> Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:59:12 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
> I hope you meant that the 1830 quote was not an example of a prepositional verb. I interpret that use of "constituted" as an adjective and the "so ___ as" (+ comparative clause or infinitive phrase) occurs regularly as an adverbial modifier to many an adjective. You are right that it does not paraphrase to "to such an extent that" but here instead to "in such a way that."
> Bruce
>
> --- [log in to unmask] wrote:
>
> From: "Spruiell, William To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 10:13:58 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]> Subject: The Atlantic Writing Articles Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_d3982501-aea9-4008-93a6-d7bf95e05769_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_d3982501-aea9-4008-93a6-d7bf95e05769_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think these articles from The Atlantic and The Chronical of Higher Education are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en Geoff Layton To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_d3982501-aea9-4008-93a6-d7bf95e05769_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_d3982501-aea9-4008-93a6-d7bf95e05769_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:07:50 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445142F16CH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445142F16CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Geoff, The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it's getting much deserved attention. The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of sentences as "templates." Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can't read or write to the extent that they don't understand and can't produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that literacy is "taught, not caught." Letting students enjoy what they read and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic over-concern with "error." Students learn "moves" that are available in and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. And it seems to get results. I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the results. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The Atlantic Writing Articles I think these articles from The Atlantic and The Chronical of Higher Education are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en Geoff Layton To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445142F16CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445142F16CH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2012 23:25:16 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Bruce, That usage certainly does involve an adjectival participle! I had started scanning for "constitute as" sequences, saw they used to be a bit more common, started looking at fun examples, and association-chained myself right into a corner. I can read it as verbal, but only by ignoring the 'so' that is so very obstinately there. --- Bill Spruiell Sent from a mobile device On Oct 10, 2012, at 11:59 PM, "Bruce Despain" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I hope you meant that the 1830 quote was not an example of a prepositional verb. I interpret that use of "constituted" as an adjective and the "so ___ as" (+ comparative clause or infinitive phrase) occurs regularly as an adverbial modifier to many an adjective. You are right that it does not paraphrase to "to such an extent that" but here instead to "in such a way that." > Bruce > > --- [log in to unmask] wrote: > > From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes > Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:00:26 +0000 > > An additional possibility is that the writer has seen 'constitute' in sentences in which it is followed by an 'as' for additional reasons, and then came to the conclusion that the verb "wants" that particular preposition. From a students' perspective, it's very easy to believe that highly formal verbs demand particular prepositions — after all, a lot of them do. There are a few uses of that verb that do get a following "as": > > The committee was constituted as a means to provide input to the process. > The committee constitutes as great an impediment to getting work done as a middling case of the flu would. > > Apparently, "to constitute as" used to be slightly more frequent (based on a quick search of http://corpus2.byu.edu/coha/ ), particularly in the sense of "be the kind of _____ that": > > A modern critic remarks, that it was a great piece of folly in so wise a man, to allow himself to be so much affected by so slight a cause; but he did not recollect that if Racine had been so constituted as to support with indifference the attacks of critics and the displeasure of Louis XIV, he could not possibly have written [h]is exquisite tragedies. (from "Tone of British Criticism," The American Review, July 1830, pp. 27-66). > > > --- Bill Spruiell > > > From: John Dews <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Date: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 12:11 PM > To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> > Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes > > My initial impression is that the writer simply may not have a strong grasp on the meaning of "to constitute." He or she may have semantically mixed the traditional meaning of "to constitute" with a more complex verb such as "to pass off" + a PP beginning with "as." Perhaps the intended meaning was something more akin to "Reading a lot illuminates what passes itself off as good and bad writing..." It's just a theory, but my students often produce these types of unintended semantic mash-ups. I'm sure there are a number of other possible explanations though. > > John > > On Wed, Oct 10, 2012 at 9:16 AM, Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Why would one write "what constitutes as" as opposed to simpler and in my opinion the correct "constitutes"? > "Constitutes" is a transitive verb not an intransitive verb. Example sentence where the incorrect use was found follows: "Reading a lot illuminates what constitutes as good and bad writing. . . ." Why not Reading a lot illuminates what constitutes good and bad writing." > > I'd really appreciate a direct answer responding to "constitutes as" vs. "constitutes" > for use in class today. > > Thank you. > > Martha Galphin > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:54:45 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 12:05:20 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Martha Galphin <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_aae3a425-5897-405d-9a2a-4e8955af78f6_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_aae3a425-5897-405d-9a2a-4e8955af78f6_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks, Bruce. It is clear to me, since no one has responded otherwise, that "constitutes good and bad writing'' is preferable to "constitutes as good and bad writing." For my ESL adult students learning vocabulary, syntax, and grammar in a beginning class, I will explain away the original writer's "constitutes as" as a typo! Martha Galphin Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2012 05:54:45 -0700 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: constitutes as or constitutes To: [log in to unmask] What I would write is probably something like: 3. What illuminates our judgement of what constitutes good and bad writing is reading a lot. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_aae3a425-5897-405d-9a2a-4e8955af78f6_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_aae3a425-5897-405d-9a2a-4e8955af78f6_-- ========================================================================Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 15:27:42 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryô6d04182568ea13f504cbf6a25c --f46d04182568ea13f504cbf6a25c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colleagues, I am puzzled by the following: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to understand the claim. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Geoff,**** > > The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it’s getting much > deserved attention.**** > > The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of > sentences as “templates.” Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain > kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students > can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t > produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that > literacy is “taught, not caught.” Letting students enjoy what they read > and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has > not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for > nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love > reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this > is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic > over-concern with “error.” Students learn “moves” that are available in > and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. > And it seems to get results.**** > > I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the > results. **** > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Geoffrey Layton > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > I think these articles from *The Atlantic *and *The Chronical of Higher > Education *are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. **** > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true > **** > > http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education**** > > ** ** > > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en > **** > > **** > > Geoff Layton**** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --f46d04182568ea13f504cbf6a25c Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colleagues,

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --f46d04182568ea13f504cbf6a25c-- ========================================================================Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2012 23:22:07 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: "Logical Punctuation"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary¼aec54ee8ccf8946604cbfc6cda --bcaec54ee8ccf8946604cbfc6cda Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Nothing new, but I'm curious about any thoughts or reactions this might bring up... thanks... http://www.slate.com/articles/life/the_good_word/2011/05/the_rise_of_logical_punctuation.html John -- John Chorazy English II and III, Academic and Honors Advisor, Panther Press Pequannock Township High School 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --bcaec54ee8ccf8946604cbfc6cda Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --bcaec54ee8ccf8946604cbfc6cda-- ========================================================================Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 16:06:52 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514348ACH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514348ACH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I think the position would be much clearer if you read the article. They claim that many 14 or 15 year old students were unable to write sentences using, for example, words like "although." They came up with courses in "analytical writing" that include attempts to remedy that. For a similar approach at the college level, see "They Say/ I Say: The moves that Matter in Academic Writing" (Graf and Birkenstein), which offers a number of sentence level "templates" as part of its program. Stanley Fish also advocates analyzing and imitating sentences. "Practice in the analyzing and imitating of sentences is also practice in the reading of sentences" ( Fish, How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One, p.9). The Atlantic article focuses on a failing school that was able to improve remarkably largely-as they see it-because of the implementation of a writing curriculum that pays explicit attention to sentences as ways to generate certain kinds of meaning. Graduation rates have gone from 63 percent to 80, passing rates on Regents exams (this is a New York requirement) have improved dramatically in both English and history (where essays are involved), more students are taking advanced classes that carry college credit, and so on. They may be wrong for doing what they are doing, but it seems to be working. Without this turnaround, the school would have been shut down. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:28 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Colleagues, I am puzzled by the following: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can't read or write to the extent that they don't understand and can't produce those form/meaning relationships. I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to understand the claim. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it's getting much deserved attention. The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of sentences as "templates." Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can't read or write to the extent that they don't understand and can't produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that literacy is "taught, not caught." Letting students enjoy what they read and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic over-concern with "error." Students learn "moves" that are available in and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. And it seems to get results. I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the results. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The Atlantic Writing Articles I think these articles from The Atlantic and The Chronical of Higher Education are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en Geoff Layton To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514348ACH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514348ACH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 14:02:21 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryô6d043c7dd65bc5d204cc1dad6e --f46d043c7dd65bc5d204cc1dad6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, I took seriously what you wrote. Now you tell me that students have difficulty with although. That has been my experience, too. Let's return to the sentence that prompted my original comment: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. What kinds of meanings are only possible with "although"? Is it not the case that such a meaning can be made with the use of but or however? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Bob,**** > > I think the position would be much clearer if you read the article. > They claim that many 14 or 15 year old students were unable to write > sentences using, for example, words like “although.” They came up with > courses in “analytical writing” that include attempts to remedy that. For a > similar approach at the college level, see “They Say/ I Say: The moves that > Matter in Academic Writing” (Graf and Birkenstein), which offers a number > of sentence level “templates” as part of its program. Stanley Fish also > advocates analyzing and imitating sentences. “Practice in the analyzing and > imitating of sentences is also practice in the reading of sentences” ( > Fish, *How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One*, p.9). The Atlantic > article focuses on a failing school that was able to improve remarkably > largely—as they see it—because of the implementation of a writing > curriculum that pays explicit attention to sentences as ways to generate > certain kinds of meaning. Graduation rates have gone from 63 percent to > 80, passing rates on Regents exams (this is a New York requirement) have > improved dramatically in both English and history (where essays are > involved), more students are taking advanced classes that carry college > credit, and so on. **** > > They may be wrong for doing what they are doing, but it seems to be > working. Without this turnaround, the school would have been shut down.*** > * > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:28 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > Colleagues,**** > > ** ** > > I am puzzled by the following:**** > > ** ** > > Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and > students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and > can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. **** > > ** ** > > I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being > referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of > sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: > If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that > language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would > love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships > prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to > understand the claim. **** > > ** ** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri**** > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:**** > > Geoff,**** > > The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it’s getting much > deserved attention.**** > > The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of > sentences as “templates.” Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain > kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students > can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t > produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that > literacy is “taught, not caught.” Letting students enjoy what they read > and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has > not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for > nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love > reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this > is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic > over-concern with “error.” Students learn “moves” that are available in > and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. > And it seems to get results.**** > > I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the > results. **** > > **** > > Craig**** > > **** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Geoffrey Layton > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > **** > > I think these articles from *The Atlantic *and *The Chronical of Higher > Education *are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. **** > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true > **** > > http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education**** > > **** > > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en > **** > > **** > > Geoff Layton**** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > ** ** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --f46d043c7dd65bc5d204cc1dad6e Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, 

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --f46d043c7dd65bc5d204cc1dad6e-- ========================================================================Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 21:18:17 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundaryè9a8fb1ff00d51d3704cc22edaa --e89a8fb1ff00d51d3704cc22edaa Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig - I just used Fish's "doer-doing-done to" scaffold today to help students construct sentences filled with relationships (I have students write the basic form and hand off to others who then recast the sentence). I then asked them to list as many "grammar" terms they could come up with to label what they did (adverbials, appositives, etc... this was definitely the harder part for most, but worth the discussion). See below - not all perfect, but the most purposeful sentences some of my students wrote all year. *William went to the game.* On Wednesday, June 12, William, my older cousin, went to the Yankee game with his best friend Joe and caught a foul ball during the ninth inning. *Alex paid for his lunch.* Yesterday, Alex paid for his lunch with his mom’s 5 dollar bill and got $2 in change, so he also bought a snack. *The boy screamed.* During his nightly walk in a small desolate woody town, the boy heard footsteps behind him and turned around, the boy screamed before noticing it was just his old dad telling him to come inside so he could get ready to go to sleep. *Bob shot the puck.* When my friends and I went to the championship hockey tournament in Quebec, Canada, Bob, my good friend Gianna’s boyfriend, shot the puck so hard that it flew into the stadium’s bleachers, knocking out Jeremy Smith’s two front teeth, thus forcing the arena to call 911 where an ambulance quickly arrived and carried him off on a stretcher to the nearest hospital. - John On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Bob,**** > > I think the position would be much clearer if you read the article. > They claim that many 14 or 15 year old students were unable to write > sentences using, for example, words like “although.” They came up with > courses in “analytical writing” that include attempts to remedy that. For a > similar approach at the college level, see “They Say/ I Say: The moves that > Matter in Academic Writing” (Graf and Birkenstein), which offers a number > of sentence level “templates” as part of its program. Stanley Fish also > advocates analyzing and imitating sentences. “Practice in the analyzing and > imitating of sentences is also practice in the reading of sentences” ( > Fish, *How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One*, p.9). The Atlantic > article focuses on a failing school that was able to improve remarkably > largely—as they see it—because of the implementation of a writing > curriculum that pays explicit attention to sentences as ways to generate > certain kinds of meaning. Graduation rates have gone from 63 percent to > 80, passing rates on Regents exams (this is a New York requirement) have > improved dramatically in both English and history (where essays are > involved), more students are taking advanced classes that carry college > credit, and so on. **** > > They may be wrong for doing what they are doing, but it seems to be > working. Without this turnaround, the school would have been shut down.*** > * > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:28 PM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > Colleagues,**** > > ** ** > > I am puzzled by the following:**** > > ** ** > > Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and > students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and > can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. **** > > ** ** > > I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being > referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of > sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: > If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that > language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would > love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships > prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to > understand the claim. **** > > ** ** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri**** > > On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:**** > > Geoff,**** > > The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it’s getting much > deserved attention.**** > > The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of > sentences as “templates.” Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain > kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students > can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t > produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that > literacy is “taught, not caught.” Letting students enjoy what they read > and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has > not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for > nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love > reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this > is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic > over-concern with “error.” Students learn “moves” that are available in > and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. > And it seems to get results.**** > > I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the > results. **** > > **** > > Craig**** > > **** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Geoffrey Layton > *Sent:* Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > **** > > I think these articles from *The Atlantic *and *The Chronical of Higher > Education *are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. **** > > > http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true > **** > > http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education**** > > **** > > > http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en > **** > > **** > > Geoff Layton**** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > ** ** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > -- John Chorazy English II and III, Academic and Honors Advisor, Panther Press Pequannock Township High School 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --e89a8fb1ff00d51d3704cc22edaa Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

--

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --e89a8fb1ff00d51d3704cc22edaa-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 02:11:26 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514357ACH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514357ACH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." They Say/I Say often lists a number of terms that can be used for similar purposes. But when you practice using the terms, it turns out that they are not at all interchangeable. "Although" subordinates what follows it, whereas "however" and "but" do not. You can use "however" in various sentence slots. "But" often signals a change in direction between much larger stretches of text. These are, of course, classified as subordinating conjunction, conjunctive adverb, and coordinating conjunction because of the ways they act. If students are to use them as resources, it helps to reflect on the ways they differ from each other. Craig ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Robert Yates [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 3:02 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I took seriously what you wrote. Now you tell me that students have difficulty with although. That has been my experience, too. Let's return to the sentence that prompted my original comment: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. What kinds of meanings are only possible with "although"? Is it not the case that such a meaning can be made with the use of but or however? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:06 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I think the position would be much clearer if you read the article. They claim that many 14 or 15 year old students were unable to write sentences using, for example, words like “although.” They came up with courses in “analytical writing” that include attempts to remedy that. For a similar approach at the college level, see “They Say/ I Say: The moves that Matter in Academic Writing” (Graf and Birkenstein), which offers a number of sentence level “templates” as part of its program. Stanley Fish also advocates analyzing and imitating sentences. “Practice in the analyzing and imitating of sentences is also practice in the reading of sentences” ( Fish, How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One, p.9). The Atlantic article focuses on a failing school that was able to improve remarkably largely—as they see it—because of the implementation of a writing curriculum that pays explicit attention to sentences as ways to generate certain kinds of meaning. Graduation rates have gone from 63 percent to 80, passing rates on Regents exams (this is a New York requirement) have improved dramatically in both English and history (where essays are involved), more students are taking advanced classes that carry college credit, and so on. They may be wrong for doing what they are doing, but it seems to be working. Without this turnaround, the school would have been shut down. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:28 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Colleagues, I am puzzled by the following: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to understand the claim. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it’s getting much deserved attention. The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of sentences as “templates.” Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that literacy is “taught, not caught.” Letting students enjoy what they read and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic over-concern with “error.” Students learn “moves” that are available in and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. And it seems to get results. I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the results. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The Atlantic Writing Articles I think these articles from The Atlantic and The Chronical of Higher Education are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en Geoff Layton To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514357ACH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514357ACH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 02:26:12 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514358BCH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514358BCH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John, My guess, just from the playfulness of the sentences, is that they had a great deal of fun doing this. I like to ask students to find sentences they like and then imitate them, as Fish suggests, in part because they have so much fun doing it and then arguing about whether or not the imitating sentence actually fits the mold. They also pretty much unanimously tell me they find it useful. I like having attention on how grammar works when grammar is working well. During the conversation, you can sometimes weave in some sophisticated terminology. Craig ________________________________ From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of John Chorazy [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, October 15, 2012 9:18 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig - I just used Fish's "doer-doing-done to" scaffold today to help students construct sentences filled with relationships (I have students write the basic form and hand off to others who then recast the sentence). I then asked them to list as many "grammar" terms they could come up with to label what they did (adverbials, appositives, etc... this was definitely the harder part for most, but worth the discussion). See below - not all perfect, but the most purposeful sentences some of my students wrote all year. William went to the game. On Wednesday, June 12, William, my older cousin, went to the Yankee game with his best friend Joe and caught a foul ball during the ninth inning. Alex paid for his lunch. Yesterday, Alex paid for his lunch with his mom’s 5 dollar bill and got $2 in change, so he also bought a snack. The boy screamed. During his nightly walk in a small desolate woody town, the boy heard footsteps behind him and turned around, the boy screamed before noticing it was just his old dad telling him to come inside so he could get ready to go to sleep. Bob shot the puck. When my friends and I went to the championship hockey tournament in Quebec, Canada, Bob, my good friend Gianna’s boyfriend, shot the puck so hard that it flew into the stadium’s bleachers, knocking out Jeremy Smith’s two front teeth, thus forcing the arena to call 911 where an ambulance quickly arrived and carried him off on a stretcher to the nearest hospital. - John On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 12:06 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I think the position would be much clearer if you read the article. They claim that many 14 or 15 year old students were unable to write sentences using, for example, words like “although.” They came up with courses in “analytical writing” that include attempts to remedy that. For a similar approach at the college level, see “They Say/ I Say: The moves that Matter in Academic Writing” (Graf and Birkenstein), which offers a number of sentence level “templates” as part of its program. Stanley Fish also advocates analyzing and imitating sentences. “Practice in the analyzing and imitating of sentences is also practice in the reading of sentences” ( Fish, How to Write a Sentence: And How to Read One, p.9). The Atlantic article focuses on a failing school that was able to improve remarkably largely—as they see it—because of the implementation of a writing curriculum that pays explicit attention to sentences as ways to generate certain kinds of meaning. Graduation rates have gone from 63 percent to 80, passing rates on Regents exams (this is a New York requirement) have improved dramatically in both English and history (where essays are involved), more students are taking advanced classes that carry college credit, and so on. They may be wrong for doing what they are doing, but it seems to be working. Without this turnaround, the school would have been shut down. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2012 4:28 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Colleagues, I am puzzled by the following: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. I have no idea what this means. What are the kinds of sentences being referenced and what are the kinds of meanings those particular types of sentences make possible? This seems to me to be a very, very strong claim: If a language user can't produce a particular kind of sentence, then that language user is unable to formulate certain kinds of meanings. I would love to have some examples. What kind of sentence-meaning relationships prevent students from reading and writing? Examples, again, are useful to understand the claim. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Thu, Oct 11, 2012 at 11:07 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Geoff, The Atlantic article is the key to all this, and it’s getting much deserved attention. The key, I think, is a new tendency (see Stanley Fish) to think of sentences as “templates.” Form constrains, but it also enables. Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. Added to that is the notion that literacy is “taught, not caught.” Letting students enjoy what they read and write to express themselves as the CORE of the English curriculum has not produced the results that are often predicted, especially for nonmainstream students. It could very well be that students learn to love reading when they become better at it, not the other way around. But this is not simply a return to drill and grill grammar or the old fetishistic over-concern with “error.” Students learn “moves” that are available in and through the grammar. It expands the repertoire, or at least aims to. And it seems to get results. I have been using similar approaches at the college level and like the results. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2012 11:14 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: The Atlantic Writing Articles I think these articles from The Atlantic and The Chronical of Higher Education are important for ATEGers to read and comment on. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2012/10/the-writing-revolution/309090/?single_page=true http://www.theatlantic.com/debates/education http://chronicle.com/blogs/linguafranca/2012/10/11/inspiration-in-the-writing-revolution/?cid=at&utm_source=at&utm_medium=en Geoff Layton To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ -- John Chorazy English II and III, Academic and Honors Advisor, Panther Press Pequannock Township High School 973.616.6000 To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514358BCH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF644514358BCH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2012 23:27:29 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary7d7b621e406d092504cc25921d --047d7b621e406d092504cc25921d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us: Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found: 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas—words like *for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*,*or*, *yet*, and *so*. 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be un­familiar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—*but*, *because,* and *so*. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin. One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so. (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?) I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or". Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b621e406d092504cc25921d Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It appears I have a reading problem.  Craig tells us:

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b621e406d092504cc25921d-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:02:37 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143631CH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143631CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn't use routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. "Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively." I work with students from similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps overuse of "and" was one of the observations. I don't think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers' work certainly doesn't address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in the earliest years of open admission. Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take its approaches seriously. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us: Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found: 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students' sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn't? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas-words like for, and, nor, but,or, yet, and so. 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be unfamiliar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to "catch" a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts-but, because, and so. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin. One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so. (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?) I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or". Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143631CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143631CH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 08:48:31 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary7d7b344100d3fd5b04cc2d68ed --047d7b344100d3fd5b04cc2d68ed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, I started this discussion with this claim you made: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. I had no idea what that means and asked for examples of sentence-meaning relationships. How does your last response relate to this claim: “Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions [*for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*, *or*, *yet*, and *so]*. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively.” What does that mean? We have NO idea what the quiz was and NO examples of the "ineffective" sentences. Let's assume the teacher is right. What does that mean for the claim that I questions? Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Bob,**** > > I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use > routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part > of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher > devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. > To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of > students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from > similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, > having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but > I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were > finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps > overuse of “and” was one of the observations.**** > > I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our > inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work > certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier > point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in > the earliest years of open admission. **** > > Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language > is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? > If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take > its approaches seriously. **** > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > **** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us:**** > > ** ** > > Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers > found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like > "but" or "or." **** > > ** ** > > That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I > found:**** > > ** ** > > 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ > sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids > who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay > writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link > and expand on simple ideas—words like *for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*,*or*, * > yet*, and *so*. **** > > ** ** > > 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be > un­familiar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do > not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn > ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from > simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—*but*, *because,* > and *so*. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary > the way their sentences begin. **** > > ** ** > > One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples > are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the > writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers > overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college > students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. > **** > > ** ** > > In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, > because and so. **** > > ** ** > > (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can > someone give us example of such an sentence?)**** > > ** ** > > I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot > understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I > may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write > sentences with "but" or "or".**** > > ** ** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b344100d3fd5b04cc2d68ed Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig,

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b344100d3fd5b04cc2d68ed-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 09:03:21 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary7d7b621e40e2bbd004cc2d9d75 --047d7b621e40e2bbd004cc2d9d75 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, I'm sorry I didn't address this issue. I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, etc. Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that reflect not having any of those students in your classes? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Bob,**** > > I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use > routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part > of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher > devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. > To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of > students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from > similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, > having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but > I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were > finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps > overuse of “and” was one of the observations.**** > > I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our > inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work > certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier > point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in > the earliest years of open admission. **** > > Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language > is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? > If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take > its approaches seriously. **** > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > **** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us:**** > > ** ** > > Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers > found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like > "but" or "or." **** > > ** ** > > That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I > found:**** > > ** ** > > 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ > sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids > who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay > writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link > and expand on simple ideas—words like *for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*,*or*, * > yet*, and *so*. **** > > ** ** > > 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be > un­familiar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do > not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn > ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from > simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—*but*, *because,* > and *so*. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary > the way their sentences begin. **** > > ** ** > > One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples > are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the > writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers > overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college > students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. > **** > > ** ** > > In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, > because and so. **** > > ** ** > > (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can > someone give us example of such an sentence?)**** > > ** ** > > I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot > understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I > may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write > sentences with "but" or "or".**** > > ** ** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b621e40e2bbd004cc2d9d75 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig,

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b621e40e2bbd004cc2d9d75-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 16:55:54 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF64451436E5CH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF64451436E5CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, I don't know why routine conversations between you and I suddenly erupt into anger. I certainly did not intend personal attack. I said "I don't think WE have a good handle...", meaning our institutions, our shared discipline, myself included, ATEG included. Otherwise, why would we have so many dropouts? Why would so many of our students show up to college unable to read and write at a college level? Current practices, for the most part, aren't working for everyone. If your experience gives you insights on ways to improve teaching writing, please share them. I don't mean that as an attack. The problem is much bigger than you and I. When teachers like those at the New Dorp school implement approaches that change their success rate dramatically, we should take that seriously. Those approaches are similar in philosophy to those espoused by Graf and Birkenstein (They Say/I Say) and Stanley Fish. It involves much more explicit attention to how language choice contributes to the effectiveness of text. Since this is a list dedicated to supporting the teaching of grammar, this should be of interest to the list. Since we are a big tent organization, there should be room for differing approaches and different philosophies. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:03 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I'm sorry I didn't address this issue. I don't think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, etc. Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that reflect not having any of those students in your classes? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn't use routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. "Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively." I work with students from similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps overuse of "and" was one of the observations. I don't think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers' work certainly doesn't address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in the earliest years of open admission. Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take its approaches seriously. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us: Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found: 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students' sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn't? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas-words like for, and, nor, but,or, yet, and so. 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be unfamiliar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to "catch" a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts-but, because, and so. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin. One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so. (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?) I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or". Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF64451436E5CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF64451436E5CH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 12:09:48 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Robert Yates <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary7d7b344100b19b7f04cc303833 --047d7b344100b19b7f04cc303833 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig, I have no way to question the results of the program in the article. What I question is this claim: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. As best as I can tell, nothing in that article provides any evidence this claim is true. And, I suspect there are a lot of people who have insight into why students in poor high schools (in the inner city and in poor rural areas) have such low literacy skills. Bob Yates On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > Bob,**** > > I don’t know why routine conversations between you and I suddenly > erupt into anger. I certainly did not intend personal attack. I said “I > don’t think WE have a good handle…”, meaning our institutions, our shared > discipline, myself included, ATEG included. Otherwise, why would we have so > many dropouts? Why would so many of our students show up to college unable > to read and write at a college level? Current practices, for the most part, > aren’t working for everyone. **** > > If your experience gives you insights on ways to improve teaching > writing, please share them. I don’t mean that as an attack. The problem is > much bigger than you and I. When teachers like those at the New Dorp school > implement approaches that change their success rate dramatically, we should > take that seriously. Those approaches are similar in philosophy to those > espoused by Graf and Birkenstein (They Say/I Say) and Stanley Fish. It > involves much more explicit attention to how language choice contributes to > the effectiveness of text. Since this is a list dedicated to supporting the > teaching of grammar, this should be of interest to the list. Since we are a > big tent organization, there should be room for differing approaches and > different philosophies. **** > > ** ** > > Craig**** > > ** ** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:03 AM > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > ** ** > > Craig,**** > > ** ** > > I'm sorry I didn't address this issue.**** > > ** ** > > I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our > inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write.**** > > ** ** > > I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of > students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the > University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk > students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the > requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my > students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City > and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from > underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use > Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to > texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, > etc.**** > > ** ** > > Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a > handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are > students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of > literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that > reflect not having any of those students in your classes?**** > > ** ** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri**** > > ** ** > > ** ** > > On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> > wrote:**** > > Bob,**** > > I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use > routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part > of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher > devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. > To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of > students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from > similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, > having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but > I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were > finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps > overuse of “and” was one of the observations.**** > > I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our > inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work > certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier > point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in > the earliest years of open admission. **** > > Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language > is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? > If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take > its approaches seriously. **** > > **** > > Craig**** > > **** > > **** > > *From:* Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto: > [log in to unmask]] *On Behalf Of *Robert Yates > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM**** > > > *To:* [log in to unmask] > *Subject:* Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles**** > > **** > > It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us:**** > > **** > > Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers > found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like > "but" or "or." **** > > **** > > That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I > found:**** > > **** > > 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ > sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids > who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay > writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link > and expand on simple ideas—words like *for*, *and*, *nor*, *but*,*or*, * > yet*, and *so*. **** > > **** > > 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be > un­familiar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do > not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn > ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from > simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—*but*, *because,* > and *so*. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary > the way their sentences begin. **** > > **** > > One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples > are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the > writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers > overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college > students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. > **** > > **** > > In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, > because and so. **** > > **** > > (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can > someone give us example of such an sentence?)**** > > **** > > I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot > understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I > may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write > sentences with "but" or "or".**** > > **** > > Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ **** > > ** ** > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" **** > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ** ** > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b344100b19b7f04cc303833 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Craig,

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b344100b19b7f04cc303833-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 17:23:15 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143718CH1PRD0411MB420_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143718CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Bob, What the article points out is that a program which specifically gives students practice in the production of language forms makes them much better writers, even when measured by outsiders, as in Regents exams, which are graded by the state. Perhaps there are better ways to do it. We are a list dedicated to promoting more attention to grammar. This is a program that shows a direct relationship between explicit language instruction and writing improvement. They don't have a control group, but they have much better outcomes with this approach than with previous approaches. Geoff asked for reaction to the article, and I gave it high praise in part because it reinforces the value of direct grammar instruction. I hope other people on the list take the time to look at this for themselves. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I have no way to question the results of the program in the article. What I question is this claim: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can't read or write to the extent that they don't understand and can't produce those form/meaning relationships. As best as I can tell, nothing in that article provides any evidence this claim is true. And, I suspect there are a lot of people who have insight into why students in poor high schools (in the inner city and in poor rural areas) have such low literacy skills. Bob Yates On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I don't know why routine conversations between you and I suddenly erupt into anger. I certainly did not intend personal attack. I said "I don't think WE have a good handle...", meaning our institutions, our shared discipline, myself included, ATEG included. Otherwise, why would we have so many dropouts? Why would so many of our students show up to college unable to read and write at a college level? Current practices, for the most part, aren't working for everyone. If your experience gives you insights on ways to improve teaching writing, please share them. I don't mean that as an attack. The problem is much bigger than you and I. When teachers like those at the New Dorp school implement approaches that change their success rate dramatically, we should take that seriously. Those approaches are similar in philosophy to those espoused by Graf and Birkenstein (They Say/I Say) and Stanley Fish. It involves much more explicit attention to how language choice contributes to the effectiveness of text. Since this is a list dedicated to supporting the teaching of grammar, this should be of interest to the list. Since we are a big tent organization, there should be room for differing approaches and different philosophies. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:03 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I'm sorry I didn't address this issue. I don't think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, etc. Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that reflect not having any of those students in your classes? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn't use routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. "Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively." I work with students from similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps overuse of "and" was one of the observations. I don't think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers' work certainly doesn't address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in the earliest years of open admission. Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take its approaches seriously. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us: Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found: 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students' sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn't? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas-words like for, and, nor, but,or, yet, and so. 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be unfamiliar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to "catch" a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts-but, because, and so. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin. One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so. (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?) I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or". Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143718CH1PRD0411MB420_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_D20F2B3DEFA4B943834522CB0F31DF6445143718CH1PRD0411MB420_-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2012 21:44:50 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 On the "meaning" issue: Do manipulations of the extent to which a point is presented as "in play," or manipulations of the extent to which a point is foregrounded or backgrounded, count as manipulations of meaning? I can think of ways in which 'although' is quite different from 'but' or 'however', but the easiest ones to get to have to do with how the choice of one of those or another affects information flow (as per one of Craig's earlier posts). The fact that an although-clause can come first allows it to be used as a set-up, for example, in ways that 'but' or 'however' can't. I would count that as meaning, but I know that's a position that not everyone shares (to put it mildly). If you agree that that is meaning, then you're still left with the question of how important this kind of meaning is, in the context of what we're trying to teach (it could be meaning, but fairly far down the list of things that need to be considered, or it could be at the top). If it's not meaning, though, it's still… something. And it's arguably a something that we may need to consider. If we say it's not meaning, it's "zorb" (or whatever), we still end up needing to ask how important zorb is. If writing that uses both 'but' and 'although' fluently is socially assigned a higher value than writing that only uses 'but', that point has implications regardless of the category names we assign. The question of whether the although/however distinction is one of meaning doesn't necessarily have any implications for whether we need to talk about it, nor does it necessarily affect whether students' not being able to use it (if in fact they are so unable) constitutes a problem. It's more a definitional issue than anything else, although I can certainly empathize with anyone reacting negatively to what seems to them to be a definitional end-run. In one of those small-world phenomena, Stanley Fish just spoke at my institution, although he managed to do so during a section of grammar that I'm teaching and that I couldn't let go to the presentation (we were videotaping student presentations, so not very re-schedulable). From all accounts, he got lively audience participation from one of his "sentence form" exercises using an 'Even though X, Y' pattern. Of course, I'm not sure how much of that was his ability to do the "I'm Stanley Fish, and you had better want to cooperate!" routine. I can't figure out how to pull that trick off. --- Bill Spruiell From: , Craig G <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:23 PM To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Bob, What the article points out is that a program which specifically gives students practice in the production of language forms makes them much better writers, even when measured by outsiders, as in Regents exams, which are graded by the state. Perhaps there are better ways to do it. We are a list dedicated to promoting more attention to grammar. This is a program that shows a direct relationship between explicit language instruction and writing improvement. They don’t have a control group, but they have much better outcomes with this approach than with previous approaches. Geoff asked for reaction to the article, and I gave it high praise in part because it reinforces the value of direct grammar instruction. I hope other people on the list take the time to look at this for themselves. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:10 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I have no way to question the results of the program in the article. What I question is this claim: Certain kinds of sentences make certain kinds of meaning possible, and students can’t read or write to the extent that they don’t understand and can’t produce those form/meaning relationships. As best as I can tell, nothing in that article provides any evidence this claim is true. And, I suspect there are a lot of people who have insight into why students in poor high schools (in the inner city and in poor rural areas) have such low literacy skills. Bob Yates On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 11:55 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I don’t know why routine conversations between you and I suddenly erupt into anger. I certainly did not intend personal attack. I said “I don’t think WE have a good handle…”, meaning our institutions, our shared discipline, myself included, ATEG included. Otherwise, why would we have so many dropouts? Why would so many of our students show up to college unable to read and write at a college level? Current practices, for the most part, aren’t working for everyone. If your experience gives you insights on ways to improve teaching writing, please share them. I don’t mean that as an attack. The problem is much bigger than you and I. When teachers like those at the New Dorp school implement approaches that change their success rate dramatically, we should take that seriously. Those approaches are similar in philosophy to those espoused by Graf and Birkenstein (They Say/I Say) and Stanley Fish. It involves much more explicit attention to how language choice contributes to the effectiveness of text. Since this is a list dedicated to supporting the teaching of grammar, this should be of interest to the list. Since we are a big tent organization, there should be room for differing approaches and different philosophies. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 10:03 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles Craig, I'm sorry I didn't address this issue. I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. I really appreciate being told by someone who has no idea the kinds of students I have taught what I do and don't know. My TA position at the University of Illinois for six years was spent teaching writing to at-risk students who had graduated from Chicago public high schools. One of the requirements was that I had to spend 45 minutes one-on-one with each my students. For over twenty years, I have taught students from Kansas City and St. Louis public schools. However, I also have students from underfunded high schools in what is referred to outstate Missouri. I use Lee Jacobus's A World of Ideas. My students have to read and respond to texts by Emerson, Durkheim, Fromm, Benedict, Adam Smith, Marx, Galbraith, etc. Thank you for telling me with all my experience that I do not have a handle on the reading problems of students. Believe it or not there are students from underfunded rural high schools that have the same issues of literacy as students from the inner city. Does your failure to note that reflect not having any of those students in your classes? Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 8:02 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bob, I was equally surprised by the notion that students couldn’t use routine conjunctions effectively. But you are leaving out a relevant part of the text, this on page 7 of the on-line version. “Another teacher devised a quick quiz that required the students to use those conjunctions. To the astonishment of the staff, she reported that a sizable group of students could not use those words effectively.” I work with students from similar backgrounds, but on the college level. By the time they get to me, having earned high school diplomas, their problems are not that severe, but I would hesitate to say they are being dishonest about what they were finding. Nor was I trying to distort the substance of the article. Perhaps overuse of “and” was one of the observations. I don’t think we have a good handle on why so many students from our inner city schools fail to learn how to read and write. Flowers’ work certainly doesn’t address that. Shaughnessy did, but at a much earlier point in our history, with students who had found their way to college in the earliest years of open admission. Is grammar caught or taught? How much explicit attention to language is helpful for students who seem to be failing by all our current measures? If a program can successfully help those students, I think we need to take its approaches seriously. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Yates Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2012 12:27 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: The Atlantic Writing Articles It appears I have a reading problem. Craig tells us: Believe it or not, the author of the article writes that the teachers found many students couldn't write sentences with simple conjunctions like "but" or "or." That is hard to believe, so I looked at the article. Here is what I found: 1) A history teacher got more granular. He pointed out that the students’ sentences were short and disjointed. What words, Scharff asked, did kids who wrote solid paragraphs use that the poor writers didn’t? Good essay writers, the history teacher noted, used coordinating conjunctions to link and expand on simple ideas—words like for, and, nor, but,or, yet, and so. 2) The Hochman Program, as it is sometimes called, would not be un­familiar to nuns who taught in Catholic schools circa 1950. Children do not have to “catch” a single thing. They are explicitly taught how to turn ideas into simple sentences, and how to construct complex sentences from simple ones by supplying the answer to three prompts—but, because, and so. They are instructed on how to use appositive clauses to vary the way their sentences begin. One HISTORY teacher found weak students did use but or or. No examples are given. By the way, Flower, in her foundational paper on the writer-based texts and reader-based texts found that developing writers overuse AND. It is the weakest connection possible. My weakest college students use AND when a more logical connection would be more appropriate. In the 1950s children were given prompts that required them use but, because and so. (An aside: How does any sentence begin with an appositive clause? Can someone give us example of such an sentence?) I can understand why students with very weak reading ability cannot understand or use the word although. I find NOTHING in the piece (again I may have missed something) that claims these students COULDN'T write sentences with "but" or "or". Bob Yates, University of Central Missouri To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/