Janet,
In my dialect area, we have baby showers "on" Mary, or Jill, or somebody else. Some say "of the morning" rather than "in the morning."
I don't think in terms of "correct" or "incorrect." I think more in terms of "appropriate" for the situation or context.
I hear "you guys" more and more. I once went to a meeting to discuss sexual equity that opened with the leader says, "Could I have you guys' attention?"
One linguist says that "you all" occurs mainly where slavery existed, but I heard a "you-all" in northern Minnesota this summer, so it appears to be moving northward as many have observed.
Marshall
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Castilleja, Janet
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 3:00 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Some gramatical red meat
Hello
A lot of my students now write 'embarrassed of' rather than 'embarrassed about,' which sounds more correct to my ear. Do you folks see this? (My dialect doesn't have good plural 'you' form. I'm never sure what to say. 'You guys' seems a little informal for this list, and I've also been criticized for seeming to exclude women.)
Janet
Janet
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of STAHLKE, HERBERT F
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 7:34 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Some gramatical red meat
Julie,
Here's the OED on "up" as a verb. I left out some 16th c. archaic uses having to do with hunting swans, a late 19th c. nautical usage, and intransitive usages. You'll notice they're all 20th c., starting in 1915, and are either "chiefly US" or labeled colloquial. Any usage less than a century old is likely to still be in dispute.
Herb
5. a. Cards. To raise (a bid, stake, etc.). Cf. RAISE v.1 34a. Also transf. Chiefly U.S.
1915 Munsey's Mag. Apr. 488/1 I'd 'a' upped it till the hot place froze over! Ibid. 489/1 I'll up that! the old man was saying. 1942 BERREY & VAN DEN BARK Amer. Thes. Slang §746/3 Raise, go (it) one (or more) better, hike, press, up. 1984 Listener 3 May 16/1 Some competitors see it as his way of upping the ante.
b. To increase or raise (prices, production, mechanical power, etc.). colloq. (orig. U.S.).
1934 Amer. Speech IX. 76/1 In Birmingham on September 17, Dr. Sterling J. Foster..warned his hearers that 'if a certain fatal mistake is made, taxes will be upped on every house in the city'. 1943 Sun (Baltimore) 1 Dec. 9/3 (heading) Shot of water ups engine power. 1953 W. BURROUGHS Junkie xi. 116 You can only buy P.G. so often, or the druggist gets wise. Then he packs in, or ups the price. 1957 WODEHOUSE Over Seventy viii. 94 These negotiations are better left to one's agent. I have instructed mine to arrange for a flat payment of ten guineas, to be upped, of course, if they want to know what I had for dinner at that amusing château in the wine country. 1969 Daily Tel. 16 Apr. 23/2 This 28 per cent. increase now ups the annual bill of the trade from £36 million to about £47 million. a1974 R. CROSSMAN Diaries (1975) I. 108 I'd talked this over with the Dame before lunch and cautiously suggested that we should make our target 135,000 houses... Harold immediately upped me to 150,000. 1978 G. A. SHEEHAN Running & Being x. 135 Athletes upped their practice time fivefold.
c. To promote in rank. colloq.
1945 H. BROWN Artie Greengroin 182 Someday that mess sergeant is going to fill the Spam full of arsenic and knock off the whole company for a laugh. The day he does that they'll probably up him to tech. 1970 G. F. NEWMAN Sir, You Bastard iii. 111 Both the detectives' names and ranks were correct; neither was upped to DCS. a1974 R. CROSSMAN Diaries (1975) I. 609 Harold Wilson breezed up and said 'Meet your new Lord President.'..They were astonished that Harold had upped me into the stratosphere.
d. To improve, to 'boost'. colloq.
1968 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 17 Feb. 28 You can up your morale all so easily. 1976 Daily Express 29 June 5/4, I did make a perfunctory attempt to up my image by purchasing chic glasses.
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Nichols
Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 2010 9:33 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Some gramatical red meat
Here's another pet peeve: "up" instead of "raise." "Let's up your levels of pain meds," "I wanted to up the chances of getting to college," and so on. I've seen this in print and in public discourse. I know "up the ante," but to see "up" become a verb meaning "raise" just ups my ire!!
While I'm here let me say thank you for many interesting and thoughtful posts lately. You've instructed me well in the history of English, the teaching of grammar/usage, and the culture of this very listserv. Like some of you, I save these posts to my hard drive to refer to them later--and I look forward to meeting some of you in person at BYU next month.
Julie
Julie J. Nichols, Ph.D.
Associate Professor
Department of English and Literature
Utah Valley University MS 153
800 West University Parkway
Orem UT 84058
801-863-6795
>>> "Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> 08/18/10 7:09 AM >>>
Okay, since we're on pet peeves, how about this one: "X is based off of Y"
instead of "based on?" It drives me nuts, but I'm not sure that it has to do with 'grammar' instead of just a question of usage. Usage seems to be loosely based on logic, but not very solid logic sometimes. Also, we've discussed in past postings the many problems with prepositions in student writing.
I usually try to get students to repair this particular issue by saying something like "One word is better than two" - echoing Orwell. My admonitions rarely, however, have much effect on student writing.
Paul D.
"If this were play'd upon a stage now, I could condemn it as an improbable fiction" (_Twelfth Night_ 3.4.127-128).
________________________________
From: Joseph McKibban <[log in to unmask]>
To: [log in to unmask]
Sent: Wed, August 18, 2010 1:28:16 AM
Subject: Some gramatical red meat
One of my pet peeves is when I hear people use "plan on" instead of "plan
to." One example would be: "If you plan on attending, arrive early," instead of
the correct "If you plan to attend, arrive early." I hear it more and more on
television and radio (no surprise there), but I am now reading it in
newspapers.
The way that I explain it to my high school students is as follows: "on
attending" is a prep phrase which can be an adj. or an adv., but not a noun,
which is needed as the direct object of the transitive verb "plan." Conversely,
the infinitive phrase "to attend" may be used as the direct object noun that is
needed here.
Well, have at it; I can take it. At least it has nothing to do with the past
perfect tense!
Bud McKibban
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