Karl asks an important question. A "clause" is an abstract concept that has no existence independent of the minds of those who use it. Grammar being a diverse and heterogeneous discipline, different grammarians will stipulate different definitions for "clause." Lacking a consensus, one cannot argue that one's own definition is inherently right and natural; one can only attempt to demonstrate that it is useful and explanatory. Karl is justified in saying, make the case. While we're at it, a definition of "clause" would also have to specify what the clauses are in a sentence like Iago's "Who steals my purse steals trash." This would seem to present a problem for my eighth grade teacher, who, if I remember correctly, claimed that "main clauses" and "subordinate clauses" were mutually exclusive. Is "steals trash" a main clause? Others would define "clause" to have the entire sentence be a clause, which contained within it the clause "Who steals my purse." Equally stipulative is the definition of "phrase." The definition I find most useful (something like "a group of words that we intuit as forming a grammatical unit") would include not just noun phrases, prepositional phrases, and the like, but also clauses and sentences as types of phrases. Dick On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 11:03 AM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > TJ, > > I still don't get why you want to make the finite distinction. In what > way do finite verbs in subordinate clauses "sustain" a sentence in a way > that a nonfinite verb does not? Neither a subordinate clause nor an > infinitive whatever-we-want-to-call-it will "sustain" a complete sentence. > > I don't think teaching the distinction between finite and nonfinite is > problematic. I just think that tying the "clause" label to finite verbs > alone is neither accurate nor pedagogically helpful. > > Karl > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/