Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 16:09:06 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PERJViBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6VmVyZGFuYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsgZm9udC1zaXplOjEw cHQ7Ij48RElWPlRoZSA8U1RST05HPjxFTT5PUjwvRU0+PC9TVFJPTkc+IGlzIGxvZ2ljYWxseSBp bmNsdXNpdmUgYW5kIHRoZSBtb3JlIGNsZWFyIGNvbm5lY3RpdmUgd291bGQgYmUgPFNUUk9ORz48 RU0+QU5EPC9FTT48L1NUUk9ORz4uJm5ic3A7IDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj5JdCBpcyBpbnRlcmVzdGlu ZyBpbiB0aGUgY3VycmVudCBwb2xpdGljYWwgZGViYXRlIGhvdyB0aGUgRGVtb2NyYXRzIGFyZSBx dWljayB0byBpbnRlcnByZXQgdGhlIDxFTT48U1RST05HPk9SPC9TVFJPTkc+PC9FTT4gaW4gdGhl 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19:11:06 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Carledge <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74) In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Determine if this or that" gives you a choice. "Determine whether" would be more appropriate if one has students who are neither second-language learners nor linguistically impaired. Scott Catledge -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of ATEG automatic digest system Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 12:02 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: ATEG Digest - 18 Aug 2012 to 20 Aug 2012 (#2012-74) There are 8 messages totalling 1774 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Quick Common Core question (8) To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000 From: Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question Bill, Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. Ed V. -----Original Message----- From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Quick Common Core question Hi all -- I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. Sincerely, Bill Spruiell To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:29:58 -0500 From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question --_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion? Geoff Layton > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Bill, > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > Ed V. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > Hi all -- > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_b7dc697e-298a-419a-a6f2-7d6da7e2b70b_-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000 From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey: Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down. Sincerely, Bill S. From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion? Geoff Layton > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Bill, > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > Ed V. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > Hi all -- > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:45:18 -0400 From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question --14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations): 1. *Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking* (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...). a. *Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested* (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily). b.* Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed* (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon). 3. *Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening* (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.). a. *Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading* (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues). To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to *Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences* and *Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening*. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned. I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades. Sincerely, John On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Bill, > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > Ed V. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > Hi all -- > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- John Chorazy English II and III, Academic and Honors Advisor, Panther Press Pequannock Township High School 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --14dae93993cfe38dce04c7b7bfaf-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:49:21 -0500 From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question --_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)? Geoff Layton > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey: > > Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down. > > Sincerely, > > Bill S. > > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM > To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > > Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion? > > Geoff Layton > > > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000 > > From: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > > Ed V. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Bill Spruiell > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_a12bdece-5e98-4816-aa49-a426b42e217d_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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of state standards and found some consistent patterns that the common core standards largely extend. For the most part, grammar is thought of as a behavior. So it's not surprising that the focus would be on "demonstrating mastery" of standard English or punctuation, those elements that make writing most obviously different from everyday speech. Since the sixties, there has been a concerted resistance to knowledge about language, the major argument being that "formal grammar taught in isolation" doesn't improve writing. There is also a philosophical consensus, for better or worse, that language is acquired naturally and that we don't need to teach a native speaker the grammar of their own language in order for that to happen. The attention is and has been on the differences between the features of that spoken language and standard English and on the differences between the demands of language as speech and language as represented in written form. The consensus for some time has been that this transition can be accomplished through response to actual writing and should be accomplished with as little metalanguage as possible. The conversation has largely been around what it is "necessary" to know, with soft explanations acceptable. If we respond to individual needs of classes or students and have behavior (rather than knowledge) as a goal, then there is nothing to build on year after year. We can test students on whether they can recognize "error," but can't test them on knowledge about language precisely because that knowledge has never been valued and has never been built in any kind of serious or systematic way. I'm curious about what it means to vary syntax "for effect." Varied syntax is essential to clarity, coherence, emphasis, and so on. Once again, though, it's couched in behavioral terms. students aren't being asked to recognize the ways in which meaning is built through syntactic choice. Recognition of register differences are also more social (and superficial). Even dismissing all the elements of nonstandard language, language differs enormously for different kinds of text, most particularly within the technical disciplines. Most of the state standards I have looked at value "literary elements," but seem oblivious to the complex demands of technical and academic texts. Craig ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 3:45 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question A few Language Standards for 11-12 grades (with my parenthetical annotations): 1. Demonstrate command of the conventions of standard English grammar and usage when writing or speaking (I'd agree there is no specific demand here for a language set that describes the conventions, but there is broad room for introducing it and for students to employ it in order to fulfill the requirements of an ELA course. The Standards aren't the end or the all of the curriculum, they're a framework for "college readiness"... though maybe that's another discussion in itself...). a. Apply the understanding that usage is a matter of convention, can change over time, and is sometimes contested (How does one apply this understanding without a common language set to engage in a productive conversation? I think there's plenty of room for the classroom teacher here, necessarily). b. Resolve issues of complex or contested usage, consulting references (e.g.Merriam- Webster’s Dictionary of English Usage, Garner’s Modern American Usage) as needed (Same as above, I'd say. Complex issues demand a complex jargon). 3. Apply knowledge of language to understand how language functions in different contexts, to make effective choices for meaning or style, and to comprehend more fully when reading or listening (This is clearly metaknowledge, though I still agree with Ed that nothing is demanded in specific terms.). a. Vary syntax for effect, consulting references (e.g., Tufte’s Artful Sentences) for guidance as needed; apply an understanding of syntax to the study of complex texts when reading (When students are asked to apply or demonstrate knowledge, it's going to be up to the classroom teacher to determine how that's satisfied. But the suggestion of a guiding text (Tufte or any other) is a nod toward the need for complex and expert information to resolve complex issues). To go back a bit, the Standards state that 5th graders should be able to use correlative conjunctions, explain the functions of conjunctions and prepositions, and form and use various verb tenses; by grade 8, students should be able to Explain the function of verbals (gerunds, participles, infinitives) in general and their function in particular sentences and Use knowledge of language and its conventions when writing, speaking, reading, or listening. None of that is done without metacognition and application of at least a few terms regarding grammar - though I'm aware that the slant is pitched away from using such terms because their practicality is questioned. I think it will be interesting to see what's on the state tests, frankly; the Consortia who are determining the high stakes assessments for the Standards are the ones who'll have the final interpretation. My sense is that there won't be any questions "about" grammar in sight... but embedded within the questions and readings will be a need for a rich understanding of the complexities of language, especially by 11-12th grades. Sincerely, John On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:26 PM, Ed Vavra <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > Bill, > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > Ed V. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > Hi all -- > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > Sincerely, > > Bill Spruiell > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- John Chorazy English II and III, Academic and Honors Advisor, Panther Press Pequannock Township High School 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6436774CF4BY2PRD0411MB415_-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:26:20 -0500 From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question --_1f677562-dcaa-4595-aa16-19b08a9f5b3b_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David - You're in luck! How does the end of the fall semester look to you - say mid-December? Geoff Layton Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 18:11:15 -0400 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question To: [log in to unmask] I might be willing... When do you need it? < If you are out there saying, "oh, why didn't I speak sooner?!?", speak now... I'm interested in this, but have other irons in the fire as well, so I'd happily step aside for another volunteer... > Best, D < Written using speech recognition software &/or an iPad keyboard by my fat fingers... Please forgive spelling and punctuation errors > On Aug 20, 2012, at 5:50 PM, "Geoffrey Layton" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Herb, Ed, Bill and all you other ATEGers - So who's going to step up to the plate to take a swing at that elusive curve ball - an essay for an academic journal (about 3,500 words)? Geoff Layton > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:43:34 +0000 > From: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > To: [log in to unmask] > > Herb, Ed, and Geoffrey: > > Thanks for the input — I was suspecting that many of the grammar-related standards were in roughly the same position as that of Schroedinger's cat, and this seems to be the case. I'd think that a journal piece would be useful, especially if it has any chance at all of spurring anyone in the CC initiative to make a statement one way or another. Of course, the indeterminacy itself may be some of the sugar helping the medicine go down. > > Sincerely, > > Bill S. > > From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Date: Monday, August 20, 2012 12:29 PM > To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > > Can we get an article for the ATEG Journal out of this discussion? > > Geoff Layton > > > Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:26:34 +0000 > > From: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: Quick Common Core question > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > > Bill, > > Thanks for asking this question. In addition to looking at the CC standards, I've looked at those of a few states, including sample exams. I can find nothing that suggests specific metalinguistic knowledge. I remember seeing somewhere that students should be able to identify verbs, but that statement itself is vague. Identifying finite verbs in simple sentences is relatively easy, but identifying verbs in their own writing is another question. I'm hoping that you get more responses. > > Ed V. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Spruiell, William C > > Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 4:01 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Quick Common Core question > > > > Hi all -- > > > > I'm lazily attempting to draw on ATEG's collective experience, largely because I've discovered that educational bureaucracies inevitably think of a different name to file something under than I do. I'm in the process of making sure the English-ed grammar sections I'm about to teach address the Common Core directly. The CC has a number of statements that are ambiguous as to whether what's being asked for has to do with students simply "producing a construction", or (instead) having conscious metalinguistic knowledge of it. As an example, at one point the CC says that students at grade eight should "form and use verbs in the active and passive voice" (I'd want "voices" there, but that's probably pushing things). Native English-speakers without some kind of language impairment will form and use actives and passives, of course -- just record them long enough and you'll get both. Read one way, a large set of these CC objectives basically boil down to, "determine if any of your students are second language learners or have language impairments"; read another, they're instead "determine if your students have specific metalinguistic knowledge." > > > > Is there anything approaching an official statement about which one of those readings is intended? If so, does anyone know where it is? Apologies if I'm asking something that's totally obvious. The course is one I haven't taught in a couple of years, and the switch to the CC in my state was in the early phases the last time around. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Bill Spruiell > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > > and select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_1f677562-dcaa-4595-aa16-19b08a9f5b3b_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable