Bruce,
I agree that the semantics and syntax don’t have to be the same. We can get similar meanings from different constructions. The analysis you offer is highly reasonable.
We can think of “forty miles above the earth” as having “miles” as head . I think that’s the traditional view. We could decide that “forty miles” tells us the extent of “aboveness” in “forty miles above.” Or we can say that “forty miles above” always includes an implied noun to go with “above”(above something that need not be stated because it is clear within the context) so that “miles” would again be the head. “Forty miles long” complicates it precisely because “long” is never a preposition, though it can be paraphrased with “in length.” In this case, “forty miles” seems to quantify “long”. I could live with that.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 9:59 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: adverb construction
Craig,
It doesn't feel quite right to me either. In my thinking, "forty miles in length" could serve in a sentence such as "The range is forty miles in length." You point out that this is synonymous with "The range is forty miles long." The temptation is to say that because the adjective phrase "in length" modifies the noun phrase "forty miles" that the adjective "long" has the same syntactic role. I don't think that the semantics and the syntax have to be the same. Can we not allow the interpretation of an adjective modification of a noun phrase to be identical to the interpretation of the modification of an adjective by an adverbial noun phrase (when the adjective specifies the dimension). There may also be further implications. Notice that "She is 5 years old" does not mean she is old, but it does mean that "She is five." Here the measure is also missing along with the dimension adjective. If we say, "She is five years in age," the modification seems a little redundant. Whereas the range of forty miles in length can contrast with five miles (long) in breadth (even 200 square miles in area, etc.), "five years" as predicate to a person is usually only of the person's age.
Bruce
--- [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: adverb construction
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2012 16:33:43 +0000
Bruce,
This is very helpful. I was trying to square an analysis of a phrase like “forty miles above the earth” where “miles” is usually the head with “forty miles away,” or “forty miles long,” where “away” and “long” seem to be the head and “forty miles” just quantifies extent (like ‘very long” or “a little long.”) . Would “forty miles in length” give us “miles’ as head, but “forty miles long” give us “long” in the same role? That doesn’t feel quite right to me.
Craig
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]]<mailto:[mailto:[log in to unmask]]> On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2012 9:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: adverb construction
Craig,
I have kept my eyes open over the years since I put a masters thesis together on the quantifier construction in 1974, but have not seen much progress made. And so I would be very interested in alternative analyses. You probably already saw my work on these expressions when I referred to them last week (www.bdespain.org/S&L/SE/SE-155.htm<http://www.bdespain.org/S&L/SE/SE-155.htm>). I understand them as having an adverb (or two) that are understood, but not explicitly expressed. Hence,
1) They hovered forty (many) miles (far) above the earth. etc.
With time the redundant version would be:
7) They came in twenty (many) minutes (long) after the speech. etc.
These general adverbs of extent for space and time, far and long, are some that are regularly omitted, but others with more content will remain:
1)' They hovered forty (many) miles high above the earth.
7)' They came in twenty (many) minutes late after the speech.
It may be noted that the phrase structure rule that characterizes this construction is recursive allowing the many also to anchor a head. The quantifier, viz. adverb, appears when the modifier to the quantifier phrase, viz. adverb phrase, is questioned.
7A) How many minutes (long) after the speech did they come in?
7B) How long after the speech did they come in?
The context of my description classifies ten different quantification expressions in three parts of phrase (pre-quantifier, quantifier, noun). The constructions for quantifiers seem to fall into seven different kinds of expression.
Bruce
--- [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: adverb construction
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 16:30:05 +0000
I have had trouble sending this message (new system?) so I apologize if you receive it more than once.
I am interested in ways to understand constructions like the following.
1) They hovered forty miles above the earth.
2) They hovered forty miles above.
3) The road was forty miles long.
4) They went forty miles past the exit sign.
5) They went forty miles past.
6) They went way past.
We can come up with similar patterns for time location.
7) We came in twenty minutes after the speech.
8) We came in twenty minutes after.
9) We came in twenty minutes late.
What are the standard views? Are there alternatives?
Craig
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/