Dick, you are so right! I wonder if it has to do with the syntactic role of the noun phrase (S or O)...but I agree with your judgments. Thanks for the insight Linda Linda Di Desidero, PhD Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center Marine Corps University Gray Research Center, Room 122 Quantico, Virginia 22134 703-784-4401 On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 9:17 PM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Linda, > > I agree that the two starred sentences are bad, but perhaps they are more > awkward than ungrammatical. "This is" as the opening may be to blame. I > find the following to be fine: > > The mansion of the most hated man in America, built in 1849, is now > celebrated as a world-class art museum. > > Here's one with not one but two nouns separating the participial phrase > from the noun it modifies: > > The famous statue of Shakespeare in Central Park, commissioned in > 1864, was not erected until 1872. > > I have no trouble with that one either. > > Dick > > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2013 at 8:48 AM, Linda Di Desidero < > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Just to jump in to the conversation here: I disagree with the >> grammaticality judgment that allows the participial phrase to attach to the >> first noun in the sentence--mansion--rather than the noun that is closest >> to the participial phrase (man). I see nothing wrong with having the phrase >> attach lower in the tree; in fact, it has to attach that way for me. >> Examples: >> >> This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, born in 1849. >> *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, built in 1849. >> >> This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, who was born in >> 1849. >> *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, which was built >> in 1849. >> >> Happy new year :) >> >> Linda >> >> >> Linda Di Desidero, PhD >> >> Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center >> >> Marine Corps University >> >> Gray Research Center, Room 122 >> >> Quantico, Virginia 22134 >> >> 703-784-4401 >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> Right you are, Bruce. I was just reading about Henry Clay and jumped to >>> conclusions. >>> >>> Frick may have been America's most hated man, but I always had kind >>> thoughts when visiting his mansion and art collection in NYC. >>> >>> Dick >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>wrote: >>> >>>> Dick & John, >>>> >>>> Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist, was indeed born in 1849 (December >>>> 19). >>>> Am I right to assume that the awkward noun phrase is a sentence >>>> fragment, apparently the title of an illustration or picture? >>>> The reference to "this day," however, makes me think maybe not. >>>> The adjective phrase (participle) modifying *man*, which is a part >>>> of the quotative phrase (itself another fragment), is not really a very >>>> smooth style. I think I would want to rewrite it: >>>> >>>> *The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America' (who was born >>>> on this day in 1849).* >>>> >>>> --- [log in to unmask] wrote: >>>> >>>> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> >>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>> Subject: Re: modifier placement >>>> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:23:47 -0500 >>>> >>>> There are two possible interpretations: >>>> >>>> 1) ...mansion [...man] [born...], where both phrases are modifiers of >>>> "mansion" >>>> 2) ...mansion [ [...man] [born...] ], where the first phrase modifies >>>> "mansion" and the second modifies [man] >>>> >>>> Both are grammatical, but grammaticality counts for little if the >>>> result is ambiguous and unclear. The result here is actually worse than >>>> ambiguous. Because "born" is generally used with people and not buildings, >>>> most readers are likely to assume the second reading, i.e., that Clay was >>>> born in 1849. Since this is not true (he was born in 1777), the writer has >>>> done a poor job indeed. If he had used "built" instead of "born," the >>>> problem would have been less likely to have arisen. >>>> >>>> Best holiday wishes. >>>> Dick >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, John Chorazy < >>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Happy Holidays to all... >>>> >>>> I can infer that the intent of the phrase below suggests that "the most >>>> hated man in America" (referring to Henry Clay Frick) was born "on >>>> this day" etc. But can I defend in grammatical terms that this is a >>>> misplaced modifier suggesting that the mansion was born on this day? Thank >>>> you and best wishes... >>>> >>>> >>>> *The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America,' born on this >>>> day in 1849.* >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> John Chorazy >>>> English I and III, Academic and Honors >>>> Advisor, *Panther Press* and Co-advisor, *Folio* >>>> Pequannock Township High School >>>> 973.616.6000 >>>> >>>> >>>> Noli Timere >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >>>> "Join or leave the list" >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>>> >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >>>> "Join or leave the list" >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >>>> "Join or leave the list" >>>> >>>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>>> >>> >>> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >>> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >>> "Join or leave the list" >>> >>> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >>> >> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select >> "Join or leave the list" >> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/