Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:10:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's the use of "whom" - "from whom he was never apart." My sense of the language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "who he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy Grammarian, this construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of who instead of the "correct" whom; and second is the use of the preposition from at the end of the sentence. In spite of those "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is actually better than the original, as it refers to "advisors" more quickly and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who . . ." instead of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should also be used in standard written English.
Geoff Layton
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
To: [log in to unmask]
Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of
issue before, but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your
thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article English
Reformation:
. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was
never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.
Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that
requirement is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this way
to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and
successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's the use of "whom" - "from
whom he was never apart." My sense of the language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "
who he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy Grammarian, this construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of
who instead of the "correct"
whom; and second is the use of the preposition
from at the end of the sentence. In spite of those "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is actually better than the original, as it refers to "advisors" more quickly and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who . . ." instead of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should also be used in standard written English.
Geoff Layton
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
To:
[log in to unmask]
Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of
issue before, but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your
thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article English
Reformation:
. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was
never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.
Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that
requirement is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this way
to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and
successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_58ba4673-2cc4-415f-8999-f0e57dd67f0c_--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 12:18:08 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Geoff,
For clarification, when you say the "incorrect" sentence works better, are
you saying that the preposition is better at the end, or that "who" is
better than "whom" in the sentence, or both?
Dick
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's
> the use of "whom" - "from *whom* he was never apart." My sense of the
> language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that
> most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "*who*he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy Grammarian, this
> construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of
> *who* instead of the "correct" *whom*; and second is the use of the
> preposition *from* at the end of the sentence. In spite of those
> "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is
> actually better than the original, as it refers to "advisors" more quickly
> and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who . . ." instead
> of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should also be used
> in standard written English.
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of issue before,
> but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts
> again. Thank you.
>
>
> From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article
> English Reformation:
> . . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was
> never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his
> ear.
>
> Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a
> subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement
> is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
>
> This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this
> way to my ESL students.
>
> Martha G.
>
> PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
>
>
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Geoff,
For clarification, when you say the "incorrect" sentence works better, are you saying that the preposition is better at the end, or that "who" is better than "whom" in the sentence, or both?
Dick
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Geoffrey Layton
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's the use of "whom" - "from
whom he was never apart." My sense of the language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "
who he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy Grammarian, this construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of
who instead of the "correct"
whom; and second is the use of the preposition
from at the end of the sentence. In spite of those "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is actuallybetter than the original,as it refers to "advisors" more quickly and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who . . ." instead of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should alsobe used in standard written English.
Geoff Layton
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
To:
[log in to unmask]
Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of
issue before, but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your
thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article English
Reformation:
. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was
never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.
Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that
requirement is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this way
to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and
successful.
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--f46d041825bcf5eb3204c636a33d--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 03:45:11 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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I would argue that the "whom" rule has never actually existed as a part of the English we learn growing up. It is a function of education and class and as such has taken root in the informal spoken English of those who descend from generations that have mastered formal written English and assume that informal spoken English should be like it. On this grammatical issue the "good old days" when everyone knew and obeyed the who/whom rules never happened. The same inconsistency in usage we find and frown on today occurs in English literature going back a thousand years.
The rule is an artifact of formal grammatical education. Whether that fact ultimately makes any difference is not a grammatical question but a sociological one.
I remember attending a TESOL convention many years ago where I picked up a badge that said "I favor whom's doom." I think it disappeared from my office sometime in the next couple of decades. I hope the student or colleague who has it has treasured it as I did.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Dick Veit [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 12:18 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
Geoff,
For clarification, when you say the "incorrect" sentence works better, are you saying that the preposition is better at the end, or that "who" is better than "whom" in the sentence, or both?
Dick
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's the use of "whom" - "from whom he was never apart." My sense of the language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "who he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy Grammarian, this construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of who instead of the "correct" whom; and second is the use of the preposition from at the end of the sentence. In spite of those "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is actually better than the original, as it refers to "advisors" more quickly and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who . . ." instead of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should also be used in standard written English.
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
To: [log in to unmask]
Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of issue before, but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article English Reformation:
. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.
Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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I would argue that the "whom" rule has never actually existed as a part of the English we learn growing up. It is a function of education and class and as such has taken root in
the informal spoken English of those who descend from generations that have mastered formal written English and assume that informal spoken English should be like it. On this grammatical issue the "good old days" when everyone knew and obeyed the who/whom
rules never happened. The same inconsistency in usage we find and frown on today occurs in English literature going back a thousand years.
The rule is an artifact of formal grammatical education. Whether that fact ultimately makes any difference is not a grammatical question but a sociological one.
I remember attending a TESOL convention many years ago where I picked up a badge that said "I favor whom's doom." I think it disappeared from my office sometime in the next couple of decades. I hope the student or colleague who has it has treasured it as
I did.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
Geoff,
For clarification, when you say the "incorrect" sentence works better, are you saying that the preposition is better at the end, or that "who" is better than "whom" in the sentence, or both?
Dick
On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 11:10 AM, Geoffrey Layton
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
There's another issue in this post that hasn't been addressed, and that's the use of "whom" - "from
whom he was never apart." My sense of the language today is that "whom" is quickly disappearing from use, and that most native speakers today would say (at least in conversation), "
who he was almost ever apart from." Now to the Fussy
Grammarian, this construction has problems on two counts - first, of course, is the use of
who instead of the "correct"
whom; and second is the use of the preposition
from at the end of the sentence. In spite of those "errors," I would maintain that this "incorrect" sentence is actually better than the original, as it refers to "advisors" more quickly and clearly than the "correct" version ("by his advisors who .
. ." instead of "by his advisors from whom . . . "), and therefore should also be used in standard written English.
Geoff Layton
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 10:02:45 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
To:
[log in to unmask]
Help me with this again, please. Ive raised this kind of issue before, but I cant remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article English Reformation:
. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.
Am I to understand whoever is correct because the verb had needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement is more important than the preposition to requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I dont think I should explain it this way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 09:55:10 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Wanda Van Goor <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
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I see the whole clause as the object of the preposition "to"--and whom"
doesn't even enter the discussion;it's "who" as the subject of "had"--
Missed you at the ATEG meeting...
In a message dated 8/1/2012 10:03:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Help me with this again, please. I’ve raised this kind of issue before,
but I can’t remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts
again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article “
English Reformation”:
“. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was
never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his
ear.”
Am I to understand “whoever” is correct because the verb “had” needs a
subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement
is more important than the preposition “to” requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I don’t think I should explain it this
way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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I see the whole clause as the object of the preposition
"to"--and whom" doesn't even enter the discussion;it's "who" as the subject of
"had"--
Missed you at the ATEG meeting...
In a message dated 8/1/2012 10:03:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
[log in to unmask] writes:
Help me with this again, please. I’ve raised this kind of
issue before, but I can’t remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate
your thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the
Wikipedia article “English Reformation”:
“. . .he allowed himself to be
influenced by his advisors from whom he was never apart, by night or day; he
was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.”
Am I to understand
“whoever” is correct because the verb “had” needs a subject, put better, the
clause needs a subject, and that that requirement is more important than the
preposition “to” requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself,
but I don’t think I should explain it this way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and
successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit
the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 08:41:04 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Philip Bralich <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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You are correct, and since the “whoever” is the subject of that embedded noun clause (nominative) and not the object (accusative), the “whom” is not allowed. Had the wh-word been an object of the embedded noun clause, as in example (2) below, the “whom” would have been required.
(1)
Here is the pattern of the sentence in question where the subject of the noun clause object of “to” is the head of the noun clause and “whom” is definitely precluded:
a) He was susceptible to WHOEVER è
b) He was susceptible to WHOEVER came through the door
[Subj] [V] [PP]
(2)
Here is the pattern of a similar sentence where the object of the embedded noun clause is the head and one where “whom” is required.
a) He was susceptible to WHOMEVER
b) He was susceptible to WHOMEVER John sent.
[Obj of V] [Subj] [V]
Both (1a) and (2a) are good standalone sentences, but the use of the relative pronoun presupposes the elision of a full clause like those in (1b) and (2b).
Sincerely,
Phil Bralich
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wanda Van Goor
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 6:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
I see the whole clause as the object of the preposition "to"--and whom" doesn't even enter the discussion;it's "who" as the subject of "had"--
Missed you at the ATEG meeting...
In a message dated 8/1/2012 10:03:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
Help me with this again, please. I’ve raised this kind of issue before, but I can’t remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article “English Reformation”:
“. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.”
Am I to understand “whoever” is correct because the verb “had” needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement is more important than the preposition “to” requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I don’t think I should explain it this way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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You are correct, and since the “whoever” is the subject of that embedded noun clause (nominative) and not the object (accusative), the “whom” is not allowed. Had the wh-word been an object of the embedded noun clause, as in example (2) below, the “whom” would have been required.
(1)
Here is the pattern of the sentence in question where the subject of the noun clause object of “to” is the head of the noun clause and “whom” is definitely precluded:
a) He was susceptible to WHOEVER è
b) He was susceptible to WHOEVER came through the door
[Subj] [V] [PP]
(2)
Here is the pattern of a similar sentence where the object of the embedded noun clause is the head and one where “whom” is required.
a) He was susceptible to WHOMEVER
b) He was susceptible to WHOMEVER John sent.
[Obj of V] [Subj] [V]
Both (1a) and (2a) are good standalone sentences, but the use of the relative pronoun presupposes the elision of a full clause like those in (1b) and (2b).
Sincerely,
Phil Bralich
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wanda Van Goor
Sent: Saturday, August 04, 2012 6:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: subject of a clause vs object of a preposition
I see the whole clause as the object of the preposition "to"--and whom" doesn't even enter the discussion;it's "who" as the subject of "had"--
Missed you at the ATEG meeting...
In a message dated 8/1/2012 10:03:08 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes:
Help me with this again, please. I’ve raised this kind of issue before, but I can’t remember your answers. Sorry. I would appreciate your thoughts again. Thank you.
From a statement regarding King Henry VIII from the Wikipedia article “English Reformation”:
“. . .he allowed himself to be influenced by his advisors from whom he was never apart, by night or day; he was thus susceptible to whoever had his ear.”
Am I to understand “whoever” is correct because the verb “had” needs a subject, put better, the clause needs a subject, and that that requirement is more important than the preposition “to” requiring an object?
This is the way I guide myself, but I don’t think I should explain it this way to my ESL students.
Martha G.
PS Hope the conference was enjoyable and successful.
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------=_NextPart_000_00DC_01CD721C.E2EF0B60--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 20:53:11 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: QES RIP
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The Subject line is not original. It comes from an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal
http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/30210221/English-and-the-language-polic.html
about the recent demise of the Queen's English Society.
Herb
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========================================================================Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 09:13:50 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: QES RIP
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick.
Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the
morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died
out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
John
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> The Subject line is not original. It comes from an interesting article in
> the Wall Street Journal
>
>
> http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/30210221/English-and-the-language-polic.html
>
> about the recent demise of the Queen's English Society.
>
> Herb
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
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--e89a8f23433b950ec704c6d4fff7
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Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick. Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
John
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--e89a8f23433b950ec704c6d4fff7--
========================================================================Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 12:32:37 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Dews-Alexander <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: QES RIP
In-Reply-To: [log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundarydae93404f1e6c5d104c6d89e0b
--14dae93404f1e6c5d104c6d89e0b
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Thanks for the article, Herb! I've been away from email for an extended
period. This was a nice piece to read upon returning! I love the
paraphrase, John! How accurate!
John
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:13 AM, John Crow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick.
> Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the
> morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died
> out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
>
> John
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> The Subject line is not original. It comes from an interesting article
>> in the Wall Street Journal
>>
>>
>> http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/30210221/English-and-the-language-polic.html
>>
>> about the recent demise of the Queen's English Society.
>>
>> Herb
>>
>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
>> interface at:
>> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>> and select "Join or leave the list"
>>
>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
--
John
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--14dae93404f1e6c5d104c6d89e0b
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Thanks for the article, Herb! I've been away from email for an extended period. This was a nice piece to read upon returning! I love the paraphrase, John! How accurate!
John
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:13 AM, John Crow
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick. Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
John
--
John
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--14dae93404f1e6c5d104c6d89e0b--
========================================================================Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:11:01 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: QES RIP
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6427E232BABY2PRD0411MB415_"
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--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6427E232BABY2PRD0411MB415_
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Unfortunately, whenever grammar comes up as a public issue--which it does quite rarely--it's generally about why the stuffy, elitist, traditional grammar folk have it all wrong. Grammar is generally framed as a question about whether we should try to "control" or "improve" the language or simply let it go its own way. Neither solution seems particularly attractive to me. Within the scope of public discourse, we never seem to have a focus on how a deeper understanding of how language works can help in reading and writing. We seem to have no attention at all to newer ways of looking at language and their implications. Grammar is still regressive. We are losing the PR battle.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Dews-Alexander [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:32 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: QES RIP
Thanks for the article, Herb! I've been away from email for an extended period. This was a nice piece to read upon returning! I love the paraphrase, John! How accurate!
John
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:13 AM, John Crow <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick. Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
John
On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 4:53 PM, Stahlke, Herbert <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The Subject line is not original. It comes from an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal
http://www.livemint.com/2012/07/30210221/English-and-the-language-polic.html
about the recent demise of the Queen's English Society.
Herb
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--
John
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--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6427E232BABY2PRD0411MB415_
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Unfortunately, whenever grammar comes up as a public issue--which it does quite rarely--it's generally about why the stuffy, elitist, traditional grammar folk have it all wrong. Grammar is generally framed as a question about whether we should try to "control"
or "improve" the language or simply let it go its own way. Neither solution seems particularly attractive to me. Within the scope of public discourse, we never seem to have a focus on how a deeper understanding of how language works can help in reading and
writing. We seem to have no attention at all to newer ways of looking at language and their implications. Grammar is still regressive. We are losing the PR battle.
Craig
Thanks for the article, Herb! I've been away from email for an extended period. This was a nice piece to read upon returning! I love the paraphrase, John! How accurate!
John
On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:13 AM, John Crow
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Thanks, Herb--always happy to see prescriptive grammarians take a lick. Somebody once wrote (and I paraphrase) that English teachers were the morticians of the language and that, once a certain feature or "rule" died out, they were the only ones at the funeral.
John
--
John
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--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6427E232BABY2PRD0411MB415_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:55:47 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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--f46d04428104b4326804c7387d66
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I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that
purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The
researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar
skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the *L.A.
Times*with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
*The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test.
And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed
worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test
yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected
your grammar. *
*1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.*
*2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of
those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.*
*3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large
that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!*
*4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals
presented to
the club.*
*5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his
daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)*
*The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5.
incorrect (it should be "afraid"). *
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story
)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with
grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in
statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations.
If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help
us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--f46d04428104b4326804c7387d66
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I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar
test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently
performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you
can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has
affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--f46d04428104b4326804c7387d66--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:21:24 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Melinda Schwenk-Borrell <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect) The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story )
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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------=_Part_49824_1496138441.1344950483998
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Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid"). (Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------=_Part_49824_1496138441.1344950483998--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "MARLOW, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:28:36 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: helene hoover <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or, possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague picture in my mind!
Helene
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
Best,
D
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
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That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or, possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague picture in my mind!
Helene
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To:
[log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_8927f7cb-dfbd-45d1-b2a1-9eff1f968bd9_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:32:04 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Carlton, Rebecca" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:35:56 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Carlton, Rebecca" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
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I had the same thought. At first, I thought the comma after "worried" was the incorrect part.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of helene hoover
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or, possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague picture in my mind!
Helene
________________________________
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon...
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old man's nerves were frayed... Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
Best,
D
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
________________________________
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim's name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don't know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It's, Its') an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
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I had the same thought. At first, I thought the comma after “worried” was the incorrect part.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of helene hoover
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or, possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague picture in my mind!
Helene
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon…
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old man’s nerves were frayed… Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think
or write!
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From:
"John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me
to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's
a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is
informing our educators, God help us!
John
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 12:08:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]>
Organization: Washington Adventist University
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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It's one of the incorrect parts. There's also a comma missing toward the end
of the sentence. It should separate the parenthetical comment-waiting for
his daughter-from the floor. As it is currently written, the punctuation
implies that it is the floor waiting for his daughter. While it is true that
many fathers have been floored, no floors have been fathered.
And then there is the issue of style.
John, couldn't agree with you more about the pseudo-academic nature of this.
Would sentence #4 be correct if "It's" were chosen? What about the missing
commas to separate the three items in the list?
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlton, Rebecca
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I had the same thought. At first, I thought the comma after "worried" was
the incorrect part.
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of helene hoover
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:29 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or,
possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague
picture in my mind!
Helene
_____
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon.
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his
daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old man's nerves were frayed. Shows my
age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would
ever think or write!
Best,
D
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to
understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think
or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
_____
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that
purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The
researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar
skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times
with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And
it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse
on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself --
or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim's name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those
who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don't know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large
that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It's, Its') an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals
presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his
daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5.
incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-gra
mmar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story
)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with
grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in
statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If
this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
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It’s one of the incorrect parts. There’s also a comma missing toward the end of the sentence. It should separate the parenthetical comment—waiting for his daughter—from the floor. As it is currently written, the punctuation implies that it is the floor waiting for his daughter. While it is true that many fathers have been floored, no floors have been fathered.
And then there is the issue of style.
John, couldn’t agree with you more about the pseudo-academic nature of this.
Would sentence #4 be correct if “It’s” were chosen? What about the missing commas to separate the three items in the list?
Richard
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlton, Rebecca
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 10:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I had the same thought. At first, I thought the comma after “worried” was the incorrect part.
That was precisely what I thought, too--either his nerves were frayed or, possibly, his appearance--hair mussed, clothes wrinkled--just a vague picture in my mind!
Helene
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon…
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old man’s nerves were frayed… Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 13:25:54 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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That's great! I read it the same way as David!
Martha G.
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon I rather like 5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter. My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write! Best, D From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture? Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write! Melinda BorrellAdjunct Professor of Communication, UMUCFrom: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar. 1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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That's great! I read it the same way as David!
Martha G.
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To:
[log in to unmask]Just to jump on the band wagon
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write! Melinda BorrellAdjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar. 1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 18:16:43 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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These seem to me to be questions about confusing words (frayed, afraid, accept, except) or spelling. (Lose versus loose. It's versus its.) It's not a test of grammar.
Creative spelling seems a natural part of text messaging, often in service of compression, whereas many writing registers require conventional spelling. I see no reason to expect that normal kids won't adjust quite well to both worlds.
In the meantime, the notion that any "error" is grammar is harmful. The test reveals the ignorance of the test maker, nothing more.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Martha Galphin [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 1:25 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
That's great! I read it the same way as David!
Martha G.
________________________________
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever think or write!
Best,
D
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
________________________________
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
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These seem to me to be questions about confusing words (frayed, afraid, accept, except) or spelling. (Lose versus loose. It's versus its.) It's not a test of grammar.
Creative spelling seems a natural part of text messaging, often in service of compression, whereas many writing registers require conventional spelling. I see no reason to expect that normal kids won't adjust quite well to both worlds.
In the meantime, the notion that any "error" is grammar is harmful. The test reveals the ignorance of the test maker, nothing more.
Craig
That's great! I read it the same way as David!
Martha G.
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:20:15 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To:
[log in to unmask]
Just to jump on the band wagon
I rather like
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
My automatic reading was that the old mans nerves were frayed Shows my age, I suppose, as this is also likely something that no young person would ever
think or write!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Melinda Schwenk-Borrell
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 9:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
Good points on the questions, which are also vaguely worded and hard to understand. They are also sentences that no young person would ever think or write!
Melinda Borrell
Adjunct Professor of Communication, UMUC
From: "John Crow" <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 7:55:47 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me
to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions,
so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is
informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:20:59 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Is Our Children Learning Enough Grammar to Get Hired?
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Of interest in today's *NY Times*, five essays on "Is Our Children Learning
Enough Grammar to Get
Hired?"
Also a curious essay, "Where Do Sentences Come
From?"
by Verlyn Klinkenborg.
Dick
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Of interest in today's NY Times, five essays on "Is Our Children Learning Enough Grammar to Get Hired?" Also a curious essay, "Where Do Sentences Come From?" by Verlyn Klinkenborg.
Dick
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:28:40 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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For # 5, I like 'frayed' - I often am in such a condition myself! However, I
would remove the comma after 'worried' and might even place it after 'floor'.
Just a thought.
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable
fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, August 14, 2012 7:59:43 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to
establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded
that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the
article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including
this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it
turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the
exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids
-- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that
it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals
presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose;
4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with
grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in
statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If
this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the
list"
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To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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For # 5, I like 'frayed' - I often am in such a condition myself! However, I would remove the comma after 'worried' and might even place it after 'floor'.
Just a thought.
Paul
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
From: John Crow <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tue, August 14, 2012 7:59:43 AM
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the
L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has affected your grammar.
1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.
2. Fortunately, Jim’s name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.
3. I don’t know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!
4. (Its, It’s, Its’) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.
5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)
The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid"). (Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--1335665764-359641012-1345055320=:33139--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:05:48 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: What's Wrong with This Picture?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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TO ALL WHO REPLIED TO THIS POST (AND OTHERS!): What's wrong with this picture now is that it lacks an article on testing for the ATEG Journal! How do we test for grammar skills? Should we?
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:55:47 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To: [log in to unmask]
I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar
test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently
performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you
can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has
affected your grammar. 1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source: http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
TO ALL WHO REPLIED TO THIS POST (AND OTHERS!):
What's wrong with this picture now is that it lacks an article on testing for the ATEG Journal! How do we test for grammar skills? Should we?
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 07:55:47 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: What's Wrong with This Picture?
To:
[log in to unmask]I was reading an article in the NCLE SmartBrief about research that purported to establish a link between texting and grammar skills. The researchers concluded that the more students text, the weaker their grammar skills are. A link in the article took me to an article in the
L.A. Times with more details, including this little gem, and I quote:
The researchers had kids from ages 10 to 14 take a little grammar
test. And it turned out that those who sent or received texts recently
performed worse on the exam. Here's a sample of the questions, so you
can test yourself -- or your kids -- to see how the text saturation has
affected your grammar. 1. During the flood, we (dranked, drank, drunk, drunked) bottled water.2. Fortunately, Jims name was (accepted, excepted) from the roster of those who
would have to clean bathrooms because he was supposed to go downtown to
(accept, except) a reward for the German Club.3. I dont know how I could (lose, loose) such a big dress. It is so large that it is
(lose, loose) on me when I wear it!4. (Its, Its, Its) an honor to accept the awards certificates and medals presented to
the club.5. Worried, and frayed, the old man paced the floor waiting for his daughter.
(Correct/Incorrect)The answers: 1. drank; 2. excepted, accept; 3. lose, loose; 4. It's; 5. incorrect (it should be "afraid").
(Source:
http://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-texting-ruining-kids-grammar-skills-20120801,0,1365582.story)
Really?! Three out of the five sample questions have nothing to do with grammar--they are spelling issues. Furthermore, as any basic course in statistics will emphasize, one cannot infer causality from correlations. If this is the kind of research that is informing our educators, God help us!
John
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_85e11147-c9dd-4e7a-8633-5045f2d8c955_--
========================================================================Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 20:01:17 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Quick Common Core question
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Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
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========================================================================Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 02:20:25 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "=". Rest of header
flushed.
From: "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
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Bill,
I don't know what's happening in more recent documents, but when the new Indiana language arts standards came out ten years ago or so I went over them closely, identifying every statement that referred to or could reasonably be interpreted as identifying metalinguistic knowledge. There was quite a lot, certainly plenty of justification for a linguistically rich language arts curriculum. However, that's not how the state and many school corporations in Indiana interpreted the standards. Basically, little changedin the curriculum in the way of grammatical and linguistic content.
I think these statements are intentionally or, perhaps more generously, inadvertently written to be vague. And then they tend to get interpreted in the least rigorous sense.
Herb
Herbert F. W. Stahlke, Ph.D.
Emeritus Professor of English
Ball State University
Muncie, IN 47306
[log in to unmask]
________________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Spruiell, William C [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quick Common Core question
Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Bill,
Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
Ed V.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quick Common Core question
Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:29:58 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
Sincerely,
Bill S.
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:45:18 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical
annotations):
1. *Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and
usage when writing or speaking* (I'd agree there is no specific demand here
for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room
for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the
requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of
the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe
that's another discussion in itself...).
a. *Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can
change over time, and is sometimes contested* (How does one apply this
understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive
conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher
here, necessarily).
b.* Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references
(e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern
American Usage) as needed* (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a
complex jargon).
3. *Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in
different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to
comprehend more fully when reading or listening* (This is clearly
metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in
specific terms.).
a. *Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful
Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the
study of complex texts when reading* (When students are asked to apply or
demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to
determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte
or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information
to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to
use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and
prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students
should be able to *Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles,
infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences* and *Use
knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading,
or listening*. None of that is done without metacognition and application
of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant
is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is
questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly;
the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the
Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is
that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded
within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding
of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC
standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I
can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I
remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs,
but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple
sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely
because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of
a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply
"producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at
grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice"
(I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native
English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use
actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll
get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil
down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or
have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if
your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of
those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies
if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't
taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in
the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:49:21 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "MARLOW, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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--_000_994B1DDEC62548B490B02B9CFE9D2AF6uscupstateedu_--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:19:46 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of
as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language
is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on
the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little
metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is
nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic
way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning
is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most
of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it
and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty
of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree
with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's
going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to
Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and
Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from
using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about"
grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should
be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar
sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language
impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have
language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years,
and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_--
========================================================================Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:26:20 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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David - You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you - say mid-December?
Geoff Layton
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
I might be willing... When do you need it?
< If you are out there saying, "oh, why didn't I speak sooner?!?", speak now... I'm interested in this, but have other irons in the fire as well, so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >
Best,
D
< Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors >
On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:50 PM, "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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David -
You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you - say mid-December?
Geoff Layton
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To:
[log in to unmask]I might be willing... When do you need it?
< If you are out there saying, "oh, why didn't I speak sooner?!?", speak now... I'm interested in this, but have other irons in the fire as well, so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >
Best,
D
< Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors >
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 11:59:44 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<
[log in to unmask]>
From: Jan Kammert <
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Is anyone else bothered by the use of the word "or" in #1 below? As
in... writing OR speaking? Does this mean writing AND speaking?
Does anyone know who was in the group that worked out the CC?
I am a middle school teacher, and I feel overwhelmed with both how many
standards there are, and how much more challenging they are than the
standards we have been using.
I also find most of the standards vague enough that I'm not always sure
what they mean. I'm not only talking about the language (grammar)
standards. English teachers have reading and writing standards too.
Jan
Quoting John Chorazy <
[log in to unmask]>:
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical
annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar
and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific
demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but
there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in
order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards
aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for
"college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in
itself...). a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of
convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does
one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in
a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the
classroom teacher here, necessarily). b. Resolve issues of complex or
contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s
Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as
needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<
[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<
[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Vavra <
[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <
[log in to unmask]>
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John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the "standards" (which are really objectives and not standards." For example, what does "by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences" mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most of my college students cannot identify "is," "are," "was," and "were" as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, Garner's Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte's Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <
[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
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John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:12:06 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the standards (which are really objectives and not standards. For example, what does by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify is, are, was, and were as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To:
[log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the standards (which are really objectives and not standards. For example, what does by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify is, are, was, and were as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_dde0ea24-b80d-40f5-b6d5-24446c0736cb_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:33:50 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Nicely put!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the "standards" (which are really objectives and not standards." For example, what does "by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences" mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most of my college students cannot identify "is," "are," "was," and "were" as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, Garner's Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte's Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Nicely put!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass
blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest,
it is a totally useless objective. Most of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1.
Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions,
but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another
discussion in itself...).
a.
Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in
a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage,
Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3.
Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This
is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a.
Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students
are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex
issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and
use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to
Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and
Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though
I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll
have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests
specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file
something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students
simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but
that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically
boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something
that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
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English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Geoff,
This seems especially true to me because in my state (and I've heard in
other states also) 25% of a teacher's evaluation will be based on how
well her students did on the end of year test.
But schools will no longer have to make Annual Yearly Progress. The
school as a whole will get no consequence, but the teacher will.
Jan
Quoting Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>:
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with
any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA
document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers).
Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting
of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be
wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:30:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Who can argue against "accountability"? I wonder what the response of the teachers' unions will be?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Geoff,
> This seems especially true to me because in my state (and I've heard in
> other states also) 25% of a teacher's evaluation will be based on how
> well her students did on the end of year test.
>
> But schools will no longer have to make Annual Yearly Progress. The
> school as a whole will get no consequence, but the teacher will.
> Jan
>
>
> Quoting Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>:
> As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with
> any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA
> document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers).
> Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting
> of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be
> wise and sound because we did it."
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Who can argue against "accountability"? I wonder what the response of the teachers' unions will be?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common CoTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:09:06 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott Carledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
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"Determine if this or that" gives you a choice. "Determine whether" would
be more appropriate if one has students who are neither second-language
learners nor linguistically impaired.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
There are 8 messages totalling 1774 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Quick Common Core question (8)
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Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Bill,
Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
Ed V.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quick Common Core question
Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:29:58 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
Sincerely,
Bill S.
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:45:18 -0400
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
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A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical
annotations):
1. *Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and
usage when writing or speaking* (I'd agree there is no specific demand here
for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room
for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the
requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of
the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe
that's another discussion in itself...).
a. *Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can
change over time, and is sometimes contested* (How does one apply this
understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive
conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher
here, necessarily).
b.* Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references
(e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern
American Usage) as needed* (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a
complex jargon).
3. *Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in
different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to
comprehend more fully when reading or listening* (This is clearly
metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in
specific terms.).
a. *Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful
Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the
study of complex texts when reading* (When students are asked to apply or
demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to
determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte
or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information
to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to
use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and
prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students
should be able to *Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles,
infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences* and *Use
knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading,
or listening*. None of that is done without metacognition and application
of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant
is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is
questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly;
the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the
Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is
that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded
within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding
of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC
standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I
can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I
remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs,
but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple
sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely
because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of
a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply
"producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at
grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice"
(I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native
English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use
actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll
get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil
down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or
have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if
your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of
those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies
if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't
taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in
the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:49:21 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_
Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: "MARLOW, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:19:46 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
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>
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>
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> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of
as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language
is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on
the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little
metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is
nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic
way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning
is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most
of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it
and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty
of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Websters Dictionary of English Usage, Garners Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree
with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tuftes Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's
going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to
Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and
Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from
using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about"
grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should
be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar
sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language
impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have
language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years,
and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:26:20 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
--_1f677562-dcaa-4595-aa16-19b08a9f5b3b_
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David - You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you - say mid-December?
Geoff Layton
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
I might be willing... When do you need it?
< If you are out there saying, "oh, why didn't I speak sooner?!?", speak now... I'm interested in this, but have other irons in the fire as well, so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >
Best,
D
< Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors >
On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:50 PM, "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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David -
You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you - say mid-December?
Geoff Layton
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To:
[log in to unmask]I might be willing... When do you need it?
< If you are out there saying, "oh, why didn't I speak sooner?!?", speak now... I'm interested in this, but have other irons in the fire as well, so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... >
Best,
D
< Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors >
Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From:
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
End of ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
**********************************************************
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========================================================================Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 23:03:12 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<
[log in to unmask]>
Comments: RFC822 error:
Invalid RFC822 field - "Is anyone familiar with
research on usage errors and me=". Rest of header flushed.
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: 20 most common usage errors--research? evidence?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="-1600601909-750299031-1345960992=:11326"
---1600601909-750299031-1345960992=:11326
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Dear Group,
Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction efforts work? What do they give us? While I don't want my students to make errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in reducing their errors.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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Dear Group,
Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction efforts work? What do they give us? While I don't want my students to make errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in reducing their errors.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---1600601909-750299031-1345960992=:11326--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:56:29 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 20 most common usage errors--research? evidence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary
--0016e6da98d305b4d704c82c6a30
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Scott,
I think this is probably the most carefully done research on usage errors
in American university student writing.
http://www.inventio.us/ccc/1988/12/robert-j-connors-and-andrea-a.html
Connors, Robert J., and Andrea A. Lunsford. "Frequency of Formal Errors in
Current College Writing, or Ma and Pa Kettle Do Research."* CCC* 39.4
(1988): 395-409.
Bob Yates
University of Central Missouri
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Dear Group,
>
> Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing
> them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What
> doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction
> efforts work? What do they give us? While I don't want my students to make
> errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in reducing
> their errors.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Scott Woods
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
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Scott,
I think this is probably the most carefully done research on usage errors in American university student writing.
Connors, Robert J., and Andrea A. Lunsford. "Frequency of Formal Errors in Current College Writing, or Ma and Pa Kettle Do Research."CCC39.4 (1988): 395-409.
Bob Yates
University of Central Missouri
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Scott Woods
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Group,
Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction efforts work? What do they give us? While I don't want my students to make errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in reducing their errors.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--0016e6da98d305b4d704c82c6a30--
========================================================================Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 18:03:50 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: 20 most common usage errors--research? evidence?
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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What the Lansford/Connors study deomstrates is that there was a great deal of uncertainty in the 1980's about appropriate ways to respond to writing. In the 1960's, it was simply understood that English teachers were supposed to "correct" student papers, so much so that "correcting papers" was the usual term for it. In the 1970's, I was trained to "respond" to student writing "in process," and the professional consensus, however limited its reach might have been, is that it is not necessary and probably not useful to correct all the "errors" in a paper. Error could be dealt with in the context of higher order concerns. There was also a sense that individual students would find their own path toward correctness. that they would "acquire" a standard English while attention was on other things. The discovery that teachers varied enormously in what errors they attended to didn't surprise me at the time.
Hillocks' meta-analysis of research (1986) focuses on those interventions that have proven to improve overall writing. They tossed out all studies that did not measure writing improvement through holistic assessment with well trained teachers and threw out studies that did not have control plus treatment groups. They tended to diminish the importance of surface level features.
Here's an interesting passage from Hillocks about the Elley study (p. 138): "The grammar groups did outperform the no-grammar classes on a test of usage an mechanics. However, the researchers analyzed the items of the test to determine the precise nature of the differences. They found that the differences appeared in items on the use of capitals, commas in lists, the apostrophe, possessives and contractions, commas for appositives, and so forth--all of which appear to be amenable to direct, discreet instruction." This seems to me typical of the general bias in the field at this time away from any kind of systematic instruction in grammar. The evidence seemed to show that this sort of instruction did have effects that most of us would embrace (admittedly, in a grammar test, not in actual writing), but this is dismissed on the untested assumption that these could be addressed within the context of writing. The Elley study is typical in that the treatment group was given instruction in grammar while the control group was given instruction in reading and creative writing. The fact that the grammar group did better on a grammar test but not on actual writing shouldn't lead us to conclude that grammar study doesn't improve writing, particularly iof we think of literacy as something that develops through a wide range of experiences, practice in writing being absolutely essential.
Hillocks does go on to say that there is no consensus on what level of mechanical performance is "acceptable" and no proven techniques for accomplishing that.
The Graham and Perrin meta-analysis (2007) pretty much echoes Hillocks in saying that formal grammar, taught in isolation, does not demonstrably improve writing when pre and post tested against control groups. Both studies say that sentence combining does work and there seems evidence that it works best when accompanied by conversation about language.
As Myhill points out in her essay in "Beyond the Grammar Wars" (locke, 2010), "Perhaps the absence of a cogent rationale for advocating grammar to improve children's writing is because, as yet, therre is no theoretical framework within which to locate the discussion." In other words, you first have to theorize a connection and then test the efficacy of that when put into practice. Myhill does exactly that in the Exeter study. (http://education.exeter.ac.uk/projects.php?id=419). Students and teachers are led to pay explicit attention to language within the context of their language, and the imporvments are statistically significant.
My position for a long time has been that you cannot teach writing by remediating deficiencies. On the other hand, students can benefit enormously from knowing about the hurdles they are expected to clear and knowing enough about language to meet those challenges, or at least place them within context. The operative question for me has been what knowledge about language can help students negotiate the complex language tasks that matter to them. I try to frame this in terms of constructing competence. To the extent that we treat language as a "behavior" that needs to be "corrected" we will fail, especially when we try to avoid a deeper understanding of the dynamics of language as we do so.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Robert Yates [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 10:56 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: 20 most common usage errors--research? evidence?
Scott,
I think this is probably the most carefully done research on usage errors in American university student writing.
http://www.inventio.us/ccc/1988/12/robert-j-connors-and-andrea-a.html
Connors, Robert J., and Andrea A. Lunsford. "Frequency of Formal Errors in Current College Writing, or Ma and Pa Kettle Do Research." CCC 39.4 (1988): 395-409.
Bob Yates
University of Central Missouri
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Group,
Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction efforts work? What do they give us? While I don't want my students to make errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in reducing their errors.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What the Lansford/Connors study deomstrates is that there was a great deal of uncertainty in the 1980's about appropriate ways to respond to writing. In the 1960's, it was simply
understood that English teachers were supposed to "correct" student papers, so much so that "correcting papers" was the usual term for it. In the 1970's, I was trained to "respond" to student writing "in process," and the professional consensus, however limited
its reach might have been, is that it is not necessary and probably not useful to correct all the "errors" in a paper. Error could be dealt with in the context of higher order concerns. There was also a sense that individual students would find their own path
toward correctness. that they would "acquire" a standard English while attention was on other things. The discovery that teachers varied enormously in what errors they attended to didn't surprise me at the time.
Hillocks' meta-analysis of research (1986) focuses on those interventions that have proven to improve overall writing. They tossed out all studies that did not measure writing improvement through holistic assessment with well trained teachers and threw
out studies that did not have control plus treatment groups. They tended to diminish the importance of surface level features.
Here's an interesting passage from Hillocks about the Elley study (p. 138): "The grammar groups did outperform the no-grammar classes on a test of usage an mechanics. However, the researchers analyzed the items of the test to determine the precise
nature of the differences. They found that the differences appeared in items on the use of capitals, commas in lists, the apostrophe, possessives and contractions, commas for appositives, and so forth--all of which appear to be amenable to direct, discreet
instruction." This seems to me typical of the general bias in the field at this time away from any kind of systematic instruction in grammar. The evidence seemed to show that this sort of instruction did have effects that most of us would embrace (admittedly,
in a grammar test, not in actual writing), but this is dismissed on the untested assumption that these could be addressed within the context of writing. The Elley study is typical in that the treatment group was given instruction in grammar while the control
group was given instruction in reading and creative writing. The fact that the grammar group did better on a grammar test but not on actual writing shouldn't lead us to conclude that grammar study doesn't improve writing, particularly iof we think of literacy
as something that develops through a wide range of experiences, practice in writing being absolutely essential.
Hillocks does go on to say that there is no consensus on what level of mechanical performance is "acceptable" and no proven techniques for accomplishing that.
The Graham and Perrin meta-analysis (2007) pretty much echoes Hillocks in saying that formal grammar, taught in isolation, does not demonstrably improve writing when pre and post tested against control groups. Both studies say that sentence combining
does work and there seems evidence that it works best when accompanied by conversation about language.
As Myhill points out in her essay in "Beyond the Grammar Wars" (locke, 2010), "Perhaps the absence of a cogent rationale for advocating grammar to improve children's writing is because, as yet, therre is no theoretical framework within which to locate
the discussion." In other words, you first have to theorize a connection and then test the efficacy of that when put into practice. Myhill does exactly that in the Exeter study. (
http://education.exeter.ac.uk/projects.php?id=419).
Students and teachers are led to pay explicit attention to language within the context of their language, and the imporvments are statistically significant.
My position for a long time has been that you cannot teach writing by remediating deficiencies. On the other hand, students can benefit enormously from knowing about the hurdles they are expected to clear and knowing enough about language to meet those
challenges, or at least place them within context. The operative question for me has been what knowledge about language can help students negotiate the complex language tasks that matter to them. I try to frame this in terms of constructing competence. To
the extent that we treat language as a "behavior" that needs to be "corrected" we will fail, especially when we try to avoid a deeper understanding of the dynamics of language as we do so.
Craig
Scott,
I think this is probably the most carefully done research on usage errors in American university student writing.
Connors, Robert J., and Andrea A. Lunsford. "Frequency of Formal Errors in Current College Writing, or Ma and Pa Kettle Do Research." CCC 39.4
(1988): 395-409.
Bob Yates
University of Central Missouri
On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 1:03 AM, Scott Woods
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear Group,
Is anyone familiar with research on usage errors and methods for reducing them in students' work? What really works for reducing usage errors? What doesn't work? How should we think of usage errors? Do error reduction efforts work? What do they give us?
While I don't want my students to make errors, I'm much more interested in improving their writing than in
reducing their errors.
Thanks,
Scott Woods
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--_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436776620BY2PRD0411MB415_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:43:26 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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Comments: RFC822 error: Invalid RFC822 field - "How would you analyze
more in the following sentence: =". Rest of header flushed.
From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: grammar question--more...than
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Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
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Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
---1488538659-1867463004-1346211806=:342--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:18:36 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: JULIE ZAVESKY <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Thinking in terms of how that sentence would be diagrammed, wouldn't "more . . . than" modify the verb, classifed as adverb or adjective?
(this is the first time I am weighing in. Hopefully all will be kind in telling me why I'm wrong.)
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question--more...than
Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
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Thinking in terms of how that sentence would be diagrammed, wouldn't "more . . . than" modify the verb, classifed as adverb or adjective?
(this is the first time I am weighing in. Hopefully all will be kind in telling me why I'm wrong.)
Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce
more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to
than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:08:40 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Julie,
Welcome to the list. I have offered plenty of wrong explanations over the years and have come to trust the process.
I think "more" is a comparative adjective that requires something to compare to. A pared down form of the sentence might be "A man has more nerve control than a woman." He could have "less nerve control than a woman" or "as much nerve control as a woman." Sometimes what you are comparing something to is clear from context; other times, it has to be made explicit. "He always wanted more money" means "more money than he already has."
Other adjectives act the same way in requiring complements to complete them. "I am happier than a clam." "Than a clam" is sometimes called an adjective complement.
I think it functions adjectivally and does so as a complex construction.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of JULIE ZAVESKY
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
Thinking in terms of how that sentence would be diagrammed, wouldn't "more . . . than" modify the verb, classifed as adverb or adjective?
(this is the first time I am weighing in. Hopefully all will be kind in telling me why I'm wrong.)
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question--more...than
Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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Julie,
Welcome to the list. I have offered plenty of wrong explanations over the years and have come to trust the process.
I think “more” is a comparative adjective that requires something to compare to. A pared down form of the sentence might be “A man has more nerve control
than a woman.” He could have “less nerve control than a woman” or “as much nerve control as a woman.” Sometimes what you are comparing something to is clear from context; other times, it has to be made explicit. “He always wanted more money” means “more money
than he already has.”
Other adjectives act the same way in requiring complements to complete them. “I am happier than a clam.” “Than a clam” is sometimes called an adjective
complement.
I think it functions adjectivally and does so as a complex construction.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of JULIE ZAVESKY
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 7:19 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
Thinking in terms of how that sentence would be diagrammed, wouldn't "more . . . than" modify the verb, classifed as adverb or adjective?
(this is the first time I am weighing in. Hopefully all will be kind in telling me why I'm wrong.)
How would you analyze
more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce
more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to
than?
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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http://ateg.org/
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:51:56 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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This discussion leads me to wonder about the parsing of sentences like this:
He spent a dollar more than she did.
1. Is "a dollar" the direct object of the verb "spent?
2. Or is "a dollar" a quantifying adverbial modifying "more"?
The following supply evidence for the second analysis:
He spent little.
He spent more than she did.
He spent slightly more than she did.
He spent a lot more than she did.
He spent a dollar more than she did.
If so, is "spent" intransitive here, with "a dollar more than she did" an
adverbial, or is "spent" transitive, with "more" as its object?
And how about Scott's sentence ("...he has that ounce more of nerve control
than a woman has")? Is "more (of) nerve control" the object of "has," with
"that ounce" being a quantifying adverbial? Some related sentences:
She has more control than he has.
She has more.
She has a little more than he has.
She has an ounce more than he has.
Any thoughts?
Dick
------------------------------
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [
> [log in to unmask]] on behalf of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:43 PM
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* grammar question--more...than
>
> Dear List,
>
>
>
> How would you analyze *more* in the following sentence:
>
>
>
> And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce *more** *of
> nerve control than a woman has.
>
>
>
> How would you explain its relationship to *than? *
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Scott Woods
>
>
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This discussion leads me to wonder about the parsing of sentences like this:
He spent a dollar more than she did.
1. Is "a dollar" the direct object of the verb "spent?
2. Or is "a dollar" a quantifying adverbial modifying "more"?
The following supply evidence for the second analysis:
He spent little.
He spent more than she did.
He spent slightly more than she did.
He spent a lot more than she did.
He spent a dollar more than she did.
If so, is "spent" intransitive here, with "a dollar more than she did" an adverbial, or is "spent" transitive, with "more" as its object?
And how about Scott's sentence ("...he has that ounce
more of nerve control than a woman has")? Is "more (of) nerve control" the object of "has," with "that ounce" being a quantifying adverbial? Some related sentences:
She has more control than he has.
She has more.
She has a little more than he has.
She has an ounce more than he has.
Any thoughts?
Dick
How would you analyze
more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce
more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to
than?
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--20cf307f37b4b36a6e04c867dcb8--
========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:40:11 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Dick,
I was wondering some of the same things.
These structures are also often elliptical. "He spent more money than Sally spent" can become "he spent more than Sally" with "money" and "spent" as understood. In that sense, "more" could be working somewhat like a fused head. ("I was the first [child of my parents] to go to college." "Of all our problems, this is the worst." "You gave what you needed to last week; this is more."
It seems to me clearly that "ounce" and "dollar" are helping to quantify how much more. I would say that "a dollar more than she did" is the direct object, but "more" is acting like a fused head. It can only do so effectively if "money" is understood.
If you say "he sleeps more every day," then "more" would be adverbial.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
This discussion leads me to wonder about the parsing of sentences like this:
He spent a dollar more than she did.
1. Is "a dollar" the direct object of the verb "spent?
2. Or is "a dollar" a quantifying adverbial modifying "more"?
The following supply evidence for the second analysis:
He spent little.
He spent more than she did.
He spent slightly more than she did.
He spent a lot more than she did.
He spent a dollar more than she did.
If so, is "spent" intransitive here, with "a dollar more than she did" an adverbial, or is "spent" transitive, with "more" as its object?
And how about Scott's sentence ("...he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has")? Is "more (of) nerve control" the object of "has," with "that ounce" being a quantifying adverbial? Some related sentences:
She has more control than he has.
She has more.
She has a little more than he has.
She has an ounce more than he has.
Any thoughts?
Dick
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Scott Woods [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:43 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: grammar question--more...than
Dear List,
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
Thanks,
Scott Woods
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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Dick,
I was wondering some of the same things.
These structures are also often elliptical. “He spent more money than Sally spent” can become “he spent more than Sally” with “money” and “spent” as understood.
In that sense, “more” could be working somewhat like a fused head. (“I was the first [child of my parents] to go to college.” “Of all our problems, this is the worst.” “You gave what you needed to last week; this is more.”
It seems to me clearly that “ounce” and “dollar” are helping to quantify how much more. I would say that “a dollar more than she did” is the direct object,
but “more” is acting like a fused head. It can only do so effectively if “money” is understood.
If you say “he sleeps more every day,” then “more” would be adverbial.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Dick Veit
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:52 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
This discussion leads me to wonder about the parsing of sentences like this:
He spent a dollar more than she did.
1. Is "a dollar" the direct object of the verb "spent?
2. Or is "a dollar" a quantifying adverbial modifying "more"?
The following supply evidence for the second analysis:
He spent little.
He spent more than she did.
He spent slightly more than she did.
He spent a lot more than she did.
He spent a dollar more than she did.
If so, is "spent" intransitive here, with "a dollar more than she did" an adverbial, or is "spent" transitive, with "more" as its object?
And how about Scott's sentence ("...he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has")? Is "more (of) nerve control" the object of "has," with "that ounce" being a quantifying adverbial? Some related sentences:
She has more control than he has.
She has more.
She has a little more than he has.
She has an ounce more than he has.
Any thoughts?
Dick
How would you analyze more in the following sentence:
And while a man may feel like [screaming], he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has.
How would you explain its relationship to than?
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:41:13 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: grammar question--more...than
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