> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_000_D086176A9416CE49B91787F51D788BEA3649B416EXCHMBX4pctedu_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:12:06 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_dde0ea24-b80d-40f5-b6d5-24446c0736cb_
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As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To:
[log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most
of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for
introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think
there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though
I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate
knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade
8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched
away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be
any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere
that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the
English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious
metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without
some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language
learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a
couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at
http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_dde0ea24-b80d-40f5-b6d5-24446c0736cb_--
========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 18:33:50 +0000
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Nicely put!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
________________________________
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the "standards" (which are really objectives and not standards." For example, what does "by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences" mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest, it is a totally useless objective. Most of my college students cannot identify "is," "are," "was," and "were" as verbs.
Ed
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Chorazy
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, Garner's Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte's Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
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--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
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Nicely put!
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 2:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA document that can be used to pass
blame on to others (i.e., teachers). Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 17:37:59 +0000
From: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
To: [log in to unmask]
John,
My questions include how teachers are expected to meet the “standards” (which are really objectives and not standards.” For example, what does “by
grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences”
mean? It probably does not mean that students should be able to identify these constructions in what they read and write. Therefore, I would suggest,
it is a totally useless objective. Most of my college students cannot identify “is,” “are,” “was,” and “were” as verbs.
Ed
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1.
Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions,
but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another
discussion in itself...).
a.
Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in
a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage,
Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3.
Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This
is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a.
Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students
are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex
issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and
use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to
Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences
and
Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though
I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll
have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests
specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file
something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students
simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but
that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically
boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something
that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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English II and III, Academic and Honors
Pequannock Township High School
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Jan Kammert <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Geoff,
This seems especially true to me because in my state (and I've heard in
other states also) 25% of a teacher's evaluation will be based on how
well her students did on the end of year test.
But schools will no longer have to make Annual Yearly Progress. The
school as a whole will get no consequence, but the teacher will.
Jan
Quoting Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>:
As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives"Â with
any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA
document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers).
Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting
of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be
wise and sound because we did it."
Geoff Layton
Â
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:30:56 -0500
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]>
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Who can argue against "accountability"? I wonder what the response of the teachers' unions will be?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Geoff,
> This seems especially true to me because in my state (and I've heard in
> other states also) 25% of a teacher's evaluation will be based on how
> well her students did on the end of year test.
>
> But schools will no longer have to make Annual Yearly Progress. The
> school as a whole will get no consequence, but the teacher will.
> Jan
>
>
> Quoting Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>:
> As should be evident, these are not "standards" or "objectives" with
> any other pedagogical or educational relevance but only part of a CYA
> document that can be used to pass blame on to others (i.e., teachers).
> Politicians and administrators can say, "Well, we did the heavy lifting
> of putting together this wise, sound document, which we know to be
> wise and sound because we did it."
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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--_ee6e542d-845c-440c-b95f-c4637e69bcd0_
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Who can argue against "accountability"? I wonder what the response of the teachers' unions will be?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:16:21 -0400
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common CoTo join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:09:06 -0700
Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
<[log in to unmask]>
Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
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From: Scott Carledge <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
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"Determine if this or that" gives you a choice. "Determine whether" would
be more appropriate if one has students who are neither second-language
learners nor linguistically impaired.
Scott Catledge
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:02 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74)
There are 8 messages totalling 1774 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Quick Common Core question (8)
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Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Bill,
Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
Ed V.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Quick Common Core question
Hi all --
I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
Sincerely,
Bill Spruiell
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:29:58 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
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Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
Sincerely,
Bill S.
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:45:18 -0400
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical
annotations):
1. *Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and
usage when writing or speaking* (I'd agree there is no specific demand here
for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room
for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the
requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of
the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe
that's another discussion in itself...).
a. *Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can
change over time, and is sometimes contested* (How does one apply this
understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive
conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher
here, necessarily).
b.* Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references
(e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern
American Usage) as needed* (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a
complex jargon).
3. *Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in
different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to
comprehend more fully when reading or listening* (This is clearly
metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in
specific terms.).
a. *Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful
Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the
study of complex texts when reading* (When students are asked to apply or
demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to
determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte
or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information
to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to
use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and
prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students
should be able to *Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles,
infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences* and *Use
knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading,
or listening*. None of that is done without metacognition and application
of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant
is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is
questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly;
the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the
Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is
that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded
within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding
of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC
standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I
can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I
remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs,
but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple
sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is
another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely
because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of
a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of
making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the
Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous
as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply
"producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at
grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice"
(I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native
English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use
actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll
get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil
down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or
have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if
your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of
those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies
if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't
taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in
the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:49:21 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers -
So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)?
Geoff Layton
> Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000
> From:
[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> To:
[log in to unmask]>
> Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey:
>
> Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill S.
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM
> To: ATEG English Grammar <
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
>
> Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion?
>
> Geoff Layton
>
> > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000
> > From:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> >
> > Bill,
> > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> > Ed V.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> > To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Quick Common Core question
> >
> > Hi all --
> >
> > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
> >
> > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Bill Spruiell
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> >
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400
From: "MARLOW, DAVID" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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--_000_994B1DDEC62548B490B02B9CFE9D2AF6uscupstateedu_--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 22:19:46 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
________________________________
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
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At one point, I read many sets of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of
as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech.
Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language
is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on
the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little
metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is
nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic
way.
I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning
is built through syntactic choice.
Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most
of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts.
Craig
A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations):
1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it
and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...).
a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty
of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily).
b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon).
3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree
with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.).
a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's
going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues).
To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to
Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and
Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from
using such terms because their practicality is questioned.
I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about"
grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades.
Sincerely,
John
>
> Bill,
> Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should
be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses.
> Ed V.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C
> Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM
> Subject: Quick Common Core question
>
> Hi all --
>
> I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar
sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic
knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language
impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have
language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge."
>
> Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years,
and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Bill Spruiell
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
--
John Chorazy
English II and III, Academic and Honors
Advisor, Panther Press
Pequannock Township High School
973.616.6000
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:26:20 -0500
From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question