Dear All,
A really mind-boggling example is produced by taking the following:
This is the priest all shaven and shorn
Who married the man all tattered and torn
Who kissed the maiden all forlorn
Who milked the cow with the crumpled horn
That tossed the dog
That worried the cat
That killed the rat
That ate the malt
That lay in the house that Jack built.
This, as you see, is not in the least mind-boggling since all the subordinate clauses come successively to the right. However, if they are embedded, it comes out as follows:
The malt the rat the cat the dog the cow with the crumpled horn the maiden all forlorn the man all tattered and torn the priest all shaven and shorn married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in the house that Jack built.
With students I once for fun tried to see how may embeddings one could say and still hold on the meaning. We found that we could manage still to get a glimmer if we went as far as ‘The rat the cat the dog worried killed, ate the malt.’ One had exaggeratedly to go down in pitch at each step, try to match the pitch of each subject to its corresponding verb, and pause after ‘killed’. Start at a high pitch. It also helps to say ‘the dog worried killed’ quickly while still matching the pitch of subject and verb. We tried adding ‘the cow tossed’ after ‘dog’ but the results were doubtful!
So one has to conclude that a sentence could stretch out to infinity and still be in principle grammatical, but, nevertheless, be all too much for the human mind.
Edmond
Dr. Edmond Wright
3, Boathouse Court
Trafalgar Road
CAMBRIDGE
CB4 1DU
ENGLAND
[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Tel.: 00-44-(0)1223-350256
Mobile: 0789 44 300 26
Website: http://people.ds.cam.ac.uk/elw33/
On 29/12/2013 00:11, "Stahlke, Herbert" <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Geoffrey,
Both sentences can be generated by the rules of English syntax. The first one becomes clearer if we add a couple of “that”s:
The policeman that the boy that the dog bit called came.
It’s a case of nested relative clauses. A nesting of one is interpretable
The policeman the boy called came.
But a second nesting boggles the mind. It’s a limitation of our parsing ability, not of what’s a possible sentence.
The second sentence violates an Island Contraint on moving a relativized NP out of an embedded sentence that’s contained within a lower NP
You know the man that married who.
That sentence, as perhaps an incredulity question, could actually occur and be interpreted without difficulty. But if we front the question word, as we normally do in English, we get
Who do you know the man that married?
This conforms to the rules of English grammar, but it is uninterpretable because of the Island Constraint violation.
Obviously, one issue impeding a discussion like this is the definition of grammaticality, and there are legitimately different definitions.
Herb
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 9:21 PM
To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Dec 2013 to 26 Dec 2013 (#2013-62)
Herb,
I'm not sure how you can say that your sentences are "fully grammatical" when they don't conform to the basic structure of the language. They might consist of English words, but the order is not "fully grammatical" English as English is a word order language.
> Date: Sat, 28 Dec 2013 02:01:10 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Dec 2013 to 26 Dec 2013 (#2013-62)
> To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
>
> It is unfortunately the case that the syntactic contortions we go through in demonstrating a grammatical argument frequently produce excruciatingly awkward sentences. My favorite of the type is the fully grammatical
>
> The policeman the boy the dog bit called came.
>
> or the equally grammatical but completely unprocessable
>
> Who do you know the man that married?
>
> Herb
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Scott Catledge
> Sent: Friday, December 27, 2013 1:39 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: ATEG Digest - 25 Dec 2013 to 26 Dec 2013 (#2013-62)
>
> I find all four of the examples excruciatingly awkward.
> Built in 1849, this was the mansion of perhaps the most-hated man in America or
> The most hated man in America, perhaps, was born in this mansion in 1849.
> Scott Catledge
> P.S. I am hoping that the word American in lieu of America was merely a lapsus digitae.
> ---- ATEG automatic digest system <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > There are 5 messages totalling 1661 lines in this issue.
> >
> > Topics of the day:
> >
> > 1. modifier placement (3)
> > 2. modifier placement - HELP! (2)
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 08:48:01 -0500
> > From: Linda Di Desidero <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement
> >
> > --e89a8ff1c822e6836204ee7039a1
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > Just to jump in to the conversation here: I disagree with the
> > grammaticality judgment that allows the participial phrase to attach to the
> > first noun in the sentence--mansion--rather than the noun that is closest
> > to the participial phrase (man). I see nothing wrong with having the phrase
> > attach lower in the tree; in fact, it has to attach that way for me.
> > Examples:
> >
> > This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, born in 1849.
> > *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, built in 1849.
> >
> > This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, who was born in 1849.
> > *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, which was built in
> > 1849.
> >
> > Happy new year :)
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> > Linda Di Desidero, PhD
> >
> > Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center
> >
> > Marine Corps University
> >
> > Gray Research Center, Room 122
> >
> > Quantico, Virginia 22134
> >
> > 703-784-4401
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > > Right you are, Bruce. I was just reading about Henry Clay and jumped to
> > > conclusions.
> > >
> > > Frick may have been America's most hated man, but I always had kind
> > > thoughts when visiting his mansion and art collection in NYC.
> > >
> > > Dick
> > >
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bruce Despain <[log in to unmask]>wrote">[log in to unmask]>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Dick & John,
> > >>
> > >> Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist, was indeed born in 1849 (December
> > >> 19).
> > >> Am I right to assume that the awkward noun phrase is a sentence fragment,
> > >> apparently the title of an illustration or picture?
> > >> The reference to "this day," however, makes me think maybe not.
> > >> The adjective phrase (participle) modifying *man*, which is a part
> > >> of the quotative phrase (itself another fragment), is not really a very
> > >> smooth style. I think I would want to rewrite it:
> > >>
> > >> *The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America' (who was born on
> > >> this day in 1849).*
> > >>
> > >> --- [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] wrote:
> > >>
> > >> From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]>
> > >> To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> > >> Subject: Re: modifier placement
> > >> Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:23:47 -0500
> > >>
> > >> There are two possible interpretations:
> > >>
> > >> 1) ...mansion [...man] [born...], where both phrases are modifiers of
> > >> "mansion"
> > >> 2) ...mansion [ [...man] [born...] ], where the first phrase modifies
> > >> "mansion" and the second modifies [man]
> > >>
> > >> Both are grammatical, but grammaticality counts for little if the result
> > >> is ambiguous and unclear. The result here is actually worse than ambiguous.
> > >> Because "born" is generally used with people and not buildings, most
> > >> readers are likely to assume the second reading, i.e., that Clay was born
> > >> in 1849. Since this is not true (he was born in 1777), the writer has done
> > >> a poor job indeed. If he had used "built" instead of "born," the problem
> > >> would have been less likely to have arisen.
> > >>
> > >> Best holiday wishes.
> > >> Dick
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, John Chorazy <
> > >> [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Happy Holidays to all...
> > >>
> > >> I can infer that the intent of the phrase below suggests that "the most
> > >> hated man in America" (referring to Henry Clay Frick) was born "on this
> > >> day" etc. But can I defend in grammatical terms that this is a misplaced
> > >> modifier suggesting that the mansion was born on this day? Thank you and
> > >> best wishes...
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> *The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America,' born on this
> > >> day in 1849.*
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> John Chorazy
> > >> English I and III, Academic and Honors
> > >> Advisor, *Panther Press* and Co-advisor, *Folio*
> > >> Pequannock Township High School
> > >> 973.616.6000
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Noli Timere
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > >> "Join or leave the list"
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > >> "Join or leave the list"
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > >> "Join or leave the list"
> > >>
> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >>
> > >
> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > > leave the list"
> > >
> > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > --e89a8ff1c822e6836204ee7039a1
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> >
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">Just to jump in to the conversation here: I disagree with =
> > the grammaticality judgment that allows the participial phrase to attach to=
> > the first noun in the sentence--mansion--rather than the noun that is clos=
> > est to the participial phrase (man). I see nothing wrong with having the ph=
> > rase attach lower in the tree; in fact, it has to attach that way for me. E=
> > xamples:<div>
> > <br></div><div>This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, born =
> > in 1849.</div><div>*This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, =
> > built in 1849.</div><div><br></div><div>This is the mansion of the most hat=
> > ed man in American, who was born in 1849.</div>
> > <div>*This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, which was buil=
> > t in 1849.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Happy new year :)</div><div><br></d=
> > iv><div>Linda</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br clea=
> > r=3D"all">
> > <div><p style=3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-seri=
> > f;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Linda Di Desidero, PhD<=
> > u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:ari=
> > al,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
> > Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center<u></u><u></u></p><p style=
> > =3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:1=
> > 3px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Marine Corps University<u></u><u></u=
> > ></p>
> > <p style=3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;fon=
> > t-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Gray Research Center, Room 1=
> > 22<u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:=
> > arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
> > Quantico, Virginia 22134<u></u><u></u></p><p style=3D"margin:0px;color:rgb(=
> > 34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(=
> > 255,255,255)"><a value=3D"+17037844401" style=3D"color:rgb(17,85,204)">703-=
> > 784-4401</a></p>
> > </div>
> > <br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Dick V=
> > eit <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_=
> > blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>></span <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3c/span> > wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
> > il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
> > t:1ex">
> > <div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Right you are, Bruce. I was just reading about Henry =
> > Clay and jumped to conclusions.<br><br></div><div>Frick may have been Ameri=
> > ca's most hated man, but I always had kind thoughts when visiting his m=
> > ansion and art collection in NYC.<br>
> >
> > </div><div><br></div>Dick<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div =
> > class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bruce Despain <span=
> > dir=3D"ltr"><<a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">bd=
> > [log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>></span <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3c/span> > wrote:<br>
> >
> > <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
> > x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"font-family:Verdana,sans-serif=
> > ;font-size:10pt"><div>Dick & John,</div>
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist,=A0was indeed born in 1849 (Decemb=
> > er 19).=A0 </div>
> > <div>Am I right to assume that the awkward noun phrase is a sentence fragme=
> > nt, apparently the title of an illustration or picture?=A0 </div>
> > <div>The reference to "this day," however, makes me think maybe n=
> > ot.=A0 </div>
> > <div>The adjective phrase (participle) modifying <strong><em>man</em></stro=
> > ng>, which is a part of=A0the quotative phrase (itself another fragment), i=
> > s not really a very smooth style.=A0 I think I would want to=A0rewrite it:<=
> > /div>
> >
> >
> > <div>=A0=A0=A0<br><em>The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in Am=
> > erica' (who was born on this day in 1849).</em></div>
> > <div><em></em><br>--- <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blan=
> > k">[log in to unmask]</a">[log in to unmask]</a <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:<br><br>From: Dick Veit <<a href=3D"mail=
> > to:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3cbr%3eTo> : =
> > <a href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">ATEG@LISTSERV=
> > .MUOHIO.EDU</a><br>
> >
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement<br>Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:23:47 -0500<br=
> > ><br></div><div><div>
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">
> > <div>
> > <div>
> > <div>
> > <div>There are two possible interpretations:<br><br></div>
> > <div>1)=A0=A0 ...mansion [...man] [born...], where both phrases are modifie=
> > rs of "mansion"<br></div>
> > <div>2)=A0=A0 ...mansion [ [...man] [born...] ], where the first phrase mod=
> > ifies "mansion" and the second modifies [man]<br></div><br></div>=
> > Both are grammatical, but grammaticality counts for little if the result is=
> > ambiguous and unclear. The result here is actually worse than ambiguous. B=
> > ecause "born" is generally used with people and not buildings, mo=
> > st readers are likely to assume the second reading, i.e., that Clay was bor=
> > n in 1849. Since this is not true (he was born in 1777), the writer has don=
> > e a poor job indeed. If he had used "built" instead of "born=
> > ," the problem would have been less likely to have arisen.<br>
> >
> > <br></div>Best holiday wishes.<br></div>Dick<br></div>
> > <div><br><br>
> > <div>On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, John Chorazy <span dir=3D"ltr"><<a=
> > href=3D"mailto:[log in to unmask]" target=3D"_blank">john.chorazy=
> > @pequannock.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
> > <blockquote style=3D"BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PA=
> > DDING-LEFT:1ex">
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif">Happy Holidays to all...</div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif">I can infer that the intent of the=
> > phrase below suggests that "the most hated man in America" (refe=
> > rring to Henry Clay <span>Frick</span>) was born "on this day" et=
> > c. But can I defend in grammatical terms that this is a misplaced modifier =
> > suggesting that the mansion was born on this day? Thank you and best wishes=
> > ...</div>
> >
> >
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><em>The stunning mansion of 't=
> > he most hated man in America,' born on this day in 1849.</em></div><spa=
> > n><font color=3D"#888888">
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style=3D"FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div><br>-- <br>
> > <div dir=3D"ltr">
> > <div>John <span>Chorazy</span></div>
> > <div>English I and=A0III, Academic and Honors</div>
> > <div>Advisor, <em>Panther Press</em> and Co-advisor, <em>Folio</em></div>
> > <div><span>Pequannock</span> Township High School</div>
> > <div><a>973.616.6000</a></div>
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div>=A0</div>
> > <div><font face=3D"times new roman,serif"><span>Noli</span> <span>Timere</s=
> > pan></font></div></div></font></span></div><span><font color=3D"#888888">To=
> > join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interfac=
> > e at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_=
> > blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> > and select "J=
> > oin or leave the list"=20
> > <div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_b=
> > lank">http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> > </div></font></span></blockquote></div><br></div=
> > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web inter=
> > face at: <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=
> > =3D"_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> > and select &q=
> > uot;Join or leave the list"=20
> > <div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_b=
> > lank">http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> > </div></div></div></div><div><div>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
> > ace at:
> > <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_b=
> > lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> >
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <p>
> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
> > >http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> >
> > </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interf=
> > ace at:
> > <a href=3D"http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target=3D"_b=
> > lank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> >
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <p>
> > Visit ATEG's web site at <a href=3D"http://ateg.org/" target=3D"_blank"=
> > >http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> >
> > </p></blockquote></div><br></div>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <p>
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > --e89a8ff1c822e6836204ee7039a1--
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:13:14 +0000
> > From: Melinda Schwenk-Borrell <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement
> >
> > ------=_Part_255977_1261388877.1388077994851
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > O, LInda - grammar nerds are wonderful! But your examples make sense to me! Hope your christmas was fun. I haven't heard anything yet from UMUC, which makes this time a little angsty!
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Melinda
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Linda Di Desidero" <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]>
> > To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> > Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:48:01 AM
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement
> >
> >
> > Just to jump in to the conversation here: I disagree with the grammaticality judgment that allows the participial phrase to attach to the first noun in the sentence--mansion--rather than the noun that is closest to the participial phrase (man). I see nothing wrong with having the phrase attach lower in the tree; in fact, it has to attach that way for me. Examples:
> >
> >
> > This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, born in 1849.
> > *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, built in 1849.
> >
> >
> > This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, who was born in 1849.
> > *This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, which was built in 1849.
> >
> >
> >
> > Happy new year :)
> >
> >
> > Linda
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Linda Di Desidero, PhD
> >
> > Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center
> >
> > Marine Corps University
> >
> > Gray Research Center, Room 122
> >
> > Quantico, Virginia 22134
> >
> > 703-784-4401
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Dick Veit < [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Right you are, Bruce. I was just reading about Henry Clay and jumped to conclusions.
> >
> >
> > Frick may have been America's most hated man, but I always had kind thoughts when visiting his mansion and art collection in NYC.
> >
> >
> > Dick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bruce Despain < [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> >
> > <blockquote>
> >
> >
> > Dick & John,
> >
> > Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist, was indeed born in 1849 (December 19).
> > Am I right to assume that the awkward noun phrase is a sentence fragment, apparently the title of an illustration or picture?
> > The reference to "this day," however, makes me think maybe not.
> > The adjective phrase (participle) modifying man , which is a part of the quotative phrase (itself another fragment), is not really a very smooth style. I think I would want to rewrite it:
> >
> > The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America' (who was born on this day in 1849).
> >
> > --- [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] wrote:
> >
> > From: Dick Veit < [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] >
> > To: [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement
> > Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:23:47 -0500
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There are two possible interpretations:
> >
> >
> > 1) ...mansion [...man] [born...], where both phrases are modifiers of "mansion"
> >
> > 2) ...mansion [ [...man] [born...] ], where the first phrase modifies "mansion" and the second modifies [man]
> >
> > Both are grammatical, but grammaticality counts for little if the result is ambiguous and unclear. The result here is actually worse than ambiguous. Because "born" is generally used with people and not buildings, most readers are likely to assume the second reading, i.e., that Clay was born in 1849. Since this is not true (he was born in 1777), the writer has done a poor job indeed. If he had used "built" instead of "born," the problem would have been less likely to have arisen.
> >
> > Best holiday wishes.
> > Dick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, John Chorazy < [log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask] > wrote:
> >
> > <blockquote>
> >
> >
> > Happy Holidays to all...
> >
> >
> > I can infer that the intent of the phrase below suggests that "the most hated man in America" (referring to Henry Clay Frick ) was born "on this day" etc. But can I defend in grammatical terms that this is a misplaced modifier suggesting that the mansion was born on this day? Thank you and best wishes...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America,' born on this day in 1849.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> >
> > John Chorazy
> > English I and III, Academic and Honors
> > Advisor, Panther Press and Co-advisor, Folio
> > Pequannock Township High School
> > 973.616.6000
> >
> >
> > Noli Timere To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > </blockquote>
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > </blockquote>
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> > ------=_Part_255977_1261388877.1388077994851
> > Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > <html><head><style type='text/css'>p { margin: 0; }</style></head><body><div style='font-family: Arial; font-size: 12pt; color: #000000'>O, LInda - grammar nerds are wonderful! But your examples make sense to me! Hope your christmas was fun. I haven't heard anything yet from UMUC, which makes this time a little angsty!<br><br>Best,<br><br>Melinda<br><br><hr id="zwchr"><b>From: </b>"Linda Di Desidero" <[log in to unmask]>">[log in to unmask]><br><b>To: </b>[log in to unmask]<br><b>Sent">[log in to unmask]<br><b>Sent <mailto:[log in to unmask]> : </b>Thursday, December 26, 2013 8:48:01 AM<br><b>Subject: </b>Re: modifier placement<br><br><div dir="ltr">Just to jump in to the conversation here: I disagree with the grammaticality judgment that allows the participial phrase to attach to the first noun in the sentence--mansion--rather than the noun that is closest to the participial phrase (man). I see nothing wrong with having the phrase attach lower in the tree; in fact, it has to attach that way for me. Examples:<div>
> > <br></div><div>This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, born in 1849.</div><div>*This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, built in 1849.</div><div><br></div><div>This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, who was born in 1849.</div>
> > <div>*This is the mansion of the most hated man in American, which was built in 1849.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Happy new year :)</div><div><br></div><div>Linda</div><div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
> > <div><p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Linda Di Desidero, PhD<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
> > Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Marine Corps University<u></u><u></u></p>
> > <p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Gray Research Center, Room 122<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
> > Quantico, Virginia 22134<u></u><u></u></p><p style="margin:0px;color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><a style="color:rgb(17,85,204)">703-784-4401</a></p>
> > </div>
> > <br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 12:06 PM, Dick Veit <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>></span <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3c/span> > wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
> > <div dir="ltr"><div>Right you are, Bruce. I was just reading about Henry Clay and jumped to conclusions.<br><br></div><div>Frick may have been America's most hated man, but I always had kind thoughts when visiting his mansion and art collection in NYC.<br>
> >
> > </div><div><br></div>Dick<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 11:47 AM, Bruce Despain <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>></span <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3c/span> > wrote:<br>
> >
> > <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="font-family:Verdana,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><div>Dick & John,</div>
> > <div> </div>
> > <div>Henry Clay Frick, the industrialist, was indeed born in 1849 (December 19). </div>
> > <div>Am I right to assume that the awkward noun phrase is a sentence fragment, apparently the title of an illustration or picture? </div>
> > <div>The reference to "this day," however, makes me think maybe not. </div>
> > <div>The adjective phrase (participle) modifying <strong><em>man</em></strong>, which is a part of the quotative phrase (itself another fragment), is not really a very smooth style. I think I would want to rewrite it:</div>
> >
> >
> > <div> <br><em>The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America' (who was born on this day in 1849).</em></div>
> > <div><em></em><br>--- <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a">[log in to unmask]</a <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > wrote:<br><br>From: Dick Veit <<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>><br>To <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3cbr%3eTo> : <a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a><br">[log in to unmask]</a><br <mailto:[log in to unmask]> >
> >
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement<br>Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2013 11:23:47 -0500<br><br></div><div><div>
> > <div dir="ltr">
> > <div>
> > <div>
> > <div>
> > <div>There are two possible interpretations:<br><br></div>
> > <div>1) ...mansion [...man] [born...], where both phrases are modifiers of "mansion"<br></div>
> > <div>2) ...mansion [ [...man] [born...] ], where the first phrase modifies "mansion" and the second modifies [man]<br></div><br></div>Both are grammatical, but grammaticality counts for little if the result is ambiguous and unclear. The result here is actually worse than ambiguous. Because "born" is generally used with people and not buildings, most readers are likely to assume the second reading, i.e., that Clay was born in 1849. Since this is not true (he was born in 1777), the writer has done a poor job indeed. If he had used "built" instead of "born," the problem would have been less likely to have arisen.<br>
> >
> > <br></div>Best holiday wishes.<br></div>Dick<br></div>
> > <div><br><br>
> > <div>On Wed, Dec 25, 2013 at 7:34 AM, John Chorazy <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank">[log in to unmask]</a>>">[log in to unmask]</a>></span <mailto:[log in to unmask]>%3c/span> > wrote:<br>
> > <blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#ccc 1px solid;MARGIN:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;PADDING-LEFT:1ex">
> > <div dir="ltr">
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif">Happy Holidays to all...</div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif">I can infer that the intent of the phrase below suggests that "the most hated man in America" (referring to Henry Clay <span>Frick</span>) was born "on this day" etc. But can I defend in grammatical terms that this is a misplaced modifier suggesting that the mansion was born on this day? Thank you and best wishes...</div>
> >
> >
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><em>The stunning mansion of 'the most hated man in America,' born on this day in 1849.</em></div><span><font color="#888888">
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div>
> > <div style="FONT-FAMILY:georgia,serif"><br></div><br>-- <br>
> > <div dir="ltr">
> > <div>John <span>Chorazy</span></div>
> > <div>English I and III, Academic and Honors</div>
> > <div>Advisor, <em>Panther Press</em> and Co-advisor, <em>Folio</em></div>
> > <div><span>Pequannock</span> Township High School</div>
> > <div><a>973.616.6000</a></div>
> > <div> </div>
> > <div> </div>
> > <div><font face="times new roman,serif"><span>Noli</span> <span>Timere</span></font></div></div></font></span></div><span><font color="#888888">To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> > </div></font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: <a href="http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html" target="_blank">http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html</a <http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html%3c/a> > and select "Join or leave the list"
> > <div>Visit ATEG's web site at <a href="http://ateg.org/" target="_blank">http://ateg.org/</a <http://ateg.org/%3c/a> > </div></div></div></div><div><div>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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> > and select "Join or leave the list"
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> > </p></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
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> > ------=_Part_255977_1261388877.1388077994851--
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2013 17:14:42 +0000
> > From: Melinda Schwenk-Borrell <[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]>
> > Subject: Re: modifier placement - HELP!
> >
> > ------=_Part_255995_702183848.1388078082989
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> >
> > Oops - please do not distribute the last message to the list -- my bad - just trying to respond to LInda's post.
> >
> > Thanks, Melinda Borrell
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Linda Di Desidero" <linda.To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
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