Thanks, Karl. I will look up the commentary you refer to. In this case, I don't think the focus is meant to be on "Democrats." It is not they that need an "excuse" but the undermining. I think the writer is "thinking" a gerund, as is the speaker of the other sentence I give: "That's no excuse for them speaking rudely." On Wed, Feb 26, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I'm not sure that it's really a matter of possessives with gerunds getting > rare as that both forms have been in mixed use for a long time. I recommend > the entry in the Merriam-Webster Dictionary of English Usage, which gives > an extensive history of both the construction itself and the voluminous > commentary on the matter. It might also be worth looking at what the > Cambridge Grammar of English has to say about the distinction between > gerunds and participles. > > I do teach the possessive in front of the gerund-participle, but as a > possibility, not as a requirement. I see it as primarily a mater of > intended focus. Are we stressing the action (if so, use the possessive) or > the object (if so, use the plain case)? In this instance, I find the plain > form of "Democrats" preferable, as that's where I would put the focus. In > other words, I read "undermining..." as a participial modifier of "Democrats" > rather than as the head word in the object of the preposition. > > Karl > > On Feb 26, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Michael Kischner <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > > Sorry about my sending troubles. This should be readable. > > > > From The Economist (Feb. 22): "Indeed, the idea that [trade deals] will > not do much to help the economy is one excuse for Democrats undermining > their president." I would have written "for Democrats' undermining their > president," but the possessive before gerunds seems to be getting rare in > both speech and writing. I hear a lot of "That's no excuse for them > speaking rudely." So in parsing such sentences, do we consider the -ing > words to be participles modifying the preceding noun? How many teachers > out there still try to teach that gerunds are preceded by possessives? > Thanks. > > > > > > > > Michael Kischner > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/