In all seriousness, I do not know what the writer is trying to say about Arnold and Sinbad. I would comment on NPR and gentlemen murderers; however, I would veer off into a political morass were I to do so; therefore, I shan't. -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 12:01 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 20 Jul 2012 to 21 Jul 2012 (#2012-63) There are 2 messages totalling 1046 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grammar question (2) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 11:09:29 -0400 From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Grammar question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Each has promised his son . . . " is an improvement, but the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. Because promise is transitive, "Each has promised his son, " allows for more than one interpretation: 1) He promised (to) his son that . . . 2) He promised his son in exchange for something else. The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the ambiguity is distracting. An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with the referent when the pronouns are adjusted accordingly: "Each has promised his son, and he must not fail." Now the "he" can refer to either of the respective sons or to the fathers. Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power caused by switching from Both . . . they to Each . . . his is also unfortunate. There's no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be desired-mainly clarity. Not that I'd want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it's meant to be published somewhere. Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar question "Each has promised his son..." is for me the least ambiguous. Dick On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Wrong pronoun. Both have promised "his" son. --- On Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Grammar question To: [log in to unmask] Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 12:53 PM Found in a book on screenwriting: "In that film, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [sic] battle to achieve the same goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must not fail." My question concerns the clause "both of them have promised their son . . . ." Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, sons wouldn't work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you suggest? Thank you, Martha _____ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:34:53 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: politics on ATEG; instance of semantic broadening To: [log in to unmask] The ATEG list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far afield, resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets for political screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this list should lose their privilege to participate in it. To change the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver newspaper reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado mass murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and likely for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has broadened from its original meaning to denote simply a male person, with apparently neutral connotation. Dick To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta = http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face 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font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; font-size:10.0pt;} @page WordSection1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in;} div.WordSection1 {page:WordSection1;} /* List Definitions */ @list l0 {mso-list-id:1490440284; mso-list-type:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:135004700 -1655517706 67698713 67698715 67698703 = 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;} @list l0:level1 {mso-level-text:"%1\)"; mso-level-tab-stop:none; mso-level-number-position:left; margin-left:.75in; text-indent:-.25in;} ol {margin-bottom:0in;} ul {margin-bottom:0in;} --></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue = vlink=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>“Each has promised his son . . . “ is an improvement, but = the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Because <i>promise</i> is transitive, “Each has promised his = son, “ allows for more than one interpretation: = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'> = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>He promised (to) his son that . . . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'> = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>He promised his son in exchange for something = else.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the = ambiguity is distracting. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with = the referent when the pronouns are adjusted = accordingly:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>“Each has promised his son, and he must not fail.” Now = the “he” can refer to either of the respective sons or to = the fathers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power = caused by switching from <i>Both . . . they</i> to <i>Each . . . his</i> = is also unfortunate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>There’s no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be = desired—mainly clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Not that I’d want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but = rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it’s meant = to be published somewhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dick = Veit<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> = [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar = question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><i>"</i>Each has promised his = son..." is for me the least = ambiguous.<br><br>Dick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, = Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in = 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wrong pronoun. Both have promised = "his" son.<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin = <i><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Martha Galphin <<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Grammar = question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, July 20, = 2012, 12:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Found in a book on = screenwriting:</span><span = style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>“In that film, Arnold = Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [<i>sic</i>] battle to achieve the same = goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that = Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must = not fail.” </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My question concerns the = clause “both of them have promised their son . . . .” = Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the = meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in = common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, <u>sons</u> = wouldn’t work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you = suggest?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank = you,<br>Martha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" = align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 = 14:34:53 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: politics on ATEG; = instance of semantic broadening<br>To: <a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><br>The ATEG = list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other = language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political = viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far = afield, resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets = for political screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this = list should lose their privilege to participate in it.<br><br>To change = the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver newspaper = reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado mass = murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and = likely for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has = broadened from its original meaning to denote simply a male person, with = apparently neutral connotation.<br><br>Dick<br>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a = href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p= class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's = web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> = <o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or = leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's = web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu= ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the = list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a = href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <br>_____ <br>This email = has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam = System.<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6731.4CCD3DF0-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:40:06 -0400 From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Grammar question This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Okay, so I'm drawn to the challenge. Keep in mind I haven't seen the movie, so I have made up plot . . . ignore that . . . it's about the language. Every dad wants to be a hero , and at Christmas the stakes are high-especially when gifts are a way to make up for broken promises and too much time away from home. Fathers, Howard and Myron (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad respectively), each have a son, and both dads have made Christmas Eve promises to bring home Turbo Man-the runaway hit toy of the holiday season. There's just one problem: there's only one Turbo Man left. Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Richard Grant Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:09 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar question "Each has promised his son . . . " is an improvement, but the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. Because promise is transitive, "Each has promised his son, " allows for more than one interpretation: 1) He promised (to) his son that . . . 2) He promised his son in exchange for something else. The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the ambiguity is distracting. An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with the referent when the pronouns are adjusted accordingly: "Each has promised his son, and he must not fail." Now the "he" can refer to either of the respective sons or to the fathers. Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power caused by switching from Both . . . they to Each . . . his is also unfortunate. There's no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be desired-mainly clarity. Not that I'd want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it's meant to be published somewhere. Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 5:22 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Grammar question "Each has promised his son..." is for me the least ambiguous. Dick On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Wrong pronoun. Both have promised "his" son. --- On Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Grammar question To: [log in to unmask] Date: Friday, July 20, 2012, 12:53 PM Found in a book on screenwriting: "In that film, Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [sic] battle to achieve the same goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must not fail." My question concerns the clause "both of them have promised their son . . . ." Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, sons wouldn't work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you suggest? Thank you, Martha _____ Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 14:34:53 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: politics on ATEG; instance of semantic broadening To: [log in to unmask] The ATEG list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far afield, resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets for political screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this list should lose their privilege to participate in it. To change the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver newspaper reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado mass murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and likely for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has broadened from its original meaning to denote simply a male person, with apparently neutral connotation. Dick To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" = xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" = xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" = xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" = xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><META = HTTP-EQUIV=3D"Content-Type" CONTENT=3D"text/html; = charset=3Dus-ascii"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Microsoft Word 12 = (filtered medium)"><!--[if !mso]><style>v\:* = {behavior:url(#default#VML);} o\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} w\:* {behavior:url(#default#VML);} .shape {behavior:url(#default#VML);} </style><![endif]--><style><!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; 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Fathers, Howard and = Myron (played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and Sinbad respectively), each = have a son, and both dads have made Christmas Eve promises to bring home = Turbo Man—the runaway hit toy of the holiday season. There’s = just one problem: there’s only one Turbo Man left. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar = [mailto:[log in to unmask]] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Richard = Grant<br><b>Sent:</b> Saturday, July 21, 2012 11:09 AM<br><b>To:</b> = [log in to unmask]<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar = question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>“Each has promised his son . . . “ is an improvement, but = the writing as a whole is still ambiguous and incohesive. = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Because <i>promise</i> is transitive, “Each has promised his = son, “ allows for more than one interpretation: = <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>1)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'> = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>He promised (to) his son that . . . <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoListParagraph = style=3D'margin-left:.75in;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 = lfo2'><![if !supportLists]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><span style=3D'mso-list:Ignore'>2)<span style=3D'font:7.0pt "Times = New Roman"'> = </span></span></span><![endif]><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>He promised his son in exchange for something = else.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>The context of course helps clarify which is intended, but the = ambiguity is distracting. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>An additional problem created by this choice is the incohesion with = the referent when the pronouns are adjusted = accordingly:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>“Each has promised his son, and he must not fail.” Now = the “he” can refer to either of the respective sons or to = the fathers.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Even if that ambiguity is ignored, the phonological loss of power = caused by switching from <i>Both . . . they</i> to <i>Each . . . his</i> = is also unfortunate.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>There’s no denying our pronoun system leaves a little to be = desired—mainly clarity.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'text-indent:.5in'><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Not that I’d want to spend my Sunday morning doing it, but = rewriting the whole piece would be worth the effort if it’s meant = to be published somewhere.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'>Richard<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span = style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497= D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div = style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in = 0in 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span = style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>= </b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> = Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<= /a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Dick Veit<br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, July 20, 2012 = 5:22 PM<br><b>To:</b> <a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]</a><br>= <b>Subject:</b> Re: Grammar question<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><i>"</i>Each has promised his = son..." is for me the least = ambiguous.<br><br>Dick<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Fri, = Jul 20, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Scott Lavitt <<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><table = class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 = cellpadding=3D0><tr><td valign=3Dtop style=3D'padding:0in 0in 0in = 0in'><p class=3DMsoNormal>Wrong pronoun. Both have promised = "his" son.<br><br>--- On <b>Fri, 7/20/12, Martha Galphin = <i><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>></i></b> = wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal = style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>From: Martha Galphin <<a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>Subject: Grammar = question<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Date: Friday, July 20, = 2012, 12:53 PM<o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Found in a book on = screenwriting:</span><span = style=3D'font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> = </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>“In that film, Arnold = Schwarzenegger and Sinbad [<i>sic</i>] battle to achieve the same = goal--the acquisition of the last popular action figure for sale that = Christmas season. Both of them have promised their son, and they must = not fail.” </span><o:p></o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>My question concerns the = clause “both of them have promised their son . . . .” = Other than a rewriting of this sentence, is there any way to clarify the = meaning? Now it reads as though Schwarzenegger and Sinbad have a son in = common which is not the case. (Each has only one son; so, <u>sons</u> = wouldn’t work.) If rewriting is the answer, what would you = suggest?</span><o:p></o:p></p><p><o:p> </o:p></p><p><span = style=3D'font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank = you,<br>Martha</span><o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div class=3DMsoNormal = align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'><hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" = align=3Dcenter></div><p class=3DMsoNormal>Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2012 = 14:34:53 -0400<br>From: <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br>Subject: politics on ATEG; = instance of semantic broadening<br>To: <a = href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" = target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br><br>The ATEG = list is dedicated to discussion of teaching grammar and other = language-related issues. Its members represent a range of political = viewpoints, and even serious political discussion would take us far = afield, resolving nothing, and engender rancor. There are many outlets = for political screeds; ATEG is not one of them. Those who abuse this = list should lose their privilege to participate in it.<br><br>To change = the topic back to language: it was jarring to hear a Denver newspaper = reporter, interviewed on NPR this morning, describe the Colorado mass = murderer as "the gentleman who did this." For the reporter and = likely for some Americans as well, the word "gentleman" has = broadened from its original meaning to denote simply a male person, with = apparently neutral connotation.<br><br>Dick<br>To join or leave this = LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at <a = href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><p= class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's = web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a> = <o:p></o:p></p></div></td></tr></table><p class=3DMsoNormal>To join or = leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" = target=3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and = select "Join or leave the list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's = web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" = target=3D"_blank">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><p = class=3DMsoNormal><br>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit = the list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu= ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the = list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a = href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a> <br>_____ <br>This email = has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam = System.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>_____ <br>This email has = been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System.<o:p></o:p></p><p = class=3DMsoNormal>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the = list's web interface at: <a = href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html">http://listserv.mu= ohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a> and select "Join or leave the = list" <o:p></o:p></p><p>Visit ATEG's web site at <a = href=3D"http://ateg.org/">http://ateg.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></body= ></html> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" <p> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CD6746.5747B020-- ------------------------------ End of ATEG Digest - 20 Jul 2012 to 21 Jul 2012 (#2012-63) ********************************************************** To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/