Marshall, My first instinct is to treat the second case as involving an *attributive* subject complement, with the reflexive being a rather idiomatic equivalent of an adjectival. It's gradable to some extent ("He's more himself today than he was yesterday, when he was completely beside himself"). I think I've seen this kind of analysis in several places; I'll try to dig them out. There may be analogous situations with proper names being used for qualities; "The Provost was going completely Voldemort on everyone " (apologies for redundancy). --- Bill Spruiell On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:27 AM, "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Members, > > Look at sentence A below: > > A. Smith cut himself with a knife. > > Even though "himself" "re-names" the subject, it follows a transitive verb and thus is a direct object. Correct? > > Look at sentence B below: > > B. Smith is not himself today. > > In this sentence, "himself" follows a copulative verb "is." In most circumstances, "himself" would be a subject complement that again re-names the subject, "Smith." > > How do we regard "himself" in sentence B? Is "himself" a subject complement? Or is it to be regarded differently? Or are we dealing in both sentence A and B with a special case? > > Your thoughts? > > Marshall > > My question is > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 7:29 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 9 Nov 2011 to 10 Nov 2011 (#2011-196) > > To me a participle is a verb form. In its present form it can be part of a > progressive aspect in a > verb or act as an adjective. Less commonly, it could act as a noun; > however, any word can act > as a noun. > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:02 AM > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: ATEG Digest - 9 Nov 2011 to 10 Nov 2011 (#2011-196) > >> There is 1 message totalling 1027 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 21:05:36 +0000 >> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) >> >> Scott, >> >> I stand corrected. "Exciting" was first a verb form, then a participle, >> and= >> then an adjective, correct? >> >> Marshall >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge >> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 10:33 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) >> >> I would not say that "exciting was an adjective made out of a verb but a >> present participle used as an adjective--a concept that I taught early on. >> When I stated that any word could be used as a noun, I was challenged by a >> student who said, "'The' can't be used as a noun." I then asked her to=20 >> diagram >> her statement. When she did, the class saw that "The" was a subject. >> I=20 >> then >> asked if "The" was used as a pronoun: they replied almost in unison, >> "No,=20 >> it's >> used as a noun. The young lady just shook her head and said, "'The' >> can't= >> =20 >> be >> no noun!" I stated that she was quite right that 'the' could not be a >> noun= >> ;=20 >> it >> could, however, be used as a noun--as we clearly saw from the diagram. I >> never did convince her and, on the final exam, a similar response took her >> exam grade from a C to a D=3D--lowering her final average from a C to a >> C-. >> She complained; however, we had few, if any, options at that time on >> determining final grades. >> >> Scott Catledge >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:03 AM >> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) >> >>> There are 5 messages totalling 620 lines in this issue. >>> >>> Topics of the day: >>> >>> 1. grammar question--verb v. participle (5) >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=3D:20532 >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dus-ascii >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>> >>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>> >>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>> >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Scott Woods >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=3D:20532 >>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii >>> >>> <html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff;=20 >>> font-family:times new roman, new york, times,=20 >>> serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Dear List,</div><div><br></div><div>How would= >> =20 >>> you describe "exciting" in the following=20 >>> sentence?</div><div><br></div><div><What had been exciting gave her a= >> =20 >>> feeling of dazed helplessness.></div><div><br></div><div>How would >>> you= >> =20 >>> explain your reasoning to 7th=20 >>> graders?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Sc= >> ott=20 >>> Woods<br></div></div></body></html> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> <p> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=3D:20532-- >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:49:32 +0000 >>> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Scott -- >>> >>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>> th= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term= >> =20 >>> ac=3D >>> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which=20 >>> support=3D >>> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out adverb= >> =20 >>> fa=3D >>> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>> "excitingly"= >> =20 >>> t=3D >>> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about >>> verb=20 >>> for=3D >>> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring >>> it= >> =20 >>> u=3D >>> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable >>> onl= >> y=20 >>> =3D >>> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them=20 >>> confused"=3D >>> (but then the "very" test bombs). >>> >>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>> insid= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> a wh-clause acting as subject=3D85 but I was guessing that seventh grade= >> =20 >>> prob=3D >>> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >>> >>> --- Bill Spruiell >>> >>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar=20 >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=3D >>> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>> To: ATEG English Grammar=20 >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] >>> HIO.EDU>> >>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>> >>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>> >>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Scott Woods >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or=20 >>> leave=3D >>> the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:54:59 +0000 >>> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Scott, >>> >>> I concur with Bill. >>> >>> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as "exciting" is. >>> >>> Marshall >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar=20 >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >>> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Scott -- >>> >>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>> th= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term= >> =20 >>> ac=3D >>> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which=20 >>> support=3D >>> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out adverb= >> =20 >>> fa=3D >>> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>> "excitingly"= >> =20 >>> t=3D >>> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about >>> verb=20 >>> for=3D >>> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring >>> it= >> =20 >>> u=3D >>> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable >>> onl= >> y=20 >>> =3D >>> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them=20 >>> confused"=3D >>> (but then the "very" test bombs). >>> >>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>> insid= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> a wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade=20 >>> prob=3D >>> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >>> >>> --- Bill Spruiell >>> >>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar=20 >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE=3D >>> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>> To: ATEG English Grammar=20 >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] >>> HIO.EDU>> >>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>> >>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>> >>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Scott Woods >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or=20 >>> leave=3D >>> the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> =3D >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:54:40 -0500 >>> From: MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> --=3D-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3Dutf-8 >>> >>> Another adjective test besides "very": "more exciting. >>> >>> Martha >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 02:54 PM, "Myers, Marshall" >>> <[log in to unmask]>= >> =20 >>> wrote: >>>> >>> Scott, >>>> >>>> I concur with Bill. >>>> >>>> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as >>>> "exciting" is. >>>> >>>> Marshall >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>>> >>>> Scott -- >>>> >>>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>>> th= >> e >>>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term >>>> actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, >>>> which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can >>>> rul= >> e=20 >>>> out >>>> adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>>> "excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class >>>> hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this >>>> would= >> =20 >>>> be a >>>> good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding=20 >>>> something >>>> interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now >>>> jus= >> t >>>> made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs). >>>> >>>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>>> insid= >> e=20 >>>> a >>>> wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade=20 >>>> probably >>>> hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >>>> >>>> --- Bill Spruiell >>>> >>>> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>>> To: ATEG English Grammar >>>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>>> >>>> Dear List, >>>> >>>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>>> >>>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>>> >>>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Scott Woods >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interfac= >> e=20 >>>> at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >>>> the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interfac= >> e=20 >>>> at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interfac= >> e=20 >>>> at: >>>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> Martha Kolln >>> >>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> --=3D-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO >>> Content-Type: text/html; charset=3Dutf-8 >>> >>> <div>Another adjective test besides "very": "more >>> exciting.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Martha<br><br>On >>> Tue,=20 >>> Nov 8, >>> 2011 02:54 PM, <b>"Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]></b> >>> wrote:<br><blockquote id=3D"quoted_response" style=3D"padding-left: 3px; >>> padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 3px; margin-right: 0px; border-left: >>> 1px= >> =20 >>> solid >>> #000;"> >>> <pre> >>> Scott, >>> >>> I concur with Bill. >>> >>> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as >>> "exciting" is. >>> >>> Marshall >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Scott -- >>> >>> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>> th= >> e >>> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term >>> actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, >>> which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can >>> rul= >> e=20 >>> out >>> adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>> "excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class >>> hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this >>> would= >> =20 >>> be a >>> good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding=20 >>> something >>> interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now >>> jus= >> t >>> made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs). >>> >>> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>> insid= >> e=20 >>> a >>> wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade=20 >>> probably >>> hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >>> >>> --- Bill Spruiell >>> >>> From: Scott Woods=20 >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>> To: ATEG English Grammar >>> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> Dear List, >>> >>> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>> >>> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>> >>> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Scott Woods >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >>> the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> </pre></blockquote>Martha Kolln<br><br><br></div> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interfac= >> e=20 >>> at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>> and select "Join or leave the list" >>> <p> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> --=3D-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO-- >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:57:12 +0000 >>> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A37D6Bfsmail1facultys_ >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >>> >>> QVRFRyBNZW1iZXJzLA0KDQpObyB0YWtlcnMgb24gcmV2aWV3aW5nIHRoZSBNY1dob3J0ZXIgY= >> WQg >>> T2Frc+KAmSBib29rcz8NCg0KTWFyc2hhbGwNCkJvb2sgUmV2aWV3IEVkaXRvcg0KDQpGcm9tO= >> iBB >>> c3NlbWJseSBmb3IgdGhlIFRlYWNoaW5nIG9mIEVuZ2xpc2ggR3JhbW1hciBbbWFpbHRvOkFUR= >> UdA >>> TElTVFNFUlYuTVVPSElPLkVEVV0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1BUlRIQSBLT0xMTg0KU2VudDogV= >> HVl >>> c2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMDgsIDIwMTEgMzo1NSBQTQ0KVG86IEFURUdATElTVFNFUlYuTVVPS= >> ElP >>> 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--_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A37D6Bfsmail1facultys_-- >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) >>> ********************************************************** >>> =20 >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> = >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of ATEG Digest - 9 Nov 2011 to 10 Nov 2011 (#2011-196) >> ********************************************************** >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/