There are 10 messages totaling 1076 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. The problem is(,) (7)
2. ought to/should (3)
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Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 10:19:03 -0500
From: Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: The problem is(,)
My adult ESOL students love the "Dear Abby" advice column, and I came upon
this sentence in today's column:
The problem is, I'm not attracted to him.
Should the comma be there?
Like me, I'm guessing your first response is no, since a comma between a
verb and its complement (or object) is nonstandard.
On further thought, I'm not so sure.
There are two ways of reading those words. One is with unstressed "is" and
no pause between "is" and "I'm." If the comma is omitted, a reader is
likely to assume this reading.
The sentence can also be read, however, with stress on "is" and a pause
before "I'm." The case for the comma is:
(1) A writer can't invoke this reading without the comma, and
(2) This reading is equivalent to "To my chagrin, I'm not attracted to
him"--i.e., "The problem is" could be considered adverbial, making the
comma appropriate.
What do you think?
Dick Veit,
emeritus linguistics prof and volunteer ESOL teacher
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 07:50:45 -0800
From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The problem is(,)
I vote for the comma. My reasoning is, the example uses a bare content clause (i.e., 'that' is omitted) in a circumstance where omitting the subordinator potentially creates confusion. Notice what I did in the previous sentence? I think the comma is even more necessary there, as it's much easier to read "the example" as the complement without the comma. In other words, if I omit the comma there, I risk creating a garden-path sentence.
Using the comma to avoid this misreading is parallel to using one in elliptical constructions:
Alice favors construction grammar; Bob, transformational.
What we really have are two comma rules that conflict, and we need to decide which one dominates (if I can borrow the terminology of Optimality Theory). If we say that the normal no-comma rule takes precedence over the use-commas-for-elliptical-constructions rule, then we're basically saying you cannot omit "that" in this context, which is clearly descriptively wrong. (By the way, does anyone know of an Optimality Theory study of English punctuation rules?)
> On Jan 28, 2015, at 7:19 AM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> My adult ESOL students love the "Dear Abby" advice column, and I came upon this sentence in today's column:
>
> The problem is, I'm not attracted to him.
>
> Should the comma be there?
>
> Like me, I'm guessing your first response is no, since a comma between a verb and its complement (or object) is nonstandard.
>
> On further thought, I'm not so sure.
>
> There are two ways of reading those words. One is with unstressed "is" and no pause between "is" and "I'm." If the comma is omitted, a reader is likely to assume this reading.
>
> The sentence can also be read, however, with stress on "is" and a pause before "I'm." The case for the comma is:
>
> (1) A writer can't invoke this reading without the comma, and
> (2) This reading is equivalent to "To my chagrin, I'm not attracted to him"--i.e., "The problem is" could be considered adverbial, making the comma appropriate.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Dick Veit,
> emeritus linguistics prof and volunteer ESOL teacher
> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 16:58:04 +0000
From: "Hancock, Craig G" <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The problem is(,)
If you do a search on COCA, you come up with 8544 entries, many of them sentence opening. When we have this kind of frequency of use, it's fair to say that it's a construction and may have developed meanings and functions AS A UNIT that are separate from its component syntax. If I write "the problem is Charlie," then the sentence is straightforward. But if I write "The problem is, Charlie is stupid," then "the problem is" can be seen as a thematic opening to a statement about Charlie. (Similar to Dick's "to my chagrin," or even "unfortunately.")
I haven't the time to do a full analysis, but there does seem to be a pattern. When "that" is included, no comma. When "that" is left out, the comma is routine.
Here's an example from Cosmopolitan (the first on the list): "The problem is, if we look at the summer and the trajectory is up, he..."
This one is from the New York Times: "The problem is, it isn't easy politically to make a 180 degree turn."
Another from fiction: "The problem is, the murderers have snatched one of our people."
The structure ("the problem is" plus comma as sentence opener) seems common in respectable places.
Craig
----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karl Hagen
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 10:51 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: The problem is(,)
I vote for the comma. My reasoning is, the example uses a bare content clause (i.e., 'that' is omitted) in a circumstance where omitting the subordinator potentially creates confusion. Notice what I did in the previous sentence? I think the comma is even more necessary there, as it's much easier to read "the example" as the complement without the comma. In other words, if I omit the comma there, I risk creating a garden-path sentence.
Using the comma to avoid this misreading is parallel to using one in elliptical constructions:
Alice favors construction grammar; Bob, transformational.
What we really have are two comma rules that conflict, and we need to decide which one dominates (if I can borrow the terminology of Optimality Theory). If we say that the normal no-comma rule takes precedence over the use-commas-for-elliptical-constructions rule, then we're basically saying you cannot omit "that" in this context, which is clearly descriptively wrong. (By the way, does anyone know of an Optimality Theory study of English punctuation rules?)
> On Jan 28, 2015, at 7:19 AM, Dick Veit <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> My adult ESOL students love the "Dear Abby" advice column, and I came upon this sentence in today's column:
>
> The problem is, I'm not attracted to him.
>
> Should the comma be there?
>
> Like me, I'm guessing your first response is no, since a comma between a verb and its complement (or object) is nonstandard.
>
> On further thought, I'm not so sure.
>
> There are two ways of reading those words. One is with unstressed "is" and no pause between "is" and "I'm." If the comma is omitted, a reader is likely to assume this reading.
>
> The sentence can also be read, however, with stress on "is" and a pause before "I'm." The case for the comma is:
>
> (1) A writer can't invoke this reading without the comma, and
> (2) This reading is equivalent to "To my chagrin, I'm not attracted to him"--i.e., "The problem is" could be considered adverbial, making the comma appropriate.
>
> What do you think?
>
> Dick Veit,
> emeritus linguistics prof and volunteer ESOL teacher To join or leave
> this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"
> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2015 12:23:46 -0500
From: John Chorazy <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: The problem is(,)
This reminds me of the double "is" construction (ISIS) that has become so
prevalent, from the President down...
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Hancock, Craig G <[log in to unmask]>
wrote:
> If you do a search on COCA, you come up with 8544 entries, many of them
> sentence opening. When we have this kind of frequency of use, it's fair to
> say that it's a construction and may have developed meanings and functions
> AS A UNIT that are separate from its component syntax. If I write "the
> problem is Charlie," then the sentence is straightforward. But if I write
> "The problem is, Charlie is stupid," then "the problem is" can be seen as a
> thematic opening to a statement about Charlie. (Similar to Dick's "to my
> chagrin," or even "unfortunately.")
> I haven't the time to do a full analysis, but there does seem to be a
> pattern. When "that" is included, no comma. When "that" is left out, the
> comma is routine.
> Here's an example from Cosmopolitan (the first on the list): "The
> problem is, if we look at the summer and the trajectory is up, he..."
> This one is from the New York Times: "The problem is, it isn't easy
> politically to make a 180 degree turn."
> Another from fiction: "The problem is, the murderers have snatched one
> of our people."
> The structure ("the problem is" plus comma as sentence opener) seems
> common in respectable places.
>
> Craig
>
> ----Original Message-----
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ ========================================================================Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:29:51 -0500 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Nick Carbone <[log in to unmask]> Subject: NY Times reviews grammar apps Comments: To: Conference on Basic Writing <[log in to unmask]>, Writing Center Mailing List <[log in to unmask]>, Writing Program Administration <[log in to unmask]>, techrhet <[log in to unmask]> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary7d7b66f93bc04714050dcc288f Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> --047d7b66f93bc04714050dcc288f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 time to play . . . http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/29/technology/personaltech/video-feature-english-grammar-aids-for-both-native-speakers-and-students.html -- nick.carbone at gmail dot com http://ncarbone.blogspot.com To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b66f93bc04714050dcc288f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
time to play . . .To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list"Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ --047d7b66f93bc04714050dcc288f-- ========================================================================Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2015 17:40:43 +0000 Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> Sender: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar <[log in to unmask]> From: Beth Young <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: NY Times reviews grammar apps In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_55FC7F9CBCF2B44E97E2F3FB9EDB9134556E0B0BNET5011netucfed_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> --_000_55FC7F9CBCF2B44E97E2F3FB9EDB9134556E0B0BNET5011netucfed_ Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 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Krahn" <[log in to unmask]> Subject: The problem is . . . In-Reply-To: <[log in to unmask]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Message-ID: <[log in to unmask]> The problem with "The problem is" is that it could be a colon situation. "The problem is: I'm not attracted to him." Putting a comma after "is" sends us back a few centuries to rhetorical punctuation. (Yes, I know, there are still some advocates for rhetorical punctuation around, but they may not last forever, I hope.) "The problem is, I'm not attracted to him." This amounts to a fragment and a sentence, which makes no sense at all where the uses of the comma are concerned. Today, the thing looks like an ungrammatical orthographic sentence. Yes, the writer was rather lazy and could have written it using a commplementizer. "The problem is that I'm not attracted to him." But the colon would provide an altermantive way of dealing with it and also provide more focus on the full sentence. Albert E. Krahn, PhD University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee [log in to unmask] www.punctuation.org [log in to unmask] To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/