This message was originally submitted by [log in to unmask] to the ATEG list Thomas, Yes, but the problem is that "those who believe that grammar (metalanguage issues) ought to be taught only in elective courses, where the student decides whether to study it" are conversing with those of us who disagree. Doesn't this mean that the comments of the former are largely irrelevant to those of us in the latter group? And wouldn't it be helpful if we know who is in which group? I found, for example, the discussion of "horse" in "the horse barn" interesting, but also irrelevant to my teaching. I have argued before that one of the main problems in the current teaching of grammar (middle and high school) is that it gets tied up in such discussions and never gets to the analysis of texts and larger structures. Too many trees, no forest. Thanks, Ed V. [This message was originally submitted by [log in to unmask] to the ATEG list] Ed Vavra's question, asking how we identify those to whom we teach grammar: a) it is not a problem for those who believe that grammar (metalanguage issues) ought to be taught only in elective courses, where the student decides whether to study it; b) start wherever you believe students should start and end. If 3-graduate school, 1-life, or 3-8 (which is the most common in schools), then one can specify. What we can't do, I think, is assume that everyone believes the same about it. Yes?