I infrequently but consistently use 'needn't' and 'mustn't; in casual conversation-- never in writing, even in letters to family. Scott Catledge -------------------------------------------------- From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 12:00 AM To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2011 to 18 Nov 2011 (#2011-202) > There are 6 messages totalling 795 lines in this issue. > > Topics of the day: > > 1. Mustn't/needn't (6) > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:46:59 -0500 > From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Mustn't/needn't > > --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a > German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question: > > "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British > because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade > and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." > > Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in > England for several years. > > Jane Saral > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <div>I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a > German.=A0= > =A0She=A0tutors children in English and asks the following question:</div> > <div>=A0</div> > <div>"Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you > = > speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids > have= > to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary > vocabulary.= > .." </div> > > > <div>=A0</div> > <div>Both sound normal to me.=A0But that might be because I lived and > taugh= > t in England for several years.=A0=A0=A0</div> > <div>=A0</div> > <div>Jane Saral</div> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --f46d043085605bb11b04b20518cf-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 11:03:20 -0600 > From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Jane, both words, if used in everyday conversation, would sound > hyper-formal to my American intuition. It would catch me off guard > particularly if a young person said it (I might even interpret it as > sarcasm). > > John > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a >> German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question: >> >> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British >> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade >> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." >> >> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in >> England for several years. >> >> Jane Saral >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > > > -- > John > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jane, both words, if used in everyday conversation, would sound > hyper-forma= > l to my American intuition. It would catch me off guard particularly if a > y= > oung person said it (I might even interpret it as sarcasm). > <br><br>John<br= >> > > <br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 10:46 AM, Jane > Saral= > <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">jane.saral@g= > mail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= > =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"> > > <div>I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a > German.=A0= > =A0She=A0tutors children in English and asks the following question:</div> > <div>=A0</div> > <div>"Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you > = > speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids > have= > to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary > vocabulary.= > .." </div> > > > > > <div>=A0</div> > <div>Both sound normal to me.=A0But that might be because I lived and > taugh= > t in England for several years.=A0=A0=A0</div> > <div>=A0</div> > <div>Jane Saral</div> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interf= > ace at: > <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D"_b= > lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D"_blank"= >>http://ateg.org/</a> > </p></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br>John<br><br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --20cf3010e71f3c094904b205527a-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:11:57 +0100 > From: Marie-Pierre Jouannaud <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > This presentation will give you a pretty good idea of the relative > frequency of modals in speech and writing (there's no British/ American > distinction though): > > http://www.slideshare.net/ebenimzo/modal-frequency-and-genre-6510671 > > Marie > France > >> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a >> German. She tutors children in English and asks the following question= > : >> >> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's Britis= > h >> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grad= > e >> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." >> >> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught i= > n >> England for several years. >> >> Jane Saral >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf= > ace >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000 > From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_ > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > Jane, > > In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not as > = > prevalent as other forms. > > Marshall > > p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc), > ther= > e is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Saral > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Mustn't/needn't > > I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She > tu= > tors children in English and asks the following question: > > "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British > be= > cause it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade and > = > to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." > > Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in > En= > gland for several years. > > Jane Saral > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > = > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave= > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_ > Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" > xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr= > osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" > = > xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" > xmlns=3D"http:= > //www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"> > <head> > <meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; > charset=3Dus-ascii"= >> > <meta name=3D"Generator" content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"> > <style> > <!-- > /* Font Definitions */ > @font-face > {font-family:"Cambria Math"; > panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Calibri; > panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;} > @font-face > {font-family:Tahoma; > panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;} > /* Style Definitions */ > p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal > {margin:0in; > margin-bottom:.0001pt; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > a:link, span.MsoHyperlink > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:blue; > text-decoration:underline;} > a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed > {mso-style-priority:99; > color:purple; > text-decoration:underline;} > p > {mso-style-priority:99; > mso-margin-top-alt:auto; > margin-right:0in; > mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto; > margin-left:0in; > font-size:12.0pt; > font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";} > span.EmailStyle18 > {mso-style-type:personal-reply; > font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D;} > .MsoChpDefault > {mso-style-type:export-only;} > @page Section1 > {size:8.5in 11.0in; > margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} > div.Section1 > {page:Section1;} > --> > </style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> > </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> > <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> > <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> > </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--> > </head> > <body lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"> > <div class=3D"Section1"> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D">Jane,<o:p></o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D">In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, > a= > lthough not as prevalent as other forms.<o:p></o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D">Marshall<o:p></o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D">p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, > can-c= > ould,etc), there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after > = > Chaucer. > <o:p></o:p></span></p> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span > style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Ca= > libri","sans-serif"; > color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p> > <div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in > = > 0in 0in"> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span > style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"= > ;Tahoma","sans-serif"">From:</span></b><span > style=3D"font-s= > ize:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif""> > Assembly= > for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > <b>On Behalf Of </b>Jane Saral<br> > <b>Sent:</b> Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM<br> > <b>To:</b> [log in to unmask]<br> > <b>Subject:</b> Mustn't/needn't<o:p></o:p></span></p> > </div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or > s= > o) to a German. She tutors children in English and asks > the= > following question:<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">"Do you ever use "needn't or > mustn't"= > when you speak? Maybe it's British because it sure sounds weird to me. > Kid= > s have to learn this in 5th grade and to me it seems like unnecessary > vocab= > ulary..." > <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Both sound normal to me. But that might be > beca= > use I lived and taught in England for several > years. <o:p>= > </o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">Jane Saral<o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > <p class=3D"MsoNormal">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit > th= > e list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > an= > d select "Join or leave the list" > <o:p></o:p></p> > <p>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ <o:p></o:p></p> > </div> > </body> > </html> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A3964Dfsmail1facultys_-- > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 20:19:02 +0000 > From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > Marshall, Jane, et al.: > > "Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me as well, and I associate > th= > em older novels and spoken British English. I don't think U.S. speakers > us= > e "need" (as opposed to "need to") nearly as often in the semi-modal > versio= > n, so that might be factoring into the mix. But then, linguist's ideas > abou= > t usage can be just as wrong as anyone else's. > > Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious and > we= > nt into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the BYU > version= > of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words, period, so > th= > e base counts don't provide any direct evidence for American/British > differ= > ences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating under the assumption > that= > the overall distribution of un-negated modals is different from that of > ne= > gated ones, and that the distribution of the contracted-negated version > can= > be different from that of the un-contracted negated one: > > > COCA (U.S.) > > 811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) =3D .22 > 165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) =3D 2.56 > 1079 (needn't) to 3309 (need not) =3D .33 > 13780 (don't have to) to 939 (do not have to) =3D 14.68 > > Needn't per million =3D .0000026975 > Mustn't per million =3D .0000020275 > Can't per million =3D 0004143725 > > BNC (Britain) > > 911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) =3D .48 > 30298 (can't) to 21715 (can not) =3D 1.40 > 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) =3D .28 > 1750 (don't have to) to 366 (do not have to) =3D 4.78 > > Needn't per million =3D .00000492 > Mustn't per million =3D .00000911 > Can't per million =3D .00030298 > > British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100 mil; > = > these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of words, but > = > it's unlikely to be exactly that even a figure): > > Needn't: 1.82 > Mustn't: 4.49 > Can't: 0.73 > > > The British seem to use "needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the > imbalan= > ce being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." Distribution across genre > = > is interesting. For the American corpus, "needn't" was found mostly in > maga= > zines and fiction, while "mustn't" was found almost exclusively in > fiction.= > There were very, very few examples in sampled speech. The BNC, on the > othe= > r hand, shows a hefty portion of "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken English, > alt= > hough a slightly higher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" shows a > simila= > r pattern, with fiction having proportionally more examples but spoken > stil= > l having a fair number. > > > --- Bill Spruiell > > From: Marshall Myers > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>= >> > Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE= > RV.MUOHIO.EDU>> > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000 > To: ATEG English Grammar > <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] > HIO.EDU>> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > Jane, > > In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not as > = > prevalent as other forms. > > Marshall > > p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc), > ther= > e is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer. > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask] > OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Saral > Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Mustn't/needn't > > I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She > tu= > tors children in English and asks the following question: > > "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British > be= > cause it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade and > = > to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." > > Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in > En= > gland for several years. > > Jane Saral > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > = > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave= > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > = > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave= > the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 15:37:00 -0500 > From: Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't > > --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Bill, this is amazing! Thank you so much! > Jane > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Spruiell, William C > <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > >> Marshall, Jane, et al.: >> >> "Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me as well, and I associate >> them older novels and spoken British English. I don't think U.S. speakers >> use "need" (as opposed to "need to") nearly as often in the semi-modal >> version, so that might be factoring into the mix. But then, linguist's >> ideas about usage can be just as wrong as anyone else's. >> >> Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious and >> went into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the BYU >> version of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words, >> period, so the base counts don't provide any direct evidence for >> American/British differences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating >> under the assumption that the overall distribution of un-negated modals >> is >> different from that of negated ones, and that the distribution of the >> contracted-negated version can be different from that of the >> un-contracted >> negated one: >> >> >> COCA (U.S.) >> >> 811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) = .22 >> 165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) = 2.56 >> 1079 (needn't) to 3309 (need not) = .33 >> 13780 (don't have to) to 939 (do not have to) = 14.68 >> >> Needn't per million = .0000026975 >> Mustn't per million = .0000020275 >> Can't per million = 0004143725 >> >> BNC (Britain) >> >> 911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) = .48 >> 30298 (can't) to 21715 (can not) = 1.40 >> 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) = .28 >> 1750 (don't have to) to 366 (do not have to) = 4.78 >> >> Needn't per million = .00000492 >> Mustn't per million = .00000911 >> Can't per million = .00030298 >> >> British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100 >> mil; >> these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of words, >> but >> it's unlikely to be exactly that even a figure): >> >> Needn't: 1.82 >> Mustn't: 4.49 >> Can't: 0.73 >> >> >> The British seem to use "needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the >> imbalance being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." Distribution >> across >> genre is interesting. For the American corpus, "needn't" was found mostly >> in magazines and fiction, while "mustn't" was found almost exclusively in >> fiction. There were very, very few examples in sampled speech. The BNC, >> on >> the other hand, shows a hefty portion of "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken >> English, although a slightly higher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" >> shows a similar pattern, with fiction having proportionally more examples >> but spoken still having a fair number. >> >> >> --- Bill Spruiell >> >> From: Marshall Myers >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] >> >> >> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto: >> [log in to unmask]>> >> Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000 >> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto: >> [log in to unmask]>> >> Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't >> >> Jane, >> >> In American English, I agree that they sound normal to me, although not >> as >> prevalent as other forms. >> >> Marshall >> >> p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, can-could,etc), >> there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after Chaucer. >> >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: >> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jane Saral >> Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM >> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Mustn't/needn't >> >> I have a niece in Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. She >> tutors children in English and asks the following question: >> >> "Do you ever use "needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British >> because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade >> and to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..." >> >> Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught in >> England for several years. >> >> Jane Saral >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63 > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > > <div>Bill, this is amazing!=A0 Thank you so much!</div> > <div>Jane<br><br></div> > <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 3:19 PM, Spruiell, > Willi= > am C <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">sprui1wc@c= > mich.edu</a>></span> wrote:<br> > <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px > 0.8ex= > ; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class=3D"gmail_quote">Marshall, Jane, et > al.:<br><br>&= > quot;Mustn't" and "needn't" sound hyperformal to me > = > as well, and I associate them older novels and spoken British English. I > do= > n't think U.S. speakers =A0use "need" (as opposed to > "ne= > ed to") nearly as often in the semi-modal version, so that might be > fa= > ctoring into the mix. But then, linguist's ideas about usage can be > jus= > t as wrong as anyone else's.<br> > > <br>Here are some data that may or may not be interesting (I got curious > an= > d went into hunter-gatherer mode). They're ratios from COCA and the > BYU= > version of the British National Corpus (COCA's got a lot more words, > p= > eriod, so the base counts don't provide any direct evidence for > America= > n/British differences; the ratios, however, might). I'm operating > under= > the assumption that the overall distribution of un-negated modals is > diffe= > rent from that of negated ones, and that the distribution of the > contracted= > -negated version can be different from that of the un-contracted negated > on= > e:<br> > > <br><br>COCA (U.S.)<br><br>=A0811 (mustn't) to 3671 (must not) =3D =A0 > = > =A0.22<br>165749 (can't) to 101 (cannot) + 64615 (can not) =3D > =A02.56<= > br>1079 (needn't) =A0to 3309 (need not) =3D =A0 =A0.33<br>13780 > (don= > 9;t have to) to 939 (do not have to) =3D 14.68<br> > > <br>Needn't per million =3D .0000026975<br>Mustn't per million =3D > = > .0000020275<br>Can't per million =3D 0004143725<br><br>BNC > (Britain)<br= >><br>911 (mustn't) to 1893 (must not) =3D =A0 .48<br>30298 (can't) >>= > to 21715 (can not) =3D 1.40<br> > > 492 (needn't) to 1770 (need not) =3D =A0 .28<br>1750 (don't have > to= > ) to 366 (do not have to) =3D 4.78<br><br>Needn't per million =3D > .0000= > 0492<br>Mustn't per million =3D .00000911<br>Can't per million =3D > = > =A0.00030298<br> > > <br>British:American ratios (Assumes COCA is 400 mil words and BNC is 100 > m= > il; these figures are approximate; I don't know the exact number of > wor= > ds, but it's unlikely to be exactly that even a > figure):<br><br>Needn&#= > 39;t: 1.82<br> > > Mustn't: 4.49<br>Can't: 0.73<br><br><br>The British seem to use > &qu= > ot;needn't" and "musn't" more often, with the > imbala= > nce being particularly pronounced with "mustn't." > Distributio= > n across genre is interesting. For the American corpus, > "needn't&q= > uot; was found mostly in magazines and fiction, while > "mustn't&quo= > t; was found almost exclusively in fiction. There were very, very few > examp= > les in sampled speech. The BNC, on the other hand, shows a hefty portion > of= > "mustn'ts" occuring in spoken English, although a slightly > h= > igher proportion are in fiction; "needn't" shows a similar > pa= > ttern, with fiction having proportionally more examples but spoken still > ha= > ving a fair number.<br> > > <br><br>--- Bill Spruiell<br><br>From: Marshall Myers <<a > href=3D"mailto= > :[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailto:<a > href=3D"ma= > ilto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>>><br>Reply-To= > : ATEG English Grammar <<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">ATEG= > @LISTSERV.MUOHIO.EDU</a><mailto:<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask] > DU">[log in to unmask]</a>>><br> > > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:35:31 +0000<br>To: ATEG English Grammar <<a > hr= > ef=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mail= > to:<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>= > >><br> > > Subject: Re: Mustn't/needn't<br> > <div class=3D"im"><br>Jane,<br><br>In American English, I agree that they > s= > ound normal to me, although not as prevalent as other > forms.<br><br>Marshal= > l<br><br>p.s. If you look at the auxiliary forms (shall-should, > can-could,e= > tc), there is no pairing for must, the other form disappearing after > Chauce= > r.<br> > > <br>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:<a > href=3D"m= > ailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>] On Behalf Of > = > Jane Saral<br>Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 11:47 AM<br></div>To: <a > href= > =3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><mailto= > :<a > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a>&g= > t;<br> > > > <div> > <div></div> > <div class=3D"h5">Subject: Mustn't/needn't<br><br>I have a niece > in= > Germany married (for 15 years or so) to a German. =A0She tutors children > i= > n English and asks the following question:<br><br>"Do you ever use > &qu= > ot;needn't or mustn't" when you speak? Maybe it's British > = > because it sure sounds weird to me. Kids have to learn this in 5th grade > an= > d to me it seems like unnecessary vocabulary..."<br> > > <br>Both sound normal to me. But that might be because I lived and taught > i= > n England for several years.<br><br>Jane Saral<br>To join or leave this > LIS= > TSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a > href=3D"http:/= > /listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.= > muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the > list&q= > uot;<br> > > <br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D"_bl= > ank">http://ateg.org/</a><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, > pleas= > e visit the list's web interface at: <a > href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.= > edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archiv= > es/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the list"<br> > > <br>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D"_bl= > ank">http://ateg.org/</a><br><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, > pleas= > e visit the list's web interface at:<br>=A0 =A0 <a > href=3D"http://lists= > erv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" > target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio= > .edu/archives/ateg.html</a><br> > > and select "Join or leave the list"<br><br>Visit ATEG's web > s= > ite at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" > target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><= > br></div></div></blockquote></div><br> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > <p> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > --f46d0407144bf8f04a04b2084e63-- > > ------------------------------ > > End of ATEG Digest - 16 Nov 2011 to 18 Nov 2011 (#2011-202) > *********************************************************** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/