Good point. I was uncertain about their use of logical equivalence too.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:03 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctive -- calling Dick Veit
Just to be picky: the H&P example of logical equivalence is not logically equivalent but is one of implication. To be equivalent it must run rather something like: "If Jill's in her office, she is here." The implication requires the impicature that she is evidently not to be seen about the place, or that she is not accustomed to being about the place anywhere else.
Bruce
--- [log in to unmask] wrote:
From: "STAHLKE, HERBERT F" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctive -- calling Dick Veit
Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:09:24 -0400
I’ve been uneasy with this solution, that the if clause must be subjunctive unless it’s an indirect question. The choice between indicative and subjunctive in “he would have acted differently if he were/was sober” corresponds to a difference in meaning. With the subjunctive, we know he was drunk. With the indicative, we don’t, and so we express that as a possibility. Not surprisingly, Huddleston&Pullum (740-743) give several conditions under which the protasis (the if clause) is indicative.
Relevance: If you’re interested, Dick’s coming to the party too.
Only-if implicature: I’m going to the beach this weekend if it’s fine.
Don’t-know implicature: If she bought it, she got a bargain.
Logical equivalence: If Jill is here, she’s in her office.
Multiple situations: She cycled to work if she got up early enough.
So as with tense in other constructions, much depends on speaker intent.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:14 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Subjunctive -- calling Dick Veit
John,
If the main clause is in the past tense, the subordinate clause would still be subjunctive: "If he were sober" rather than "if he was sober." But like you I would use the perfect subjunctive ("had he been sober" or "If he had been sober") when the main clause is past tense.
Dick
On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:16 AM, John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dick - if the event in question happened in the past, as in the second sentence model, would you write "He would have acted differently if he was sober"? This is a construction I see more commonly. Though, I might construct it differently still: "Had he been sober, he would have acted differently."
John
Subjunctive mood is generally used for counter-factuals. Declarative mood is used for factual events or events of unknown factuality, including those that follow "if." So I'd write:
Dick
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 4:48 PM, Michael Kischner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
I want to write a gentle respond to someone who wrote to my college alumni magazine in great dismay over this sentence in its last issue: "You wouldn't be reading this magazine if Kenyon wasn't special to you." She asserts, "The word 'if' always takes the subjunctive.. . . I would expect no less than proper grammar in our alumni magazine!"
Does somebody have a good feel for where things stand on this now? In the latest edition of Martha Kolln's book that I have (7th; 2006), Martha says that "was" is "fairly common" in certain "If" sentences --"If Joe was here, he'd agree with me" -- but that, in writing,"the subjunctive were is the standard form." Edith Wollin says pretty much the same thing in the latest edition of the textbook she and I co-authored. I'd like to know how others are seeing it.
Edith tells me that Dick Veit sent a very interesting message to this list about the subjunctive. I missed it. Dick, if you see this and can find your email, would you mind re-sending?
Thanks!
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