English teacher who is specifically interested in how non-native speakers are experiencing English in their home countries. Your idea sounds great and I would like to participate in future Skype chats (if any). I will however give this one a pass as I  have a heavy schedule this week.
 
Thanks and please keep me posted.
 
Kind regards
Anthony Shkaidy
 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 01:42:34 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Interested in doing a Skype chat with Finland?
To: [log in to unmask]

Good morning from Helsinki!
I am normally silent as I am not teaching grammar now but thought I would post this...
Interested in doing a Skype chat with Finland?
I have a group of 20 1st year English translation students from the University of Helsinki. Mostly girls in early 20s but some older students. Their English is GREAT so that is not a problem. We were supposed to have a Skype class tomorrow with St Petersburg but the teacher there got sick.
I am looking for people (any individual) who can do a Skype class with us Thursday 14 April at like 14.30 15.30 Helsinki time. Ideally I can find 7 or 8 people.
We start at 14.00 to iron out technical problems and start chat around 14.30 15.00. You (or yall) would add the group name (HKIgroup1, 2, 3, 4, etc.) at like 14.15 to account for technical problems. Then start chatting with 2 - 4 students. General topics nothing special. Our connection is good so the audio - video works fine from our end. I think the time there is like 6 or 7 am but you can check that from your end. Interested? Got friends or students who are up early? This can lead to other forms of cooperation in the future if you are interested. Hope I get some more people to join! Cheers,

Mike

[log in to unmask]

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_1e0f1ef6-9440-4e52-af0f-4d81a74a5157_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 11:13:34 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Peter H. Fries" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary --00504502cc3957865204a0d0c44f Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --00504502cc3957864c04a0d0c44d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Hi all, Attached is a contribution that explores the use of commas to indicate the status of the information conveyed by a clause. I apologize for sending this as an attachment but the formatting is important. Peter On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Kari Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > The comma is not necessary because what follows is a dependent clause. > Kari Anderson > > -----Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: ----- > > To: [log in to unmask] > From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]> > Sent by: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar < > [log in to unmask]> > Date: 04/12/2011 06:10PM > Subject: Punctuation Question > > I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: > > "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax > is > inherent and incomplete on its own." > > My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about > his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. > > T. J. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > -- Peter H. Fries From December 20, 2010 to May 1, 2011 3661 N. Campbell Ave Box 290 Tucson AZ 85719 Phone: 520-529-0824 Cell: 989-400-3764 From May 1, 2011 to December 2011 Box 310 Mount Pleasant MI 48804 Phone: 989-644-3384 Cell: 989-400-3764 Email: [log in to unmask] Web page: > [among 'emeritus faculty'] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --00504502cc3957864c04a0d0c44d Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all,
Attached is a contribution that explores the use of commas to indicate the status of the information conveyed by a clause.
I apologize for sending this as an attachment but the formatting is important.
Peter

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Kari Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The comma is not necessary because what follows is a dependent clause.
Kari Anderson

-----Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> wrote: -----

To: [log in to unmask]
From: "T. J. Ray" < Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:17:06 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010607090107060101060208" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010607090107060101060208 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > Craig, > > All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it > awkward to start a sentence with because? > > Geoff > > */Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed/*. > > On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. > But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't > the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up > with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there > are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you > have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead > horse, let's advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what > I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to > point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start > a sentence with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, > we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you > were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece > of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with > meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as *marked theme* > in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in > speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage > structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness > would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you > hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete > thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a > grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the > heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the > grammar-meaning connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most > students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing > to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader > would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to > provide) as clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on > "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with > because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but > I don't see that beginning a > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link > the dependent clause to the independent clause. I > encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at > the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in > comma usage. However, many students want to begin a > sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the > sentence structure does appear awkward. > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That > is important for me. > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]> > , > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included > "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for > remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it > seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating > conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the > use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. > Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on > behalf of T. J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a > coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be > preceded with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the > committee's attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of > these before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes > that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction > rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate > most subordinating clauses that follow the independent > clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" > only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical > Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. > clauses are set off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join > or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the > list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------010607090107060101060208 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]" type="cite"> Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 
   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]"> Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]"> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------010607090107060101060208-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 19:38:39 +0100 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question (Strunk) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit A reference back to Geoffrey's quoting of 'the much-derided Strunk' who has argued, it seems, against a comma AFTER a co-ordinating conjunction followed by a subordinating one. (See Geoffrey's original email below). I feel I must align myself with 'the much-derided Strunk' in this case. In the case of a subordinate element (at Christensen's second level -- and, by the same token, before a third-level element subordinated to a second-level one), our vocal apparatus produces lower pitch in order to audibly-punctuate the lower status of the subordinated element. In the example given this is certainly the case with regard to 'if we are prepared to act promptly'. Try it and you will hear (though perhaps this is an Englishman's differentiating!). Therefore there should be a comma after 'but' to match this aural and grammatical level-distinction. 'But' undoubtedly goes with the second main clause 'there is still one chance of escape' and not with the conditional clause. With regard to the comma BEFORE the CO-ORDINATING conjunction, I would tend to offer the following advice, that, [COMMA!] if the subject in the two main clauses is the same, with the second subject being a pronoun, I would leave out the comma, thus: Jones went in before everyone else but he didn't notice what had happened. Whereas if the subject is a new one, a comma is required: Jones went in before everyone else, but Brown, actually the last to go in, was the one who noticed the change. Edmond Dr. Edmond Wright 3 Boathouse Court Trafalgar Road Cambridge CB4 1DU England Email: [log in to unmask] Website: http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/elw33/ Phone [00 44] (0)1223 350256 > > And here is the much-derided Mr. Strunk's take on the problem > (http://www.bartleby.com/141/strunk.html): > > The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is still one chance of escape. > > Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the > sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same > time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction. > > > > If a dependent clause, or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a > comma, precedes the second independent clause, no comma is needed after the > conjunction. > > > > > > > > The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is > still one chance of escape. > > Two-part sentences of which the second member is introduced by as (in the > sense of because), for, or, nor, and while (in the sense of and at the same > time) likewise require a comma before the conjunction. If a dependent clause, > or an introductory phrase requiring to be set off by a comma, precedes the > second independent clause, no comma is needed after the conjunction. > > > > > > > The situation is perilous, but if we are prepared to act promptly, there is > still one chance of escape. > > Although Strunk doesn't address the issue directly, what if his sentence had > read: > > > "The situation is perilous, because if we aren't prepared to act promptly, > there will be no chance of escape." > > It seems to me that the comma does belong before the "because" here even > though "because" can be construed as restrictive. > > Geoff Layton > > > >> Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 09:43:45 -0500 >> From: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question >> To: [log in to unmask] >> >> Martha's _Rhetorical Grammar_ offers a solution here. She points out that a >> comma places focus on the word in front of it (in speech, "the pause," the >> slight raise in pitch and accent). In this case it preserves some focus for >> the end of the main clause, which would receive end forcus if the because >> clause was moved to the front of the sentence. I always enjoyed telling my >> students that the comma between a main clause and a subordinate one following >> it was optional -- trust your ear -- it's a rhetorical choice. >> >> Dave Sawyer >> Dept. of English (Retired) >> ________________________________________ >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] >> On Behalf Of Karl Hagen [[log in to unmask]] >> Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 8:35 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question >> >> I would suspect the writer is not making any conscious decision at all >> about syntactic analysis (e.g., deciding that "because" is a >> coordinator). More likely, he is punctuating on feel, and inserted the >> comma because he hears a slight pause in his mental reading of the >> sentence and wants to convey that pause. >> >> On 4/13/2011 4:16 AM, T. J. Ray wrote: >>> I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate >>> conjunction. My understanding is that >>> "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a >>> comma. I just >>> wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's >>> attention, folks who evidently >>> don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I >>> saw the MSS. >>> >>> Thanks for your time. >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: >>>> Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" >>>> functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. >>>> Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the >>>> independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" >>>> only? >>>> >>>> I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses >>>> the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>> [[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of T. J. Ray [[log in to unmask]] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2011 8:10 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Punctuation Question >>>> >>>> I have a doctoral student who produces sentences like the following: >>>> >>>> "This quatrain cannot be read in isolation at all, because the syntax >>>> is >>>> inherent and incomplete on its own." >>>> >>>> My question is not a search for whatever he meant to say but is about >>>> his punctuation: the comma. Comments are welcome. >>>> >>>> T. J. >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >>> "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 14:48:04 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000407030909070605060404" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000407030909070605060404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter, Unfortunately, the list is set up to not allow attachments. If you send it to those who request it, please put me on the list. I thought of an example of awkwardly starting a sentence with because after my last posting. "Many people have been abandoning their homes. In part because their homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so." Compare: "Many people have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in part, because their homes are worth less than they owe." In this case, the awkwardness of the first version comes from the main clause being entirely given. The usual (expected) place for new meaning is at the end. Craig On 4/13/2011 2:13 PM, Peter H. Fries wrote: > Hi all, > Attached is a contribution that explores the use of commas to indicate > the status of the information conveyed by a clause. > I apologize for sending this as an attachment but the formatting is > important. > Peter > > On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Kari Anderson <[log in to unmask] > > wrote: > > The comma is not necessary because what follows is a dependent clause. > Kari Anderson > > -----Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > <[log in to unmask] > > wrote: ----- > > To: [log in to unmask] > From: "T. J. Ray" < > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------000407030909070605060404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Peter,
    Unfortunately, the list is set up to not allow attachments. If you send it to those who request it, please put me on the list.
    I thought of an example of awkwardly starting a sentence with because after my last posting.
   "Many people have been abandoning their homes. In part because their homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so."
   Compare:
    "Many people have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in part, because their homes are worth less than they owe."
   In this case, the awkwardness of the first version comes from the main clause being entirely given. The usual (expected) place for new meaning is at the end.

Craig

On 4/13/2011 2:13 PM, Peter H. Fries wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">Hi all,
Attached is a contribution that explores the use of commas to indicate the status of the information  conveyed by a clause.
I apologize for sending this as an attachment but the formatting is important.
Peter

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Kari Anderson <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The comma is not necessary because what follows is a dependent clause.
Kari Anderson

-----Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> wrote: -----
To: [log in to unmask]
From: "T. J. Ray" <

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------000407030909070605060404-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:09:57 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Crystal Edmonds <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=__Part85A96305.0__=" This is a MIME message. If you are reading this text, you may want to consider changing to a mail reader or gateway that understands how to properly handle MIME multipart messages. --=__Part85A96305.0__Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]> ( mailto:[log in to unmask] ), "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> ( mailto:[log in to unmask] ) wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=__Part85A96305.0__Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Description: HTML

Geoff and TJ,
I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask] type="cite"> Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 
   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]> Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
[log in to unmask]> TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=__Part85A96305.0__=-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:13:38 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E909FSEMAILfacult_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E909FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff, So sorry to insult your sensibilities. Perhaps another exclamation point would have made that clearer. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 1:29 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Marshall - I NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T MATTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What is there about my post that people are getting? All I'm asking for are examples of sentences where using "because" to start a sentence is, indeed, awkward. This to me was the import of Edmonds' post. I can't believe there aren't any! Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:58:27 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the "because" clause really does matter. Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the "because" clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E909FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Geoff,

 

So sorry to insult your sensibilities.

 

Perhaps another exclamation point would have made that clearer.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 1:29 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Marshall -
 
I NEVER SAID IT DIDN'T MATTER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is there about my post that people are getting? All I'm asking for are examples of sentences where using "because" to start a sentence is, indeed, awkward. This to me was the import of Edmonds' post. I can't believe there aren't any!
 
 
Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:58:27 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff,

 

As a trained rhetorician and linguist, I would say where you put the “because” clause really does matter.

 

Since the last position in the sentence is generally thought of as the most emphatic position, putting the “because” clause last emphasizes the cause; putting it first emphasizes the result of the cause.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 12:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61E909FSEMAILfacult_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F7061CABcmail104centralcm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F7061CABcmail104centralcm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crystal: "It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly" applies to pretty much any construction, I'd think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they're not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache ("Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?"). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F7061CABcmail104centralcm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F7061CABcmail104centralcm_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:19:03 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS? In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_963f6320-38a7-47d4-a669-4b0cb0daa3f7_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_963f6320-38a7-47d4-a669-4b0cb0daa3f7_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal: It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_963f6320-38a7-47d4-a669-4b0cb0daa3f7_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]


Crystal:

It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_963f6320-38a7-47d4-a669-4b0cb0daa3f7_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Because of you, our romance ha=". Rest of header flushed. From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1417422247-1302750638=:98013" --0-1417422247-1302750638=:98013 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Because of you, there's a song in my heart Because of you, our romance had its start Because of you, the sun will shine The moon and stars will say you're mine Forever and never to part I only live for your love and your kiss It's paradise to be near you like this Because of you, my life is now worthwhile And I can smile, because of you.   ________________________________ From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS? This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal: “It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From:Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question   Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly.    C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig >>>Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff,     Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton     I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?    I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.    Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.      I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig           On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?   Geoff     Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - >  >The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the >rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" >starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere >did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical >choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That >wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with >examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward >examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources >than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! > >  >You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying >to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address >that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? > >Geoff Layton > > >  > ________________________________ >Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 >From: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Punctuation Question >To: [log in to unmask] > >Geoff, and all, >    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost >everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since >losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems >smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints >of emphasis. > >    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause >grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional >grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping >off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. >Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > >    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to >grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as >useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it >oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it >leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the >grammar-meaning connection. > >   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should >work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing >alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate >how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to >provide) as clues. > > >Craig >   > >On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: >TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," >and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the >useage. > >Geoff Layton > > >  > ________________________________ >Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 >From: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Punctuation Question >To: [log in to unmask] > >Crystal, >Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that >beginning a >sentence with "Because" is incorrect. >  >tj > > >On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: >The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to >the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate >clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. >However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not >incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward.  > >  >Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me.  >  >  >  >C. Edmonds, Chair >Associate in Arts >English and Humanities >Robeson Community College >PO Box 1420 >Lumberton, NC 28359 >(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 >(910) 272-3328 (fax) >[log in to unmask] >RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning >A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message >>>><[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" >>>><[log in to unmask]> wrote: >Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in >the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); >but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in >English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." > >I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating >conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > >Dr. Seth Katz >Assistant Professor >Department of English >Bradley University > >________________________________ > >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray >Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > >I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  >My understanding is that > >"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  >I just >wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, >folks who evidently >don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the >MSS. > >Thanks for your time. > > > >On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > >Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions >as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student >punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this >way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? > >I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few >instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. > > >________________________________________ >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this >LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the >list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV >list, please visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the >list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/   E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1417422247-1302750638=:98013 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Because of you, there's a song in my heart
Because of you, our romance had its start
Because of you, the sun will shine
The moon and stars will say you're mine
Forever and never to part
I only live for your love and your kiss
It's paradise to be near you like this
Because of you, my life is now worthwhile
And I can smile, because of you.
 
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS?

This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]


Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1417422247-1302750638=:98013-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:39:38 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Because? Awkward? Nah In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase! Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah To: [log in to unmask] Because of you, there's a song in my heart Because of you, our romance had its start Because of you, the sun will shine The moon and stars will say you're mine Forever and never to part I only live for your love and your kiss It's paradise to be near you like this Because of you, my life is now worthwhile And I can smile, because of you. From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS? This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal: It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase!

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah
To: [log in to unmask]

Because of you, there's a song in my heart
Because of you, our romance had its start
Because of you, the sun will shine
The moon and stars will say you're mine
Forever and never to part
I only live for your love and your kiss
It's paradise to be near you like this
Because of you, my life is now worthwhile
And I can smile, because of you.
 
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS?

This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]


Crystal:

It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 08:32:51 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Because? Awkward? Nah In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060809030403010905030002" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060809030403010905030002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3ECWpN6015159 Geoff, I believe I gave an example in my reply to Peter. "People have been abandoning their homes. In part because their homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so." "People have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in part, because their homes are worth less than they owe." The first one seems awkward to me because the main clause is entirely given information. If YOU believe opening with a because clause creates awkwardness, why are you relying on us for examples? I believe that's what confused us (and frustrated you.) It's more an issue of discourse than of strict syntax. The above example works (for me) because decisions should fit the discourse situation. Given and new are part of that. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:39 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE > HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase! > > Geoff Layton > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah > To: [log in to unmask] > > Because of you, there's a song in my heart > Because of you, our romance had its start > Because of you, the sun will shine > The moon and stars will say you're mine > Forever and never to part > I only live for your love and your kiss > It's paradise to be near you like this > Because of you, my life is now worthwhile > And I can smile, because of you. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Sent:* Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS? > > This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is > missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except > Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be > awkward (*/_NOT_/* incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to > acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it > as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own > "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" > clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere > in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of > this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what > might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the > list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent > clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a > discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, > and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, > I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working. > > Geoff Layton > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Crystal: > > It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly > applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being > circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more > /frequently/ awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, > although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a > fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for > awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in > this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is > intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. > > --- Bill Spruiell > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Crystal Edmonds > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Geoff and TJ, > > I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the > conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a > awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.* /Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, > Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Geoff, > Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged > because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking > US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? > I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand > each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as > they are. Here we are as living proof. > Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with > "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they > don't fit the discourse purposes. > > I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an > attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well > motivated. > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig, > > All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it > awkward to start a sentence with because? > > Geoff > > /*Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed*/. > > On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. > But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't > the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up > with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there > are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you > have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead > horse, let's advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what > I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to > point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start > a sentence with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, > we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you > were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece > of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with > meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as *marked theme* > in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in > speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage > structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness > would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you > hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete > thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a > grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the > heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the > grammar-meaning connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most > students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing > to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader > would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to > provide) as clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," > not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be > considered awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I > don't see that beginning a > > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my > students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the > sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many > students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not > incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. > > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.* /Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]> > , > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" > (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list > of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of > "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been > succeeded by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. > J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded > with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these > before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a > subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating > clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make > this mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set > off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or > leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join > or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third > parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060809030403010905030002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3ECWpN6015159 Geoff,
I believe I gave an example in my reply to Peter.
"People have been abandoning their homes. In part because their homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so."
"People have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in part, because their homes are worth less than they owe."
The first one seems awkward to me because the main clause is entirely given information.
If YOU believe opening with a because clause creates awkwardness, why are you relying on us for examples? I believe that's what confused us (and frustrated you.)
It's more an issue of discourse than of strict syntax. The above example works (for me) because decisions should fit the discourse situation. Given and new are part of that.

Craig

On 4/13/2011 11:39 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite"> Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase!

Geoff Layton



Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah
To: [log in to unmask]

Because of you, there's a song in my heart
Because of you, our romance had its start
Because of you, the sun will shine
The moon and stars will say you're mine
Forever and never to part
I only live for your love and your kiss
It's paradise to be near you like this
Because of you, my life is now worthwhile
And I can smile, because of you.

From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS?

This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody(except Crystal and me) think thatbeginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems,as either anintroduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because"constructions,or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward"dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]


Crystal:

It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly.

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I thinkthe emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig








On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?

Geoff

Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -

The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - thatthe rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point.That wasn't the point.Instead, goback in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!

You point out that"awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out- let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig


On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I thinkthe emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward.

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me.

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060809030403010905030002-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:10:45 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Punctuation question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=-jb2dcd+G578ll/B13gji" --=-jb2dcd+G578ll/B13gji Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 It's not a question of "awkward." It's a question of cohesion. Is the "because" clause old information (i.e., given information, known to the reader) or is it new, the purpose of the sentence? Quite often the "because" information is the purpose of the sentence, so it belongs in the predicate--i.e., at sentence end. However, if it's the connection to what has gone before (given information), then it should not have the prominence that sentence-end provides. Martha Kolln To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=-jb2dcd+G578ll/B13gji Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

It's not a question of "awkward."  It's a question of cohesion.  Is the "because" clause old information (i.e., given information, known to the reader) or is it new, the purpose of the sentence? 

Quite often the "because" information is the purpose of the sentence, so it belongs in the predicate--i.e., at sentence end.  However, if it's the connection to what has gone before (given information), then it should not have the prominence that sentence-end provides. 

Martha Kolln


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --=-jb2dcd+G578ll/B13gji-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:22:00 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 (#2011-80) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I can say that the "pause = comma" that I was taught in 4th grade proved quite efficacious. I have no problem with beginning a sentence with a dependent clause and a comma. I explained to my students that a dependent clause beginning a sentence was punctuated with a comma but only nonrestrictive clauses had a comma when they followed the independent clause. I am waiting for the awkwardness. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 (#2011-80) There are 2 messages totalling 1319 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Because? Awkward? Nah (2) Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:39:38 -0500 From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Because? Awkward? Nah --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase! Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah To: [log in to unmask] Because of you, there's a song in my heart Because of you, our romance had its start Because of you, the sun will shine The moon and stars will say you're mine Forever and never to part I only live for your love and your kiss It's paradise to be near you like this Because of you, my life is now worthwhile And I can smile, because of you. From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS? This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal: It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad - I'm starting to feel as if I'm channeling you - CAN WE PLEASE HAVE SOME AWKWARDNESS! You've given us the well-turned phrase!

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 20:10:38 -0700
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Because? Awkward? Nah
To: [log in to unmask]

Because of you, there's a song in my heart
Because of you, our romance had its start
Because of you, the sun will shine
The moon and stars will say you're mine
Forever and never to part
I only live for your love and your kiss
It's paradise to be near you like this
Because of you, my life is now worthwhile
And I can smile, because of you.
 
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, April 13, 2011 9:19:03 PM
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question - NOW AWKWARDNESS?

This entire thread has become a scene out of a Kafka novel! What is missing here are some examples of awkwardness. Does anybody (except Crystal and me) think that beginning a sentence with "because" can be awkward (NOT incorrect - just awkward)? Nobody seems to want to acknowledge this point - or, as Bill does below - wants to dismiss it as a condition affecting all introductory dependent clauses. My own "automatic tagging program for awkwardness" tells me that "because" clauses cause unique problems, as either an introduction or elsewhere in the sentence. My question is now as it has been from the start of this frustrating conversation - does anybody have any examples of what might be called awkward "because" constructions, or now, since the list has apparently been expanded, any other "awkward" dependent clause constructions? Perhaps we should change the thread to a discussion of awkwardness - how is created, how can it be corrected, and how can it be avoided? Given the paucity of information so far, I'll go for intuitive judgments as nothing else seems to be working.

Geoff Layton


Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 23:12:08 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]


Crystal:

It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_9c7b7b11-91af-4e3b-8e07-d5544c603f03_-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 (#2011-80) ******************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 10:43:57 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EA51FSEMAILfacult_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EA51FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fellow Grammarians, One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn't just one punctuation system for all types of prose. Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do. Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Crystal: "It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly" applies to pretty much any construction, I'd think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they're not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache ("Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?"). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EA51FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes.

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated.

Craig

   
     





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig,

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation!
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all,
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis.
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule.
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues.

Craig
  

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote:

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas.

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EA51FSEMAILfacult_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 11:03:57 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Edgar Schuster <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7-216206501 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v936) --Apple-Mail-7-216206501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Marshall et al, Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West": "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter." And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark? In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon. As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had: Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause. And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences. Especially if they follow a question. Thanks, Marshall. Ed Schuster On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote: > Fellow Grammarians, > > One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there > isnt just one punctuation system for all types of prose. > > Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, > that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in > academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical > writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in > literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate > differently than we do. > > Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my > students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a > sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. > > Marshall > > > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] > ] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > Crystal: > > It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done > correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it > ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses > are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre > not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would > be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for > awkwardness? Anybody?). Given the danger of confirmation bias in > this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is > intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, > is. > > --- Bill Spruiell > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] > ] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds > Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > Geoff and TJ, > I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the > conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a > awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. > > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message > <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > Geoff, > Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged > because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are > asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing > something? > I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand > each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as > they are. Here we are as living proof. > Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with > "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if > they don't fit the discourse purposes. > > I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an > attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often > well motivated. > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > Craig, > > All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it > awkward to start a sentence with because? > > Geoff > > Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. > > On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. > But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the > point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with > examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are > awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have > many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, > let's advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I > was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to > point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a > sentence with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we > lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were > late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of > information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) > to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in > systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in > speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage > structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness > would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear > the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," > dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical > system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of > syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning > connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students > don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know > how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear > it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as > clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I > don't see that beginning a > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students > to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that > there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to > begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the > sentence structure does appear awkward. > > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > > > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask] > >, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence > the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of > coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" > as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded > by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. > J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded > with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before > I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a > subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses > that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this > mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set > off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave > this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third > parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-7-216206501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Marshall et al,

Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West":  "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter."
And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark?  In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon.
As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had:  Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause.  And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences.  Especially if they follow a question. 
Thanks, Marshall.

Ed Schuster

On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote:

Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isnt just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly applies to pretty much any construction, Id think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect theyre not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]
RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning
A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College
>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. 

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. 

Craig

    
      





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
Craig, 

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 
   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! 
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all, 
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. 
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. 
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. 

Craig 
   

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:
TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,
Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a
sentence with "Because" is incorrect.
 
tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:
The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 
 
Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 
 
 
 
C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz 
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that 
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: 

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. 

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Apple-Mail-7-216206501-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:39:48 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C6309104EEMAILBACKEND0_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C6309104EEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Awkward" is one of those terms we use to tell student writers that there's something wrong with their sentence, and we know how to fix it, but we can't tell them more precisely what makes it wrong. I too would like to see "awkward," as we use it in teaching writing, defined in terms that we all agree are meaningful. I agree with Martha and Craig that the problem of awkwardness is largely one of discourse, of given vs. new rather than of syntax. Consider the following passage, which makes use of passive rather than subordination to illustrate awkwardness. The hunter left his tree stand to follow a herd of deer he saw in the distance. As he approached them stealthily, he saw them browsing along the edge of a meadow where a bull also grazed. He moved to get a good shot, not noticing that the bull was now directly behind the herd. The hunter took aim at a large stag, but just as he fired a coyote spooked the herd and they scattered. (Choose one final sentence: The hunter shot the bull. The bull was shot by the hunter. The bull was shot.) Arguably they're all a bit awkward. "The hunter had shot the bull" might work better, but the problem is one of topic. "Hunter" is subject of the previous sentence, but the subject shifts to "herd" by the end of the second clause. Only a rewrite can straighten out the topic/focus problem. This will entail a change in syntax, but that change in syntax is contingent on the change in discourse function. Herb From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Marshall et al, Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West": "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter." And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark? In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon. As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had: Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause. And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences. Especially if they follow a question. Thanks, Marshall. Ed Schuster On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote: Fellow Grammarians, One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn't just one punctuation system for all types of prose. Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do. Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Crystal: "It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly" applies to pretty much any construction, I'd think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they're not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache ("Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?"). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C6309104EEMAILBACKEND0_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

“Awkward” is one of those terms we use to tell student writers that there’s something wrong with their sentence, and we know how to fix it, but we can’t tell them more precisely what makes it wrong.  I too would like to see “awkward,” as we use it in teaching writing, defined in terms that we all agree are meaningful.  I agree with Martha and Craig that the problem of awkwardness is largely one of discourse, of given vs. new rather than of syntax.

 

Consider the following passage, which makes use of passive rather than subordination to illustrate awkwardness.

 

The hunter left his tree stand to follow a herd of deer he saw in the distance.  As he approached them stealthily, he saw them browsing along the edge of a meadow where a bull also grazed.  He moved to get a good shot, not noticing that the bull was now directly behind the herd. The hunter took aim at a large stag, but just as he fired a coyote spooked the herd and they scattered.  (Choose one final sentence:  The hunter shot the bull.  The bull was shot by the hunter.  The bull was shot.) 

 

Arguably they’re all a bit awkward.  “The hunter had shot the bull” might work better, but the problem is one of topic.  “Hunter” is subject of the previous sentence, but the subject shifts to “herd” by the end of the second clause.  Only a rewrite can straighten out the topic/focus problem.  This will entail a change in syntax, but that change in syntax is contingent on the change in discourse function.

 

Herb

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Marshall et al,

 

Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West":  "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter."

And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark?  In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon.

As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had:  Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause.  And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences.  Especially if they follow a question. 

Thanks, Marshall.

 

Ed Schuster

 

On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote:



Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. 

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. 

Craig

    
      





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig, 

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! 
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all, 
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. 
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. 
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. 

Craig 
   

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz 
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that 
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: 

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. 

________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132)

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_0DDF38BA66ECD847B39F1FD4C801D5431C6309104EEMAILBACKEND0_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 13:25:54 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EB34FSEMAILfacult_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EB34FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ed, Thanks for your reply and the reference source you cited. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Marshall et al, Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West": "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter." And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark? In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon. As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had: Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause. And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences. Especially if they follow a question. Thanks, Marshall. Ed Schuster On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote: Fellow Grammarians, One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn't just one punctuation system for all types of prose. Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do. Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Crystal: "It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly" applies to pretty much any construction, I'd think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they're not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache ("Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?"). Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. --- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question Geoff and TJ, I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof. Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. Craig On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig, All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because? Geoff Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed. On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: Craig - The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"? Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Geoff, and all, The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection. We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. Craig On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage. Geoff Layton ________________________________ Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question To: [log in to unmask] Crystal, Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a sentence with "Because" is incorrect. tj On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. C. Edmonds, Chair Associate in Arts English and Humanities Robeson Community College PO Box 1420 Lumberton, NC 28359 (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 (910) 272-3328 (fax) [log in to unmask] RCC 4 R.E.A.L. Reading Engages Active Learning A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because." I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? Dr. Seth Katz Assistant Professor Department of English Bradley University ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Punctuation Question I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction. My understanding is that "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma. I just wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS. Thanks for your time. On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only? I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. ________________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EB34FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ed,

 

Thanks for your reply and the reference source you cited.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Marshall et al,

 

Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West":  "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter."

And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark?  In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon.

As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had:  Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause.  And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences.  Especially if they follow a question. 

Thanks, Marshall.

 

Ed Schuster

 

On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote:



Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. 

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. 

Craig

    
      





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig, 

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! 
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all, 
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. 
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. 
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. 

Craig 
   

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz 
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that 
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: 

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. 

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA61EB34FSEMAILfacult_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:27:25 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------080507020305050101060404" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------080507020305050101060404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit One problem with the recognition that punctuation is a personal matter is that it's then hard to distinguish between idiosyncratic and goofy. Like it or not, intonation is very important to English and makes a systematic contribution to the meaning of speech. Prosody is more than personal. One solution for me has been to ask students to recognize/identify standard practices. "Standard," of course, is not the same as "correct" and certainly not the same as "effective" in all instances. And it is certainly true that standard practices vary within discourse communities. But it certainly makes sense to look at typical uses for punctuation. I actually think that standard punctuation practices are the most functional aspect of traditional grammar. Telling students that punctuation is a personal matter may be true, but it should be a starting point and not an ending one. Language is a personal matter, but we share it with a wider world. We can play with expectations, but we can't change them. I think it's much easier to teach punctuation in the context of sentence construction (and discourse). Quite often, a punctuation problem is a syntax problem is a discourse problem. To do this well involves a rich metalanguage. Generally speaking, correcting a text and revising a text are different lenses, and grammar attention has too long been thought of as a correcting function. Meaning is everything, and meaning involves audience and purpose. The goal, as I see it, is to make conscious choices in relation to a significant purpose. It seems silly to call a sentence "correct" if it doesn't function well within its discourse context, but that has been the rule for grammar as long as I can remember. It's a personal matter to the extent that you don't care about meaning or audience or effect. Craig On 4/14/2011 1:25 PM, Myers, Marshall wrote: > > Ed, > > Thanks for your reply and the reference source you cited. > > Marshall > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Edgar Schuster > *Sent:* Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Marshall et al, > > Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: > An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West": > "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter." > > And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol > for a question mark? In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper > part of a colon. > > As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the > nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had: Its Prologue starts with an > "If"-clause. And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing > for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences. Especially > if they follow a question. > > Thanks, Marshall. > > Ed Schuster > > On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote: > > > > Fellow Grammarians, > > One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there > isn't just one punctuation system for all types of prose. > > Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, > that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in > academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical > writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in > literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate > differently than we do. > > Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my > students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a > sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. > > Marshall > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]*On Behalf Of*Spruiell, William C > *Sent:*Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM > *To:*[log in to unmask] > *Subject:*Re: Punctuation Question > > Crystal: > > "It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly" > applies to pretty much any construction, I'd think; it ends up being > circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are > more/frequently/awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they're not, > although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a > fun headache ("Anybody got an automatic tagging program for > awkwardness? Anybody?"). Given the danger of confirmation bias in > this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is > intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. > > --- Bill Spruiell > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]]*On Behalf Of*Crystal Edmonds > *Sent:*Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM > *To:*[log in to unmask] > *Subject:*Re: Punctuation Question > > Geoff and TJ, > > I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the > conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a > awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask] > >, Craig Hancock > <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > Geoff, > Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged > because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking > US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? > I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand > each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as > they are. Here we are as living proof. > Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with > "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they > don't fit the discourse purposes. > > I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an > attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well > motivated. > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig, > > All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it > awkward to start a sentence with because? > > Geoff > > *//*/*Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed*/. > > On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. > But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't > the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up > with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there > are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you > have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead > horse, let's advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what > I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to > point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start > a sentence with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From:[log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To:[log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, > we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you > were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece > of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with > meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as*marked theme*in > systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in > speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage > structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness > would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you > hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete > thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a > grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the > heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the > grammar-meaning connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most > students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing > to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader > would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to > provide) as clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," > not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be > considered awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From:[log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To:[log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I > don't see that beginning a > > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my > students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the > sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many > students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not > incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. > > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in > message<[log in to unmask]> > , > "Katz, Seth"<[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" > (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list > of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of > "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been > succeeded by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. > J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To:[log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded > with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these > before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a > subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating > clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make > this mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set > off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or > leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join > or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/To join > or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select "Join > or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third > parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at:http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site athttp://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------080507020305050101060404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit      One problem with the recognition that punctuation is a personal matter is that it's then hard to distinguish between idiosyncratic and goofy. 
   Like it or not, intonation is very important to English and makes a systematic contribution to the meaning of speech. Prosody is more than personal.
    One solution for me has been to ask students to recognize/identify standard practices. "Standard," of course, is not the same as "correct" and certainly not the same as "effective" in all instances. And it is certainly true that standard practices vary within discourse communities. But it certainly makes sense to look at typical uses for punctuation.
   I actually think that standard punctuation practices are the most functional aspect of traditional grammar. Telling students that punctuation is a personal matter may be true, but it should be a starting point and not an ending one. Language is a personal matter, but we share it with a wider world. We can play with expectations, but we can't change them.
   I think it's much easier to teach punctuation in the context of sentence construction (and discourse). Quite often, a punctuation problem is a syntax problem is a discourse problem. To do this well involves a rich metalanguage.
   Generally speaking, correcting a text and revising a text are different lenses, and grammar attention has too long been thought of as a correcting function. Meaning is everything, and meaning involves audience and purpose. The goal, as I see it, is to make conscious choices in relation to a significant purpose. It seems silly to call a sentence "correct" if it doesn't function well within its discourse context, but that has been the rule for grammar as long as I can remember. It's a personal matter to the extent that you don't care about meaning or audience or effect.
   
Craig

On 4/14/2011 1:25 PM, Myers, Marshall wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">

Ed,

 

Thanks for your reply and the reference source you cited.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Marshall et al,

 

Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West":  "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter."

And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark?  In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon.

As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had:  Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause.  And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences.  Especially if they follow a question. 

Thanks, Marshall.

 

Ed Schuster

 

On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote:



Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. 

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. 

Craig

    
      





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig, 

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! 
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all, 
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. 
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. 
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. 

Craig 
   

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz 
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that 
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: 

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. 

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------080507020305050101060404-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 19:38:57 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Article of potential interest Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F706B9C2cmail103centralcm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F706B9C2cmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The following may be of interest to some list members - it's a recent Language Log post by Pullum, "Would a linguist always grade your writing A+". The title's a bit unfortunate, since P. really only discusses mechanics, and thus might give the impression that that's the only thing a linguist would evaluate in an essay, but I'd chalk that down simply to a desire for a catchy title. The first three items discussed, by the way, are punctuation issues. http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3084 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F706B9C2cmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

The following may be of interest to some list members – it’s a recent Language Log post by Pullum, “Would a linguist always grade your writing A+”.  The title’s a bit unfortunate, since P. really only discusses mechanics, and thus might give the impression that that’s the only thing a linguist would evaluate in an essay, but I’d chalk that down simply to a desire for a catchy title. The first three items discussed, by the way, are punctuation issues.

 

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=3084

 

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F706B9C2cmail103centralcm_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 14:25:42 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Punctuation Question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PERJViBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6VmVyZGFuYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsgZm9udC1zaXplOjEw cHQ7Ij48RElWPkhlcmIsPC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPiZuYnNwOzwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5Ib3cgYWJvdXQg bm9uZSBvZiB0aGUgYWJvdmUuJm5ic3A7IEluc3RlYWQsIHRyeSwgIkhpcyBzaG90IGhpdCBpdHMg bWFyay4iJm5ic3A7IFRoaXMgYXZvaWRzIHRoZSB3aG9sZSBxdWVzdGlvbiBvZiB0cnlpbmcgdG8g c2VsZWN0IHRoZSB0b3BpYyBmcm9tIHRoZSBub3VuIHBocmFzZXMgb2YgdGhlIHByZXZpb3VzIHNl bnRlbmNlLiZuYnNwOyBUaGUgImp1c3QgYXMgaGUgZmlyZWQiIGlzIHdoYXQgaXMgdXAgaW4gdGhl 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<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------060709040200030905090804" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060709040200030905090804 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3FCbog7001173 To me, "His shot hit its mark" would not tell us which "mark" it hit. Since he was aiming at the stag, my assumption would be that the mark was his intended target, the stag. The whole passage sets us up for an accidental target, the bull. Herb's point, that you need to rewrite the preceding sentences for maximum effect, is right on. When I'm working with students, or even in my own writing, I often come across these paint yourself into a corner problems. You start looking for a final word or final phrase, but the perfect one doesn't exist. If you go back and rewrite with the whole meaning in mind, many other solutions suggest themselves. The coyote spooks the herd, stag included. The stag moves at the moment he pulls the trigger. The unspooked bull (why should a bull worry about a coyote?) is an accidental victim. Craig On 4/14/2011 9:23 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote: > > Bruce, > > Yours is obviously a better choice than any of those I listed. My > example was a bit forced; it’s one I’ve used in the context of > teaching the structure and function of passive voice. I would also > have my students work in small groups to write better passages with an > assigned final sentence to have them deal with roles of topic and > focus in choosing sentence structures. > > Herb > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Bruce Despain > *Sent:* Thursday, April 14, 2011 5:26 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Herb, > > How about none of the above. Instead, try, "His shot hit its mark." > This avoids the whole question of trying to select the topic from the > noun phrases of the previous sentence. The "just as he fired" is what > is up in the air, as it were. > > Bruce > > > --- [log in to unmask] wrote: > > From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask] > > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:39:48 -0400 > > “Awkward” is one of those terms we use to tell student writers that > there’s something wrong with their sentence, and we know how to fix > it, but we can’t tell them more precisely what makes it wrong. I too > would like to see “awkward,” as we use it in teaching writing, defined > in terms that we all agree are meaningful. I agree with Martha and > Craig that the problem of awkwardness is largely one of discourse, of > given vs. new rather than of syntax. > > Consider the following passage, which makes use of passive rather than > subordination to illustrate awkwardness. > > The hunter left his tree stand to follow a herd of deer he saw in the > distance. As he approached them stealthily, he saw them browsing > along the edge of a meadow where a bull also grazed. He moved to get > a good shot, not noticing that the bull was now directly behind the > herd. The hunter took aim at a large stag, but just as he fired a > coyote spooked the herd and they scattered. (Choose one final > sentence: The hunter shot the bull. The bull was shot by the > hunter. The bull was shot.) > > Arguably they’re all a bit awkward. “The hunter had shot the bull” > might work better, but the problem is one of topic. “Hunter” is > subject of the previous sentence, but the subject shifts to “herd” by > the end of the second clause. Only a rewrite can straighten out the > topic/focus problem. This will entail a change in syntax, but that > change in syntax is contingent on the change in discourse function. > > Herb > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Edgar Schuster > *Sent:* Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Marshall et al, > > Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: > An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West": > "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter." > > And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol > for a question mark? In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper > part of a colon. > > As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the > nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had: Its Prologue starts with an > "If"-clause. And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing > for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences. Especially > if they follow a question. > > Thanks, Marshall. > > Ed Schuster > > On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote: > > Fellow Grammarians, > > One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there > isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose. > > Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, > that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in > academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical > writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in > literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate > differently than we do. > > Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my > students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a > sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles. > > Marshall > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Spruiell, William C > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Crystal: > > “It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” > applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being > circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more > /frequently/ awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, > although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a > fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for > awkwardness? Anybody?”). Given the danger of confirmation bias in > this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is > intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is. > > --- Bill Spruiell > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Crystal Edmonds > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: Punctuation Question > > Geoff and TJ, > > I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the > conjunction "because." It is not incorrect but it can create a > awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask] > >, Craig Hancock > <[log in to unmask] > wrote: > > Geoff, > Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not > "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered > awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged > because it is awkward to begin sentences that way. Now you are asking > US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something? > I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand > each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as > they are. Here we are as living proof. > Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with > "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they > don't fit the discourse purposes. > > I would be interested to see examples. My earlier ones were an > attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well > motivated. > > Craig > > > > > > > > > On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig, > > All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it > awkward to start a sentence with because? > > Geoff > > *//Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed//*. > > On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > Craig - > > The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - > that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on > whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the > point. Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a > sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. > But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't > the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up > with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there > are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you > have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead > horse, let's advance the conversation! > > You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what > I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to > point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start > a sentence with "because"? > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Geoff, and all, > The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, > we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you > were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece > of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with > meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. > Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the > main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as *marked > theme* in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally > marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the > mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. > Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal > rule. > Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an > alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you > hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete > thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a > grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the > heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the > grammar-meaning connection. > We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The > punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most > students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing > to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader > would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to > provide) as clues. > > Craig > > > On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote: > > TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," > not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be > considered awkward depending on the useage. > > Geoff Layton > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Crystal, > > Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I > don't see that beginning a > > sentence with "Because" is incorrect. > > tj > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote: > > The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the > dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my > students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the > sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many > students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not > incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. > > Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is > important for me. > > C. Edmonds, Chair > Associate in Arts > English and Humanities > Robeson Community College > PO Box 1420 > Lumberton, NC 28359 > (910) 272-3700 ext. 3362 > (910) 272-3328 (fax) > [log in to unmask] > > *RCC 4 R.E.A.L.*/Reading Engages Active Learning/ > > A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College > > >>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message > <[log in to unmask]> > , > "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" > (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list > of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of > "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been > succeeded by the use of "because." > > I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a > coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help? > > Dr. Seth Katz > Assistant Professor > Department of English > Bradley University > > ________________________________ > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. > J. Ray > Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Punctuation Question > > > I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate > conjunction. My understanding is that > "because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded > with a comma. I just > wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's > attention, folks who evidently > don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these > before I saw the MSS. > > Thanks for your time. > > > > On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: > > Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that > "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a > subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating > clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make > this mistake with "because" only? > > I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ > addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set > off with commas. > > ________________________________________ > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar To join or > leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join > or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/To > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at > http://ateg.org/ > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > E-mail correspondence to and from this address may be subject to the > North Carolina Public Records Law and may be disclosed to third > parties by an authorized state official. (NCGS.Ch.132) > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060709040200030905090804 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3FCbog7001173     To me, "His shot hit its mark" would not tell us which "mark" it hit. Since he was aiming at the stag, my assumption would be that the mark was his intended target, the stag. The whole passage sets us up for an accidental target, the bull.
   Herb's point, that you need to rewrite the preceding sentences for maximum effect, is right on.
   When I'm working with students, or even in my own writing, I often come across these paint yourself into a corner problems. You start looking for a final word or final phrase, but the perfect one doesn't exist. If you go back and rewrite with the whole meaning in mind, many other solutions suggest themselves.
   The coyote spooks the herd, stag included. The stag moves at the moment he pulls the trigger. The unspooked bull (why should a bull worry about a coyote?) is an accidental victim.

Craig
   

On 4/14/2011 9:23 PM, STAHLKE, HERBERT F wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">

Bruce,

 

Yours is obviously a better choice than any of those I listed.  My example was a bit forced; it’s one I’ve used in the context of teaching the structure and function of passive voice.  I would also have my students work in small groups to write better passages with an assigned final sentence to have them deal with roles of topic and focus in choosing sentence structures.

 

Herb

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 5:26 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Herb,

 

How about none of the above.  Instead, try, "His shot hit its mark."  This avoids the whole question of trying to select the topic from the noun phrases of the previous sentence.  The "just as he fired" is what is up in the air, as it were. 

 

Bruce


--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:39:48 -0400

“Awkward” is one of those terms we use to tell student writers that there’s something wrong with their sentence, and we know how to fix it, but we can’t tell them more precisely what makes it wrong.  I too would like to see “awkward,” as we use it in teaching writing, defined in terms that we all agree are meaningful.  I agree with Martha and Craig that the problem of awkwardness is largely one of discourse, of given vs. new rather than of syntax.

 

Consider the following passage, which makes use of passive rather than subordination to illustrate awkwardness.

 

The hunter left his tree stand to follow a herd of deer he saw in the distance.  As he approached them stealthily, he saw them browsing along the edge of a meadow where a bull also grazed.  He moved to get a good shot, not noticing that the bull was now directly behind the herd. The hunter took aim at a large stag, but just as he fired a coyote spooked the herd and they scattered.  (Choose one final sentence:  The hunter shot the bull.  The bull was shot by the hunter.  The bull was shot.) 

 

Arguably they’re all a bit awkward.  “The hunter had shot the bull” might work better, but the problem is one of topic.  “Hunter” is subject of the previous sentence, but the subject shifts to “herd” by the end of the second clause.  Only a rewrite can straighten out the topic/focus problem.  This will entail a change in syntax, but that change in syntax is contingent on the change in discourse function.

 

Herb

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Edgar Schuster
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2011 11:04 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Marshall et al,

 

Reminds me of a quote from M. B. Parkes, author of "Pause and Effect: An Introduction to the History of Punctuation in the West":  "Punctuation is and always has been a personal matter."

And don't you love the fact that the semicolon in Greek is a symbol for a question mark?  In Greek, our semicolon represented by the upper part of a colon.

As for introductory subordinate clauses (in English), I opened the nearest-at-hand non-fiction book I had:  Its Prologue starts with an "If"-clause.  And it's not unusual in the best contemporary writing for authors to punctuate "because" clauses as sentences.  Especially if they follow a question. 

Thanks, Marshall.

 

Ed Schuster

 

On Apr 14, 2011, at 10:43 AM, Myers, Marshall wrote:

 

Fellow Grammarians,

One of the most frustrating part of teaching writing is that there isn’t just one punctuation system for all types of prose.

Various academic disciplines punctuate different ways. Add to that, that punctuation in the popular media differs even from those in academia. In fact, even within English as a discipline, technical writers punctuate somewhat differently from people writing in literature. To make it even more complex, the British punctuate differently than we do.

Indeed, punctuation rules are very confusing. I try to make my students are of this fact, so except for clarifying meaning in a sentence, I tolerate a wide variety of punctuation styles.

Marshall

  

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 7:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Crystal:

“It can create an awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly” applies to pretty much any construction, I’d think; it ends up being circular. The issue is whether initial because-clauses are more frequently awkward than non-initial ones. I suspect they’re not, although getting some kind of outside measurement of that would be a fun headache (“Anybody got an automatic tagging program for awkwardness? Anybody?”).  Given the danger of confirmation bias in this kind of endeavor, one thing we probably should not rely on is intuitive judgments about how often-misused a construction, or item, is.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crystal Edmonds
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2011 4:10 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question

 

Geoff and TJ,

I am not discouraging students to begin a sentence with the conjunction "because."  It is not incorrect but it can create a awkwardly structured sentence if not done correctly. 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 2:17 PM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Geoff,
    Now I'm confused. Here's what I replied to:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton

    I thought you were saying that "because" might be discouraged because it is awkward to begin sentences that way.  Now you are asking US for examples to back up your point. Or am I missing something?
   I have a friend who says it's a miracle that we ever understand each other, the possibilities for misunderstanding being as great as they are. Here we are as living proof.
   Any grammatical construction, including sentences starting with "because" as the head of a subordinate clause, will be awkward if they don't fit the discourse purposes. 

     I would be interested to see  examples. My earlier ones were an attempt to ADD the fact that starting with these clauses is often well motivated. 

Craig

    
      





On 4/13/2011 1:31 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig, 

All I'm asking for is to "give awkwardness a chance"! When is it awkward to start a sentence with because?
 
Geoff
 

   Starting a sentence with because can be awkward. Agreed.

On 4/13/2011 12:32 PM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

Craig -
 
The reverse of what is equally true? What are you arguing here - that the rhetorical meaning of a sentence can change depending on whether "because" starts the sentence? That is totally off the point.  Re-read my post - nowhere did I argue against starting a sentence with "because" - I know the rhetorical choices involved. But you merely buttress this well-established point. That wasn't the point. Instead, go back in your treasure trove and come up with examples of what Edmonds was suggesting - namely, that there are awkward examples of starting sentences with "because" - you have many more resources than I do! Instead of flaying a dead horse, let's advance the conversation! 
 
You point out that "awkwardness depends on context" - this is what I was trying to point out, and perhaps what Edmonds was trying to point out - let's address that point! When is it awkward to start a sentence with "because"?

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 12:14:35 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Geoff, and all, 
    The reverse is equally true. Consider "Because you were late, we lost everything" as opposed to "We lost everything because you were late." Since losing everything seems a more important piece of information, the first seems smoother (more congruent with meaning) to my ear. It also allows for two pints of emphasis. 
    Introductory word groups of all kinds (anything other than the main clause grammatical subject) are recognized as marked theme in systemic functional grammar. They are intonationally marked in speech. They function as a stepping off point for the mesage structure of the sentence. It is not a trivial choice. Awkwardness would depend on context, not on some arbitrary formal rule. 
    Unfortunately, English teachers tend to rely on hearing as an alternative to grammar. Saying you should put commas where you hear the pause is about as useful as "a sentence is a complete thought," dangerous because it oversimplifies. Intonation is a grammatical system, and paying attention to it leads us into the heart of syntax--more appropriately, into the heart of the grammar-meaning connection.
   We don't just punctuate sentences--we construct them. The punctuation should work in harmony with those choices. Most students don't get very far on hearing alone. It is also one thing to know how you would say it, another to anticipate how a reader would hear it on the basis of what you have provided (or failed to provide) as clues. 

Craig 
   

On 4/13/2011 11:49 AM, Geoffrey Layton wrote:

TJ - Not to quibble, but I think the emphasis was on "awkward," not "incorrect," and starting a sentence with because can be considered awkward depending on the useage.

Geoff Layton


 

Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 10:38:37 -0500
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question
To: [log in to unmask]

Crystal,

Your encouragement of your students is a matter of choice, but I don't see that beginning a

sentence with "Because" is incorrect.

 

tj


On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 10:01 am, Crystal Edmonds wrote:

The subordinating conjunction "because" is used to link the dependent clause to the independent clause. I encourage my students to place such subordinate clauses at the end of the sentence so that there are no errors in comma usage. However, many students want to begin a sentence with "because". While it is not incorrect, the sentence structure does appear awkward. 

 

Using "for" illustrates students' sentence variety. That is important for me. 

 

 

 

C. Edmonds, Chair
Associate in Arts
English and Humanities
Robeson Community College
PO Box 1420
Lumberton, NC 28359
(910) 272-3700 ext. 3362
(910) 272-3328 (fax)
[log in to unmask]

RCC 4 R.E.A.L.  Reading Engages Active Learning

A Quality Enhancement Plan at Robeson Community College

>>> On 4/13/2011 at 8:52 AM, in message <[log in to unmask]>, "Katz, Seth" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Traditional lists of coordinating conjunctions included "for" (hence the "F" in the acronym "FANBOYS" for remembering the list of coordinating conjunctions); but it seems to me that the use of "for" as a coordinating conjunction in English has largely been succeeded by the use of "because."

I find I'm not sure here what the distinction is between a coordinating conjunction and a subordinating conjunction. Help?

Dr. Seth Katz 
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Bradley University

________________________________

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar on behalf of T. J. Ray
Sent: Wed 4/13/2011 6:16 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Punctuation Question


I believe you're right in thinking he feels this is a coordinate conjunction.  My understanding is that 
"because" clauses are dependent and hence should not be preceded with a comma.  I just
wanted a number of opinions before I bring it to the committee's attention, folks who evidently
don't see a problem with it as no one had marked any of these before I saw the MSS.

Thanks for your time.



On Wednesday 04/13/2011 at 5:43 am, "Dixon, Jack" wrote: 

Focusing on the obvious, I suspect the writer believes that "because" functions as a coordinating conjunction rather than a subordinating. Does the student punctuate most subordinating clauses that follow the independent clause this way, or do he make this mistake with "because" only?

I seem to remember that Martha Kolln in _Rhetorical Grammar_ addresses the few instances when terminal subord. clauses are set off with commas. 

________________________________________
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------060709040200030905090804-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:46:36 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Abandoning homes In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I find Craig's sentence to be awkward in either form. I would have said, "People are abandoning their homes, in part, because they are worth less than they owe." As far as punctuation, out Freshman English classes had exercises on the topic: one punctuation error studied took 15 points off the weekly theme score; two took 30 and 70 was the lowest passing score. We were taught formal American English spelling and punctuation and were expected to use both in themes. If we chose to do otherwise we would mark our error with an asterisk after the error. Once in an argumentive theme that egotists never cheated, I wrote "More credible a blasphemous priest than a dishonest egotist!*"To make that a complete sentence would have weakened it. We were allowed to violate any rules of composition as long as we put an asterisk to indicate that we knew better. -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 to 14 Apr 2011 (#2011-81) There are 11 messages totalling 9485 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Because? Awkward? Nah 2. Punctuation question 3. ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 (#2011-80) 4. Punctuation Question (7) 5. Article of potential interest To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 08:32:51 -0400 From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Because? Awkward? Nah This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------060809030403010905030002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3ECWpN6015159 Geoff, I believe I gave an example in my reply to Peter. "People have been abandoning their homes. In part because their homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so." "People have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in part, because their homes are worth less than they owe." The first one seems awkward to me because the main clause is entirely given information. If YOU believe opening with a because clause creates awkwardness, why are you relying on us for examples? I believe that's what confused us (and frustrated you.) It's more an issue of discourse than of strict syntax. The above example works (for me) because decisions should fit the discourse situation. Given and new are part of that. Craig To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 13:48:25 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Craig Hancock <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Abandoning homes In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Scott, I agree that your version is better than my two options. I needed to come up with an example that had some "given" information to show how given at the end of a clause feels awkward. Cutting out the given solves the problem, but would have made my point impossible. Often, including the given is more functional. "Give me liberty or death" doesn't work as well as the redundant form: "Give me liberty or give me death." In the famous version, liberty and death get equal weight. Sometimes, what follows matters. "We are gathered here today because of a fiscal crisis. Revenues are down and costs are rising rapidly." "Fiscal crisis" at the end of the first sentence leads into the detail of the second. These may seem like mild choices, but over the course of a whole text, they improve readability dramatically. I like the idea of the asterisk. Choice should be functionally driven. Craig On 4/15/2011 9:46 AM, Scott Catledge wrote: > I find Craig's sentence to be awkward in either form. I would have said, > "People are abandoning their homes, in part, because they are worth less > than they owe." As far as punctuation, out Freshman English classes had > exercises on the topic: one punctuation error studied took 15 points off the > weekly theme score; two took 30 and 70 was the lowest passing score. We > were taught formal American English spelling and punctuation and were > expected to use both in themes. If we chose to do otherwise we would mark > our > error with an asterisk after the error. Once in an argumentive theme that > egotists never cheated, I wrote > "More credible a blasphemous priest than a dishonest egotist!*"To make that > a complete sentence would have weakened it. We were allowed to violate any > rules of composition as long as we put an asterisk to indicate that we knew > better. > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system > Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:00 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 to 14 Apr 2011 (#2011-81) > > There are 11 messages totalling 9485 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Because? Awkward? Nah > 2. Punctuation question > 3. ATEG Digest - 13 Apr 2011 (#2011-80) > 4. Punctuation Question (7) > 5. Article of potential interest > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2011 08:32:51 -0400 > From: Craig Hancock<[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Because? Awkward? Nah > > This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > --------------060809030403010905030002 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by > mail-fe1.its.albany.edu id p3ECWpN6015159 > > Geoff, > I believe I gave an example in my reply to Peter. > "People have been abandoning their homes. In part because their > homes are worth less than they owe, they are doing so." > "People have been abandoning their homes. They are doing so, in > part, because their homes are worth less than they owe." > The first one seems awkward to me because the main clause is > entirely given information. > If YOU believe opening with a because clause creates awkwardness, > why are you relying on us for examples? I believe that's what confused > us (and frustrated you.) > It's more an issue of discourse than of strict syntax. The above > example works (for me) because decisions should fit the discourse > situation. Given and new are part of that. > > Craig > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 12:24:35 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "From the archives. ". Rest of header flushed. From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Besser sp=?iso-8859-1?Q?t?= als nie MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-646219598-1302895475=:80282" --0-646219598-1302895475=:80282 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rodney, From the archives. Once upon a time, I sat on a bar stool in a downtown-DC pub next to a pleasant woman who revealed, in due course, that she had been a translator for a large international organization for 15 years. She was not born in the USA but she speaks English "without any accent at all". To which I said,Well, that's not exactly true. Do you think I have an accent? Yes. What do you think it is and how can you tell? It's German (a reasonable guess) and I could tell the minute you opened your mouth. I'd bet you're from somewhere around Essen (a wild stab in the dark, the firsttown name that came to mind.). Hmm, she said. EVERYONE has ALWAYS told me I have NO TRACE of an accent. And, believe it or not, I was born and raised in Essen. She was dumbfounded that people could have blown so much smoke up her ass for so long. She thanked me PROFUSELY for letting herin on the secret. .brad.05feb03. Besser spt als nie, eh what? .br-had.15apr11. P.S, Note the finely-drawn distinction in the second line of the story. "she had been a translator for a large international organization for 15 years". Remember the Default Rule? Try the past tense first. It's the default. Had (subjunctive) I used the default,"was",it would clearly mean that she was then employed as a translator, but she was not then employed as a translator. She had been a translator for 15 years, but was no longer. See how nicely that works when you see it? The subject line above isGerman for, "Better late than never", which may apply to youas well. .bradagain.15apr11. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-646219598-1302895475=:80282 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rodney,
 
From the archives. 
 
Once upon a time, I sat on a bar stool in a downtown-DC pub next to a pleasant woman who revealed, in due course, that she had been a translator for a large international organization for 15 years. She was not born in the USA but she speaks English "without any accent at all".

To which I said, Well, that's not exactly true.

Do you think I have an accent?

Yes.

What do you think it is and how can you tell?

It's German (a reasonable guess) and I could tell the minute you opened your mouth. I'd bet you're from somewhere around Essen (a wild stab in the dark, the first town name that came to mind.).

Hmm, she said. EVERYONE has ALWAYS told me I have NO TRACE of an accent. And, believe it or not, I was born and raised in Essen.

She was dumbfounded that people could have blown so much smoke up her ass for so long. She thanked me PROFUSELY for letting her in on the secret.

.brad.05feb03.
 
Besser spt als nie, eh what?

.br-had.15apr11.

P.S, Note the finely-drawn distinction in the second line of the story. "she had been a translator for a large international organization for 15 years". Remember the Default Rule? Try the past tense first. It's the default.
 
Had (subjunctive) I used the default, "was", it would clearly mean that she was then employed as a translator, but she was not then employed as a translator. She had been a translator for 15 years, but was no longer. See how nicely that works when you see it?
 
The subject line above is German for, "Better late than never", which may apply to you as well.
 
.bradagain.15apr11.
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-646219598-1302895475=:80282-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 10:41:44 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> Subject: grammar question: "while running" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-679060947-1303321304=:69287" How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below --0-679060947-1303321304=:69287 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? I yelled a command while running. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-679060947-1303321304=:69287 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List,
 
How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?
 
 I yelled a command while running.
 
Thanks,
 
Scott Woods
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-679060947-1303321304=:69287-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 19:20:35 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running" In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F708F88Acmail103centralcm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F708F88Acmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'd call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood. ---- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: grammar question: "while running" Dear List, How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? I yelled a command while running. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F708F88Acmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’d call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood.

 

---- Bill Spruiell

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question: "while running"

 

Dear List,

 

How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?

 

 I yelled a command while running.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott Woods

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F708F88Acmail103centralcm_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2011 13:39:37 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "Photo Caption, from the Washington Post: Soldiers taking pa=". Rest of header flushed. From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Dying while serving MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1618358855-1303331977=:67186" --0-1618358855-1303331977=:67186 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rodney, Photo Caption, from the Washington Post: Soldiers taking part in the 13-mile Michigan Fallen Soldier March enter Great Lakes National Cemetery in Holly, Mich. The walk, in memory of those who have died while serving in the military, began at a Veterans of Foreign Wars post in Linden, Mich. You won't see anything wrong with this caption, since you only care about what people actually do sayand not what they should say, what they should have beentaught in grammar school.Right? I don't want you to toss and turn all night worrying about what might be the matter, so I'll tell you. The word 'have'is in front of the past tense verb 'died'. It doesn't belong there. People DO put 'had' in front of past tense verbs and people ALSO put 'have' in front of past tense verbs.That's because English teachers often do not know any better, because they read and heeddescriptive texts that argue that anything goes. Descriptivists recordall theweird sounds that humansmakeand thentry to explain them, try to make them fit a pattern,even if they don't make sense. ~~~~~~~ That was yesterday. This is today, also from the Washington Post."Kevin Kline jumped from a sedan to greet fans cordoned off on the far side of the street; (sic) he and Stephen Root said they'd done plays at Ford's back in the day." That's what the Post gets forfollowing a dumb rule about reporting speech as something other than what actually happened, i.e, Kline and Root said they did plays at Ford's back in the day, regardless of when they said it. "President Obama said he hoped the Israelis .." makes no sense unless the writer knows that Obama doesn't hope it anymore. If he hoped it yesterday, and hopes it today, and expects to hope it tomorrow, theword that must be used to describe accurately what happened is "hopes". "The president said he hopes the Israelis.." The next time someone writes a descriptive grammar of the English language, they should make it clear -- in big, bold, over-sized, screaming type -- that the bookdescribes the language of the streets. It does NOT attempt to define rules by which the language makes sense and by whichmost of the people most of the time have the greatest likelihood of understanding one another. The caveat shouldbe at the beginning ofeach chapter, sothe reader will be constantly reminded. The "anything goes" of descriptive grammar has its place but it will never put a man on the moon or argue a case before the Supreme Court. .brad.21apr11. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1618358855-1303331977=:67186 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Rodney,
 
Photo Caption, from the Washington Post: Soldiers taking part in the 13-mile Michigan Fallen Soldier March enter Great Lakes National Cemetery in Holly, Mich. The walk, in memory of those who have died while serving in the military, began at a Veterans of Foreign Wars post in Linden, Mich.
 
You won't see anything wrong with this caption, since you only care about what people actually do say and not what they should say, what they should have been taught in grammar school. Right?
 
I don't want you to toss and turn all night worrying about what might be the matter, so I'll tell you. The word 'have' is in front of the past tense verb 'died'. It doesn't belong there.
 
People DO put 'had' in front of past tense verbs and people ALSO put 'have' in front of past tense verbs. That's because English teachers often do not know any better, because they read and heed descriptive texts that argue that anything goes. Descriptivists record all the weird sounds that humans make and then try to explain them, try to make them fit a pattern, even if they don't make sense.
 
~~~~~~~
 
That was yesterday. This is today, also from the Washington Post. "Kevin Kline jumped from a sedan to greet fans cordoned off on the far side of the street; (sic) he and Stephen Root said they'd done plays at Ford's back in the day."
 
That's what the Post gets for following a dumb rule about reporting speech as something other than what actually happened, i.e, Kline and Root said they did plays at Ford's back in the day, regardless of when they said it.
 
"President Obama said he hoped the Israelis .." makes no sense unless the writer knows that Obama doesn't hope it anymore. If he hoped it yesterday, and hopes it today, and expects to hope it tomorrow, the word that must be used to describe accurately what happened is "hopes". "The president said he hopes the Israelis .."
 
The next time someone writes a descriptive grammar of the English language, they should make it clear -- in big, bold, over-sized, screaming type -- that the book describes the language of the streets. It does NOT attempt to define rules by which the language makes sense and by which most of the people most of the time have the greatest likelihood of understanding one another. The caveat should be at the beginning of each chapter, so the reader will be constantly reminded.
 
The "anything goes" of descriptive grammar has its place but it will never put a man on the moon or argue a case before the Supreme Court.
 
.brad.21apr11.
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1618358855-1303331977=:67186-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 09:09:23 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Syntactic and Semantic humor In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC05A5.7E3E034A" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05A5.7E3E034A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested! The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts... Linda BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!) 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies 2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say 3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers 4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case 5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms 6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? 7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope 8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over 9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands 10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids 11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead 12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told 13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death 14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant 15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree 16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout Counter 17. War Dims Hope for Peace 18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While 19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide 20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge 21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group 22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space 23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks 24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half 25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead ________________________________________ Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing University of Maryland University College School of Undergraduate Studies 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 College English Association http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ Maryland Communication Association http://www.marylandcomm.org/ (240) 684-2830 (Department) (240) 684-2928 (Office) (240) 684-2995 (Fax) ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running" I'd call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood. ---- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: grammar question: "while running" Dear List, How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? I yelled a command while running. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05A5.7E3E034A Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

 

Linda

 

 

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
      Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
      While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


 

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running"

I’d call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood.

 

---- Bill Spruiell

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question: "while running"

 

Dear List,

 

How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?

 

 I yelled a command while running.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05A5.7E3E034A-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 10:14:33 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Julia Suarez <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050303050104050203010608" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050303050104050203010608 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Linda! My students are enjoying these. We all need a lift at this time in the semester. Julie Suarez Hayes On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote: > > Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is > interested! > > The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical > and linguistic concepts... > > Linda > > ** > > ** > > *BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" > NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)* > > 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies > 2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say > 3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers > 4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case > 5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms > 6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? > 7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope > 8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over > 9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands > 10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids > 11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead > 12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told > 13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death > 14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant > 15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree > 16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout > Counter > 17. War Dims Hope for Peace > 18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a > While > 19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide > 20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge > 21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group > 22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space > 23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks > 24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half > 25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead > > > ________________________________________ > Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. > Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing > University of Maryland University College > School of Undergraduate Studies > 3501 University Boulevard East > Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 > > College English Association > http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ > > Maryland Communication Association > http://www.marylandcomm.org/ > > (240) 684-2830 (Department) > (240) 684-2928 (Office) > (240) 684-2995 (Fax) > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Spruiell, William C > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: grammar question: "while running" > > I'd call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial > clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that > required finiteness for clausehood. > > ---- Bill Spruiell > > *From:*Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Scott Woods > *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* grammar question: "while running" > > Dear List, > > How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? > > I yelled a command while running. > > Thanks, > > Scott Woods > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------050303050104050203010608 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thank you, Linda!

    My students are enjoying these.  We all need a lift at this time in the semester.

        Julie Suarez Hayes

On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote:

[log in to unmask]" type="cite">

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

 

Linda

 

 

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
      Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
      While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


 

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running"

I’d call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood.

 

---- Bill Spruiell

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question: "while running"

 

Dear List,

 

How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?

 

 I yelled a command while running.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --------------050303050104050203010608-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 11:00:06 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Tom Cruise on Teaching Comp (and grammar) In-Reply-To: A<[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CC05B4.F5A79946" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05B4.F5A79946 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable (Thanks, Julie!{) Okay, this is also fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=areTEVLmweY&feature=share The first question in the 'interview' is about grammar. Linda ________________________________________ Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing University of Maryland University College School of Undergraduate Studies 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 College English Association http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ Maryland Communication Association http://www.marylandcomm.org/ (240) 684-2830 (Department) (240) 684-2928 (Office) (240) 684-2995 (Fax) ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Suarez Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:15 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor Thank you, Linda! My students are enjoying these. We all need a lift at this time in the semester. Julie Suarez Hayes On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote: Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested! The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts... Linda BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!) 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies 2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say 3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers 4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case 5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms 6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? 7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope 8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over 9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands 10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids 11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead 12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told 13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death 14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant 15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree 16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout Counter 17. War Dims Hope for Peace 18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While 19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide 20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge 21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group 22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space 23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks 24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half 25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead ________________________________________ Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing University of Maryland University College School of Undergraduate Studies 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 College English Association http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ Maryland Communication Association http://www.marylandcomm.org/ (240) 684-2830 (Department) (240) 684-2928 (Office) (240) 684-2995 (Fax) ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running" I'd call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood. ---- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: grammar question: "while running" Dear List, How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? I yelled a command while running. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05B4.F5A79946 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

(Thanks, Julie!{)
 
Okay, this is also fun:
 
 
The first question in the 'interview' is about grammar.
 
Linda

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Suarez
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor

Thank you, Linda!

    My students are enjoying these.  We all need a lift at this time in the semester.

        Julie Suarez Hayes

On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote:
[log in to unmask] type="cite">

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

 

Linda

 

 

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
      Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
      While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


 

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running"

I’d call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood.

---- Bill Spruiell

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question: "while running"

Dear List,

How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?

 I yelled a command while running.

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01CC05B4.F5A79946-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:32:09 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA8598A4FSEMAILfacult_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA8598A4FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ATEGers, I suppose all of you know about the "Headlines" portion of Jay Leno's show. The segment usually airs on Monday nights. One recent one was contained in a classified ad that read: "Wanted: a man to take care of a cow that doesn't smoke or drink." Harvard linguist Steven Pinker is a big fan of "headlines" in any form. Marshall From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Suarez Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:15 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor Thank you, Linda! My students are enjoying these. We all need a lift at this time in the semester. Julie Suarez Hayes On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote: Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested! The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts... Linda BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!) 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies 2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say 3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers 4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case 5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms 6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? 7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope 8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over 9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands 10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids 11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead 12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told 13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death 14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant 15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree 16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout Counter 17. War Dims Hope for Peace 18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While 19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide 20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge 21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group 22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space 23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks 24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half 25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead ________________________________________ Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing University of Maryland University College School of Undergraduate Studies 3501 University Boulevard East Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 College English Association http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ Maryland Communication Association http://www.marylandcomm.org/ (240) 684-2830 (Department) (240) 684-2928 (Office) (240) 684-2995 (Fax) ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running" I'd call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood. ---- Bill Spruiell From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: grammar question: "while running" Dear List, How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below? I yelled a command while running. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA8598A4FSEMAILfacult_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

ATEGers,

 

I suppose all of you know about the “Headlines” portion of Jay Leno’s show. The segment usually airs on Monday nights.

 

One recent one was contained in a classified ad that read: “Wanted: a man to take care of a cow that doesn’t smoke or drink.”

 

Harvard linguist Steven Pinker is a big fan of “headlines” in any form.

 

Marshall

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julia Suarez
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2011 10:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor

 

Thank you, Linda!

    My students are enjoying these.  We all need a lift at this time in the semester.

        Julie Suarez Hayes

On 4/28/2011 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero wrote:

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

 

Linda

 

 

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
      Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
      While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


 

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 3:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question: "while running"

I’d call it either a reduced adverbial clause or a nonfinite adverbial clause, depending on whether my audience was using a system that required finiteness for clausehood.

 

---- Bill Spruiell

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2011 1:42 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question: "while running"

 

Dear List,

 

How would you analyze "while running" in the sentence below?

 

 I yelled a command while running.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott Woods

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_56E53A2D9BAB0B4C886C50D4ED4494442FEA8598A4FSEMAILfacult_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 17:08:50 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --0016e6ddab19bda2b004a200f658 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 As for these being "All verified!" as 1998 headlines, several of them appear on a list I first used in class discussions of ambiguity in the early 1980's. The "verified" headline "Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead" appeared on my sheet as "Reagan wins on budget, but more lies ahead," attributed to the (Blackfoot, ID) Morning News, from 22 May 1981. Some others that my students enjoyed are "Teachers Strike Annoying Students," "Kicking Baby Considered to Be Healthy," "Complaints about NBA referees growing ugly," "Dead Expected to Rise," "Homosexual Loses Boy Scout Suit," and "Columnist gets urologist in trouble with his peers." They were attributed to various newspapers in 1979-1981, but I haven't personally verified their authenticity. Dick On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is > interested! > > The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and > linguistic concepts... > > > > Linda > > ** > > ** > > *BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" > NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)* > > 1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies > 2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say > 3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers > 4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case > 5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms > 6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? > 7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope > 8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over > 9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands > 10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids > 11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead > 12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told > 13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death > 14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant > 15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree > 16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout > Counter > 17. War Dims Hope for Peace > 18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a > While > 19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide > 20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge > 21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group > 22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space > 23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks > 24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half > 25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead > > > > ________________________________________ > Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. > Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing > University of Maryland University College > School of Undergraduate Studies > 3501 University Boulevard East > Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 > > College English Association > http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ > > Maryland Communication Association > http://www.marylandcomm.org/ > > (240) 684-2830 (Department) > (240) 684-2928 (Office) > (240) 684-2995 (Fax) > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6ddab19bda2b004a200f658 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As for these being "All verified!" as 1998 headlines, several of them appear on a list I first used in class discussions of ambiguity in the early 1980's. The "verified" headline "Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead" appeared on my sheet as "Reagan wins on budget, but more lies ahead," attributed to the (Blackfoot, ID) Morning News, from 22 May 1981.

Some others that my students enjoyed are "Teachers Strike Annoying Students," "Kicking Baby Considered to Be Healthy," "Complaints about NBA referees growing ugly," "Dead Expected to Rise," "Homosexual Loses Boy Scout Suit," and "Columnist gets urologist in trouble with his peers." They were attributed to various newspapers in 1979-1981, but I haven't personally verified their authenticity.

Dick

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

Linda

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD 20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6ddab19bda2b004a200f658-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2011 16:21:49 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1320564928-1304032909=:2639" --0-1320564928-1304032909=:2639 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've used many similarheadlines over the years, too. And for the record, My list matches Dick Veit's (it's Reagan, not Clinton, with the budget). Here are a few gems: Drunk gets nine months in violin caseEnraged cow injures farmer with ax Miners refuse to work after death Juvenile court to try shooting defendant Two sisters reunited after 18 years in checkout counter Killer sentenced to die for second time in 10 years Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half Enjoy, Paul "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). ________________________________ From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thu, April 28, 2011 5:08:50 PM Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor As for these being "All verified!" as 1998 headlines, several of them appear on a list I first used in class discussions of ambiguity in the early 1980's. The "verified" headline "Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead" appeared on my sheet as "Reagan wins on budget, but more lies ahead," attributed to the (Blackfoot, ID) Morning News, from 22 May 1981. Some others that my students enjoyed are "Teachers Strike Annoying Students," "Kicking Baby Considered to Be Healthy," "Complaints about NBA referees growing ugly," "Dead Expected to Rise," "Homosexual Loses Boy Scout Suit," and "Columnist gets urologist in trouble with his peers." They were attributed to various newspapers in 1979-1981, but I haven't personally verified their authenticity. Dick On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested! >The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and >linguistic concepts... > >Linda > > >BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE" >NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!) > >1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies >2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say >3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers >4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case >5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms >6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus? >7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope >8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over >9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands >10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids >11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead >12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told >13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death >14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant >15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree >16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout >Counter >17. War Dims Hope for Peace >18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a >While >19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide >20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge >21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group >22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space >23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks >24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half >25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead > > >________________________________________ >Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D. >Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing >University of Maryland University College >School of Undergraduate Studies >3501 University Boulevard East >Adelphi, MD 20783-8083 > >College English Association >http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/ > >Maryland Communication Association >http://www.marylandcomm.org/ > >(240) 684-2830 (Department) >(240) 684-2928 (Office) >(240) 684-2995 (Fax) > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1320564928-1304032909=:2639 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I've used many similar headlines over the years, too.  And for the record, My list matches Dick Veit's (it's Reagan, not Clinton, with the budget).
 
Here are a few gems:
 

Drunk gets nine months in violin case

Enraged cow injures farmer with ax

Miners refuse to work after death

Juvenile court to try shooting defendant

Two sisters reunited after 18 years in checkout counter

Killer sentenced to die for second time in 10 years

Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half

 
Enjoy,
 
Paul
 
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).


From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Thu, April 28, 2011 5:08:50 PM
Subject: Re: Syntactic and Semantic humor

As for these being "All verified!" as 1998 headlines, several of them appear on a list I first used in class discussions of ambiguity in the early 1980's. The "verified" headline "Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead" appeared on my sheet as "Reagan wins on budget, but more lies ahead," attributed to the (Blackfoot, ID) Morning News, from 22 May 1981.

Some others that my students enjoyed are "Teachers Strike Annoying Students," "Kicking Baby Considered to Be Healthy," "Complaints about NBA referees growing ugly," "Dead Expected to Rise," "Homosexual Loses Boy Scout Suit," and "Columnist gets urologist in trouble with his peers." They were attributed to various newspapers in 1979-1981, but I haven't personally verified their authenticity.

Dick

On Thu, Apr 28, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Here are some cute headlines to use in grammar lessons, if anyone is interested!

The humor, of course, hinges on several different sorts of grammatical and linguistic concepts...

 

Linda

 

 

BEST "HUMOROUS WITHOUT MEANING TO BE"
NEWSPAPER HEADLINES OF 1998 (All verified!)

1. Include Your Children When Baking Cookies
2. Something Went Wrong in Jet Crash, Experts Say
3. Police Begin Campaign to Run Down Jaywalkers
4. Drunks Get Nine Months in Violin Case
5. Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
6. Is There a Ring of Debris around Uranus?
7. Prostitutes Appeal to Pope
8. Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
9. British Left Waffles on Falkland Islands
10. Teacher Strikes Idle Kids
11. Clinton Wins Budget; More Lies Ahead
12. Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
13. Miners Refuse to Work After Death
14. Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
15. Stolen Painting Found by Tree
16. Two Sisters Reunited after 18 Years in Checkout
      Counter
17. War Dims Hope for Peace
18. If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a
      While
19. Couple Slain; Police Suspect Homicide
20. Man Struck by Lightning Faces Battery Charge
21. New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
22. Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Space
23. Kids Make Nutritious Snacks
24. Local High School Dropouts Cut in Half
25. Typhoon Rips through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead


 

________________________________________
Linda Di Desidero, Ph.D.
Director, Communication Studies & Professional Writing
University of Maryland University College
School of Undergraduate Studies
3501 University Boulevard East
Adelphi, MD  20783-8083

College English Association
http://cea.stevensonuniversity.org/

Maryland Communication Association
http://www.marylandcomm.org/

(240) 684-2830 (Department)
(240) 684-2928 (Office)
(240) 684-2995 (Fax)


To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1320564928-1304032909=:2639-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 16:27:21 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Quotation marks In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_H8XcXbgnjgXWcjmaMIqfew)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_H8XcXbgnjgXWcjmaMIqfew) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage). At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always... John The most famous line in the book is Cant repeat the past? Gatsby cried incredulously. And then he asked Daisy, Remember when you said, Of course you can? John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic. Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper. Pequannock Township High School Pompton Plains,NJ 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_H8XcXbgnjgXWcjmaMIqfew) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline

Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage).
 
At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always...
 
John
 
 

The most famous line in the book is Cant repeat the past? Gatsby cried incredulously.  And then he asked Daisy, Remember when you said, Of course you can?



John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic.
Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper.


Pequannock Township High School
Pompton Plains,NJ
973.616.6000



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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_H8XcXbgnjgXWcjmaMIqfew)-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:07:03 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quotation marks In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F79111F2cmail103centralcm_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F79111F2cmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that's okay as well, using the "toggle between double and single quotes for each nested layer of quotation" system. If context would let me get away with it, though, I'd want to shift the beginning to "The most famous line in the book is as follows:" and then use block quotation style for the rest, just to scrape off that outer layer of marks. Bill Spruiell Dept. of English Central Michigan University From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:27 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Quotation marks Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage). At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always... John The most famous line in the book is "'Can't repeat the past?' Gatsby cried incredulously. And then he asked Daisy, 'Remember when you said, "Of course you can"?'" John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic. Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper. Pequannock Township High School Pompton Plains,NJ 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F79111F2cmail103centralcm_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I think that’s okay as well, using the “toggle between double and single quotes for each nested layer of quotation” system.  If context would let me get away with it, though, I’d want to shift the beginning to “The most famous line in the book is as follows:” and then use block quotation style for the rest, just to scrape off that outer layer of marks.

 

Bill Spruiell

Dept. of English

Central Michigan University

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Friday, April 29, 2011 12:27 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quotation marks

 

Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage).

 

At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always...

 

John

 

 

The most famous line in the book is “‘Can’t repeat the past?’ Gatsby cried incredulously.  And then he asked Daisy, ‘Remember when you said, “Of course you can”?’”



John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic.
Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper.


Pequannock Township High School
Pompton Plains,NJ
973.616.6000



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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_9D907BBC2FA6C54DA266F92BD29DF3F79111F2cmail103centralcm_-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 13:24:11 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quotation marks In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --0015174ff2528c9f4604a211f337 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Bill's suggestion. But I also wonder about what the student is actually referring to. Gatsby does not ask Daisy that question, and she does not say those words. The text reads this way: I wouldnt ask too much of her, I ventured. You cant repeat the past. Cant repeat the past? he cried incredulously. Why of course you can! Don Stewart www.writeforcollege.com www.writing123.com On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:27 PM, John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Cant repeat the past To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0015174ff2528c9f4604a211f337 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Bill's suggestion.


But I also wonder about what the student is actually referring to. Gatsby does not ask Daisy that question, and she does not say those words. The text reads this way:

I wouldnt ask too much of her, I ventured. You cant repeat the past.
Cant repeat the past? he cried incredulously. Why of course you can!

Don Stewart
www.writeforcollege.com
www.writing123.com




On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:27 PM, John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Cant repeat the past

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0015174ff2528c9f4604a211f337-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:54:36 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quotation marks In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_WX3rfyH/cE6zQ6RD8GUILA)" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WX3rfyH/cE6zQ6RD8GUILA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline Dan - I should have prefaced the posting by stating that the example was actually generated by the student as a model for potential use of quotations in a situation that called for single and double quotes. So, you're correct in stating that the text isn't exact, but "borrowed" for use in creating the scenario. Nonetheless, the question remains - is the present use of punctuation correct or feasible? Yes, it can be rephrased and rewritten, but let's take it as given. Thanks. John ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Stewart Date: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:16 pm Subject: Re: Quotation marks To: [log in to unmask] > I agree with Bill's suggestion. > > But I also wonder about what the student is actually referring > to. Gatsby > does not ask Daisy that question, and she does not say those > words. The text > reads this way: > > I wouldnt ask too much of her, I ventured. You cant repeat > the past. > Cant repeat the past? he cried incredulously. Why of course > you can! > > Don Stewart > www.writeforcollege.com > www.writing123.com > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:27 PM, John Chorazy > wrote: > > > Cant repeat the past > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > John Chorazy English III Academy, Honors, and Academic. Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper. Pequannock Township High School Pompton Plains,NJ 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_WX3rfyH/cE6zQ6RD8GUILA) Content-type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline

Dan - I should have prefaced the posting by stating that the example was actually generated by the student as a model for potential use of quotations in a situation that called for single and double quotes. So, you're correct in stating that the text isn't exact, but "borrowed" for use in creating the scenario.
 
Nonetheless, the question remains - is the present use of punctuation correct or feasible? Yes, it can be rephrased and rewritten, but let's take it as given. Thanks.
 
John
 


----- Original Message -----
From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Friday, April 29, 2011 1:16 pm
Subject: Re: Quotation marks
To: [log in to unmask]

> I agree with Bill's suggestion.
>
> But I also wonder about what the student is actually referring
> to. Gatsby
> does not ask Daisy that question, and she does not say those
> words. The text
> reads this way:
>
> I wouldnt ask too much of her, I ventured. You cant repeat
> the past.
> Cant repeat the past? he cried incredulously. Why of course
> you can!
>
> Don Stewart
> www.writeforcollege.com
> www.writing123.com
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 12:27 PM, John Chorazy
> <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
>
> > Cant repeat the past
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>


John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic.
Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper.


Pequannock Township High School
Pompton Plains,NJ
973.616.6000



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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --Boundary_(ID_WX3rfyH/cE6zQ6RD8GUILA)-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:27:59 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> Subject: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1762132307-1304112479=:21729" How would you characterize the function of the underlined i --0-1762132307-1304112479=:21729 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in the sentence below? I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1762132307-1304112479=:21729 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List,
 
How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in the sentence below? 
 
    I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying.
 
Thanks,
 
Scott Woods
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-1762132307-1304112479=:21729-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 14:34:51 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Kathleen Ward <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary cf307f307aa34c9a04a2157126 --20cf307f307aa34c9a04a2157126 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Complement to the adjective "able" would be my best guess. Kathleen Ward On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear List, > > How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase > in the sentence below? > > I suddenly became able *to improve my basketball game without trying*. > > Thanks, > > Scott Woods > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf307f307aa34c9a04a2157126 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Complement to the adjective "able" would be my best guess.

Kathleen Ward

On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 2:27 PM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear List,
How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in the sentence below?
I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf307f307aa34c9a04a2157126-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:26:23 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Looks like an adverbial phrase modifying 'able'. I suppose one could make the case it modifies the linking verb 'became'. Larry Larry Beason Associate Professor & Composition Director Dept. of English, 240 HUMB Univ. of South Alabama Mobile AL 36688 (251) 460-7861 >>> Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> 04/29/11 4:31 PM >>> Dear List, How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in the sentence below? I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying. Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 18:40:40 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --001485f628ec63f87a04a2165ff9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I would call it an infinitive phrase (form) with an adverbial function, modifying the adjective "able." This is a common pattern: happy to see you eager to please ready to go willing to help Don Stewart www.writeforcollege.com www.writing123.com On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Looks like an adverbial phrase modifying 'able'. I suppose one could make > the case it modifies the linking verb 'became'. > > Larry > > Larry Beason > Associate Professor & Composition Director > Dept. of English, 240 HUMB > Univ. of South Alabama > Mobile AL 36688 > (251) 460-7861 > >>> Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> 04/29/11 4:31 PM >>> > Dear List, > > How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase > in > the sentence below? > > > I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying. > > Thanks, > > Scott Woods > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --001485f628ec63f87a04a2165ff9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would call it an infinitive phrase (form) with an adverbial function, modifying the adjective "able."


This is a common pattern:

happy to see you
eager to please
ready to go
willing to help


Don Stewart
www.writeforcollege.com
www.writing123.com




On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Looks like an adverbial phrase modifying 'able'. I suppose one could make the case it modifies the linking verb 'became'.

Larry

Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> 04/29/11 4:31 PM >>>
Dear List,

How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in
the sentence below?


I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying.

Thanks,

Scott Woods

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --001485f628ec63f87a04a2165ff9-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:51:33 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quotation marks MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_SW_1126836685_1304117493_mpa=" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_SW_1126836685_1304117493_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mualmarp02.mcs.muohio.edu id p3TMpZcK025756 Looks to me as though he's quite correct. tjr On Friday 04/29/2011 at 11:54 am, John Chorazy wrote: > > Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that > student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the > use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and > in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, > causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words > are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply > quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage). > > At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts > and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always... > > John > > > The most famous line in the book is “‘Can’t repeat the past?’ > Gatsby cried incredulously. And then he asked Daisy, ‘Remember when > you said, “Of course you can”?’” > > > John Chorazy > English III Academy, Honors, and Academic. > Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper. > > > Pequannock Township High School > Pompton Plains,NJ > 973.616.6000 > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1126836685_1304117493_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Looks to me as though he's quite correct.


tjr


On Friday 04/29/2011 at 11:54 am, John Chorazy wrote:
Hello to all... a colleague asked about a student paper in which that student wrote what you'll find below. The question is in regard to the use of quotes, particularly because the quoted text is dialogue, and in that dialogue the speaker (not the narrator) quotes someone else, causing a bit of a mess with quotation marks. The student's own words are in italics below, and the rest is his attempt to correctly apply quotations (the quotes on the outside of the entire passage).
 
At first glance, I think he may actually be okay here...Any thoughts and comments would be appreciated! Thank you, as always...
 
John
 
 

The most famous line in the book is “‘Can’t repeat the past?’ Gatsby cried incredulously.  And then he asked Daisy, ‘Remember when you said, “Of course you can”?’”



John Chorazy
English III Academy, Honors, and Academic.
Adviser, Panther Press School Newspaper.


Pequannock Township High School
Pompton Plains,NJ
973.616.6000



To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1126836685_1304117493_mpa=-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 17:54:13 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_SW_1411314847_1304117653_mpa=" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_SW_1411314847_1304117653_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed I agree with Katherine and Don: inf. phrase used as an adverbial, in fact a restrictive one in that "able" has no sense without the phrase. On Friday 04/29/2011 at 5:47 pm, Don Stewart wrote: > I would call it an infinitive phrase (form) with an adverbial > function, modifying the adjective "able." > > This is a common pattern: > > happy to see you > eager to please > ready to go > willing to help > > > Don Stewart > www.writeforcollege.com > www.writing123.com > > > > > On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: >> >> Looks like an adverbial phrase modifying 'able'. I suppose one could >> make the case it modifies the linking verb 'became'. >> >> Larry >> >> Larry Beason >> Associate Professor & Composition Director >> Dept. of English, 240 HUMB >> Univ. of South Alabama >> Mobile AL 36688 >> (251) 460-7861 >> >>> Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> 04/29/11 4:31 PM >>> >> >> >> >> Dear List, >> >> How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive >> phrase in >> the sentence below? >> >> >> I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without >> trying. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott Woods >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1411314847_1304117653_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree with Katherine and Don:  inf. phrase used as an adverbial, in fact a restrictive one

in that "able" has no sense without the phrase.


On Friday 04/29/2011 at 5:47 pm, Don Stewart wrote:
I would call it an infinitive phrase (form) with an adverbial function, modifying the adjective "able." 

This is a common pattern:

happy to see you
eager to please
ready to go
willing to help 


Don Stewart
www.writeforcollege.com
www.writing123.com




On Fri, Apr 29, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Larry Beason <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Looks like an adverbial phrase modifying 'able'.  I suppose one could make the case it modifies the linking verb 'became'.

Larry

Larry Beason
Associate Professor & Composition Director
Dept. of English, 240 HUMB
Univ. of South Alabama
Mobile AL 36688
(251) 460-7861
>>> Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> 04/29/11 4:31 PM >>>
Dear List,

How would you characterize the function of the underlined infinitive phrase in
the sentence below?


   I suddenly became able to improve my basketball game without trying.

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_1411314847_1304117653_mpa=-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2011 19:20:17 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: grammar question--function of an infinitive phrase MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PERJViBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6VmVyZGFuYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsgZm9udC1zaXplOjEw cHQ7Ij48RElWPlNjb3R0LCA8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+Jm5ic3A7PC9ESVY+DQo8RElWPkkgc2hvdWxk IGxpa2UgdG8gYWRkIHRoYXQgdGhlIGFkdmVyYmlhbCBmdW5jdGlvbiBvZiB0aGUgaW5maW5pdGl2 ZSB3aXRoICJhYmxlIiBtYXkgYmUgc2VlbiBhcyBhIHBlcmlwaHJhc3RpYyB2ZXJzaW9uIG9mICJj YW4iIHNvIHRoYXQgPEJSPjwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5JIGNvdWxkIHN1ZGRlbmx5Jm5ic3A7aW1wcm92 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