Craig,
I started this discussion with this claim you made:
Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and
students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and
can’t produce those form/meaning relationships.
I had no idea what that means and asked for examples of sentence-meaning
relationships.
How does your last response relate to this claim:
“Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use
those conjunctions [*for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*, *or*, *yet*, and *so]*. To
the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of
students could not use those words effectively.”
What does that mean? We have NO idea what the quiz was and NO examples of
the "ineffective" sentences. Let's assume the teacher is right. What does
that mean for the claim that I questions?
Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and
students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and
can’t produce those form/meaning relationships.
Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri
On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> Bob,****
>
> I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use
> routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part
> of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher
> devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions.
> To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of
> students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from
> similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me,
> having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but
> I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were
> finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps
> overuse of “and” was one of the observations.****
>
> I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our
> inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work
> certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier
> point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in
> the earliest years of open admission. ****
>
> Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language
> is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures?
> If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take
> its approaches seriously. ****
>
> ** **
>
> Craig****
>
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM
>
> *To:* [log in to unmask]
> *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles****
>
> ** **
>
> It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us:****
>
> ** **
>
> Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers
> found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like
> "but" or "or." ****
>
> ** **
>
> That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I
> found:****
>
> ** **
>
> 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’
> sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids
> who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay
> writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link
> and expand on simple ideas—words like *for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*,*or*, *
> yet*, and *so*. ****
>
> ** **
>
> 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be
> unfamiliar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do
> not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn
> ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from
> simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—*but*, *because,*
> and *so*. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary
> the way their sentences begin. ****
>
> ** **
>
> One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples
> are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the
> writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers
> overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college
> students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate.
> ****
>
> ** **
>
> In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but,
> because and so. ****
>
> ** **
>
> (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can
> someone give us example of such an sentence?)****
>
> ** **
>
> I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot
> understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I
> may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write
> sentences with "but" or "or".****
>
> ** **
>
> Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri ****
>
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>
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