Thanks, Karl.  I will look up the commentary you refer to.  In this case, I
don't think the focus is meant to be on "Democrats."  It is not they that
need an "excuse" but the undermining.  I think the writer is "thinking" a
gerund, as is the speaker of the other sentence I give:  "That's no excuse
for them speaking rudely."


On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> I'm not sure that it's really a matter of possessives with gerunds getting
> rare as that both forms have been in mixed use for a long time. I recommend
> the entry in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage, which gives
> an extensive history of both the construction itself and the voluminous
> commentary on the matter. It might also be worth looking at what the
> Cambridge Grammar of English has to say about the distinction between
> gerunds and participles.
>
> I do teach the possessive in front of the gerund-participle, but as a
> possibility, not as a requirement. I see it as primarily a mater of
> intended focus. Are we stressing the action (if so, use the possessive) or
> the object (if so, use the plain case)? In this instance, I find the plain
> form of "Democrats" preferable, as that's where I would put the focus. In
> other words, I read "undermining..." as a participial modifier of "Democrats"
> rather than as the head word in the object of the preposition.
>
> Karl
>
> On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Michael Kischner <[log in to unmask]>
> wrote:
>
> > Sorry about my sending troubles.  This should be readable.
> >
> > From The Economist (Feb. 22):  "Indeed, the idea that [trade deals] will
> not do much to help the economy is one excuse for Democrats undermining
> their president."  I would have written "for Democrats' undermining their
> president," but the possessive before gerunds seems to be getting rare in
> both speech and writing.  I hear a lot of "That's no excuse for them
> speaking rudely."  So in parsing such sentences, do we consider the -ing
> words to be participles modifying the preceding noun?  How many teachers
> out there still try to teach that gerunds are preceded by possessives?
>  Thanks.
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Kischner
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> at:
>      http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
>
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>

To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
     http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"

Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/