Gosh, your students KNOW what passive is?
::sigh::
Alice Ann
>>> "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]> 5/18/2007 9:16 am >>>
Geoff,
I'd rather take students through decent writing, like good
journalistic
writing, and let them see how much passive actually gets used and used
well enough that it escapes notice, as our grammatical choices should
if
they are well made. The problem is not one of teaching them passive
voice as teaching them to manage old vs. new information. Passive is
just one tool we use to do this.
What's remarkable on this topic is how few teachers even know what a
passive is, something I've found when I look at how they mark papers.
Typically, any sentence that doesn't start with a clear agent as
subject
might get called passive. So "Jack turned the covers down" would be
active, but "Jack fell asleep" would be considered passive. This
happens even more commonly with verbs that reverse the agent/patient
roles, like "receive", as in "Jack received an award from the festival
committee." It's not passive, but it's treated as if it's the same as
"Jack was given an award by the festival committee." By the way,
notice
my own passive in the "but" clause, a passive that's forced by
information structure and would probably pass the eye of most readers
unnoticed.
Herb
-----Original Message-----
From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Geoffrey Layton
Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 9:36 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Myth "rules" (digression from historical present)
Herb and Nancy -
As "wrong" as these rules are, they still can serve a purpose. While
clearly wrong, the "never use a passive voice" rule does provide a
structure
that novice writers can follow. I'm not sure that teaching the passive
voice, with all its strengths and weaknesses, is a worthwhile goal for
beginning writers. Similarly the "topic sentence" rule provides novice
writers with structure as they struggle to compose. Instead of the
"grammar
rules that aren't," how about a book that explains to teachers how and
why
the "non-rules" are supposed to help. Sometimes I think we forget how
difficult writing is for students who are not familiar with writing
conventions, particularly the conventions of academic writing.
Geoff Layton
>From: "Stahlke, Herbert F.W." <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
><[log in to unmask]>
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Myth "rules" (digression from historical present)
>Date: Fri, 18 May 2007 09:14:51 -0400
>
>A couple more such rules are "Never use passive voice" and "Put the
>topic sentence at the beginning of the paragraph."
>
>
>
>Maybe we could inveigle NCTE into publishing a book titled "Grammar
>rules that aren't"?
>
>
>
>Herb
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nancy Tuten
>Sent: Friday, May 18, 2007 7:25 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Myth "rules" (digression from historical present)
>
>
>
>When I read Phil's comment, I imagined that he had encountered a
>frustrated teacher deciding that if students wouldn't (appropriately)
>use the historical present tense, that at least he or she could
insist
>that they stick to a single tense . . .
>
>
>
>I have thought about compiling a list of "rules" students internalize
>from teachers who are just trying to keep them from making a certain
>kind of mistake. Here are two examples:
>
>
>
>(1) Teachers in middle school and high school who are trying to get
>their student writers to develop paragraphs more effectively will ask
>them to have a minimum of eight (or fill in the number of your
choice)
>sentences in each paragraph. Students then come to college believing
>that every paragraph must include eight sentences.
>
>
>
>(2) Because many young students create sentence fragments with
>"because" clauses, elementary and middle-school teachers will tell
them
>never to start a sentence with "because." Then they come to college
>still believing that they should never start a sentence with
"because."
>And the same logic applies to their belief that they should never
start
>sentences with "and" or "but" or any of the coordinating conjunctions
>when we all know that professional writers do so all the time.
>
>
>
>Nancy
>
>
>
>
>
>Nancy L. Tuten, PhD
>
>Professor of English
>
>Director of the Writing-across-the-Curriculum Program
>
>Columbia College
>
>Columbia, South Carolina
>
>[log in to unmask]
>
>803-786-3706
>
>________________________________
>
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English Grammar
>[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cynthia Baird
>Sent: Thursday, May 17, 2007 10:44 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: Literary present
>
>
>
>I have tried to follow this thread for the past several days, and I
have
>appreciated the numerous suggestions that have been offered for
>something I, too, struggle with. Countless times I have written on
>papers "discuss literature in the present tense"! Sadly, I have no
new
>teaching ideas to offer you, Paul. I do know this--eventually
students
>make progress. I have the pleasure of "looping," meaning I teach
>students for two or more years in a row, and what I despaired of for
my
>sophomores finally materializes in my seniors!
>
>
>
>I have not seen a response to Phil's comment that some time ago it
was
>acceptable to write in either the present or past tense when
discussing
>literature. Could someone, preferably a college instructor since
that
>is whom I prepare my students for, respond to this comment?
>
>
>
>thanks for all your professional insights on this listserve!
>
>
>
>
>
>"Paul E. Doniger" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
>
>
> I'm looking for advice: This year, many of my high school
>sophomores seem unable (unwilling?) to write about literature in the
>present tense. They discuss events in a novel, story, etc., only as
past
>tense events. For example, a student wrote in one of his journals for
>Brave New World: "Bernard was with Lenina when he met John, the
Savage."
>How can I get students to think in the present and write "Bernard is
...
>he meets" instead? Has anyone else struggled with this problem? I'm
>looking for teachable moments, here.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Paul
>
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