"There 'is'[!!!] more stories"--there is certainly a display of poor grammar on the part of the writer. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2012 12:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 7 Jan 2012 to 9 Jan 2012 (#2012-8) There are 3 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. there is and there are 2. Herb's poem (2) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 11:51:44 -0500 From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> Subject: there is and there are --_3c411c70-33e2-4d8f-b1a2-38be71763f3d_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've seen and heard there is followed by the plural before. Couldn't the fo= llowing be better written?=20 "We've extended our deadline for the Esoteric Awards because we know there's=20 more stories and more photography to be discovered=2C and we want this to=20 be a successful new venture." Please comment. Thank you. Martha English teacher NYC = To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_3c411c70-33e2-4d8f-b1a2-38be71763f3d_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html> <head> </head> <body class=3D'hmmessage'><div dir=3D'ltr'> <style><!-- .hmmessage P { margin:0px=3B padding:0px } body.hmmessage { font-size: 10pt=3B font-family:Tahoma } --></style> <div dir=3D"ltr"><br>I've seen and heard there is followed by the plural be= fore. Couldn't the following be better written? <br><span style=3D"color:#5= d5d5d=3Bfont-family:arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px"><br>= "We've extended our deadline for the Esoteric Awards because we know there's=20 more stories and more photography to be discovered=2C and we want this to=20 be a successful new venture.</span>"<br><br>Please comment.<br>Thank you.<b= r>Martha<br>English teacher<br>NYC<br><br><span r>style=3D"color:#5d5d5d=3Bfo= nt-family:arial=2C helvetica=2C sans-serif=3Bfont-size:12px"></span><br></d= iv> </div></body> </html>= To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_3c411c70-33e2-4d8f-b1a2-38be71763f3d_-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 16:01:07 -0600 From: "Albert E. Krahn" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Herb's poem I think I would vote for the "that" in line 13 as a demonstrative which refers to the kind of love mentioned in the few lines prior. Nice poem, though. Punctuation! Yes, a big problem. Editors think they are smarter than the original authors of things sometimes and distort meanings as a result, as well as destroying some kind of history. Poetry, especially, deserves preservation. Albert E. Krahn University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2012 23:45:35 -0500 From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Herb's poem Albert, I have a some of reservations about call the l. 13 "that" a demonstrative. = Certainly in Present Day English that is the only analysis possible, but t= hen it would weaken the poem. The poem is about love, not a specific love = as demonstrative "that" would require. Also, the demonstrative would have = to have an antecedent. There is a candidate for that antecedent in l. 10 "= constant love," but that produces an odd meaning, that the poet is specific= ally referring to the aforementioned "constant love," which occurs two sent= ences before and contrasts with "want of wit," rather than simply to gramma= tically generic love. The WH+that construction is not unusual in EME; the = WH-words have not yet fully attained their modern subordinator status, and = the use of subordinator "that" reinforces the subordination. Finally, demo= nstrative "that" would add a stress to the line reducing it to a lamely iam= bic line rather than the metrical variant of and two anapests, which works = nicely at this point in the sonnet. =20 Then, ev'n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,=20 Is constant love deem'd there but want of wit? 10=20 Are beauties there as proud as here they be?=20 Do they above love to be lov'd, and yet=20 Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?=20 Do they call virtue there ungratefulness? Of course, none of these arguments is conclusive, but they seem more consis= tent with both EME grammar and the sense of the poem. Herb=20 -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask] OHIO.EDU] On Behalf Of Albert E. Krahn Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 5:01 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Herb's poem I think I would vote for the "that" in line 13 as a demonstrative which ref= ers to the kind of love mentioned in the few lines prior. Nice poem, thoug= h. Punctuation! Yes, a big problem. Editors think they are smarter than the or= iginal authors of things sometimes and distort meanings as a result, as wel= l as destroying some kind of history. Poetry, especially, deserves preserva= tion. Albert E. Krahn University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface = at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 7 Jan 2012 to 9 Jan 2012 (#2012-8) ******************************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/