Scott, My word choice ("adjective made out of a verb") was partially based on what is probably an underestimation of the amount of detail seventh-graders normally work with. Since I don't deal with middle-schoolers, I know that my usual ways of talking about grammar with college students would quite likely be disastrous in a middle-school class -- hence my attempt to compensate by simplifying. I used "partially," though, because I think there's also a good chance that participles that are quite frequently used in adjectival function end up becoming adjectives -- speakers don't necessarily access the word as a verb form directly. "Exciting" and "boring" would be good candidates for this kind of shift, but not "defenestrating" or "bletting" etc. I don't think the participle-as-adjective vs. adjective-historically-derived-from-participle distinction would be a good focus for much K-12 class time, though (I'm not that far gone. Honest). --- Bill Spruiell On 11/9/11 10:33 AM, "Scott Catledge" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >I would not say that "exciting was an adjective made out of a verb but a >present participle used as an adjective--a concept that I taught early on. >When I stated that any word could be used as a noun, I was challenged by a >student who said, "'The' can't be used as a noun." I then asked her to >diagram >her statement. When she did, the class saw that "The" was a subject. I >then >asked if "The" was used as a pronoun: they replied almost in unison, "No, >it's >used as a noun. The young lady just shook her head and said, "'The' >can't >be >no noun!" I stated that she was quite right that 'the' could not be a >noun; >it >could, however, be used as a noun--as we clearly saw from the diagram. I >never did convince her and, on the final exam, a similar response took her >exam grade from a C to a D=--lowering her final average from a C to a C-. >She complained; however, we had few, if any, options at that time on >determining final grades. > >Scott Catledge >-------------------------------------------------- >From: "ATEG automatic digest system" <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:03 AM >To: <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: ATEG Digest - 29 Oct 2011 to 8 Nov 2011 (#2011-194) > >> There are 5 messages totalling 620 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. grammar question--verb v. participle (5) >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532 >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Dear List, >> >> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >> >> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >> >> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott Woods >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532 >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii >> >> <html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; >> font-family:times new roman, new york, times, >> serif;font-size:12pt"><div>Dear List,</div><div><br></div><div>How >>would >> you describe "exciting" in the following >> sentence?</div><div><br></div><div><What had been exciting gave her >>a >> feeling of dazed helplessness.></div><div><br></div><div>How would >>you >> explain your reasoning to 7th >> >>graders?<br></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks,</div><div><br></div><div>Sc >>ott >> Woods<br></div></div></body></html> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> --1938299484-559104384-1320775173=:20532-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:49:32 +0000 >> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Scott -- >> >> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>the >> = >> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the >>term >> ac= >> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which >> support= >> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out >>adverb >> fa= >> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>"excitingly" >> t= >> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about verb >> for= >> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring >>it >> u= >> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable >>only >> = >> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them >> confused"= >> (but then the "very" test bombs). >> >> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>inside >> = >> a wh-clause acting as subject=85 but I was guessing that seventh grade >> prob= >> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >> >> --- Bill Spruiell >> >> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE= >> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >> To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU>> >> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Dear List, >> >> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >> >> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >> >> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott Woods >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> = >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave= >> the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:54:59 +0000 >> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Scott, >> >> I concur with Bill. >> >> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as "exciting" is. >> >> Marshall >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask] >> OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Scott -- >> >> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>the >> = >> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the >>term >> ac= >> tually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, which >> support= >> s the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can rule out >>adverb >> fa= >> irly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>"excitingly" >> t= >> here if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class hasn't talked about verb >> for= >> ms being used as adjectives, maybe this would be a good place to bring >>it >> u= >> p. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding something interpretable >>only >> = >> as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now just made them >> confused"= >> (but then the "very" test bombs). >> >> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>inside >> = >> a wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade >> prob= >> ably hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >> >> --- Bill Spruiell >> >> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> >> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:ATEG@LISTSE= >> RV.MUOHIO.EDU>> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >> To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] >> HIO.EDU>> >> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Dear List, >> >> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >> >> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >> >> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott Woods >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> = >> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or >> leave= >> the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> = >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:54:40 -0500 >> From: MARTHA KOLLN <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >> >> Another adjective test besides "very": "more exciting. >> >> Martha >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 02:54 PM, "Myers, Marshall" >><[log in to unmask]> >> wrote: >>> >> Scott, >>> >>>I concur with Bill. >>> >>>"Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as >>>"exciting" is. >>> >>>Marshall >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >>>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >>>Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >>>To: [log in to unmask] >>>Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>>Scott -- >>> >>>I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>>the >>>class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term >>>actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, >>>which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can >>>rule >>>out >>>adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >>>"excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class >>>hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this >>>would >>>be a >>>good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding >>>something >>>interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now >>>just >>>made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs). >>> >>>If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>>inside >>>a >>>wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade >>>probably >>>hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >>> >>>--- Bill Spruiell >>> >>>From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >>><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >>>To: ATEG English Grammar >>><[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >>>Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >>> >>>Dear List, >>> >>>How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >>> >>><What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >>> >>>How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >>> >>>Thanks, >>> >>>Scott Woods >>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>interface >>>at: >>>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >>>the list" >>> >>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>interface >>>at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>interface >>>at: >>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >>>and select "Join or leave the list" >>> >>>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >>> >>> >> >> Martha Kolln >> >> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO >> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 >> >> <div>Another adjective test besides "very": "more >> exciting.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Martha<br><br>On Tue, >> Nov 8, >> 2011 02:54 PM, <b>"Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]></b> >> wrote:<br><blockquote id="quoted_response" style="padding-left: 3px; >> padding-right: 0px; margin-left: 3px; margin-right: 0px; border-left: >>1px >> solid >> #000;"> >> <pre> >> Scott, >> >> I concur with Bill. >> >> "Interesting" and "boring" are also seen as >> "exciting" is. >> >> Marshall >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar >> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C >> Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 2:50 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Scott -- >> >> I'd say it was an adjective, of the type that's made out of a verb (if >>the >> class has talked in some way about participles, with or without the term >> actually being used). You can put "very" in front of it easily, >> which supports the idea that it's an adjective or adverb, and you can >>rule >> out >> adverb fairly easily too (it's not movable, you should be able to say >> "excitingly" there if it were an adverb, etc.). If the class >> hasn't talked about verb forms being used as adjectives, maybe this >>would >> be a >> good place to bring it up. You can nudge the word verbwards by adding >> something >> interpretable only as an object: "What had been exciting everyone now >>just >> made them confused" (but then the "very" test bombs). >> >> If you're talking about grammatical role, it's a subject complement >>inside >> a >> wh-clause acting as subject... but I was guessing that seventh grade >> probably >> hasn't focused much on nominal clauses and embedding. >> >> --- Bill Spruiell >> >> From: Scott Woods >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0800 >> To: ATEG English Grammar >> <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> Dear List, >> >> How would you describe "exciting" in the following sentence? >> >> <What had been exciting gave her a feeling of dazed helplessness.> >> >> How would you explain your reasoning to 7th graders? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Scott Woods >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave >> the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> >> </pre></blockquote>Martha Kolln<br><br><br></div> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>interface >> at: >> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >> and select "Join or leave the list" >> <p> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> >> --=-5Be6YINi0jrOI42vD6hO-- >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:57:12 +0000 >> From: "Myers, Marshall" <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: grammar question--verb v. participle >> >> --_000_E6446B90F8DEEC4FB965A2BCC9E704CC18A37D6Bfsmail1facultys_ >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 >> >> >>QVRFRyBNZW1iZXJzLA0KDQpObyB0YWtlcnMgb24gcmV2aWV3aW5nIHRoZSBNY1dob3J0ZXIgY >>WQg >> >>T2Frc+KAmSBib29rcz8NCg0KTWFyc2hhbGwNCkJvb2sgUmV2aWV3IEVkaXRvcg0KDQpGcm9tO >>iBB >> >>c3NlbWJseSBmb3IgdGhlIFRlYWNoaW5nIG9mIEVuZ2xpc2ggR3JhbW1hciBbbWFpbHRvOkFUR >>UdA >> >>TElTVFNFUlYuTVVPSElPLkVEVV0gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIE1BUlRIQSBLT0xMTg0KU2VudDogV >>HVl >> >>c2RheSwgTm92ZW1iZXIgMDgsIDIwMTEgMzo1NSBQTQ0KVG86IEFURUdATElTVFNFUlYuTVVPS >>ElP >> >>LkVEVQ0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IGdyYW1tYXIgcXVlc3Rpb24tLXZlcmIgdi4gcGFydGljaXBsZ >>Q0K >> >>DQpBbm90aGVyIGFkamVjdGl2ZSB0ZXN0IGJlc2lkZXMgInZlcnkiOiAgIm1vcmUgZXhjaXRpb >>mcu >> 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