Dear Bruce, Craig, and Karl,
 
First, thank you for saving me embarrassment. Your distinctions helped me better describe the poem as indicative in mood (with the one exception of the relict of the subjunctive, which I had noted) but rarely tilted toward the kind of positive statement with which we associate the indicative (as WK Smart says; I could not quickly get my hands on Cambridge Grammar). The use of modal auxiliaries and hedges to qualify the speaker's stance--be it epistemic, dynamic, or deontic--is precisely what I was interested in. It was also a good caution to remember that these sentences are far from simple declaratives.
 
The poem can be read on a number of levels: pre- versus postlapsarian, Frost making use of the Eden myth to figure his love for either his wife or his secretary (whom he unsuccessfully wooed after Elinor's death). One point of interest is Jay Parini's suggestion that the source line for the poem's first line is from Hamlet : "So have I heard and do in part believe it," a line that Parini says Frost once called the most beautiful in English. The decision to alter hearing to declaring seems interesting, especially in light of David Crystal's discussion of the range of verbs, including declarations versus representatives: believe belongs to representatives, a type of verb by which “the speaker is committed, in varying degrees, to the truth of a proposition,” but declare belongs to declarations, by which “the speaker alters the external status or condition of an object or situation solely by making the utterance” (Crystal, “How Language Works” 277-78). Given Frost's larger poetics, which often explore the implicit gap between the two—the failure of the speaker to alter the external status or condition solely by making an utterance (the kind of power implicit in chant and spells that Frost toys with in “Mending Wall”) or by believing it (being committed to the proposition’s truth as in the penultimate line of “Mowing”: “The fact is the sweetest dream that labor knows” (Frost, CPPP 26)]) strikes me as relevant here, although I'll be the first to admit that the joy of reading Frost is the freedom for us to walk away with different constructions of the text.
 
Thank you for taking time out of your days to assist me and to begin a conversation about a wonderful poem!
 
Natalie

Natalie Gerber
Associate Professor, English
Secretary-Treasurer, Wallace Stevens Society
Associate Editor, Wallace Stevens Journal
phone: (716) 673-3855
email:  [log in to unmask]


On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Natalie,

I should like to comment on a few points made by Karl and Craig.  I hope they will not in any way disparage the facts they have expressed. Yet I think it is an error to consider our world as "post-mythic."

Is your impression that Frost violated his own law?  The law cannot be taken literally anyway, since "one sound" is monotonous in the sense of a single syntactic construction.  It may be a useful exercise to paraphrase his compound and complex sentences as simple sentences.  Your idea was to alter the declarative to more than just the other moods of interrogative and imperative, but also subjunctive.  As Karl mentioned, the subjunctive mood is now a relict of a number of semantic functions now carried by the modal auxiliaries in the three remaining moods.

I think that Karl's use of the term "prolapsarian garden" was appropriate for what modern culture may still value in the myths of the past.  Teachers especially should rise above the philosophy that rejects myth as a means to understanding truth.  Even modern scientists accept the kinds of myths seen in the thought experiments that Einstein created as a way to understand theoretical concepts better.  Kuhn proclaimed the whole of science as a paradigm created by scientists to replace the less useful or precise analyses of the past. I believe that myth is the domain of the poets.  Myths paint pictures to express an underlying realty not captured in the languages of mathematics.  The purpose of the arts seems ideally to give expression to some ineffable truth that the artist has become aware of.  Fables are not taken as true depictions of physical reality, but stories to teach principles of truth.  Too often the false garb of myth is its cause for rejection out of hand by the literalist. The success of drama and theater relies on the voluntary suspension of disbelief in the audience.  There the line between truth and fiction can be fine indeed.

To me Robert Frost's poem was telling us about the expressions of body language.  His use of the Garden of Eden myth to refer to origins may have lent a rather sexist tone.  Ironic it is that song birds are naturally male and human sex objects naturally female. But the functions of the limbic system in both are the same -- survival of the species.

Bruce


--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: "Hancock, Craig G" < Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2013 06:50:33 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Viral infection ? 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the following senten --1854988078-1195777549-1381944024=:37218 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?         It can be changed to , but also to . The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing? Any thoughts? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --1854988078-1195777549-1381944024=:37218 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear List,

How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?
 
      <The children could not have been said to have enjoyed themselves>

It can be changed to <The children did not enjoy themselves>, but also to <Nobody could have said that the children enjoyed themselves>. The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --1854988078-1195777549-1381944024=:37218-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 08:34:32 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Scott,
Let me venture a few suggestions based on some principles of paraphrase. 
 
I have studied R. A. Close's Reference Grammar (for ESL students) to classify many of the verbs of English by the kinds of constructions they take.  The first thing that comes to mind are the approximately eight verbs that I call propositional because they take a proposition in the form of an infinitive phrase as object: appear, be, chance, happen, look, prove, seem, and sound.  Thus we have, "It seems to be that the children enjoyed themselves."  The impersonal subject of the propositional verb may then be supplanted by that of the proposition:  "The children seem to have enjoyed themselves." 
 
There is another set of verbs which may take a projected object along with an indirect object: announce, assert, confess, confirm, declare, maintain, note, say, shout, repeat, and report.  Such verbs may be found in the passive with the projection as subject: "It was announced (to all) that the children enjoyed themselves."  If the verb of saying is passive, it is possible to make the projection an infinitive and thus blend the two constructions:  "The children were announced (to all) to have enjoyed themselves."  This is not at all possible if the deep subject of the verb of saying is not the same as the subject of the projection:  "It was confessed that the children enjoyed themselves" and "The children confessed to have enjoyed themselves" but not "*The children were confessed to have enjoyed themselves."  This excludes confess, confirm, shout, and repeat.
 
My tentative reply to your question about what the infinitive phrase is doing is that it is serving at least two funtions: reduction of a projection that becomes subject and allowing its subject to become subject of a proposition. 
 
Bruce

--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: verb characterization
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:20:24 -0700

Dear List,

How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?
 
      <The children could not have been said to have enjoyed themselves>

It can be changed to <The children did not enjoy themselves>, but also to <Nobody could have said that the children enjoyed themselves>. The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 17:39:57 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_8265417fdb464bf8ab1ea55cc11ada3fBLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_8265417fdb464bf8ab1ea55cc11ada3fBLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 QnJ1Y2UsDQogICAgSSB0aGluayB5b3XigJlyZSByaWdodC4gSSB3YXMgdHJ5aW5nIHRvIHdyZXN0 bGUgd2l0aCB0aGUgaWRlYSBvZiB0d28gZGlyZWN0IG9iamVjdHMsIG9uZSBtb3ZlZCB0byBzdWJq ZWN0IHNsb3QgaW4gdGhlIHBhc3NpdmUgc2VudGVuY2UgYW5kIHRoZSBvdGhlciBjb21pbmcgYWZ0 ZXIgdGhlIHZlcmIuIFRoZSBpZGVhIHRoYXQgaXTigJlzIGEgc3BsaXQgb2JqZWN0IG1ha2VzIHNl 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========================================================================Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 15:19:02 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary9e0102f84ac95cf504e8f4b03c --089e0102f84ac95cf504e8f4b03c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Sentences like this were all the rage in transformational linguistics in the 1970s. A derivation (skipping many steps) would have gone something like this: [X could not say [the children have enjoyed themselves] ==> (passive) [[the children have enjoyed themselves] could not be said] ==> (extraposition) [It could not be said [the children have enjoyed themselves]] ==> (infinitive) [It could not be said [the children to have enjoyed themselves]] ==> (subject raising) [The children could not be said [to have enjoyed themselves]] On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Dear List, > > How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's > really going on? > > > > It can be changed to , but also to > . The verb has > elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing? > > Any thoughts? > > Thanks, > > Scott Woods > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --089e0102f84ac95cf504e8f4b03c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sentences like this were all the rage in transformational linguistics in the 1970s. A derivation (skipping many steps) would have gone something like this:

[X could not say [the children have enjoyed themselves]  ==> (passive)

[[the children have enjoyed themselves] could not be said] ==> (extraposition)

[It could not be said [the children have enjoyed themselves]] ==> (infinitive)

[It could not be said [the children to have enjoyed themselves]] ==> (subject raising)

[The children could not be said [to have enjoyed themselves]]




On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear List,

How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?
 
      <The children could not have been said to have enjoyed themselves>

It can be changed to <The children did not enjoy themselves>, but also to <Nobody could have said that the children enjoyed themselves>. The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --089e0102f84ac95cf504e8f4b03c-- ========================================================================Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 16:05:32 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 QnJ1Y2UsDQoNCkkgY2FuIGltYWdpbmUgY29udGV4dHMgaW4gd2hpY2ggIlRoZSBjaGlsZHJlbiB3 ZXJlIGNvbmZlc3NlZCB0byBoYXZlIGVuam95ZWQgdGhlbXNlbHZlcyIgd291bGQgd29yayAoSSB0 aGluaykgoVggd2hhdCdzIG5lZWRlZCBpcyBhIGNvbnRleHQgaW4gd2hpY2ggY2hpbGRyZW4gYXJl IG5vdCBzdXBwb3NlZCB0byBlbmpveSB0aGVtc2VsdmVzIGF0IGFsbCwgYW5kIHRoZWlyIHBhcmVu dHMgYXJlIGJlaW5nIGZvcmNlZCB0byBhZG1pdCB0aGF0IHRoZWlyIGVycmFudCBvZmZzcHJpbmcg 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IHBocmFzZSBkb2luZz8NCg0KQW55IHRob3VnaHRzPw0KDQpUaGFua3MsDQoNClNjb3R0IFdvb2Rz DQoNClRvIGpvaW4gb3IgbGVhdmUgdGhpcyBMSVNUU0VSViBsaXN0LCBwbGVhc2UgdmlzaXQgdGhl IGxpc3QncyB3ZWIgaW50ZXJmYWNlIGF0OiBodHRwOi8vbGlzdHNlcnYubXVvaGlvLmVkdS9hcmNo aXZlcy9hdGVnLmh0bWwgYW5kIHNlbGVjdCAiSm9pbiBvciBsZWF2ZSB0aGUgbGlzdCINClZpc2l0 IEFURUcncyB3ZWIgc2l0ZSBhdCBodHRwOi8vYXRlZy5vcmcvDQpUbyBqb2luIG9yIGxlYXZlIHRo aXMgTElTVFNFUlYgbGlzdCwgcGxlYXNlIHZpc2l0IHRoZSBsaXN0J3Mgd2ViIGludGVyZmFjZSBh dDogaHR0cDovL2xpc3RzZXJ2Lm11b2hpby5lZHUvYXJjaGl2ZXMvYXRlZy5odG1sIGFuZCBzZWxl Y3QgIkpvaW4gb3IgbGVhdmUgdGhlIGxpc3QiDQoNClZpc2l0IEFURUcncyB3ZWIgc2l0ZSBhdCBo dHRwOi8vYXRlZy5vcmcvDQo========================================================================Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:32:21 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1399187143-1042360654-1382499141=:11632" Thanks for the help on this question, and on so many others ---1399187143-1042360654-1382499141=:11632 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, Thanks for the help on this question, and on so many others. Your support and assistance have had a profound influence on my development as a teacher and mentor. Thank you. Scott Woods On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:07 AM, "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Bruce, I can imagine contexts in which "The children were confessed to have enjoyed themselves" would work (I think) — what's needed is a context in which children are not supposed to enjoy themselves at all, and their parents are being forced to admit that their errant offspring in fact did enjoy something. I've read Puritan literature, so was primed for that kind of interpretation. My first reaction was to treat the infinitive as kind of object complement, by analogy to sentences like "We considered Harald to have met the conditions for participation" (≠ "We considered that Harald had met the conditions for participation"), which in turn seem analogous to "We considered Harald happy" -- i.e., it's the kind of object complement that denotes a quality, which can be a stative, and I'm wanting to interpret the infinitive as denoting a state. The DO elements in those can be turned into subjects via passivization, but of course the OC elements can't. Of course, that blithely ignores the fact that 'say' doesn't normally occur in [S __ DO OC] sequences, and may be papering over some of the syntactic differences by simply slapping a label on a slot. --- Bill Spruiell From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Date: Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:34 AM To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: verb characterization Scott, Let me venture a few suggestions based on some principles of paraphrase. I have studied R. A. Close's Reference Grammar (for ESL students) to classify many of the verbs of English by the kinds of constructions they take.  The first thing that comes to mind are the approximately eight verbs that I call propositional because they take a proposition in the form of an infinitive phrase as object: appear, be, chance, happen, look, prove, seem, and sound.  Thus we have, "It seems to be that the children enjoyed themselves."  The impersonal subject of the propositional verb may then be supplanted by that of the proposition:  "The children seem to have enjoyed themselves." There is another set of verbs which may take a projected object along with an indirect object: announce, assert, confess, confirm, declare, maintain, note, say, shout, repeat, and report.  Such verbs may be found in the passive with the projection as subject: "It was announced (to all) that the children enjoyed themselves."  If the verb of saying is passive, it is possible to make the projection an infinitive and thus blend the two constructions:  "The children were announced (to all) to have enjoyed themselves."  This is not at all possible if the deep subject of the verb of saying is not the same as the subject of the projection:  "It was confessed that the children enjoyed themselves" and "The children confessed to have enjoyed themselves" but not "*The children were confessed to have enjoyed themselves."  This excludes confess, confirm, shout, and repeat. My tentative reply to your question about what the infinitive phrase is doing is that it is serving at least two funtions: reduction of a projection that becomes subject and allowing its subject to become subject of a proposition. Bruce --- [log in to unmask] wrote: From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: verb characterization Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:20:24 -0700 Dear List, How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?       It can be changed to , but also to . The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing? Any thoughts? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---1399187143-1042360654-1382499141=:11632 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear List,

Thanks for the help on this question, and on so many others. Your support and assistance have had a profound influence on my development as a teacher and mentor.

Thank you.

Scott Woods


On Monday, October 21, 2013 9:07 AM, "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Bruce,

I can imagine contexts in which "The children were confessed to have enjoyed themselves" would work (I think) — what's needed is a context in which children are not supposed to enjoy themselves at all, and their parents are being forced to admit that their errant offspring in fact did enjoy something. I've read Puritan literature, so was primed for that kind of interpretation.

My first reaction was to treat the infinitive as kind of object complement, by analogy to sentences like "We considered Harald to have met the conditions for participation" (≠ "We considered that Harald had met the conditions for participation"), which in turn seem analogous to "We considered Harald happy" -- i.e., it's the kind of object complement that denotes a quality, which can be a stative, and I'm wanting to interpret the infinitive as denoting a state. The DO elements in those can be turned into subjects via passivization, but of course the OC elements can't.

Of course, that blithely ignores the fact that 'say' doesn't normally occur in [S __ DO OC] sequences, and may be papering over some of the syntactic differences by simply slapping a label on a slot.

--- Bill Spruiell

From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Date: Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:34 AM
To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
Subject: Re: verb characterization

Scott,
Let me venture a few suggestions based on some principles of paraphrase.

I have studied R. A. Close's Reference Grammar (for ESL students) to classify many of the verbs of English by the kinds of constructions they take.  The first thing that comes to mind are the approximately eight verbs that I call propositional because they take a proposition in the form of an infinitive phrase as object: appear, be, chance, happen, look, prove, seem, and sound.  Thus we have, "It seems to be that the children enjoyed themselves."  The impersonal subject of the propositional verb may then be supplanted by that of the proposition:  "The children seem to have enjoyed themselves."

There is another set of verbs which may take a projected object along with an indirect object: announce, assert, confess, confirm, declare, maintain, note, say, shout, repeat, and report.  Such verbs may be found in the passive with the projection as subject: "It was announced (to all) that the children enjoyed themselves."  If the verb of saying is passive, it is possible to make the projection an infinitive and thus blend the two constructions:  "The children were announced (to all) to have enjoyed themselves."  This is not at all possible if the deep subject of the verb of saying is not the same as the subject of the projection:  "It was confessed that the children enjoyed themselves" and "The children confessed to have enjoyed themselves" but not "*The children were confessed to have enjoyed themselves."  This excludes confess, confirm, shout, and repeat.

My tentative reply to your question about what the infinitive phrase is doing is that it is serving at least two funtions: reduction of a projection that becomes subject and allowing its subject to become subject of a proposition.

Bruce

--- [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote:

From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>

Subject: verb characterization
Date: Wed, 16 Oct 2013 10:20:24 -0700

Dear List,

How would you characterize the verb in the following sentence? What's really going on?

      <The children could not have been said to have enjoyed themselves>

It can be changed to <The children did not enjoy themselves>, but also to <Nobody could have said that the children enjoyed themselves>. The verb has elements of passive and perfect. What is the infinitive phrase doing?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---1399187143-1042360654-1382499141=:11632-- ========================================================================Date: Tue, 22 Oct 2013 20:55:28 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-1399187143-1894815798-1382500528=:53451" ---1399187143-1894815798-1382500528=:53451 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? and but not * Also, ? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---1399187143-1894815798-1382500528=:53451 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>

Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>

Thanks,
Scott Woods

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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ---1399187143-1894815798-1382500528=:53451-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 13:15:25 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_3ed9c8838c3f48a1a97ad8cc496de5c0BLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_" MIME-Version: 1.0 --_000_3ed9c8838c3f48a1a97ad8cc496de5c0BLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Scott, Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers. In "a mile long," "a mile" tells us how long it was. In "a long mile," "long" tells us the experienced duration of the mile. A similar pattern would be "a moment too soon." "A dime less" is different from "less dimes." We also have "a day later," "the space beyond," and "the path between," (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.) Great question. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? and but not * Also, ? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_3ed9c8838c3f48a1a97ad8cc496de5c0BLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Scott,

    Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers.

   In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile.

    A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.”

    “A dime less” is different from “less dimes.”

   We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.)

    Great question.

 

Craig

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

 

Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has >
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>

Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>

Thanks,
Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --_000_3ed9c8838c3f48a1a97ad8cc496de5c0BLUPR04MB482namprd04pro_-- ========================================================================Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 08:45:32 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PERJViBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6VmVyZGFuYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsgZm9udC1zaXplOjEw cHQ7Ij48RElWPlNjb3R0LDwvRElWPg0KPERJVj4mbmJzcDs8L0RJVj4NCjxESVY+VGhlcmUgYXJl IHR3byBjb25zdHJ1Y3Rpb25zIHRoYXQgZXhwbGFpbiB3aGF0IGlzIGdvaW5nIG9uLiZuYnNwOyBU aGUgPFNUUk9ORz48RU0+dGhhdDwvRU0+PC9TVFJPTkc+IG1vZGlmaWVzIDxTVFJPTkc+PEVNPm91 bmNlPC9FTT48L1NUUk9ORz4gYW5kIHRoaXMgbm91biBwaHJhc2UgbW9kaWZpZXMgdGhlIGNvbXBh 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boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0031_01CECFE8.F63CB8E0" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01CECFE8.F63CB8E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Scott, I'm about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards: Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of 'continental' influence) the president elect the Church militant, the Church triumphant The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law Best, Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Scott, Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers. In "a mile long," "a mile" tells us how long it was. In "a long mile," "long" tells us the experienced duration of the mile. A similar pattern would be "a moment too soon." "A dime less" is different from "less dimes." We also have "a day later," "the space beyond," and "the path between," (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.) Great question. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? and but not * Also, ? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01CECFE8.F63CB8E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Scott,

 

I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards:

 

Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence)

 

the president elect

 

the Church militant, the Church triumphant

 

The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law

 

Best,

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

 

Scott,

    Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers.

   In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile.

    A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.”

    “A dime less” is different from “less dimes.”

   We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.)

    Great question.

 

Craig

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

 

Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has >
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>

Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>

Thanks,
Scott Woods

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/


_____
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0031_01CECFE8.F63CB8E0-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:03 +0100 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives In-Reply-To: <003001ced00a$7d4e58e0$77eb0aa0$@edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3465458284_797703" > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3465458284_797703 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear List, Here are a few more post-positional adjectves: The Church Militant yoghurt light The House Beautiful (Bunyan) the Poet Laureate attorney-general court-martial heir apparent the Astronomer Royal a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms:  couchant, regardant, etc.) (See Touchstonešs list in As You Like It:  Œthe Retort Courteousš, etc.) Edmond Wright On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Hi Scott, > > Išm about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the > following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes > afterwards: > > Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of > Œcontinentalš influence) > > the president elect > > the Church militant, the Church triumphant > > The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law > > Best, > > Richard > > > > > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G > Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives > > Scott, > Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can > function as modifiers. > In ła mile long,˛ ła mile˛ tells us how long it was. In ła long mile,˛ > łlong˛ tells us the experienced duration of the mile. > A similar pattern would be ła moment too soon.˛ > łA dime less˛ is different from łless dimes.˛ > We also have ła day later,˛ łthe space beyond,˛ and łthe path between,˛ > (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional > phrases.) > Great question. > > Craig > > > From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods > Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives > > > Dear List, > > Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there > other types of adjective that can go after the noun? > > > > and > > > > but not > * > > Also, > > > > > > ? > > > Thanks, > Scott Woods > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the > list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > _____ > This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the > list" > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the > list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --B_3465458284_797703 Content-type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Dear List,

Here are a few more post-positional adjectves:

The Church Militant
yoghurt light
The House Beautiful (Bunyan)
the Poet Laureate
attorney-general
court-martial
heir apparent
the Astronomer Royal
a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms:  couchant, regardant, etc.)

(See Touchstone’s list in As You Like It:  ‘the Retort Courteous’, etc.)



Edmond Wright








On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Scott,
 
I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards:
 
Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence)
 
the president elect

the Church militant, the Church triumphant

The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law

Best,
 
Richard
 
 
 
 
 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

Scott,
    Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers.
   In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile.
    A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.”
    “A dime less” is different from “less dimes.”
   We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.)
    Great question.
 
Craig
 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives


Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has >
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>

Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>

Thanks,
Scott Woods
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Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --B_3465458284_797703-- ========================================================================Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 04:08:36 -0700 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 PERJViBzdHlsZT0iZm9udC1mYW1pbHk6VmVyZGFuYSwgc2Fucy1zZXJpZjsgZm9udC1zaXplOjEw cHQ7Ij48RElWPkl0IGlzIGludGVyZXN0aW5nIGhvdyBTY290dCdzIHF1ZXJ5IGFib3V0IHRoZSBj b25zdHJ1Y3Rpb24gb2YgY2VydGFpbiBub3VuIHBocmFzZXMgb2YgYW1vdW50LCB3aGljaCBvY2N1 ciBiZWZvcmUgY2VydGFpbiBhZHZlcmJzIG9mIGV4dGVudCwgZS5nLiwgLWVyLCBsZXNzLCBtb3Jl LCB0b28sIGV0Yy4sJm5ic3A7aGFzIG1pZ3JhdGVkIHRvIGxpc3RpbmcgYWRqZWN0aXZlcyZuYnNw O2luIHNpdHVhdGlvbnMgd2hlcmUgdGhleSBhcHBlYXIgYWZ0ZXIgdGhlIG5vdW4gdGhleSBtb2Rp 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Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: "Spruiell, William C" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Just one additional type of example: Huddleston and Pullum's CGEL (p. 528) notes that words like something, no one, anyone , etc. (which H&P consider 'complex determinatives') also get postmodifying adjectives frequently. (Specifically citing H&P because I had forgotten all about that kind of example until this thread spurred me to see what they said about postposed adjectives). --- Bill Spruiell From: Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Date: Friday, October 25, 2013 7:08 AM To: ATEG English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives It is interesting how Scott's query about the construction of certain noun phrases of amount, which occur before certain adverbs of extent, e.g., -er, less, more, too, etc., has migrated to listing adjectives in situations where they appear after the noun they modify. Edmond and Richard have been giving examples of noun phrases that are taken as titles or proper nouns many of which have their origins as borrowings from some stage of French in which language the attributive adjective normally occurs after the noun being modified. This latter construction does not seem to have so much to do with the adjective itself, but with the combination -- much like a compound noun. The titles taken as proper nouns are manifested in the written language with word-initial capital letters and this seems to be a rather productive construction. But most of the others seem to be frozen phrases, phrases borrowed pretty much as they were and becoming idiomatic. The fixed phrases or compounds with (relative)+-in-law are like some of the examples Craig gave that have a modifying (eliptical) prepositional phrase following as a complement, e.g., ladies in waiting. It is probably significant that the prepositions that lose their complement are historically phrases with preposition and noun, e.gg., be- (by), a- (at,on). Bruce --- [log in to unmask] wrote: From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:03 +0100 Dear List, Here are a few more post-positional adjectves: The Church Militant yoghurt light The House Beautiful (Bunyan) the Poet Laureate attorney-general court-martial heir apparent the Astronomer Royal a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms: couchant, regardant, etc.) (See Touchstone’s list in As You Like It: ‘the Retort Courteous’, etc.) Edmond Wright On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Hi Scott, I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards: Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence) the president elect the Church militant, the Church triumphant The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law Best, Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Scott, Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers. In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile. A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.” “A dime less” is different from “less dimes.” We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.) Great question. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? and but not * Also, ? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2013 21:07:09 -0400 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Richard Grant <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0001_01CED1C6.2AE89B20" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CED1C6.2AE89B20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Bruce, The migration was prompted by Scott’s second question, posted in his initial query: Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 7:09 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives It is interesting how Scott's query about the construction of certain noun phrases of amount, which occur before certain adverbs of extent, e.g., -er, less, more, too, etc., has migrated to listing adjectives in situations where they appear after the noun they modify. Edmond and Richard have been giving examples of noun phrases that are taken as titles or proper nouns many of which have their origins as borrowings from some stage of French in which language the attributive adjective normally occurs after the noun being modified. This latter construction does not seem to have so much to do with the adjective itself, but with the combination -- much like a compound noun. The titles taken as proper nouns are manifested in the written language with word-initial capital letters and this seems to be a rather productive construction. But most of the others seem to be frozen phrases, phrases borrowed pretty much as they were and becoming idiomatic. The fixed phrases or compounds with (relative)+-in-law are like some of the examples Craig gave that have a modifying (eliptical) prepositional phrase following as a complement, e.g., ladies in waiting. It is probably significant that the prepositions that lose their complement are historically phrases with preposition and noun, e.gg., be- (by), a- (at,on). Bruce --- [log in to unmask] wrote: From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:03 +0100 Dear List, Here are a few more post-positional adjectves: The Church Militant yoghurt light The House Beautiful (Bunyan) the Poet Laureate attorney-general court-martial heir apparent the Astronomer Royal a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms: couchant, regardant, etc.) (See Touchstone’s list in As You Like It: ‘the Retort Courteous’, etc.) Edmond Wright On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Hi Scott, I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards: Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence) the president elect the Church militant, the Church triumphant The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law Best, Richard From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Scott, Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers. In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile. A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.” “A dime less” is different from “less dimes.” We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.) Great question. Craig From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives Dear List, Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun? and but not * Also, ? Thanks, Scott Woods To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ _____ This email has been scanned by WAU 3-Tier Anti-Virus/Anti-Spam System. To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ------=_NextPart_000_0001_01CED1C6.2AE89B20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello Bruce,

 

The migration was prompted by Scott’s second question, posted in his initial query:

 

Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

Richard

 

 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bruce Despain
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2013 7:09 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

 

It is interesting how Scott's query about the construction of certain noun phrases of amount, which occur before certain adverbs of extent, e.g., -er, less, more, too, etc., has migrated to listing adjectives in situations where they appear after the noun they modify. 

Edmond and Richard have been giving examples of noun phrases that are taken as titles or proper nouns many of which have their origins as borrowings from some stage of French in which language the attributive adjective normally occurs after the noun being modified.  This latter construction does not seem to have so much to do with the adjective itself, but with the combination -- much like a compound noun.  The titles taken as proper nouns are manifested in the written language with word-initial capital letters and this seems to be a rather productive construction.  But most of the others seem to be frozen phrases, phrases borrowed pretty much as they were and becoming idiomatic.  The fixed phrases or compounds with (relative)+-in-law are like some of the examples Craig gave that have a modifying (eliptical) prepositional phrase following as a complement, e.g., ladies in waiting.  It is probably significant that the prepositions that lose their complement are historically phrases with preposition and noun, e.gg., be- (by), a- (at,on).   

Bruce


--- [log in to unmask] wrote:

From: Edmond Wright <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2013 11:18:03 +0100

Dear List,

Here are a few more post-positional adjectves:

The Church Militant
yoghurt light
The House Beautiful (Bunyan)
the Poet Laureate
attorney-general
court-martial
heir apparent
the Astronomer Royal
a lion rampant (and other similar heraldic terms:  couchant, regardant, etc.)

(See Touchstone’s list in As You Like It:  ‘the Retort Courteous’, etc.)



Edmond Wright








On 23/10/2013 17:11, "Richard Grant" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

Hi Scott,
 
I’m about to run off to a class, but a quick mental inventory generated the following. There are some other cases where the adjectival form comes afterwards:
 
Club Med, Team America/USA (these, among others, may be the result of ‘continental’ influence)
 
the president elect

the Church militant, the Church triumphant

The concept has certainly been around for a while: son-in-law

Best,
 
Richard
 
 
 
 
 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hancock, Craig G
Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 9:15 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: post-positional noun phrase adjectives

Scott,
    Part of the solution might come from recognizing that nouns themselves can function as modifiers.
   In “a mile long,” “a mile” tells us how long it was. In “a long mile,” “long” tells us the experienced duration of the mile.
    A similar pattern would be “a moment too soon.”
    â€œA dime less” is different from “less dimes.”
   We also have “a day later,” “the space beyond,” and “the path between,” (not sure about those last two. They seem a bit like elliptical prepositional phrases.)
    Great question.
 
Craig
 

From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Woods
Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 11:55 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: post-positional noun phrase adjectives


Dear List,

Why can adjectives of amount sometimes follow the noun they modify? Are there other types of adjective that can go after the noun?

<he has that ounce more of nerve control than a woman has >
<he has that ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
and
<he has one more ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one less ounce of nerve control than a woman has>
<he has one ounce less of nerve control than a woman has>
but not
*<he has that more ounce than a woman has>

Also,
<I want one more bite>
<I want one bite more>
<I want just one bite more>
<I ate fewer potato chips today>
<I ate three fewer potato chips today>
?<I ate three potato chips fewer today>
<Today, I ate three potato chips fewer than yesterday>

Thanks,
Scott Woods
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