Although my doctoral dissertation in contrastive linguistics was on discrepant subcategorization of nouns in Spanish and English, not being a Chomskyite, my druthers would go with the grammarians--not my fellow linguists. My only linguistics group is SIAD (Société Internationale de Diachronie du Français). I have, however, heard enough on the past perfect and delete any discussions pertaining thereto. Scott -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2011 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 19 Jul 2011 to 20 Jul 2011 (#2011-132) There are 3 messages totalling 1190 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. How to deal with a crackpot (3) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 15:58:13 +0300 From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot Larry, I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect. If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done on other lists in response to similar complaints. Mark On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us > identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of > the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are > practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and > changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often > does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think > it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I > might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting > to some minor disputes. > > If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and > linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one > also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various > sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences. > > I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature > and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and > rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this > list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good > discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've > grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone. > > Larry > > ____________________________ > Larry Beason, Associate Professor > Director of Composition > University of South Alabama > Mobile, AL 36688-0002 > Office: 251-460-7861 > FAX: 251-461-1517 > > > >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>> > Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list > manager. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to > the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would > like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for > grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from > linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the > list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way, > then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the > suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the > past. > > Craig > > > > On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote: > I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete > some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who > make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it. > > Carole > > From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about > "All Gaul is divided". > > Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to > be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me. > > (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems > that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo > address. Nothing evil or devious about it.) > > "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated > in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in > their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if > they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will > withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below. > > .brad.18july11. > > ________________________________ > From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM > Subject: How to deal with a crackpot > Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a > filter on my email account to block his messages? > > Answers: > 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too). > 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people > realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no > matter what crazy things he says to provoke you. > > ~~~~~ > > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700 > From: Brad Johnston > <[log in to unmask]><mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: All Gaul is divided > Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I > hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the > goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and > figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another. > > Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions > came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people > actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to > agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have > different training, different interests, and different goals. They look > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what > joins us together (prescriptive grammar). > > When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of > their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists, > "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's > interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising > Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't > what makes the grammar world go around. > > The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their > exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in > the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve > the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who > each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar. > > The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but > since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it > not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the > linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things > that interest them? > > br-had.sun.17july11. > . > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > -- [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31:46 -0700 From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot --0-905509043-1311175906=:63679 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not all =0Agr= ammarians are prescriptivists. =0A=0A=0APaul D.=0A=A0"If this were play'd u= pon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable =0Afiction" (_Twelfth = Night_ 3.4.127-128). =0A=0A=0A=0A=0A=0A________________________________=0AF= rom: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]>=0ATo: [log in to unmask] t: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM=0ASubject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot= =0A=0ALarry,=0A=0AI agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the= ATEG list is=0Aenriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is= saying below=0Ain All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescript= ivist=0Agrammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've hear= d=0Amuch more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.=0A=0AIf = I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane=0Atangents,"= but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a=0Aprescriptive gramma= r list and invite participants. I have seen this done=0Aon other lists in r= esponse to similar complaints.=0A=0AMark=0A=0AOn Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -05= 00, "Larry Beason" <[log in to unmask]>=0Awrote:=0A> I'd suggest we not s= plit the list, esp since I think a number of us=0A> identify with both gram= marians and linguists.=A0 Setting aside a portion of=0A> the list is in eff= ect creating a new list within a list, and there are=0A> practical problems= .=A0 For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and=0A> changes, will new= comers know there are essentially two lists?=A0 How often=0A> does the list= manager have to update and revise these sub-lists?=A0 I think=0A> it's a b= it much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters.=A0 I=0A> might b= e missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting=0A> to som= e minor disputes.=0A> =0A> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devot= ed to grammar and=0A> linguistics--fine.=A0 I think a number of us would wa= nt to join that one=0A> also.=A0 But I for one see no reason to encourage c= reating various=0A> sub-groups that have far more in common than they have = differences.=A0 =0A> =0A> I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a s= plit between literature=0A> and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a spli= t between composition and=0A> rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to= me the splitting of this=0A> list into grammarians vs linguists is not pro= ductive to either good=0A> discussions of language or to our scholarly and = teaching community.=A0 I've=0A> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and = I suspect I'm not alone.=0A> =0A> Larry=0A> =0A> __________________________= __=0A> Larry Beason, Associate Professor=0A> Director of Composition=0A> Un= iversity of South Alabama=0A> Mobile, AL 36688-0002=0A> Office: 251-460-786= 1=0A> FAX: 251-461-1517=0A> =0A> =0A> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <Jack.Dixon@LONESTA= R.EDU> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>>=0A> Excellent suggestion.=A0 =A0 Grammarians,= communicate directly with the list=0A> manager.=0A> =0A> From: Assembly fo= r the Teaching of English Grammar=0A> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On = Behalf Of Craig Hancock=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM=0A> To: AT= [log in to unmask] =0A> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> = =0A>=A0 =A0 If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directl= y to=0A>=A0 =A0 the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us w= ho would=0A>=A0 =A0 like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set asi= de for=0A>=A0 =A0 grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without comme= ntary from=0A>=A0 =A0 linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that = directly to the=0A>=A0 =A0 list manager. If there are a large number among = us who feel that way,=0A>=A0 =A0 then the list manager could let that be kn= own, and we could take the=0A>=A0 =A0 suggestion seriously. If not, then le= t's continue as we have in the=0A>=A0 =A0 past.=0A> =0A> Craig=0A> =0A> =0A= > =0A> On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:=0A> I would appreciate = discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete=0A> some emails and may= need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who=0A> make positive cho= ices in their responses. I appreciate it.=0A> =0A> Carole=0A> =0A> From: Br= ad Johnston<mailto:[log in to unmask]>=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 1= 1:05 AM=0A> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>= =0A> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> =0A> Note this, Geoffrey.= See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about=0A> "All Gaul is divided= ".=0A> =0A> Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No on= e likes to=0A> be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.=0A> =0A>= (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems=0A= > that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo=0A> a= ddress.=A0 Nothing evil or devious about it.)=0A> =0A> "exactly what he wan= ts", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated=0A> in All Gaul is divi= ded. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in=0A> their hen house,= Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if=0A> they want me in= their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will=0A> withdraw with con= siderably more good grace that you exhibit below.=0A> =0A> .brad.18july11.= =0A> =0A> ________________________________=0A> From: Dick Veit <dickveit@GM= AIL.COM><mailto:[log in to unmask]>=0A> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto= :[log in to unmask]>=0A> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM=0A> Sub= ject: How to deal with a crackpot=0A> Why am I again getting mail from our = resident crackpot, when I put a=0A> filter on my email account to block his= messages?=0A> =0A> Answers:=0A> 1. He changed his email address (so I will= now block the new one too).=0A> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his ma= il. At long last, can't people=0A> realize that it is exactly what he wants= ? Just stop responding to him, no=0A> matter what crazy things he says to p= rovoke you.=0A> =0A> ~~~~~=0A> =0A> Date:=A0 =A0 Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 = -0700=0A> From:=A0 =A0 Brad Johnston=0A> <[log in to unmask]><mailto:br.= [log in to unmask]>=0A> Subject: All Gaul is divided=0A> Regarding the poss= ible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I=0A> hope will be consi= dered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the=0A> goal of grammar is= that we all might be on the same page, literally and=0A> figuratively, so = that we might be better able to understand one another.=0A> =0A> Understand= ing one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions=0A> came from= as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people=0A> actually say = and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to=0A> agree on wh= at makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have=0A> different= training, different interests, and different goals. They look=0A> at what = divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what=0A> joins= us together (prescriptive grammar).=0A> =0A> When the linguists, who domin= ate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of=0A> their arcane tangents, the gram= marians politely say to the linguists,=0A> "that's interesting", but it's r= ather like a corn farmer saying "that's=0A> interesting" to a cattle ranche= r who describes the particulars of raising=0A> Holsteins. What interests th= e linguists IS interesting, it just isn't=0A> what makes the grammar world = go around.=0A> =0A> The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to c= arry on their=0A> exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians t= end to lurk in=0A> the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way= to better serve=0A> the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this c= ountry, and who=0A> each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching gr= ammar.=0A> =0A> The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe= they do, but=0A> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Gr= ammar, why is it=0A> not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English = Grammar and let the=0A> linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different v= enue, those things=0A> that interest them?=0A> =0A> br-had.sun.17july11.=0A= > .=0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w= eb=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and sele= ct=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://at= eg.org/ =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w= eb=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and sele= ct=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://at= eg.org/ =0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the lis= t's web=0A> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and= select=0A> "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http= ://ateg.org/ =0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit th= e list's web=0A> interface at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/ar= chives/ateg.html =0A> and select "Join or leave the list"=0A> =0A> Visit AT= EG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A> =0A> To join or leave this LISTSERV l= ist, please visit the list's web=0A> interface at:=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 http://li= stserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A> and select "Join or leave the list= "=0A> =0A> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/=0A> =0A--=0Amcjsa@123m= ail.org=0A=0ATo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's w= eb interface at:=0A=A0 =A0 http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html=0A= and select "Join or leave the list"=0A=0AVisit ATEG's web site at http://at= eg.org/=0A To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-905509043-1311175906=:63679 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he= ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, seri= f;font-size:12pt"><DIV></DIV>=0A<DIV>I'm not sure why nobody has said this = on this thread yet, but not all grammarians are prescriptivists. </DIV>=0A<= DIV> </DIV>=0A<DIV>Paul D.<BR> </DIV><FONT size=3D2 face=3D"tahom= a, new york, times, serif">"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could c= ondemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</FONT> = =0A<DIV><BR></DIV>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york= , times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><BR>=0A<DIV style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: bookman = old style, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><FONT size=3D2 face=3DT= ahoma>=0A<HR SIZE=3D1>=0A<B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN><= /B> M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]><BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-WEIGH= T: bold">To:</SPAN></B> [log in to unmask]<BR><B><SPAN style=3D"FONT-= WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM<BR><B><SPAN st= yle=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: How to deal with a crackp= ot<BR></FONT><BR>Larry,<BR><BR>I agree with you about dual sympathies and t= hink that the ATEG list is<BR>enriched by a variety of opinion. I understan= d what Brad is saying below<BR>in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a gro= up of prescriptivist<BR>grammarians would have do to, other than prescribin= g, and I've heard<BR>much more than anyone ever should hear about the past = perfect.<BR><BR>If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "= arcane<BR>tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a<B= R>prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done<= BR>on other lists in response to similar complaints.<BR><BR>Mark<BR><BR>On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:= 08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailt= o=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>wrote:<BR= >> I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us<B= R>> identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a = portion of<BR>> the list is in effect creating a new list within a list,= and there are<BR>> practical problems. For instance, as the overa= ll ATEG list grows and<BR>> changes, will newcomers know there are essen= tially two lists? How often<BR>> does the list manager have to upd= ate and revise these sub-lists? I think<BR>> it's a bit much to as= k list managers to keep up with such matters. I<BR>> might be miss= ing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting<BR>> to some = minor disputes.<BR>> <BR>> If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and<BR>> linguistics--fine. I think a num= ber of us would want to join that one<BR>> also. But I for one see= no reason to encourage creating various<BR>> sub-groups that have far m= ore in common than they have differences. <BR>> <BR>> I've spen= d most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature<BR>> and= composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and<BR>&g= t; rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this<B= R>> list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good<= BR>> discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community.= I've<BR>> grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'= m not alone.<BR>> <BR>> Larry<BR>> <BR>> ______________________= ______<BR>> Larry Beason, Associate Professor<BR>> Director of Compos= ition<BR>> University of South Alabama<BR>> Mobile, AL 36688-0002<BR>> Office: 251-460-7861<BR>> FAX: 251-461-1517<BR>> = <BR>> <BR>> >>> "Dixon, Jack" <<A href=3D"mailto:Jack.Dix= [log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">Jack.Dixon@LONE= STAR.EDU</A>> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>><BR>> Excellent suggesti= on. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list<BR>> ma= nager.<BR>> <BR>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<= BR>> [mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mail= to:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>] On Behalf Of Cra= ig Hancock<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM<BR>> To: <A href= =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] .EDU">[log in to unmask]</A> <BR>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a= crackpot<BR>> <BR>> If I am not mistaken, it is possibl= e to direct messages directly to<BR>> the keeper of the lis= t. If there are grammarians among us who would<BR>> like to see = the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for<BR>> gram= marians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from<BR>>&nbs= p; linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to = the<BR>> list manager. If there are a large number among us= who feel that way,<BR>> then the list manager could let th= at be known, and we could take the<BR>> suggestion seriousl= y. If not, then let's continue as we have in the<BR>> past.= <BR>> <BR>> Craig<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> <BR>> On 7/18/2011 12:= 39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:<BR>> I would appreciate discussions to be r= espectful and positive. I delete<BR>> some emails and may need to use a = filter or block. Thanks to members who<BR>> make positive choices in the= ir responses. I appreciate it.<BR>> <BR>> Carole<BR>> <BR>> From: Brad Johnston<mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:br.hadvines@YAHOO= .COM" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>>= ;<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM<BR>> To: <A href=3D"mailt= o:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATE= [log in to unmask]</A><mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] EDU" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</= A>><BR>> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot<BR>> <BR>> No= te this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about<BR>>= ; "All Gaul is divided".<BR>> <BR>> Bully the chickens and they won't= reply. They just won't. No one likes to<BR>> be bullied as Dick Veit li= kes to [try to] bully me.<BR>> <BR>> (I changed email addresses becau= se Internet Explorer is having problems<BR>> that effect my old address.= I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo<BR>> address. Nothing evi= l or devious about it.)<BR>> <BR>> "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is ver= y clearly, and reasonably, stated<BR>> in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, ju= st maybe, the chickens don't want you in<BR>> their hen house, Dick. If = you ever ask them what they want, ask them if<BR>> they want me in their= hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will<BR>> withdraw with consi= derably more good grace that you exhibit below.<BR>> <BR>> .brad.18ju= ly11.<BR>> <BR>> ________________________________<BR>> From: Dick = Veit <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:dickveit@G= MAIL.COM">[log in to unmask]</A>><mailto:<A href=3D"mailto:dickveit@G= MAIL.COM" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><= BR>> To: <A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:A= [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A><mailto:<A href=3D"= mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>&g= t;<BR>> Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM<BR>> Subject: How to dea= l with a crackpot<BR>> Why am I again getting mail from our resident cra= ckpot, when I put a<BR>> filter on my email account to block his message= s?<BR>> <BR>> Answers:<BR>> 1. He changed his email address (so I = will now block the new one too).<BR>> 2. Non-crackpots keep responding t= o his mail. At long last, can't people<BR>> realize that it is exactly w= hat he wants? Just stop responding to him, no<BR>> matter what crazy thi= ngs he says to provoke you.<BR>> <BR>> ~~~~~<BR>> <BR>> Date:&n= bsp; Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700<BR>> From: Brad= Johnston<BR>> <<A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"m= ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><mailto:<A hre= f=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</A>><BR>= > Subject: All Gaul is divided<BR>> Regarding the possible division o= f the two main parts of ATEG, which I<BR>> hope will be considered at th= e annual meeting, it seems to me that the<BR>> goal of grammar is that w= e all might be on the same page, literally and<BR>> figuratively, so tha= t we might be better able to understand one another.<BR>> <BR>> Under= standing one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions<BR>> = came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people<BR>> = actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to<BR= >> agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists h= ave<BR>> different training, different interests, and different goals. T= hey look<BR>> at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarian= s look for what<BR>> joins us together (prescriptive grammar).<BR>> <BR>> When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG lists= erv, go off on one of<BR>> their arcane tangents, the grammarians polite= ly say to the linguists,<BR>> "that's interesting", but it's rather like= a corn farmer saying "that's<BR>> interesting" to a cattle rancher who = describes the particulars of raising<BR>> Holsteins. What interests the = linguists IS interesting, it just isn't<BR>> what makes the grammar worl= d go around.<BR>> <BR>> The demonstrable result is that the linguists= tend to carry on their<BR>> exotic discussions on this listserv and the= grammarians tend to lurk in<BR>> the shadows. I propose to you that the= re should be a way to better serve<BR>> the grammarians, of whom there a= re thousands in this country, and who<BR>> each have questions about the= day-to-day of teaching grammar.<BR>> <BR>> The grammarians can go so= mewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but<BR>> since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it<BR>> not= appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the<BR>&= gt; linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things<B= R>> that interest them?<BR>> <BR>> br-had.sun.17july11.<BR>> .<= BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list= 's web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives= /ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</= A> and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG'= s web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/= </A> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's = web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/at= eg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> = and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's w= eb site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A> = <BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the lis= t's web<BR>> interface at: <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archive= s/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html<= /A> and select<BR>> "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG= 's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org= /</A> <BR>> <BR>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit t= he list's web<BR>> interface at:<BR>> <A href=3D"= http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://lists= erv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A> <BR>> and select "Join or leave th= e list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.or= g/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>> <BR>> To join or leave = this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<BR>> interface at:<BR>&g= t; <A href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" ta= rget=3D_blank>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>> and= select "Join or leave the list"<BR>> <BR>> Visit ATEG's web site at = <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>http://ateg.org/</A><BR>> <= BR>--<BR><A href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" ymailto=3D"mailto:mcjsa@123ma= il.org">[log in to unmask]</A><BR><BR>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, p= lease visit the list's web interface at:<BR> <A href=3D"http:/= /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D_blank>http://listserv.mu= ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</A><BR>and select "Join or leave the list"<BR><= BR>Visit ATEG's web site at <A href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D_blank>ht= tp://ateg.org/</A><BR></DIV></DIV></div></body></html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --0-905509043-1311175906=:63679-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 01:02:45 +0300 From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --_----------=_1311199365208101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:02:45 -0400 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists. I was referring to Brad's dichotomy: > They [linguists] look > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what > joins us together (prescriptive grammar). Mark "The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately, in England at any rate, education has no effect whastoever." - Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest" On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not all grammarians are prescriptivists. Paul D. "If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128). ____________________________________________________________ From: M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot Larry, I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect. If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done on other lists in response to similar complaints. Mark On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <[1][log in to unmask]> wrote: > I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us > identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of > the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are > practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and > changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often > does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think > it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I > might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting > to some minor disputes. > > If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and > linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one > also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various > sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences. > > I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature > and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and > rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this > list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good > discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've > grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone. > > Larry > > ____________________________ > Larry Beason, Associate Professor > Director of Composition > University of South Alabama > Mobile, AL 36688-0002 > Office: 251-460-7861 > FAX: 251-461-1517 > > > >>> "Dixon, Jack" <[2][log in to unmask]> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>> > Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list > manager. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[3][log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [4][log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to > the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would > like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for > grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from > linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the > list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way, > then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the > suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the > past. > > Craig > > > > On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote: > I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete > some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who > make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it. > > Carole > > From: Brad Johnston<mailto:[5][log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM > To: [6][log in to unmask]<mailto:[7][log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot > > Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about > "All Gaul is divided". > > Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to > be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me. > > (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems > that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo > address. Nothing evil or devious about it.) > > "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated > in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in > their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if > they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will > withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below. > > .brad.18july11. > > ________________________________ > From: Dick Veit <[8][log in to unmask]><mailto:[9][log in to unmask]> > To: [10][log in to unmask]<mailto:[11][log in to unmask]> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM > Subject: How to deal with a crackpot > Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a > filter on my email account to block his messages? > > Answers: > 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too). > 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people > realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no > matter what crazy things he says to provoke you. > > ~~~~~ > > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700 > From: Brad Johnston > <[12][log in to unmask]><mailto:[13][log in to unmask]> > Subject: All Gaul is divided > Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I > hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the > goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and > figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another. > > Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions > came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people > actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to > agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have > different training, different interests, and different goals. They look > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what > joins us together (prescriptive grammar). > > When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of > their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists, > "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's > interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising > Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't > what makes the grammar world go around. > > The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their > exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in > the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve > the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who > each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar. > > The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but > since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it > not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the > linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things > that interest them? > > br-had.sun.17july11. > . > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: [14]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at [15]http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: [16]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at [17]http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: [18]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at [19]http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > [20]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at [21]http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: > [22]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at [23]http://ateg.org/ > -- [24][log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: [25]http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at [26]http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ References 1. mailto:[log in to unmask] 2. mailto:[log in to unmask] 3. mailto:[log in to unmask] 4. mailto:[log in to unmask] 5. mailto:[log in to unmask] 6. mailto:[log in to unmask] 7. mailto:[log in to unmask] 8. mailto:[log in to unmask] 9. mailto:[log in to unmask] 10. mailto:[log in to unmask] 11. mailto:[log in to unmask] 12. mailto:[log in to unmask] 13. mailto:[log in to unmask] 14. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 15. http://ateg.org/ 16. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 17. http://ateg.org/ 18. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 19. http://ateg.org/ 20. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 21. http://ateg.org/ 22. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 23. http://ateg.org/ 24. mailto:[log in to unmask] 25. http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html 26. http://ateg.org/ -- [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_----------=_1311199365208101 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:02:45 -0400 X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface <!--/*SC*/DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/loose.dtd"/*EC*/--> <html><head><title></title><style type="text/css"><!-- body{padding:1ex;margin:0;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:small}a[href]{col or:-moz-hyperlinktext!important;text-decoration:-moz-anchor-decoration}block quote{margin:0;border-left:2px solid #144fae;padding-left:1em}blockquote blockquote{border-color:#006312}blockquote blockquote blockquote{border-color:#540000} --></style></head><body><div style="font-family: Arial; font-size: medium;" dir="ltr"><div> I didn't mean to imply that grammarians must be prescriptivists. I was referring to Brad's dichotomy:</div> <div> </div> <div> > They [linguists] look<br /> > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what<br /> > joins us together (prescriptive grammar).</div> <div> </div> <div> Mark</div> <div> </div> <div> "The whole theory of modern education is radically unsound. Fortunately, in England at any rate, education has no effect whastoever."</div> <div> - Lady Bracknell in "The Importance of Being Earnest"</div> <div> </div> <div class="defangedMessage"> <div id="me52499"> <div> On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 08:31 -0700, "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:</div> <blockquote class="me52499QuoteMessage" type="cite"> <style type="text/css"><!-- --></style> <div style="font-family:bookman old style, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"> <div> </div> <div> I'm not sure why nobody has said this on this thread yet, but not all grammarians are prescriptivists.</div> <div> </div> <div> Paul D.<br /> </div> <span style="font-size: small; font-family: tahoma," new york"," times"," serif"; ">"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).</span> <div> </div> <div style="FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <br /> <div style="FONT-FAMILY: bookman old style, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <hr size="1" /> <span style="font-size: small; font-family: Tahoma; "><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></span> M C Johnstone <[log in to unmask]><br /> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></span> [log in to unmask]<br /> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></span> Wed, July 20, 2011 8:58:13 AM<br /> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></span> Re: How to deal with a crackpot</span><br /> <br /> Larry,<br /> <br /> I agree with you about dual sympathies and think that the ATEG list is<br /> enriched by a variety of opinion. I understand what Brad is saying below<br /> in All Gaul although I'm not sure what a group of prescriptivist<br /> grammarians would have do to, other than prescribing, and I've heard<br /> much more than anyone ever should hear about the past perfect.<br /> <br /> If I had my druthers, I'd go with the linguists and their "arcane<br /> tangents," but it needn't come to that. Brad can easily start a<br /> prescriptive grammar list and invite participants. I have seen this done<br /> on other lists in response to similar complaints.<br /> <br /> Mark<br /> <br /> On Mon, 18 Jul 2011 13:08 -0500, "Larry Beason" <<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> wrote:<br /> > I'd suggest we not split the list, esp since I think a number of us<br /> > identify with both grammarians and linguists. Setting aside a portion of<br /> > the list is in effect creating a new list within a list, and there are<br /> > practical problems. For instance, as the overall ATEG list grows and<br /> > changes, will newcomers know there are essentially two lists? How often<br /> > does the list manager have to update and revise these sub-lists? I think<br /> > it's a bit much to ask list managers to keep up with such matters. I<br /> > might be missing something, but it seems to me it would be overreacting<br /> > to some minor disputes.<br /> ><br /> > If someone wants to create a non-ATEG list devoted to grammar and<br /> > linguistics--fine. I think a number of us would want to join that one<br /> > also. But I for one see no reason to encourage creating various<br /> > sub-groups that have far more in common than they have differences. <br /> ><br /> > I've spend most of my career in the shadow of a split between literature<br /> > and composition/rhetoric faculty (if not a split between composition and<br /> > rhetoric, for heaven's sake), and it seems to me the splitting of this<br /> > list into grammarians vs linguists is not productive to either good<br /> > discussions of language or to our scholarly and teaching community. I've<br /> > grown tired of such false dichotomies, and I suspect I'm not alone.<br /> ><br /> > Larry<br /> ><br /> > ____________________________<br /> > Larry Beason, Associate Professor<br /> > Director of Composition<br /> > University of South Alabama<br /> > Mobile, AL 36688-0002<br /> > Office: 251-460-7861<br /> > FAX: 251-461-1517<br /> ><br /> ><br /> > >>> "Dixon, Jack" <<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>> 7/18/2011 12:42 PM >>><br /> > Excellent suggestion. Grammarians, communicate directly with the list<br /> > manager.<br /> ><br /> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar<br /> > [mailto:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of Craig Hancock<br /> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:47 AM<br /> > To: <a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br /> > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot<br /> ><br /> > If I am not mistaken, it is possible to direct messages directly to<br /> > the keeper of the list. If there are grammarians among us who would<br /> > like to see the list (or a portion of the list) set aside for<br /> > grammarians only (as Brad would define it), without commentary from<br /> > linguists, then perhaps they should communicate that directly to the<br /> > list manager. If there are a large number among us who feel that way,<br /> > then the list manager could let that be known, and we could take the<br /> > suggestion seriously. If not, then let's continue as we have in the<br /> > past.<br /> ><br /> > Craig<br /> ><br /> ><br /> ><br /> > On 7/18/2011 12:39 PM, Carole Hurlbut wrote:<br /> > I would appreciate discussions to be respectful and positive. I delete<br /> > some emails and may need to use a filter or block. Thanks to members who<br /> > make positive choices in their responses. I appreciate it.<br /> ><br /> > Carole<br /> ><br /> > From: Brad Johnston<mailto:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:05 AM<br /> > To: <a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailt o:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> > Subject: Re: How to deal with a crackpot<br /> ><br /> > Note this, Geoffrey. See what I mean? There's nothing "crackpot" about<br /> > "All Gaul is divided".<br /> ><br /> > Bully the chickens and they won't reply. They just won't. No one likes to<br /> > be bullied as Dick Veit likes to [try to] bully me.<br /> ><br /> > (I changed email addresses because Internet Explorer is having problems<br /> > that effect my old address. I now use Google Chrome and a new Yahoo<br /> > address. Nothing evil or devious about it.)<br /> ><br /> > "exactly what he wants", b.t.w, is very clearly, and reasonably, stated<br /> > in All Gaul is divided. Maybe, just maybe, the chickens don't want you in<br /> > their hen house, Dick. If you ever ask them what they want, ask them if<br /> > they want me in their hen house. If they (grammarians) don't, I will<br /> > withdraw with considerably more good grace that you exhibit below.<br /> ><br /> > .brad.18july11.<br /> ><br /> > ________________________________<br /> > From: Dick Veit <<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><mailto:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> > To: <a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailt o:<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> > Sent: Monday, July 18, 2011 11:28 AM<br /> > Subject: How to deal with a crackpot<br /> > Why am I again getting mail from our resident crackpot, when I put a<br /> > filter on my email account to block his messages?<br /> ><br /> > Answers:<br /> > 1. He changed his email address (so I will now block the new one too).<br /> > 2. Non-crackpots keep responding to his mail. At long last, can't people<br /> > realize that it is exactly what he wants? Just stop responding to him, no<br /> > matter what crazy things he says to provoke you.<br /> ><br /> > ~~~~~<br /> ><br /> > Date: Sun, 17 Jul 2011 06:35:31 -0700<br /> > From: Brad Johnston<br /> > <<a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><mailto: <a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>><br /> > Subject: All Gaul is divided<br /> > Regarding the possible division of the two main parts of ATEG, which I<br /> > hope will be considered at the annual meeting, it seems to me that the<br /> > goal of grammar is that we all might be on the same page, literally and<br /> > figuratively, so that we might be better able to understand one another.<br /> ><br /> > Understanding one another doesn't depend on where words and conventions<br /> > came from as much as what they mean. Linguists look at what people<br /> > actually say and write, (and said and wrote), whereas grammarians try to<br /> > agree on what makes sense to most of us most of the time. Linguists have<br /> > different training, different interests, and different goals. They look<br /> > at what divides us (descriptive grammar), while grammarians look for what<br /> > joins us together (prescriptive grammar).<br /> ><br /> > When the linguists, who dominate the ATEG listserv, go off on one of<br /> > their arcane tangents, the grammarians politely say to the linguists,<br /> > "that's interesting", but it's rather like a corn farmer saying "that's<br /> > interesting" to a cattle rancher who describes the particulars of raising<br /> > Holsteins. What interests the linguists IS interesting, it just isn't<br /> > what makes the grammar world go around.<br /> ><br /> > The demonstrable result is that the linguists tend to carry on their<br /> > exotic discussions on this listserv and the grammarians tend to lurk in<br /> > the shadows. I propose to you that there should be a way to better serve<br /> > the grammarians, of whom there are thousands in this country, and who<br /> > each have questions about the day-to-day of teaching grammar.<br /> ><br /> > The grammarians can go somewhere else, of course, and maybe they do, but<br /> > since ATEG is the Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar, why is it<br /> > not appropriate that ATEG concern itself with English Grammar and let the<br /> > linguists go elsewhere and ponder, in a different venue, those things<br /> > that interest them?<br /> ><br /> > br-had.sun.17july11.<br /> > .<br /> ><br /> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br /> > interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select<br /> > "Join or leave the list"<br /> ><br /> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br /> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br /> > interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select<br /> > "Join or leave the list"<br /> ><br /> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br /> ><br /> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br /> > interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select<br /> > "Join or leave the list"<br /> ><br /> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br /> ><br /> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br /> > interface at:<br /> > <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br /> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br /> ><br /> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br /> ><br /> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web<br /> > interface at:<br /> > <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br /> > and select "Join or leave the list"<br /> ><br /> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><br /> ><br /> --<br /> <a defang_ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br /> <br /> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:<br /> <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br /> and select "Join or leave the list"<br /> <br /> Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a></div> </div> </div> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/</p> </blockquote> </div> </div> </div><div>--</div> <div><a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a></div> </body></html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_----------=_1311199365208101-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 19 Jul 2011 to 20 Jul 2011 (#2011-132) *********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/