Scott,
    I think those are great questions. I think language itself is a
natural phenomenon and definitions need to respect the complexity of
that living world. I believe that language exploration should be very
much at the heart of English studies and that having a shared language
to talk about that is very useful and natural. It seems to me very
strange that so many
English teachers disparage knowledge about language, even on a list like
this one.
   It might be fun to look at words that a good dictionary calls "noun"
and then ask students to describe the range of what they name. Some
nouns can be counted and some can't. Is there some pattern there? Does
it make sense to call anything that "modifies" a noun an adjective or
are the words that do that sometimes very different from each other?
What does it mean to "modify" a noun? What kinds of meaning are
involved with that? What kinds of meaning do pronouns stand in for?
    I'm not sure what's being taught throughout the country, but when my
students come to college, most of them from New York high schools,
they know almost nothing about language. They seem not to have had ANY
exposure to terms like "phrase" and "clause." They may be able to give
definitions for "simile" or "hyperbole" (or at least have memory of
being taught them), but they seem genuinely perplexed by "preposition"
or "phrase" or "clause." If something is "literary," it gets taught.
If it's a natural part of language (as metaphor and hyperbole are, but
that's another argument) it is not taught.
    Geoff's point-of-view--that acquiring a language simply happens and
there is no value in exploring the nature of that language--is
widespread. I couldn't disagree with it more.

Craig


 I am not suggesting that drilling students on grammar definitions is a
> particularly effective or worthwhile endeavor.  Nor am I suggesting that
> the
> definitions I put forward for comment make sense or are useful. I
> presented them
> precisely because I wanted comments on how to improve them.
>
> Sensory concepts (e.g., red, up, getting steeper, the taste of citric
> acid)
> don't need definitions, just examples and non-examples.  A basic initial
> teaching sequence includes demonstrating or pointing out several
> examples of the
> concept and naming it as that concept, demonstrating or pointing out
> non-examples and naming it as not the concepts, then interspersing
> these to show
> the difference and asking students to identify whether the example is in
> the
> concept or not.  Higher order concepts (e.g., right triangle, democracy,
> stanza)
> are often best taught using both a definition and sets of examples and
> non-examples.  One basic initial teaching procedure is to give the
> definition,
> give several examples, explaining how they fit the definition, give
> several
> non-examples, explaining how they don't fit the definition, then have
> students
> discriminate between examples and non-examples, referring to the
> definition to
> prove whether the example fits the concept. 
>
>
> Regarding grammatical concepts, are they more like sensory concepts or
> like
> higher order concepts? It seems to me that these are higher order
> concepts.  Is
> teaching about language (not teaching the use of language, but about it)
> so
> fundamentally different from teaching every other type of higher order
> concept
> that definitions are of no use? Or are the definitions of what we are
> teaching
> necessarily so fuzzy and imprecise, because of the nature of the concepts,
> that
> teaching definitions will confuse more than explain? Are there useful
> definitions that fit the instructional needs of young learners, even if
> they do
> not fit the analytical requirements of those who understand the subject
> deeply? 
>
>
> Scott Woods
>  
> Drilling students on grammar definitions that make so sense is, quite
> simply,
> senseless with or without the NCTE and their resolution.
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
>  
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Geoffrey Layton <[log in to unmask]>
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Sent: Fri, November 5, 2010 12:24:54 PM
> Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> Date: Fri, 5 Nov 2010 13:51:58 +0000
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
> The 1985 NCTE resolution was a disaster.
>
>
> Carl Roberts
>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
> [[log in to unmask]] on
> behalf of Geoffrey Layton [[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Friday, November 05, 2010 9:38 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: grammar term definitions
>
>
> OMG, my condolences to the students. Before you impose this list on the
> students, why not give a little quiz to the faculty (everybody, not just
> English
> department) and see how everybody does. My contention is that everybody
> already
> knows how to use all of these terms so why bother to teach the formal
> definitions, many of which make no sense to begin with?  How many of your
> students would say "I put the pen the table"? Since everyone would say, "I
> put
> the pen on the table," everyone already knows what a preposition is;
> similarly,
> they know what the object is - "I put the pen on" is not really a
> construction
> that anyone would say; and a prepositional phrase is well-known to all -
> "I put
> the pen" wouldn't be possible for most students. This is what the 1985
> NCTE
> resolution was mean to avoid!
>
> Geoff Layton
>
>
>  
> ________________________________
> Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 21:26:02 -0700
> From: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: grammar term definitions
> To: [log in to unmask]
>
>
> Dear List,
>
> My department is putting together a set of definitions to be used to
> introduce
> grammar concepts in fifth through eighth grades.  Any thoughts on these
> so far?
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Woods
>
> appositive a noun that further explains (identifies or renames) another
> noun or
> pronoun nearby
>
> clause a group of related words that contains a verb and its subject
> clause, adverb a dependent clause that functions as an adverb
> clause, dependent (subordinate) a clause that does not express a complete
> thought and cannot stand alone
>
> clause, independent (main) a clause that expresses a complete thought and
> can
> stand alone
>
> clause, noun a dependent clause that functions as a noun
> clause, relative a dependent clause that functions as an adjective
> object, direct a noun or pronoun that directly receives the action of the
> verb
> (ask: “[verb] + whom or what?”)
>
> object, indirect a noun or pronoun that indirectly receives the action of
> the
> verb (ask: “[verb] + to whom or what?”)
>
> object, prepositional a noun or pronoun that a preposition relates to
> another
> part of the sentence (ask: “[preposition] + whom or what?”)
>
> parallelism the use of corresponding syntactic construction in
> corresponding
> phrases or clauses
>
> parts of speech eight categories of words or groups of words that perform
> different grammatical functions
>
> part of speech, adjective modifies a noun or pronoun
> part of speech, adverb modifies a verb, an adjective, or another adverb
> part of speech, conjunction connects words or groups of words
> part of speech, interjection expresses strong emotion and is not
> grammatically
> related to the rest of the sentence (or: can stand alone)
>
> part of speech, noun names a person, place, thing, or idea (including
> actions
> and qualities)
>
> part of speech, preposition expresses a relation between a noun or pronoun
> and
> another part of the sentence
>
> part of speech, pronoun substitutes for a noun
> part of speech, verb expresses an action, occurrence, or state of being
> phrase a group of related words that does not contain a verb and its
> subject
> phrase, absolute a phrase that consists of a noun or pronoun and its
> modifiers,
> and adds to the meaning of an independent clause without modifying any
> particular word
>
> phrase, appositive a phrase that consists of an appositive and its related
> words
>
> phrase, gerund a phrase that consists of a gerund and its related words
> phrase, infinitive a phrase that consists of an infinitive and its related
> words
>
> phrase, participial a phrase that consists of a participle and its related
> words
>
> phrase, prepositional a phrase that consists of a preposition, its object,
> and
> the object’s modifiers
>
> phrase, verbal a phrase that consists of a verbal and its related words
> predicate, complete the verb phrase and its modifiers and objects
> sentence type, complex a sentence that consists of one independent clause
> and
> one or more dependent clauses
>
> sentence type, compound a sentence that consists of two or more
> independent
> clauses and no dependent clauses
>
> sentence type, compound-complex a sentence that consists of two or more
> independent clauses and one or more dependent clauses
>
> sentence type, simple a sentence that consists of one independent clause
> and no
> dependent clauses
>
> sentence, declarative a sentence that expresses a statement
> sentence, exclamatory a sentence that expresses an exclamation
> sentence, imperative a sentence that expresses a command
> sentence, interrogative a sentence that expresses a question
> subject, complete the simple subject and its modifiers
> subject, simple a noun or pronoun that performs a verb phrase
> subject complement a word that follows a linking verb and adds to the
> meaning of
> the subject
>
> subject complement, predicate adjective a subject complement that is an
> adjective
>
> subject complement, predicate nominative a subject complement that is a
> noun
> verb, auxiliary a verb that adds meaning to another verb
> verb, intransitive a verb that does not require a direct object (to
> complete its
> meaning)
>
> verb, linking a verb that links a subject to a subject complement
> verb, transitive a verb that requires a direct object (to complete its
> meaning)
> verbal a word that is derived from a verb but functions as another part of
> speech
>
> verbal, gerund a verbal that ends in -ing and functions as a noun
> verbal, infinitive a verbal that consists of “to” plus a verb and
> functions as a
> noun, adjective, or adverb
>
> verbal, participle (present and past) a verbal that regularly ends in -ing
> (present) or -ed (past) and functions as an adjective
>
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