[This message was originally submitted by [log in to unmask] to the ATEG list ] I apologize for so many posts, but I'm cleaning up after the semester and will be away from my mail for a while. Bill Murdick is, of course, right when he says that it is easy to test the effectiveness of teaching grammar. (See below.) The problem is -- what difference does it make if students can identify prepositional phrases? Identification for itself is not, from my perspective, a worthy objective. A better objective would be, for example, to see if, having learned how to identify such phrases, those students who make s/v agreement errors by making the verb agree with the object of a preposition, can use their new knowledge to edit and correct their own mistakes. Such research is a lot more difficult to handle. In addition, most of the anti-grammar research is based on lengthy, and time-consuming, statistical studies. As I think I have noted on this list, my critique of much of that research is now available at httP://www.sunlink.net/rpp in the Teachers' Section. Because there has been a lot of discussion of the research, particularly on NCTE-Talk, I'm planning to spend much of my upcoming break working on the "Research" Section of my "on-line" grammar course. In addition to several documents on the theory, etc., I will be making available my analysis of about fifth essays written by college Freshmen. The essays are about sexual harassment and make interesting reading in themselves (if you want to know how college Freshmen think). Merry Christmas to everyone on this list. I really enjoy the discussions. Ed V. >>> Jim Dubinsky <[log in to unmask]> 12/10/97 12:01pm >>> This message was originally submitted by [log in to unmask] to the ATEG list From Bill Murdick: I will check out Ed Vavra's web site when I get through this semester, but for the moment I cannot understand why testing your own teaching methods is so complicated. If you are asking elementary students to identify prepositional phrases in passages (e.g. in the park; along with the others; via M Street; to whoever is ready; besides you and anyone else similarly experienced), then all you have to do is ask students to identify the prepositional phrases in a passage at the beginning of the year, and then see how many they can identify in that same passage at the end of the school year. (Of course, if you wanted to get scientific you would use two passages in both sessions, half the students reading passage 1 at the beginning and 2 at the end, and half the students reading passage 2 at the beginning and 1 at the end). If the students can identify a significantly larger number in the post-test, you have the beginning of a basis for claiming that the students are learning the grammar. The next step would be to re-test them at the beginning of the next year (after 3 months of vacation) to see if the learning is retained.