Dick,
 
I think I'll have to recant my suggestion that "that" in line 5 might refer to the actions of the archer.  That leaves it solely as support for the subordinator "if."  Such a use is well documented (cf. OED) with the idea that "if" was originally a noun meaning "supposition."  This kind of function is common for words like "because" which were originally phrases "by cause (of/that)."  It may well be that the verb is "judge of."  

--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: An old chestnut of a topic.
0.
0.
0.
list, there's also a demonstrative modifier "that" in line 4 ("that busy archer," presumably Cupid).

Bruce, your analysis of line 5 gives food for thought, but does it provide a reading that works with the rest of the poem? If "that" in line 5 is a demonstrative pronoun, what is its referent? What is the "kind of thing" that the moon's eyes are judging?

With Herb's analysis ("if that" = "if" in Early Modern English), then lines 5-6 might paraphrase as "Certainly, if eyes like yours (that have been so long acquainted with love) can recognize/understand love, then you can empathize with a lover's plight."

I am not sure of the reading of the next two lines. My stab at paraphrase: "I read it (i.e., your empathy) in your looks: your languished grace to (i.e., empathy with) me--who feels the same way--reveals your emotions." The poem is a challenge for modern readers, as Herb said, and I'd welcome hearing from others with readings more perceptive than my own.

Adding to the challenge is punctuation. I looked at a few different versions on the Internet, and they differ. Some have it "long with love-acquainted eyes" rather than "long-with-love-acquainted eyes." This presumably makes "eyes" the object of the preposition "with" and changes the reading significantly, but what then is the subject of the verb "judge"? Some have a semicolon rather than a comma in line 6, which I think makes sense.

 Dick


On Fri, Jan 6, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Herb,
 
I think I can concur with you on the analysis of lines 3 and 8, but the "that" in 5 and 13 look so much like demonstratives. 
In 5 there is no direct object of judge, so can't it be serving that function?  "Judge that kind of thing of love"
In 13, can it not be speaking of "that kind of love"? 

Bruce

--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Spoken vs. formal written English
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2012 00:57:09 -0500

In my grammar classes, I’ve frequently used poems as objects of analysis.  One of my favorites, and one of the most challenging, is Sir Philip Sidney’s sonnet “With how sad steps.”
 
With how sad steps, O Moon, thou climb’st the skies,
How silently, and with how wan a face!
What!  May it be that even in heav’nly place
That busy archer his sharp arrows tries?
Sure, if that long-with-love-acquainted eyes                  5
Can judge of love, thou feel’st a lover’s case.
I read it in thy looks, thy languisht grace
To me, that feel the like, thy state descries.
Then, ev’n of fellowship, O Moon, tell me,
Is constant love deem’d there but want of wit?              10
Are beauties there as proud as here they be?
Do they above love to be lov’d, and yet
Those lovers scorn whom that love doth possess?
Do they call virtue there ungratefulness?
Sidney is, of course, mid-sixteenth c., which means Early Modern English, and that makes his language a bit of a challenge for students.  As an exercise, try grammatically analyzing the four sentences found in the last six lines.
On an old chestnut of a topic, the poem also illustrates some interesting historical phenomena in the uses of “that.” 
Line 3:  “that” is a subordinating conjunction
Line 5:  “that” is an EME use of that to mark “if” as a subordinating construction.
Line 8:  “that” introduces a nonrestrictive relative clause, something grammars generally tell us is wrong.
Line 13:  “that” functions as in line 5, supporting “whom” as a subordinator.
But that’s another topic.
Herb

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