Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_54907_1832262292.1311728170518-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:02:31 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Grammar for English Language Teachers In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_605c0fe2-5a04-4152-b6c2-7f6c5ae850b1_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_605c0fe2-5a04-4152-b6c2-7f6c5ae850b1_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eduard - Can you summarize what these chapters have to say - some examples? Geoff Layton Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:56:10 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar for English Language Teachers To: [log in to unmask] Brad, Please, read chapter 8 - "Verbs," in Martin Parrot's book "Grammar for English Language Teachers," and especially section 15 - "The Past: past perfect simple, past continuous, and past perfect continuous." This section describes in clear terms the "past perfect simple" (subsections 15.5 and 15.2) in relation to what the author calls the "Sequence of events," "State verbs," and the "Narrative" (pp. 195-196). See below: _________________ Sequence of events We use the past perfect simple when we want to draw attention to the fact that something took place and finished before something in the past... We use the past perfect simple to avoid confusion or ambiguity. We don't use it simply because an event came before another, but in order to clarify the order of events..." (p.196). _________________ For even a better understanding of the need for the (simple) past perfect in the narration of past events that occured at different times in the past, Parrot includes also on the page a partial time axis that provides a visual perspective on past events and the use of the simple past and the past perfect to narrate those events in the order in which they occurred. Eduard From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:18:39 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Aaah, Eduard. How NICE of you to drop by. You are just what I need. I had to drop out of school after the fourth grade to help support my family, so I never had the advantages you had. It would be really, really helpful to me if you would please tell me what the past perfect is and give me some examples. Don't be too technical, just tell me what it is. Many thanks. .brad.26july11. From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:24 AM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Brad, The only one who with a "had" problem seems to be you. This is because you don't understand the verb's tense and aspect - in English or other languages. A little fifth grade grammar would do you a lot of good. Eduard From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:15:27 AM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Geoff wrote, So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I didn't think of that! On the list or 'had' errors, 'had-for-did' is the fourth most frequent, after (1) 'had' in front of a past tense verb, (2) 'had been' where 'was' or 'were' belong, and (3) 'had' in front of an irregular past tense verb. 'Had-for-did' is a scrap, but a noticeable scrap. The bulk of the intruding 'had's put 'had' in front of regular and irregular past tense verbs, and that happens a lot. My standard test is the first 21 pages of a novel. I note all the 'had's and that will be 50, 60, 80, 100 total. I subtract the correct usages of the past tense of 'have', and the past perfect, and the subjunctive. The error percentage thus derived runs from 45% to 90% (believe it or not). I recently started a novel in which there are 166 'had's in the first 21 pages (a record) and the error rate is 77% (not a record). I wrote to the author and told him there are too many grammar errors for me to continue. He wrote back saying "Thank you very much. I'll talk to my copy editor about it". Authors tend to be defensive. Copy editors tend to be either defensive or dismissive, saying it's not their job. They make sure Pearl Harbor Day does not show as the 7th of January but otherwise the author can write whatever he or she wants to write. James Patterson made $32 million in royalties in a recent year. Imagine a copy editor with enough of a death-wish to be willing to say, "Excuse me, Mr. Patterson, Sir, but you have a 'had' problem". Think that will ever happen? Not likely, is it? .br.had.26july11. ~~~~~~~~ From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I hadn't thought of that! Geoff Layton Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:46:07 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: intruding 'had's To: [log in to unmask] But you didn't run into a past perfect in the sample below. You ran into a 'had' in front of a past tense verb, which is an unfortunately common occurrence, even among professionals. There are otherwise-well-meaning people who insist on putting 'had's in front of past tense verbs, even irregular past tense verbs, which forces the irregular past participle, making them a tad harder to detect. But thank you for thinking of me. .brad.25july11. From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 2:27 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Brad, When I read this, I immediately thought of you (as I do whenever I run into the past perfect) As it happens, a team of animal behaviorists led by Jenny Ryon at Dalhousie University had explored this very question of canine's penchant for perfume in 1986. Their study wasn't with dogs�to the best of my knowledge, no controlled studies on scent-rubbing with domesticated dogs have ever been done�but with a very close relative instead: the wolf (Canis lupus). Any comments .To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_605c0fe2-5a04-4152-b6c2-7f6c5ae850b1_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_605c0fe2-5a04-4152-b6c2-7f6c5ae850b1_-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:12:42 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Past Perfect Definition and Usage In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55241_452696438.1311729162352" ------=_Part_55241_452696438.1311729162352 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable   Brad, Here is something that is worth looking at: From: http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage /pastperfect.html /pastperfect.html Past Perfect FORM [had + past participle] Examples: ·        You had studied English before you moved to New York. ·        Had you studied English before you moved to New York? ·        You had not studied English before you moved to New York. Complete List of Past Perfect Forms USE 1 Completed Action Before Something in the Past The Past Perfect expresses the idea that something occurred before another action in the past. It can also show that something happened before a specific time in the past. Examples: ·        I had never seen such a beautiful beach before I went to Kauai. ·        I did not have any money because I had lost my wallet. ·        Tony knew Istanbul so well because he had visited the city several times. ·        Had Susan ever studied Thai before she moved to Thailand? ·        She only understood the movie because she had read the book. ·        Kristine had never been to an opera before last night. ·        We were not able to get a hotel room because we had not booked in advance. ·        A: Had you ever visited the U.S. before your trip in 2006? B: Yes, I had been to the U.S. once before. USE 2 Duration Before Something in the Past (Non-Continuous Verbs) With Non-Continuous Verbs and some non-continuous uses of Mixed Verbs , we use the Past Perfect to show that something started in the past and continued up until another action in the past. Examples: ·        We had had that car for ten years before it broke down. ·        By the time Alex finished his studies, he had been in London for over eight years. ·        They felt bad about selling the house because they had owned it for more than forty years. Although the above use of Past Perfect is normally limited to Non-Continuous Verbs and non-continuous uses of Mixed Verbs, the words "live," "work," "teach," and "study" are sometimes used in this way even though they are NOT Non-Continuous Verbs. IMPORTANT Specific Times with the Past Perfect Unlike with the Present Perfect , it is possible to use specific time words or phrases with the Past Perfect. Although this is possible, it is usually not necessary. Example: ·        She had visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996. MOREOVER If the Past Perfect action did occur at a specific time, the Simple Past can be used instead of the Past Perfect when "before" or "after" is used in the sentence. The words "before" and "after" actually tell you what happens first, so the Past Perfect is optional. For this reason, both sentences below are correct. Examples: ·        She had visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996. ·        She visited her Japanese relatives once in 1993 before she moved in with them in 1996. HOWEVER If the Past Perfect is not referring to an action at a specific time, Past Perfect is not optional. Compare the examples below. Here Past Perfect is referring to a lack of experience rather than an action at a specific time. For this reason, Simple Past cannot be used. Examples: ·        She never saw a bear before she moved to Alaska. Not Correct ·        She had never seen a bear before she moved to Alaska. Correct ADVERB PLACEMENT The examples below show the placement for grammar adverbs such as: always, only, never, ever, still, just, etc. Examples: ·        You had previously studied English before you moved to New York. ·        Had you previously studied English before you moved to New York? ACTIVE / PASSIVE Examples: ·        George had repaired many cars before he received his mechanic's license. Active ·        Many cars had been repaired by George before he received his mechanic's license. Passive   I hope this helps you to understand the past perfect and its usage in a sentence. Eduard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 7:50:15 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Christopher, You think this displays an "intellectual and civil attitude"?  The only one who with a "had" problem seems to be you. This is because you don't understand the verb's tense and aspect - in English or other languages. A little fifth grade grammar would do you a lot of good. As a matter of fact, I will be pleased and delighted if he will do as I asked. I hope he meant to volunteer, but I'll bet he won't do it, not because he won't but because he can't. He doesn't know what it is. Do you know what it is? The part about dropping out of school was only in reply to his jibe about fifth grade grammar. My rejoinder does not strike me as excessive, but if it offends you, I'm sorry. What is it, Christopher? What is the past perfect? Our whole world is watching. .brad.26 july 11. From: Christopher Shull <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:36 PM Subject: Re: intruding ' had's I think sarcasm demeans the intellectual and civil attitude we should be taking here.   Chris   From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brad Johnston Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 5:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: intruding ' had's   Aaah , Eduard. How NICE of you to drop by. You are just what I need.   I had to drop out of school after the fourth grade to help support my family, so I never had the advantages you had.   It would be really, really helpful to me if you would please tell me what the past perfect is and give me some examples. Don't be too technical, just tell me what it is.   Many thanks.   .brad.26 july 11.   From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:24 AM Subject: Re: intruding ' had's Brad,   The only one who with a "had" problem seems to be you. This is because you don't understand the verb's tense and aspect - in English or other languages. A little fifth grade grammar would do you a lot of good.   Eduard From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:15:27 AM Subject: Re: intruding ' had's Geoff wrote,  So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I  didn't think of that! On the list or 'had' errors, 'had-for-did' is the fourth most frequent, after (1) 'had' in front of a past tense verb, (2) 'had been' where 'was' or 'were' belong, and (3) 'had' in front of an irregular past tense verb. 'Had-for-did' is a scrap, but a noticeable scrap. The bulk of the intruding ' had's put 'had' in front of regular and irregular past tense verbs, and that happens a lot. My standard test is the first 21 pages of a novel. I note all the ' had's and that will be 50, 60, 80, 100 total. I subtract the correct usages of the past tense of 'have', and the past perfect, and the subjunctive. The error percentage thus derived runs from 45% to 90% (believe it or not). I recently started a novel in which there are 166 ' had's in the first 21 pages (a record) and the error rate is 77% (not a record). I wrote to the author and told him there are too many grammar errors for me to continue. He wrote back saying "Thank you very much. I'll talk to my copy editor about it". Authors tend to be defensive. Copy editors tend to be either defensive or dismissive, saying it's not their job. They make sure Pearl Harbor Day does not show as the 7 th of January but otherwise the author can write whatever he or she wants to write.  James Patterson made $32 million in royalties in a recent year. Imagine a copy editor with enough of a death-wish to be willing to say, "Excuse me, Mr. Patterson, Sir, but you have a 'had' problem". Think that will ever happen? Not likely, is it? .br.had.26july11. ~~~~~~~~ From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: intruding ' had's   So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I hadn't thought of that! Geoff Layton   Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:46:07 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: intruding ' Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_55241_452696438.1311729162352 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_55241_452696438.1311729162352-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 21:15:01 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Web Site In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_55323_763515638.1311729301232" ------=_Part_55323_763515638.1311729301232 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoffrey, The web site below provides a pretty good summary of the English past perfect tense and its usage in the sentence: http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html Eduard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 8:02:31 PM Subject: Re: Grammar for English Language Teachers Eduard -   Can you summarize what these chapters have to say - some examples? Geoff Layton   Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:56:10 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar for English Language Teachers To: [log in to unmask] Brad,   Please, read  chapter 8 - "Verbs," in Martin Parrot's book "Grammar for English Language Teachers," and especially section 15 - "The Past: past perfect simple, past continuous, and past perfect continuous." This section describes in clear terms the "past perfect simple"  (subsections 15.5 and 15.2) in relation to what the author calls the "Sequence of events," "State verbs," and the "Narrative" (pp. 195-196). See below:   _________________   Sequence of events   We use the past perfect simple when we want to draw attention to the fact that something took place and finished before something in the past... We use the past perfect simple to avoid confusion or ambiguity. We don't use it simply because an event came before another, but in order to clarify the order of events..." (p.196). _________________   For even a better understanding of the need for the (simple) past perfect in the narration of past events that occured at different times in the past, Parrot includes also on the page a partial time axis that provides a visual perspective on past events and the use of the simple past and the past perfect to narrate those events in the order in which they occurred.   Eduard From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 4:18:39 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Aaah, Eduard. How NICE of you to drop by. You are just what I need. I had to drop out of school after the fourth grade to help support my family, so I never had the advantages you had. It would be really, really helpful to me if you would please tell me what the past perfect is and give me some examples. Don't be too technical, just tell me what it is. Many thanks. .brad.26july11. From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:24 AM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Brad,   The only one who with a "had" problem seems to be you. This is because you don't understand the verb's tense and aspect - in English or other languages. A little fifth grade grammar would do you a lot of good.   Eduard From: "Brad Johnston" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 6:15:27 AM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Geoff wrote,  So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I  didn't think of that! On the list or 'had' errors, 'had-for-did' is the fourth most frequent, after (1) 'had' in front of a past tense verb, (2) 'had been' where 'was' or 'were' belong, and (3) 'had' in front of an irregular past tense verb. 'Had-for-did' is a scrap, but a noticeable scrap. The bulk of the intruding 'had's put 'had' in front of regular and irregular past tense verbs, and that happens a lot. My standard test is the first 21 pages of a novel. I note all the 'had's and that will be 50, 60, 80, 100 total. I subtract the correct usages of  the past tense of 'have', and the past perfect, and the subjunctive. The error percentage thus derived runs from 45% to 90% (believe it or not). I recently started a novel in which there are 166 'had's in the first 21 pages (a record) and the error rate is 77% (not a record). I wrote to the author and told him there are too many grammar errors for me to continue. He wrote back saying "Thank you very much. I'll talk to my copy editor about it". Authors tend to be defensive. Copy editors tend to be either defensive or dismissive, saying it's not their job. They make sure Pearl Harbor Day does not show as the 7th of January but otherwise the author can write whatever he or she wants to write.  James Patterson made $32 million in royalties in a recent year. Imagine a copy editor with enough of a death-wish to be willing to say, "Excuse me, Mr. Patterson, Sir, but you have a 'had' problem". Think that will ever happen? Not likely, is it? .br.had.26july11. ~~~~~~~~ From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 7:51 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's So I was right that this was wrong but for the wrong reason - I hadn't thought of that! Geoff Layton   Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2011 16:46:07 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: intruding 'had's To: [log in to unmask] But you didn't run into a past perfect in the sample below. You ran into a 'had' in front of a past tense verb, which is an unfortunately common occurrence, even among professionals. There are otherwise-well-meaning people who insist on putting 'had's in front of past tense verbs, even irregular past tense verbs, which forces the irregular past participle, making them a tad harder to detect. But thank you for thinking of me. .brad.25july11. From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 2:27 PM Subject: Re: intruding 'had's Brad,   When I read this, I immediately thought of you (as I do whenever I run into the past perfect) As it happens, a team of animal behaviorists led by Jenny Ryon at Dalhousie University had explored this very question of canine's penchant for perfume in 1986. Their study wasn't with dogs—to the best of my knowledge, no controlled studies on scent-rubbing with domesticated dogs have ever been done—but with a very close relative instead: the wolf (Canis lupus).  Any comments . To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_55323_763515638.1311729301232 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_Part_55323_763515638.1311729301232-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:06:35 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Brad Johnston <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Before the bell rings MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-2025106685-1311735995=:83499" I didn't ask you what someone else thinks the past perfect is. --0-2025106685-1311735995=:83499 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Eduard, I didn't ask you what someone else thinks the past perfect is. I asked you what YOU think the past perfect is. Imagine you're teaching your 5th grade class. It is five minutes before the end of class. A student asks, What is the past perfect? What do you write on the board that they can scribble into their notebooks before the bell rings? Remember the man who wrote that he has heard more about the past perfect than a man should have to hear? I asked the same question of him. He did not reply. He won't reply because he doesn't know what it is either. Still. (If you say it is used to show that one thing happened before another, I will reply that "I went to the store and bought peaches", or perhaps "Eduard finished the definition before the bell rang".) ________________________________ From:�Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> To:�[log in to unmask] Sent:�Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:12 PM Subject:�Re: Past Perfect Definition and Usage Brad, � Here is something that is worth looking at: � From:�http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html � I hope this helps you to understand the past perfect and its usage in a sentence. � Eduard� To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-2025106685-1311735995=:83499 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-2025106685-1311735995=:83499-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 23:12:50 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Before the bell rings - a suggestion In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_a469389d-357e-4e40-be83-7765fec9cfd2_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_a469389d-357e-4e40-be83-7765fec9cfd2_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have a suggestion, and it may apply to a broader spectrum of list participants than just Brad and Eduard. It is simply this - please (1) do NOT simply refer us to somebody else's work (Eduard) and (2) do NOT merely ask/tell the other to show what they think is an example of the verb tense under consideraton (Brad). Instead, try option (3) - talk to the list rather than to each other; give us your own ideas; show us your own examples. In other words, state your position and construct an argument in support of it. When that happens (as it does many times on this list - I have several contributors in mind, it enlivens the discussion almost on a daily, even hourly basis. So gor my own benefit, I would love to see you two share examples of your ideas on tense usage (right and wrong) along with examples that you think demonstrate your respective points. I have a lot to learn about verb tenses - frequently I'm not sure about usage, and it seems that you both have a lot to share that would enhance my education; but that isn't ocurring with the current form of discussion. One of the benefits I find is that there are experts on this list who know a lot more than I do about a lot of things. So can you give that a shot - can you give us your expertise and try to teach us (me)? Would be appreciated! Geoff Layton Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 20:06:35 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Before the bell rings To: [log in to unmask] Eduard, I didn't ask you what someone else thinks the past perfect is. I asked you what YOU think the past perfect is. Imagine you're teaching your 5th grade class. It is five minutes before the end of class. A student asks, What is the past perfect? What do you write on the board that they can scribble into their notebooks before the bell rings? Remember the man who wrote that he has heard more about the past perfect than a man should have to hear? I asked the same question of him. He did not reply. He won't reply because he doesn't know what it is either. Still. (If you say it is used to show that one thing happened before another, I will reply that "I went to the store and bought peaches", or perhaps "Eduard finished the definition before the bell rang".) From: Eduard Hanganu <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2011 9:12 PM Subject: Re: Past Perfect Definition and Usage Brad, Here is something that is worth looking at: From: http://www.englishpage.com/verbpage/pastperfect.html I hope this helps you to understand the past perfect and its usage in a sentence. Eduard To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_a469389d-357e-4e40-be83-7765fec9cfd2_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_a469389d-357e-4e40-be83-7765fec9cfd2_-- ========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:27:58 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Worst advertisement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep seeing a billboard that says the following: $6avory sandwiches ('sandwiches' is a substitute for the real word to avoid lawsuits). $6 would be pronounced /siks dollahrz/ but its placement in an adjectival position (nouns can be used as adjectives but not normally as adverbs modifying a word in the adjectival position before a noun) Indicates that /siks dollahr/ would be the expected pronunciation. [a six-dollar hamburger-not a six-dollars hamburger] The ad writer apparently wanted the final consonant of the word before avory to carry over; unfortunately, /siks dollah ravory/ makes no sense and /siks dollah zavory/ is equally asinine. It seems as of the person trying to be cute and eye-catching succeeded in catching attention-but a WTH reaction does not inspire me to eat there. The only comments that I have heard on the billboard are along the line of "Is that stupid or what?" None of the commenter were grammarians or linguists but they felt intuitively that the sign made no sense. They all seemed dismissive or irritated at the sign-none seemed amused. Would anyone like to comment or add another nomination for worse ad of the year? Scott Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus history & languages To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0-- ========================================================================Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:52:03 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3 --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, I don't think I'd call it stupid or asinine. It may not be brilliantly clever, but it does make sense and contains wordplay, of at least the typographical variety, with the "6" functioning as both the number and the letter "S." It's a blend/portmanteau like "spork" and "brunch": "$6 Savory..." becomes "$6avory...." From the commercial point of view, it clearly got your attention, and that was undoubtedly the merchant's intention. I'd give it a B or B- rather than an F. Dick On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I keep seeing a billboard that says the following:**** > > ** ** > > $6avory sandwiches (�sandwiches� is a substitute for the real word to > avoid lawsuits).**** > > ** ** > > $6 would be pronounced /siks dollahrz/ but its placement in an adjectival > position (nouns can be used as adjectives but not normally as adverbs > modifying a word in the adjectival position before a noun) Indicates that > /siks dollahr/ would be the expected pronunciation. [a six-dollar > hamburger�not a six-dollars hamburger] The ad writer apparently wanted the > final consonant of the word before avory to carry over; unfortunately, /siks > dollah ravory/ makes no sense and /siks dollah zavory/ is equally asinine. > It seems as of the person trying to be cute and eye-catching succeeded in > catching attention�but a WTH reaction does not inspire me to eat there.*** > * > > The only comments that I have heard on the billboard are along the line of > �Is that stupid or what?� None of the commenter were grammarians or > linguists but they felt intuitively that the sign made no sense. They all > seemed dismissive or irritated at the sign�none seemed amused.**** > > ** ** > > Would anyone like to comment or add another nomination for worse ad of the > year?**** > > ** ** > > Scott**** > > ** ** > > Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD**** > > Professor Emeritus**** > > history & languages**** > > ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott,

I don't think I'd call it stupid or asinine. It may not be brilliantly clever, but it does make sense and contains wordplay, of at least the typographical variety, with the "6" functioning as both the number and the letter "S." It's a blend/portmanteau like "spork" and "brunch": "$6 Savory..." becomes "$6avory...."� From the commercial point of view, it clearly got your attention, and that was undoubtedly the merchant's intention. I'd give it a B or B- rather than an F.

Dick

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 10:48:54 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "T. J. Ray" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_SW_145016115_1312127334_mpa=" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_SW_145016115_1312127334_mpaContent-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by mualmarp02.mcs.muohio.edu id p6VFmuWV016096 May I be permitted to express my deep sadness that subscribers to this channel are now endorsing numerals as graphemes? Well, I just did so with no apology for the question. T. J. On Saturday 07/30/2011 at 11:01 am, Dick Veit wrote: > Scott, > > I don't think I'd call it stupid or asinine. It may not be brilliantly > clever, but it does make sense and contains wordplay, of at least the > typographical variety, with the "6" functioning as both the number and > the letter "S." It's a blend/portmanteau like "spork" and "brunch": > "$6 Savory..." becomes "$6avory...." From the commercial point of > view, it clearly got your attention, and that was undoubtedly the > merchant's intention. I'd give it a B or B- rather than an F. > > Dick > > > On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: >> >> >> >> I keep seeing a billboard that says the following: >> >> $6avory sandwiches (‘sandwiches’ is a substitute for the real >> word to avoid lawsuits). >> >> $6 would be pronounced /siks dollahrz/ but its placement in an >> adjectival position (nouns can be used as adjectives but not normally >> as adverbs modifying a word in the adjectival position before a noun) >> Indicates that /siks dollahr/ would be the expected pronunciation. [a >> six-dollar hamburger—not a six-dollars hamburger] The ad writer >> apparently wanted the final consonant of the word before avory to >> carry over; unfortunately, /siks dollah ravory/ makes no sense and >> /siks dollah zavory/ is equally asinine. It seems as of the person >> trying to be cute and eye-catching succeeded in catching >> attention—but a WTH reaction does not inspire me to eat there. >> The only comments that I have heard on the billboard are along the >> line of “Is that stupid or what?” None of the commenter were >> grammarians or linguists but they felt intuitively that the sign made >> no sense. They all seemed dismissive or irritated at the sign—none >> seemed amused. >> >> Would anyone like to comment or add another nomination for worse ad of >> the year? >> >> Scott >> >> Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD >> Professor Emeritus >> history & languages >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland select >> "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_145016115_1312127334_mpaContent-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable May I be permitted to express my deep sadness that subscribers to this channel

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_SW_145016115_1312127334_mpa=-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:53:50 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --002215974c8aad046604a95f8798 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Take a look at this article, about Google +1. What's in a verb? http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/07/31/1tastic/ Don Stewart www.writeforcollege.com www.writing123.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --002215974c8aad046604a95f8798 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Take a look at this article, about Google +1. What's in a verb?

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/07/31/1tastic/


Don Stewart
www.writeforcollege.com
www.writing123.com

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --002215974c8aad046604a95f8798-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 11:10:51 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary�aec529a00958c79104a95fc3bc --bcaec529a00958c79104a95fc3bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Great article! Thanks for sharing, Don! In my social circle, +[n], where n is often either 10, 20, or 50 depending on the level of compliment, is common. It definitely is more prominent in writing, such as in online game environments, but it bleeds over into speech. Just this morning a friend responded to something particularly witty in spoken conversation with a simple, "+10". So, +1 hasn't given me any grief in usage. Yet. John On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Take a look at this article, about Google +1. What's in a verb? > > http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/07/31/1tastic/ > > > Don Stewart > www.writeforcollege.com > www.writing123.com > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --bcaec529a00958c79104a95fc3bc Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great article! Thanks for sharing, Don!

In my social circle, +[n], where n is often either 10, 20, or 50 depending on the level of compliment, is common. It definitely is more prominent in writing, such as in online game environments, but it bleeds over into speech. Just this morning a friend responded to something particularly witty in spoken conversation with a simple, "+10". So, +1 hasn't given me any grief in usage. Yet.

John

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --bcaec529a00958c79104a95fc3bc-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 14:56:18 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement ATEG Digest - 27 Jul 2011 to 30 Jul 2011 (#2011-138) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I really like wordplay but you are ignoring the dollars: $6 is read in English as six dollars--not dollars six. This reads as if it were written by a non-native speaker of English. We used to speak "franglais" in college, using the French for very bad puns in English; however, none violated English syntax. -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2011 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 27 Jul 2011 to 30 Jul 2011 (#2011-138) There are 2 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Worst advertisement (2) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:27:58 -0400 From: Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Worst advertisement This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I keep seeing a billboard that says the following: $6avory sandwiches ('sandwiches' is a substitute for the real word to avoid lawsuits). $6 would be pronounced /siks dollahrz/ but its placement in an adjectival position (nouns can be used as adjectives but not normally as adverbs modifying a word in the adjectival position before a noun) Indicates that /siks dollahr/ would be the expected pronunciation. [a six-dollar hamburger-not a six-dollars hamburger] The ad writer apparently wanted the final consonant of the word before avory to carry over; unfortunately, /siks dollah ravory/ makes no sense and /siks dollah zavory/ is equally asinine. It seems as of the person trying to be cute and eye-catching succeeded in catching attention-but a WTH reaction does not inspire me to eat there. The only comments that I have heard on the billboard are along the line of "Is that stupid or what?" None of the commenter were grammarians or linguists but they felt intuitively that the sign made no sense. They all seemed dismissive or irritated at the sign-none seemed amused. Would anyone like to comment or add another nomination for worse ad of the year? Scott Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD Professor Emeritus history & languages To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0267_01CC4EAB.BBEB5CC0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 30 Jul 2011 11:52:03 -0400 From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, I don't think I'd call it stupid or asinine. It may not be brilliantly clever, but it does make sense and contains wordplay, of at least the typographical variety, with the "6" functioning as both the number and the letter "S." It's a blend/portmanteau like "spork" and "brunch": "$6 Savory..." becomes "$6avory...." From the commercial point of view, it clearly got your attention, and that was undoubtedly the merchant's intention. I'd give it a B or B- rather than an F. Dick On Sat, Jul 30, 2011 at 11:27 AM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I keep seeing a billboard that says the following:**** > > ** ** > > $6avory sandwiches (�sandwiches� is a substitute for the real word to > avoid lawsuits).**** > > ** ** > > $6 would be pronounced /siks dollahrz/ but its placement in an adjectival > position (nouns can be used as adjectives but not normally as adverbs > modifying a word in the adjectival position before a noun) Indicates that > /siks dollahr/ would be the expected pronunciation. [a six-dollar > hamburger�not a six-dollars hamburger] The ad writer apparently wanted the > final consonant of the word before avory to carry over; unfortunately, /siks > dollah ravory/ makes no sense and /siks dollah zavory/ is equally asinine. > It seems as of the person trying to be cute and eye-catching succeeded in > catching attention�but a WTH reaction does not inspire me to eat there.*** > * > > The only comments that I have heard on the billboard are along the line of > �Is that stupid or what?� None of the commenter were grammarians or > linguists but they felt intuitively that the sign made no sense. They all > seemed dismissive or irritated at the sign�none seemed amused.**** > > ** ** > > Would anyone like to comment or add another nomination for worse ad of the > year?**** > > ** ** > > Scott**** > > ** ** > > Norman Scott Catledge, PhD/STD**** > > Professor Emeritus**** > > history & languages**** > > ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott,

I don't think I'd call it stupid or asinine. It may not be brilliantly clever, but it does make sense and contains wordplay, of at least the typographical variety, with the "6" functioning as both the number and the letter "S." It's a blend/portmanteau like "spork" and "brunch": "$6 Savory..." becomes "$6avory...."� From the commercial point of view, it clearly got your attention, and that was undoubtedly the merchant's intention. I'd give it a B or B- rather than an F.

Dick

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --20cf30025aa21f385604a94b61e3-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 27 Jul 2011 to 30 Jul 2011 (#2011-138) *********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 15:15:08 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: "bolt upright: (was: Worst advertisement) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --00151758adb233bd6c04a962555d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don: I enjoyed Ben Zimmer's article about Google +1, quite a coincidence since I had just finished reading another article by Zimmer and writing a response to him. I recommend his article in today's *NY Times Sunday Book Review*showing that--contrary to the claims of some literary critics--the language of fiction, even naturalistic or "colloquial" fiction, differs substantially from the language of speech or of nonfiction. He shows that phrases like "bolt upright" occur with far greater frequency in novels than in speech. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/31/books/review/the-mechanic-muse-the-jargon-of-the-novel-computed.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=review I wrote Zimmer about his own use of "bolt upright" in the article: Dear Mr. Zimmer, I greatly enjoyed your *NYT* piece today. One thing that made me sit bolt upright, however, was that you treated "bolt upright" as a verb. This took me aback because I couldn't remember encountering the phrase as anything but an adverbial (*He sat bolt upright*), with "bolt" as a degree adverb modifying "upright." The *OED* gives citations of adverbial "bolt upright" dating back to Chaucer. The *OED* also cites �bolt upright� as a verb but calls it "obs[olete] or arc[haic]." The most recent citation was an 1815 quotation from Smollett: �The patient, bolting upright in the bed, collared each of these assistants with the grasp of Hercules.� Surprisingly there was also a citation for *transitive *�bolt upright�: �Tales ... That bolt like hedge-hog-quills the hair upright.� I also Googled �to bolt upright� and did find modern instances, such as �At the first crack of spring, the world seems to bolt upright, as if waking from a dream.� Your own usage is further indication that verbal "bolt upright" may be archaic no longer. Best wishes, Dick Veit On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:53 AM, Don Stewart <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Take a look at this article, about Google +1. What's in a verb? > > http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2011/07/31/1tastic/ > > > Don Stewart > www.writeforcollege.com > www.writing123.com > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --00151758adb233bd6c04a962555d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Don:

I enjoyed Ben Zimmer's article about Google +1, quite a coincidence since I had just finished reading another article by Zimmer and writing a response to him. I recommend his article in today's NY Times Sunday Book Review showing that--contrary to the claims of some literary critics--the language of fiction, even naturalistic or "colloquial" fiction, differs substantially from the language of speech or of nonfiction. He shows that phrases like "bolt upright" occur with far greater frequency in novels than in speech.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/31/books/review/the-mechanic-muse-the-jargon-of-the-novel-computed.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=review

I wrote Zimmer about his own use of "bolt upright" in the article:

Dear Mr. Zimmer,

�

I greatly enjoyed your NYT piece today.

�

One thing that made me sit bolt upright, however, was that you treated "bolt upright" as a verb. This took me aback because I couldn't remember encountering the phrase as anything but an adverbial (He sat bolt upright), with "bolt" as a degree adverb modifying "upright." The OED gives citations of adverbial "bolt upright" dating back to Chaucer. The OED also cites �bolt upright� as a verb but calls it "obs[olete] or arc[haic]." The most recent citation was an 1815 quotation from Smollett: �The patient, bolting upright in the bed, collared each of these assistants with the grasp of Hercules.� Surprisingly there was also a citation for transitive �bolt upright�: �Tales ... That bolt like hedge-hog-quills the hair upright.�

�

I also Googled �to bolt upright� and did find modern instances, such as �At the first crack of spring, the world seems to bolt upright, as if waking from a dream.� Your own usage is further indication that verbal "bolt upright" may be archaic no longer.

�

Best wishes,

Dick Veit

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --00151758adb233bd6c04a962555d-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 21:35:58 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --000e0ce0d8ac30f5ed04a967a7b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Scott: I've never seen the ad in question, but I gather that the $ sign is a superscript, and it looked something like this: $6avory sandwiches I think what our correspondence is showing is not that one of us is right and the other wrong, but that different people's neural wiring and visual perceptions are different. I'm guessing that when a significant number of people (including you) look at it, the word "savory" is not immediately apparent to them, while another group (including me and the ad's creator) see both "$6" and "savory" right away. If so, the ad will only be effective for the latter group. If the former group is large, then the merchant should abandon the ad. It's probably also true that a 6 looks more like an "S" in some type face than others. Dick On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Scott Catledge <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I really like wordplay but you are ignoring the dollars: $6 is read in > English as six dollars--not dollars six. This reads as > if it were written by a non-native speaker of English. We used to speak > "franglais" in college, using the French for very bad > puns in English; however, none violated English syntax. > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --000e0ce0d8ac30f5ed04a967a7b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott:

I've never seen the ad in question, but I gather that the $ sign is a superscript, and it looked something like this:

^$6avory sandwiches

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --000e0ce0d8ac30f5ed04a967a7b7-- ========================================================================Date: Sun, 31 Jul 2011 22:08:55 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Worst advertisement In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary --0016e6de03a40ccbe304a9681d89 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 T.J., My experience of numerals as graphemes goes back a half-century to my grade school days, when female classmates wrote in each other's memory books phrases like "2 young 2 B in love." The memory causes me no "deep sadness," not even for the triteness of the sentiments. Today I see lots of numerical rebuses on vanity license plates ("GR8FUL"). Wasn't it the rebus principle that gave us our alphabet, when some clever Semite decided to use the Egyptian ox character to represent the vowel it sounded like, the end result being our Roman letter A? I also see graphemes used for visual effect. The title of a best-selling book about the financial meltdown appears on its cover as "RECKLES$ ENDANGERMENT," with the dollar sign skewed as if tumbling downward. Am I "endorsing numerals as graphemes"? Well, I guess I am, when they are used cleverly and interestingly in appropriate situations. One of our tasks as educators is to guide students to understand that different media have different conventions. What is standard in a tweet or a Facebook posting can be nonstandard in a term paper. For that matter, a style that is appropriate in an email to a close friend would be inappropriate in an ATEG email. After a few mistakes, most students quickly learn the boundaries. I think you need not worry that we are polluting the language or corrupting minds. Dick On Sun, Jul 31, 2011 at 11:48 AM, T. J. Ray <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > May I be permitted to express my deep sadness that subscribers to this > channel > are now endorsing numerals as graphemes? Well, I just did so with no > apology > for the question. > > T. J. > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6de03a40ccbe304a9681d89 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable T.J.,

My experience of numerals as graphemes goes back a half-century to my grade school days, when female classmates wrote in each other's memory books phrases like "2 young 2 B in love." The memory causes me no "deep sadness," not even for the triteness of the sentiments. Today I see lots of numerical rebuses on vanity license plates ("GR8FUL"). Wasn't it the rebus principle that gave us our alphabet, when some clever Semite decided to use the Egyptian ox character to represent the vowel it sounded like, the end result being our Roman letter A?

I also see graphemes used for visual effect. The title of a best-selling book about the financial meltdown appears on its cover as "RECKLES$ ENDANGERMENT," with the dollar sign skewed as if tumbling downward.

Am I "endorsing numerals as graphemes"? Well, I guess I am, when they are used cleverly and interestingly in appropriate situations. One of our tasks as educators is to guide students to understand that different media have different conventions. What is standard in a tweet or a Facebook posting can be nonstandard in a term paper. For that matter, a style that is appropriate in an email to a close friend would be inappropriate in an ATEG email. After a few mistakes, most students quickly learn the boundaries. I think you need not worry that we are polluting the language or corrupting minds.

Dick

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0016e6de03a40ccbe304a9681d89--