Larry, I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect. If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done on other lists in response to similar complaints. Mark On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us > identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of > the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are > practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and > changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often > does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think > it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I > might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting > to some minor disputes. > > If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and > linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one > also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various > sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences. > > I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature > and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and > rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this > list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good > discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've > grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone. > > Larry > > ____________________________ > Larry Beason, Associate Professor > Director of Composition > University of South Alabama > Mobile, AL 36688-0002 > Office: 251-460-7861 > FAX: 251-461-1517 > > > >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>> > Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list > manager. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to > the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would > like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for > grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from > linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the > list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way, > then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the > suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the > past. > > Craig > > > > On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote: > I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete > some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who > make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it. > > Carole > > From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about > "All Gaul is divided". > > Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to > be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me. > > (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems > that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo > address. Nothing evil or devious about it.) > > "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated > in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in > their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if > they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will > withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below. > > .brad.18july11. > > ________________________________ > From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM > Subject: How to deal with a crackpot > Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a > filter on my email account to block his messages? > > Answers: > 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too). > 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people > realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no > matter what crazy things he says to provoke you. > > ~~~~~ > > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700 > From: Brad Johnston > <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: All Gaul is divided > Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I > hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the > goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and > figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another. > > Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions > came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people > actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to > agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have > different training, different interests, and different goals. They look > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what > joins us together (prescriptive grammar). > > When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of > their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists, > "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's > interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising > Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't > what makes the grammar world go around. > > The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their > exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in > the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve > the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who > each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar. > > The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but > since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it > not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the > linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things > that interest them? > > br-had.sun.17july11. > . > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > -- [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/