I agree wholeheartedly with Craig's comments about learning and language
assessment--well said, Craig!

It seems to me that the basic problem with this sentence is one of case: We
want the pronoun THEY/THEM to be in accusative case as an object of the
preposition BY but in nominative case as the 'subject' of the relative
clause.  The bad readings occur because we cannot have a single personal
pronoun in two cases at the same time. THOSE feels acceptable because it is
the same word in either accusative or nominative case.

We encounter the same problematic readings when we use HE/HIM or SHE/HER in
this context.

Linda

Linda Di Desidero, PhD

Director, Leadership Communication Skills Center

Marine Corps University

Gray Research Center, Room 122

Quantico, Virginia 22134

703-784-4401

On Mon, Jan 5, 2015 at 1:33 PM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:

> I can follow Karl's logic, but what it seems to come down to is that it's
> an error because people whose use of language matters generally say it that
> way.  My own inclination is to think the pattern of using "those" derives
> from shortening a noun phrase in which "those" functions as determiner.
> "By those people who do not approve of it" becomes "by those who do not
> approve of it." You can't use "them" as determiner (at least in standard
> English).  It's interesting that there are three passives in the sentence,
> none problematic.
> Does anyone believe for a moment that someone who sees this as an error is
> better prepared for college than someone who doesn't? Every time I look at
> these tests, I wonder whether they are doing much more harm than good.
> Whoever designs them seems to be looking for tricky little ways to catch
> people. Is our primary purpose for studying language to avoid error? What
> exactly makes an error an error, especially if usage differs? Why don't we
> test knowledge about language directly? Shouldn't we, as proponents of
> TEACHING grammar, be arguing constantly for that? Catching people on some
> obscure (and questionable) error diminishes the subject.
>
> Craig
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2015 12:51 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: SAT question
>
> This problem has nothing directly to do with who/whom (a distinction that
> the SAT does not test).
>
> You can’t just look at the single word following “by.” The object of the
> preposition is “them/those who did not approve it,” and the required word
> has to do with how it functions in this unit, which is a noun phrase headed
> by them/those.
>
> The relative clause “who did not approve it” modifies them/those. But
> “them,” as a personal pronoun, virtually always stands alone in the noun
> phrase. It doesn’t take modifiers like the relative clause. I won’t get
> into a detailed analysis of “those," as modern accounts differ from a
> traditional analysis and the differences aren’t to the point here. Suffice
> it to say that “those” isn’t a personal pronoun and doesn’t have the same
> restriction.
>
> > On Jan 5, 2015, at 9:34 AM, Jane Saral <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > A recent SAT "ID the error" question reads:
> >
> > Although it is widely regarded as a masterpiece now, when it was built
> >                             A
>       B
> >
> > the Eiffel Tower was compared to a "ridiculous smokestack" by them who
> did
> >
>                    C
> >
> > not approve of it.        No error
> >             D                       E
> >
> >
> > C just sounds wrong.  I would say "by those who did not approve of it."
> But isn't the "them/those" word the stand-alone O.P. of by, unaffected by
> the relative clause that follows?  This does not seem to be dealing with
> the who/whom question;  "who" is correctly the subject of "did not approve."
> >
> > So why is this an error?
> >
> > Jane Saral
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