Bill, this is amazing! Thank you so much! Jane On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Spruiell, William C <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Marshall, Jane, et al.: > > "Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me as well, and I associate > them older novels and spoken British English. I don't think U.S. speakers > use "need" (as opposed to "need to") nearly as often in the semi-modal > version, so that might be factoring into the mix. But then, linguist's > ideas about usage can be just as wrong as anyone else's. > > Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious and > went into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the BYU > version of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words, > period, so the base counts don't provide any direct evidence for > American/British differences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating > under the assumption that the overall distribution of un-negated modals is > different from that of negated ones, and that the distribution of the > contracted-negated version can be different from that of the un-contracted > negated one: > > > COCA (U.S.) > > 811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) = .22 > 165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) = 2.56 > 1079 (needn't) to 3309 (need not) = .33 > 13780 (don't have to) to 939 (do not have to) = 14.68 > > Needn't per million = .0000026975 > Mustn't per million = .0000020275 > Can't per million = 0004143725 > > BNC (Britain) > > 911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) = .48 > 30298 (can't) to 21715 (can not) = 1.40 > 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) = .28 > 1750 (don't have to) to 366 (do not have to) = 4.78 > > Needn't per million = .00000492 > Mustn't per million = .00000911 > Can't per million = .00030298 > > British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100 mil; > these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of words, but > it's unlikely to be exactly that even a figure): > > Needn't: 1.82 > Mustn't: 4.49 > Can't: 0.73 > > > The British seem to use "needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the > imbalance being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." Distribution across > genre is interesting. For the American corpus, "needn't" was found mostly > in magazines and fiction, while "mustn't" was found almost exclusively in > fiction. There were very, very few examples in sampled speech. The BNC, on > the other hand, shows a hefty portion of "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken > English, although a slightly higher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" > shows a similar pattern, with fiction having proportionally more examples > but spoken still having a fair number. > > > --- Bill Spruiell > > From: Marshall Myers <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] > >> > Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask]>> > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000 > To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto: > [log in to unmask]>> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > Jane, > > In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not as > prevalent as other forms. > > Marshall > > p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc), > there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Mustn't/needn't > > I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She > tutors children in English and asks the following question: > > "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British > because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade > and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." > > Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in > England for several years. > > Jane Saral > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/