Bruce,
Just to clarify, I don't conflate gerundial nouns with other -ing forms
traditionally called gerunds. Nor do I think that gerundial nouns must
have articles to be nouns. Of course you can usually add one (e.g., "the
log rolling"), and the grammaticality of that construction is evidence
of noun-hood.
My points are these:
First, there's no principled reason to say that "log rolling" is headed
by a noun and "the rolling of logs" is headed by a gerund. In both
cases, "rolling" passes all the tests of noun-hood. We don't say that
"wall" is a different part of speech when it occurs in the phrase "a
stone wall" as opposed to the phrase "a wall of stone." To assert that
"rolling" is not a noun in this case makes a pointless distinction. It
is a noun derived from a gerund, whether it is well established or
transitory, as you put it. (The problems with "the annual log rolling
into the river" aren't explained by calling "rolling" a gerund. They
exist with other deverbal nouns in the same situation, for example, I
find "the annual stone toss into the river" equally infelicitous.
Something else is going on here.)
Second, to call such instances of "rolling" (i.e., the gerundial nouns)
gerunds lumps them together with an entirely different syntactic
construction ("rolling logs"). I don't see any explanatory benefit to
this grouping. Sure, they share a derivational morphology, but that's
it. When I do use the term "gerund," I don't include gerundial nouns,
and I certainly never call them participles.
Third, once you've separated the gerundial nouns from the traditional
category of gerund, there is very little left to distinguish gerunds
("Rolling logs into the river is fun") from participles ("Rolling logs
into the river, the lumber company saved on transportation costs"). It's
here that I often simplify with students and call these participles. I
take the position that two constructions are not really distinct if they
only differ in their grammatical function. After all, we still call a
noun phrase a noun phrase whether it is functioning as a subject or an
object.
Regards,
Karl
On 1/17/2012 7:12 PM, Bruce Despain wrote:
> Karl,
> I would definitely cringe to intentionally conflate the transient
> adjective in -ing (imperfect participle) with the transient noun in
> -ing (gerund). Even though the constructions are similar, the
> transient adjective modifies a noun in the sentence, whereas the
> transient noun serves one of the noun functions.
> When there is no article, the noun form (gerund) is no less a verbal
> noun. There are many abstract nouns that do not have an article; they
> take a null article. And then I can see you cringe again, because it
> is so hard to take a null form as being present. There is no dispute
> that there are nouns similar to gerunds that do not have the verbal
> complements. They are just like mass nouns, but do not refer to
> substances.
>
> Man is mortal. (count noun used as an abstract noun, referring to a
> set of objects)
> Grammar is fun. (an indefinite abstract count noun)
> Recreation is fun. (an indefinite abstract count noun)
> Log rolling is fun. (an indefinite abstract count noun)
> We understand that this last example is not a gerund, but a noun
> derived from a gerund. We may say "the annual log rolling is fun,"
> but not *"the annual log rolling into the river is fun." (Some people
> may be persuaded to accept this one.) The gerund would be, "the
> annual rolling of logs into the river is fun." Thus there may or may
> not be a definite article.
> What about "the (rapid) river log rolling"? Maybe this kind of
> modification on an abstract noun derived from a gerund is allowed (the
> adjective but not the prepositional phrase). This seems to be
> "behaving like nouns internally," whatever that means. My grammar
> treats of two levels of noun phrase modification: classification and
> identification. These two kinds of noun phrase modification seem to
> be fair game for the gerund as well. The abstract noun is rarely used
> to identify a specific event.
> Bruce
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Gerund phrase v. gerund--grammar question
> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 08:48:40 -0800
>
> Like Bruce, I think that there are definitional issues at the core of
> your question. I see your examples as an illustration that the
> traditional understanding of "gerund" (which would, indeed, cover all
> your examples) doesn't adequately capture what's going on here.
>
> Your examples with "the" are nouns. Not only do they take a determiner
> and a prepositional phrase as a complement (both characteristics of
> nouns), but they also take adjectival modification, as in "the rapid
> waving of the baby's legs..." or "the annual rolling of logs into the
> river." You can even make them plural, given the right semantic
> framework: "He has participated in three runnings of the bulls." The
> Cambridge Grammar of the English Language calls these "gerundial
> nouns," (IOW, nouns derived from gerunds).
>
> Your examples without "the" do not behave like nouns internally, even
> though the whole phrase can fill a slot normally occupied by a noun
> phrase. They fail the above tests for noun-hood:
>
> *the rolling logs into the river
> *rapid rolling logs into the river
>
> On the other hand, they pass verb tests, taking a noun phrase
> complement like transitive verbs, and accepting modification by
> adverbs ("rapidly rolling logs into the river"). In short, this type
> of "gerund" behaves almost exactly like a participle. Indeed, unless
> the gerund/participle has a subject, they are exactly alike.
>
> In short, the traditional label of "gerund" lumps together two classes
> of words with very different behavior, which to my mind makes it not
> useful as an analytical category.
>
> With my students, I tend to soft-pedal, or even ignore, the
> terminology here. I dislike the CGEL term "gerund-participle" just
> because it's unwieldy, but have nothing better to offer. I'll often
> just call it a participle and ignore the gerund part, although the
> pedant in me cringes a little bit each time I do that. I focus on
> getting them to see that the -ing words can sometimes behave as nouns
> and sometimes as verbal participles. What's essential to me is getting
> them to see how to test the difference.
>
> Karl
>
> On 1/16/2012 12:02 PM, Scott Woods wrote:
>
> Dear List,
> Would you characterize "the waving of the baby's legs from the
> buggy" as a gerund phrase in the following sentence? "Susan could
> see the flash of her teeth, laughing, and the waving of the baby's
> legs from the buggy." It soesn't seem to be one to me, since it
> can't operate as a participial phrase in another sentence. Would
> you agree? Why do some gerunds take an article and others not? In
> the following pairs, the first seems to me to be a gerund phrase
> and the second not. Is this right? What is the principle behind
> why some take anarticle and other don't?
> Rolling logs into the river was fun.
> The rolling of the logs into the river was annoying.
> Eating oatmeal is boring.
> The eating of the oatmeal has begun.
> Running with the bulls is fun.
> The running of the bulls has begun.
> Growing vegetables is fun.
> The growing of the vegetables was left to me.
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Woods
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4746 - Release Date:
> 01/16/12
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4749 - Release Date: 01/17/12
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/